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"A beautiful story of faith and unquestioning love..." (i.imgur.com)
submitted 10 months ago by RollerDerby88
[–]foamingpipesnake 26 points27 points28 points 10 months ago
"chance of at a second life"
[–]txampion 20 points21 points22 points 9 months ago
Maybe he has been banned from ''Second Life'' and now he can log in with his children's accounts.
[–]kerowack 11 points12 points13 points 10 months ago
Finally, come on people...
[–]MinisterOfTheDog 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
You ought to be more indulgent with that mistake, considering it's taken directly from one of his speeches. People don't speak the same they write, it's easier to make mistakes whilst speaking.
[–]James-Cizuz 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
People don't speak the same they write,---
Clever girl. I hope you put that in there to improve your're point.
[–]MinisterOfTheDog 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Ouch! It should say "the same way". Thanks for your comment though ;)
[–]theultimatejames 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
to improve your're point.
I hope you put that in there to emphasis his point.
[–]TheVenetianMask 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
It's a typo. He meant "chance of AT-AT second life".
I wouldn't exchange being reborn as an AT-AT for anything, either.
[–]Jerzeem 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
AT-ST? You just have to watch out for logs.
[–]Kryten_2X4B_523P 51 points52 points53 points 10 months ago
"...now give me a glass of scotch and 7 cigarettes. I wish to feast!"
[–]GodManDog 16 points17 points18 points 9 months ago
7 glasses of scotch and 1 cigarette sounds better..
[–]Fantasticriss 64 points65 points66 points 10 months ago
not to be a silly sally but who is this fine gentleman?
[–]jizzyopo 187 points188 points189 points 10 months ago
Christopher Hitchens, you silly sally
[–]JizzblasterBoris 16 points17 points18 points 10 months ago
Chris Hitchens.
I also recommend Richard Dawkins, Carl Sagan and Douglas Adams if you're interested in enjoying more absurdity of religion.
[–]ImpolexG 63 points64 points65 points 10 months ago
FYI Hitchens HATES to be called Chris
[–]feureau 8 points9 points10 points 10 months ago
Just curious: Any backstory to this?
[–]ImpolexG 27 points28 points29 points 10 months ago
he did dedicate a whole chapter in his memoir to this topic
[–]vegetarianBLTG 8 points9 points10 points 10 months ago
Please tell me this is truth. What a g if that is true.
[–]logicalrationaltruth 49 points50 points51 points 10 months ago
He also hates to be called a g. He prefers gangsta. It's in chapter 9.
[–]vegetarianBLTG 11 points12 points13 points 10 months ago
I draw the line.
[–]timotheophany 14 points15 points16 points 10 months ago
I keep my eyes wide open all the time.
[–]kookman 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago
because you're mine
[–]frothyloins 8 points9 points10 points 10 months ago
It's true. Page 93. Chapter is called "Chris or Christopher?"
[–]dmrnj 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
Link
[–]MisterPhD 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
Honestly, I thought that the guy above you was a troll until I saw this. All the upward boards to you. :D
EDIT: Actually, I thought that this whole thread was a troll. I'm glad that it's not.
[–]capnza 4 points5 points6 points 10 months ago
His name is Christopher. Americans have a fixation with shortening names. In the UK many people are known by their full name.
[–]elusiveallusion 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
I think this is all relative. Fellow Australians have told me that while working in the US, co-workers seemed bizarrely formal. His name was Constantine - in Australia, he is universally 'Con', or in extreme cases, 'Conno'.
In the US, though, he was (to his ear) Khanstanteeeen. Despite repeated requests in the manner, of 'No, really, "Con" is fine. Rhymes with "on".'
[–]capnza 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
My perception is that the Australians might be even more informal than the Americans in this regard! I think Aus might be the only place where a lovely name like Constantine would be shortened to Conno ;P
[–]Atario 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
How about Christ?
[–]MRambivalence 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Relevant
[–][deleted] 9 months ago
[deleted]
[–]ImpolexG 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
i think Hitchens' aversion to the nickname Chris stems at least partly from his desire to use the nickname Hitch
[–]waxingpoetic 5 points6 points7 points 10 months ago
Don't forget Sam Harris or Daniel Dennett
[–]frigginhumid 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
And Lawrence Krauss.
[–]kernel_panic 11 points12 points13 points 10 months ago
Not to be a hipster, but if you really want someone to blow your mind, read some Bertrand Russell. What he says, though written beautifully, as he was a master of English prose, is not nearly as remarkable as when he said it. A lot of arguments used by the aforementioned fine gentlemen come from Russell. The fact that all of this was discussed almost a century ago makes you wonder how far humans could have come if we prioritized reason over dogma. Russell himself, of course, was influenced by others (notably John Stuart Mill, with his question of Who created God?), but his eloquence puts him in a whole category of his own, IMHO.
[–]ExistentialEnso 8 points9 points10 points 10 months ago
As a philosophy major, I have to second you on the Russell. Not to mention that the /r/atheism logo features the Russell's teapot, which is named after him.
[–]cityochamps 2 points3 points4 points 10 months ago
TIL Russell's teapot inspired the flying spaghetti monster
[–]Rekel 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
What should I read by Russell?
[–]ExistentialEnso 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
About atheism? He has several great essays on the subject, such as "What I Believe" and "Why I Am Not Christian."
For general philosophy, I would say his A History of Western Philosophy is perhaps the best book of its kind, which, though written from a historical angle, is chocked full of his insights.
[–]dufu 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
Such as this prologue to his autobiography, What I Have Lived For:
Three passions, simple but overwhelmingly strong, have governed my life: the longing for love, the search for knowledge, and unbearable pity for the suffering of mankind. These passions, like great winds, have blown me hither and thither, in a wayward course, over a great ocean of anguish, reaching to the very verge of despair.
I have sought love, first, because it brings ecstasy--ecstasy so great that I would often have sacrificed all the rest of life for a few hours of this joy. I have sought it, next, because it relieves loneliness--that terrible loneliness in which one shivering consciousness looks over the rim of the world into the cold unfathomable lifeless abyss. I have sought it finally, because in the union of love I have seen, in a mystic miniature, the prefiguring vision of the heaven that saints and poets have imagined. This is what I sought, and though it might seem too good for human life, this is what--at last--I have found.
With equal passion I have sought knowledge. I have wished to understand the hearts of men. I have wished to know why the stars shine. And I have tried to apprehend the Pythagorean power by which number holds sway above the flux. A little of this, but not much, I have achieved.
Love and knowledge, so far as they were possible, led upward toward the heavens. But always pity brought me back to earth. Echoes of cries of pain reverberate in my heart. Children in famine, victims tortured by oppressors, helpless old people a burden to their sons, and the whole world of loneliness, poverty, and pain make a mockery of what human life should be. I long to alleviate this evil, but I cannot, and I too suffer.
This has been my life. I have found it worth living, and would gladly live it again if the chance were offered me.
[–]SabineLavine 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
That's lovely. I know I've read some of Russell's stuff before, but it's been a long time. Guess I'll have to check the shelves to see what I've got. Thanks for sharing that.
[–]mojambowhatisthescen 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Ah thanks for spreading the light! Not to undermine any of the others, but I found Bertnand Russell's writing to simply be on another level of literary genius. So apart from when he wrote it, how he put his point across is also something to cherish.
[–]ThomsWinkyEye 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I'm not familiar with Russell, apart from the teapot analogy. Are there any books, essays or whatnot in particular that stand out as Must Reads?
[–]Heavy_Rain 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I always wanted to read some Russell, but could never decide what to start with. Would you recommend Religion and Science, which is mentioned in the FAQ?
[–]kernel_panic 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Russell has written something like 70 books. He lived a long life, but that is still about one book for every adult year, which is nothing short of amazing. I have obviously not read most of them, but if I were to recommend one to start, it would be Why I am not a Christian. A regular person can digest this book, whereas if you look at something like Introduction to Mathematical Philosophy you might be fooled by the word introduction and then be completely lost 10 pages into it. His works on philosophy are intense, and they're certainly over my head. On religion, however, he is possibly the clearest writer of all time.
Yeah, the sheer amount of publications has kinda discouraged me until now. I'll look into Why I am not a Christian now and I might check my father's little "library" and see if he has something by Russell.
Thanks for your answer!
[–]Your_Story 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago
The world has come crashing down around mankind. All forms of government have been destroyed and the wastelands of society are ruled by tyrannical mutated warlords who are also birds. They call themselves J.I.Z.Z.:the Justice Insurgency of Zany Zebras. One man stands alone in his fight to free us from their iron grip. One man betrayed by the woman he loved and the dog he walked around the neighborhood (but only when the weather was nice). One man with a REALLY BIG BLASTER. Boris Zanzibar McCowen is "JizzblasterBoris".
[–]mattattaque 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Sam Harris as well.
[–]Esteam 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
I'd rather everyone just read the fucking bible to get your own opinion.
The ideology of anything, from the bible to Carl Sagan or even Richard Dawkins is a silly and dangerous thing to follow. Develop your own opinions and ideologies and take from anything a pinch of salt.
[–]untag_me 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
I love silly sally, I'm stealing her.
[–]DKdonkeykong 7 points8 points9 points 10 months ago
I watched the debate that this quote come from. It was televised on a Christian television channel. Nothing like someone yelling "Fuck you!" to God on a christian television channel. The entire audience applauded. I laughed hysterically when this happened.
[–]floodyberry 124 points125 points126 points 10 months ago
How did you POSSIBLY butcher the quote that bad? It's like you added and removed words at random. Are you missing parts of your brain?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO129-RfhVE
And not scorning the three delightful children who result - who are everything to me and who are my only chance of even a glimpse of a second life, let alone an immortal one, and I’ll tell you something: if I was told to sacrifice them to prove my devotion to God, if I was told to do what all monotheists are told to do and admire the man who said, “Yes, I’ll gut my kid to show my love of God,” I’d say, “No, fuck you!"
[–]Kryten_2X4B_523P 19 points20 points21 points 10 months ago
"are you missing parts of your brain?"
For some reason I read this in John Cleese' voice.
[–]RollerDerby88[S] 53 points54 points55 points 10 months ago
I'm so sorry about this! It was quite staggered and hard to understand when put down in text. I tried to simply it and failed miserably... here it is with the direct quote for anyone interested!
http://i.imgur.com/OwoEr.jpg
[–]zalapa89 13 points14 points15 points 10 months ago
It's ok. Accidents happen. And we all got the gist of it.
[–]nightss 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
do you have the stock image of hitchens? would love to make this 1920x1080
[–]elvisdotalive 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Do it!
[–]nightss 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
http://i.imgur.com/JSjsJ.jpg
1920x1080
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
would anyone in this day and age really do this?
I think not...
[–]OGrilla 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
I've read about mothers drowning their children because God told them to. Or fathers murder-suiciding their family for the same reason. Yeah, I'm pretty sure there are people who would really do this in this day and age. Just not on a wooden altar on a desert mountainside.
oh I forgot one or two crazy people in 7 billion makes the world a mad old testament place
you can't actually know these people were not schizophrenic
[–]OGrilla 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
So the fact that there are modern people who would do this is not good enough to refute your argument. Now you've moved the goalpost to proving that Isaiah wasn't schizophrenic and that clearly these modern people are. Well I'm just gonna go ahead and admit it: Isaiah was a delusional desert ape.
whatever dude... I think you're one of these fanboys that takes things WAY too seriously.. plus you're arguing these events actually occoured
ignore..
[–]int0xicunt 36 points37 points38 points 10 months ago
why are you so hostile man
[–]gatz 9 points10 points11 points 9 months ago
"It's better to be pissed off than pissed on!"
[–]file-exists-p 10 points11 points12 points 9 months ago
Because destroying a piece of art is an unacceptable thing, dude. Unacceptable.
[–]KennyFuckingPowers 6 points7 points8 points 10 months ago
Aw, you made him sad :(
[–]mavriksfan11 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
intoxicunt...where have i seen this before...
[–]istoleyourpope 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
I like being rude when it's completely unnecessary too!
[–]DiaperParty 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago
Thanks. The quote barely made sense to me the way he hacked it up.
[–]Hadrius 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
It was an approximation! Hitchens' words aren't holy or something, why do you care? It got the point across.
[–]mirex0_0 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
It was an app. Hitchens aren't holly. Why do you care to get the point across? - Hadrius
[–]James-Cizuz 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07NMglQX6gE
I was going to write something, but this explains it fully. You are encouraged to change quotes as long as they do not change the original meaning. Your example changes the original meaning, so it really does not even apply in regards to this situation, because the original poster did not change it's original meaning, or butcher anything.
[–]mirex0_0 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago*
I'm subbed to potholer54, so I'm familiar with the video, exactly the reason I don't like what he did with the quote.
Original
And not scorning the three delightful children who result - who are everything to me and who are my only chance of even a glimpse of a second life, let alone an immortal one, and I’ll tell you something...
His version
My three delightful children are my only chance of at[sic] a second life, or even an immortal one. And I’ll tell you something...
The meaning is changed. Original - a man explaining there is no afterlife, and that his children will carry the memory or him. And in his version - a madman, who wants to live forever. Not to mention there is no need to shorten it in this case. Potholer would disapprove.
edit: From the video -
...but every cut we make has to be weight carefully to ensure it's done for time reasons alone...
Sigh.
You realize both quotes are the same right, same meaning.
First quote.
I have 3 children, who are everything to me and my only change of even a glimpse of a second life, let alone an immortal one.
Second quote.
I have 3 children, who are everything to me.(Delightful used in both quotes in same context, ommiting "and not scorning") are my only change at a second life, or even an immortal one.
The only difference I can agree on is that in the first quote the words "Are my only chance of even a glimpse" which portrays that he would like to live on in their memories and pass down his genes. In the second quote it omits the words "Even a glimpse" which doesn't change the overall meaning. In the second quote hes not saying that he will have a second life or live forever, he said his only chance(Figurtively speaking of course) is to live on in his childrens memories and passing down his genes.
However you know what the overall hilarious part of this is? The meaning of the quote comes down to "If god told me to sacrifice my kid, i'd say fuck you." and even if you remove the entire first portion about his kids being his only chance at passing down his genes or being remembered the point remains.
Potholer would agree, he actually uses a few examples in the video saying "While we did omit some parts of the quote, the overall meaning stayed the same" which is the point.
However when it comes down to it, the OP said he wrote this while listening to a video and didn't get the whole quote, he said he did. He did a good job, as it's the same meaning.
[–]mirex0_0 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago*
You can argue they have the same meaning, and you can argue that "let alone an immortal one" = "or even an immortal one". But that doesn't make sense to me.
Quotes are shorten because of time constrains and to simplify them. There are no time constraints here, and he fucked up the clarification part, so not a good job and end of discussion.
[–]Hadrius 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
There weren't any misspellings...
[–]mirex0_0 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Ahem.
...children are my only chance of at a second life...
[–]FantomEx 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago*
Ya it was a butchered quote but basically, god tells you to kill your child then the world is divided between those who say "FUCK YOU" and "HOW MANY STABS?".
[–]Dave_Davidson_ 4 points5 points6 points 10 months ago
Classic Hitchens right here. I know it's unlikely at this point, but I'm still hoping he recovers from his cancer, men of his calibre are in short supply.
[–]Cyberbuddha 24 points25 points26 points 10 months ago*
I still think as an atheist that the Bible can be appreciated as a work of literature, morality tales, and is open to literary criticism. I always preferred the somewhat esoteric Jewish interpretation which saw this episode as a failure of Abraham, not a positive story about his faith. God never talks directly to him again following the whole Issac debacle. This interpretation sees Abraham's lack of objection, especially when he earlier challenges God over the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah ("will you destroy the city if you can find 50 righteous men? 40 righteous men? 30? etc..."). God wanted to be challenged; God wanted Abraham to do as Socrates does and ask constantly, especially against authority, what is the good? What is moral? What is just? Abraham didn't do that here so the story is about the supreme failure of Abraham and not his triumph by blind faith. In fact I was reading somewhere that this may be a more original interpretation (for whatever that's worth) than supposed. There is some evidence that the text showing approval given by God (after the angel stops Abraham) for Abraham's blind faith is actually a later insertion by another author. Just some interesting trivia.
Edit: Just in case it's unclear, I place stories like this on equal footing with the Upanishads, The Quran, Greek myths, etc.. in terms of metaphysical truth. I just happen to think the above retelling is much more compelling and interesting.
From: http://www.stltoday.com/lifestyles/faith-and-values/civil-religion/hyim-shafner/did-abraham-fail-the-ultimate-test/article_d5ebdeae-1090-11e1-9012-0019bb30f31a.html
"I would like to suggest perhaps a new explanation. I am led to this possibility by the abundance of questions the story leaves us with and the dearth of satisfying answers. Perhaps the real test was for Abraham was to confront God as he did at Sodom, thus teaching his children “righteousness and justice,” and ultimately to say “no” to God. Perhaps, on some level in this narrative, Abraham failed the test. I would suggest this is why God never speaks to Abraham again after the binding of Isaac. In the end of the story an emissary angel speaks to Abraham - but where is God? Why doesn’t God just speak directly to Abraham? Perhaps Abraham’s leadership and God’s relationship with Abraham has ended. Perhaps if we begin to see this narrative as a test in which the right answer is to protect an innocent child rather than sacrifice him in obedience to God, our world, one in which millions of religious people trace themselves theologically back to this story, might be a bit less violent."
[–]Shampyon 9 points10 points11 points 10 months ago
That's a pretty interesting interpretation.
I could almost respect the God in that interpretation, for trying to guide his creation into thinking for itself instead of blindly following.
[–]callitfreeinternet 13 points14 points15 points 10 months ago*
I rarely come in this subreddit but thought I'd just add my two cents. It might just be my part of town or it might be because I'm Muslim, but that is the way it was taught to us. The moral of the story (we also believe these are all just parables not accurate depictions of reality) wasn't about sacrificing anything to prove loyalty but rather to question what kind of God you believe in... the whole thing "why would God make you kill a son?" is sort of off-topic from the lesson of the story. It'd be like asking "how can a fox talk" in an Aesop fable... it's not really the point of the story, (again, it's a parable.)
Edit: Just remembered also that this story was used to counter the stuff that people like Osama would say. Like if Osama is talking about a god who says to do things that you feel are morally wrong (like killing innocents) you should definitely question what kind of god you believe in.
[–]johnlocke90 6 points7 points8 points 9 months ago*
Edit: If you look at the actual story, the angel praises Abraham for being willing to make the sacrifice he tells him
“I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring[b] all nations on earth will be blessed,[c] because you have obeyed me.”
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+22&version=NIV
God is going to give Abraham numerous descendants(which was a pretty big deal back then) and ensure that his offspring will bless all the nations on the earth BECAUSE he was willing to sacrifice his son. If this was a test, God wouldn't have rewarded Abraham so richly for failure. Your interpretation completely ignores the story itself.
And because some people didn't look more in depth to this, they'll continue to be as uneducated, and thoughtless as someone who would follow that very scripture to the point of sacrificing their own fucking child.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 10 months ago
That's exactly how a Jewish friend of mine explained it to me. The fable is meant to criticize blind faith, as opposed to one who questions and discovers answers for themselves.
[–]johnlocke90 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
That is a very modern interpretation. not one intended by the authors or believed by the local people(look at Hebrews 11 for instance)
[–]frankle 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Finally, something interesting in r/Atheism.
[–]Hellenomania 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
I still think as an atheist that the Bible can be appreciated as a work of literature, morality tales, and is open to literary criticism
so can the marquee de sade.
[–]davobrosia 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
*Marquis.
And he is. What are you even trying to get at?
[–]Kryten_2X4B_523P 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago*
Agreed. Further to the point. God renamed Jacob Israel. Israel means "One who wrestles with God."
This quality of confrontation and engagement with God, as opposed to pure submission, remains a distinguishing characteristic of Judaism.
[–]inferno719 3 points4 points5 points 10 months ago
You know, now for the first time I realize exactly how fucked up that story is. Killing your kid because you think a magical sky wizard told you to do it? What the FUCK is wrong with you?! You DON'T look up to someone like this.
[–]super__mario 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Some people followed that advice. Remember the rapture that was supposed to happen this year? Well some people decided to kill their children to save them from it
http://sandrarose.com/2011/05/mom-may-have-sacrificed-her-son-in-preparation-for-the-rapture/
http://inspirationalfreethought.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/mother-tries-to-kill-her-own-children-before-rapture/
[–]kevn987 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
But Jesus died so you can kill your children.
[–]urbaneinthemembrane 2 points3 points4 points 10 months ago
Alternatively, if you want a true philosophical inquiry into the faith struggle present in Abraham's call to sacrifice Isaac: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_and_Trembling
[–]PervaricatorGeneral 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Søren Kierkegaard, F-Yeah!
[–]spacelaw 2 points3 points4 points 10 months ago
Hitchens will always live on in Google's cache.
[–]elucify 2 points3 points4 points 10 months ago
Relevant, hilarious: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDfoJ29CR4E
"And on the seventh day, God rested. And on the eighth day, God rested. And on the ninth day, God rested. So basically, He just rested. Then He drowned everybody, and invented the rainbow! And then rested."
[–]RollerDerby88[S] 2 points3 points4 points 10 months ago
Hey guys; I fixed the quote incase anyone is interested!
[–]Shadycat 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Thanks!
[–]YourPostIsStupid 2 points3 points4 points 10 months ago
This is common sense. Not faith and unquestioning love.
[–]PatrickChinaski 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
God bless you , Hitch!
[–]mick8980 3 points4 points5 points 10 months ago
Yes. A thousand times yes.
[–]jadenton 9 points10 points11 points 10 months ago
There is another way to view this story. It can be viewed, not without some justification within the text itself, that God is playing chicken with Abraham. Because God is dick that way. And God blinks. God loses at Chicken at because Abraham basically has balls of steel. And it is after God loses that God makes the convenient with Abraham. Because God lost.
[–]TheMediumPanda 5 points6 points7 points 9 months ago
GOD NEVER LOSES YOU HELL-BENT, GOOD-FOR-NUTHIN' BLASPHEMER!
[–]EsteemedColleague 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
This is the same God that invented asteroid impacts, AIDS, gamma radiation, genocide, and mustard gas. I doubt he'd flinch over one measley child getting slaughtered.
[–]butcher99 2 points3 points4 points 10 months ago
That always bothered me in bible class as well. Still does. What kind of dad would even consider such a thing?
[–]fiftypoints 2 points3 points4 points 10 months ago
What kind of god would ask it?
[–]ib1yysguy 3 points4 points5 points 10 months ago
Christopher Hitchens would be my hero if I had heros (as he is fond of saying of Churchill). The man is dying, however, in case anyone didn't already know.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
Poor guy just doesn't understand god's mysterious ways.
[–]acl2149 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
His daughter antonia was at one of our frat parties. my friend said "i want to hook up with her, then marry her so i could have sex with her father". His logic didn't make sense but i got the idea.
[–]dabbledabbledoo 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
even back when i believed in that stuff i knew that abraham's choice was a wrong one
[–]thedemonlover 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
He's dying of Cancer. What a shame. He's one of the most important intellectuals we have.
[–]johnlocke90 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Not to mention the story of Jephthah where God does accept human sacrifice.
[–]fuzzb0y 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Where are all the religious intellectuals on reddit? I'm quite confused, I know quite a few friends who are in medical school, law school, PhD programs and yet deeply religious, and can come up with more reasonable theories to defend religion; I'm curious to hear their views, instead of the prototypical "because god, period" explanations.
[–]PalmerKid 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
My god, I have such a man-crush on him.
[–]Shadycat 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Just a heads up for anyone about to wade through the comments. This post has been responded to heavily by Christians attempting to justify Abraham's actions. If the bible said Jesus had a nine year old wife, they'd justify pedophilia. I've broken my own rule and allowed Reddit to make me angry. Lates.
[–]oSand 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
I like the Hyperion explanation of the Abe/Izzy situation: God was not testing Abe, Abe was testing God.
[–]TitaniumTicTac 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago*
Just got The Selfish Gene and god is not Great. I'm happy. :D
[–]gsentir 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Let's hear it for the Hitch! Shout out to all other horsemen of the counter apocolypse: official, unofficial, and honorary riders. Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennet, Sam Harris, Victor Stenger, Neil DeGrasse Tyson, Lawrence Krauss, AC Grayling, Ayaan Hirsi-Ali, Salman Rushdie, Dan Barker, Matt Dillahunty and the gang, Mr. Deity, Penn & Teller, the Amaz!ng Randi, and many many more both past and present.
[–]high_six 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago
this guy gets it.
[–]Blueberry_H3AD 4 points5 points6 points 10 months ago
Yeah seriously fuck Abraham. Honestly what father could?
[–]brahsomely 4 points5 points6 points 10 months ago
One with faith?
[–]toji53 5 points6 points7 points 10 months ago
More like
A: a fictional one or
B: a psychopath
[–]PlusSixtoReason 5 points6 points7 points 10 months ago
Well the writer of most of the New Testament was a murderer, so it's not surprising shit like this in there too.
[–]harlows_monkeys 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
No, faith is when some priest tells you God told the priest to tell you to sacrifice the kid, and you do it. Abraham, according to the story, believed he was being told directly by God to do it. At that point, it's no longer a matter of faith.
[–]Mr_Walter_Sobchak 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
I'd want to wear a condom though I heard Abraham is pretty nasty down below.
[–]rationalchristian 4 points5 points6 points 10 months ago
I have one problem with this - I'm not sure he really understands the story or all the particulars.
A critical historical perspective on the Abraham story is that the surrounding and prevalent cultures of the time participated in child sacrifices. Because of this, it is assumed that cultural pressures would not have made such an act seem so repugnant - this is not to excuse the morality of child sacrifice, but rather to point out that Abraham wasn't contemplating the act in like 2011 and it being completely unbelievable.
Also, the story clearly shows a paradox - Isaac was to be the child through whom Abraham would father many nations, but Abraham was supposed to sacrifice him, so how could this expectation be fulfilled? As Abraham leaves to do the act, he tells his servants: "We will worship and then WE will come back to you." Apparently, he had the expectation that both of them would return. There are many possible explanations for this (none explicit) but the fact remains that the story points to an incongruity between the sacrifice and the necessity and expectation of Isaac surviving.
Lastly, Hitchens fails to mention one thing about the whole story: God obviously never intended Abraham to actually sacrifice Isaac. If you have a problem with the story, at best you can question Abraham's morals. But the cultural setting suggests this was a commonplace occurrence and that if anything God plays a rational voice here - if Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son for whatever reason (personal or culturally influenced, whatever), God steps in and shows Abraham that this type of sacrifice is wrong. God plays the role of cultural corrector and plays a corrective force.
As a peace offering, I would like to share a pacifist poem based on the Abrahamic story: Parable of the Old Man and The Young tinyurl.com/warparable
[–]gfunkusarelius 15 points16 points17 points 10 months ago
I believe Hitchens has addressed all your points in his books and debates, and he could do so far better than I, but my thoughts-
historical context argument- God is supposed to be omniscient, omnipotent, omni-benevolent. Surely he could find a way to transcend the culture of the time and teach them human sacrifice (or any animal sacrifice, or slavery, for that matter) was unnecessary and wrong. These stories reflect what we should expect to be written by people in that culture from their cultural perspective, no God necessary.
The Paradox- If Abraham knew the whole time he wasn't going to sacrifice his son, or if God never intended him to, or he would bring him back fromt he dead, what is the point of the entire exercise?
God didn't really mean it- You are shifting the blame from God to Abraham when God ordered it and then stopped him only when he said basically "okay, I just needed to make sure you would go through with doing the WORST possible thing you could imagine for me." The message is very clear- we should be willing to make an ultimate sacrifice to God at his whim.
Religion is fascinating to me, and I do think the stories of the Bible should be appreciated in context of the times, I just don't think and supreme being had anything to do with it. And I think apologetics try to force intelligent people to excuse really terrible things in exchange for holding on to outdated and even barbaric teachings. Furthermore, the human sacrifice of Jesus is the basis of Christianity, so downplaying the significance of the human sacrifice here seems silly. *edited for readability since it got long...
[–]rationalchristian 3 points4 points5 points 10 months ago
"And I think apologetics try to force intelligent people to excuse really terrible things in exchange for holding on to outdated and even barbaric teachings." THANK YOU! I see many Christians get into apologetics because they are smart, get their beliefs challenged, and spend countless hours struggling to force-fit stuff into their reasoning. So I acknowledge that this happens.
Also, you make great points and I wish I had the time to discuss them more with you, but it's right up on midnight and I told my wife I'd be fixing some things up in our new house tonight (she went to sleep early). One thing I'd mention for point 1. - that's from the perspective that God drew the Bible letters down with His own fingers, the fundie-view of the inspiration of the Bible. I see the texts as more like people inspired to write down the testimonies of God working among people, so they wrote with metaphors they understood, from their own cultural assumptions (group vs individualistic, for example), and other such differences - I don't think God wanted these things written down for flawless Western perfection, and luckily I don't think Ancient Near Eastern perspectives saw God as demanding this from us anyway (at least in the Western flawless view of 'perfect' versus the ancient view of 'perfect' emphasizing maturity, completion and fulfillment over spotless/flawlessness - a small but important distinction).
[–]ok_move_along 2 points3 points4 points 10 months ago
So I acknowledge that this happens.
Biggest mystery to me is how YOU do not realize when you're doing it yourself.
[–]OCedHrt 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
I think there is the implication that those who are "inspired to write down the testimonies of God" either 1) are the hand of God and wrote exactly what he intended; because God is omnipotent or 2) there is no God.
[–]AtheistSteve 17 points18 points19 points 10 months ago
I think God's morals can still be questioned in this story whether he intended Abraham to kill his son or not. It was obviously a test of faith, a test that Abraham presumably passed. This means that God WANTS his followers to be willing to kill their sons for him. It's rewarding complete and total servility.
Plus, it's not necessarily unhelpful to question the morals of Abraham since he's considered the founder of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
[–]dohaeris 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
If God does exist and is an omnipotent and omniscient force, then God's morals are the morals and cannot be questioned. If the omniscient force that created everything tells you something is a certain way, it's because he controls it and in fact it is that way. Just something to consider. I feel like many in /r/atheism fail to take that into account and instead subject an omniscient force to their own morals.
To analogize, this would be like an employee at McDonalds deciding to tell the owner of the franchise that selling hamburgers is wrong, and instead they should sell green beans. That's probably not a good analogy. I don't care, it's late, I'm assuming you're all smart enough to figure out what I mean.
[–]assholesupreme 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
Not at all. If such a god exists then it is our moral obligation to object to his form of morals. His morals are misguided, are harmful to his supposed creation, and we've managed to better ourselves beyond arbitrary morality. If god tells all humans to kill themselves and that will be the end of humanity, why should we do so? Cannot be questioned? Puh-leeze.
To analogize, this would be like an employee at McDonalds deciding to tell the owner of the franchise that selling hamburgers is wrong, and instead they should sell green beans.
For the good of the nation, he's probably right.
[–]dohaeris 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
So if a literal angel appeared to you and God himself showed up to give you a magical pill that sent you straight to heaven, you'd question his morals? If he is the creator of morals, how can you justify that? I'm merely stating a hypothetical by the way, not attempting to argue the existence of God. I just find this line of thinking interesting.
[–]AtheistSteve 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I guess it depends on how one defines morality. If morality is basically the whim of a homicidal god then yes, morality would be whatever God says is moral. According to the Bible, however, this means that morality is constantly in flux. It is one of the most morally inconsistent pieces of literature in existence. This would mean we could never truly know what is or isn't moral, and far from being bastion for all Western morality, it would in fact have far less force than an modern concept of morality.
Of course I'm an atheists and this is all hypothetical, but I do find it interesting when Christians say that they get their morality from their religion or the Bible. I usually think to myself "I sure hope not".
[–]PlusSixtoReason 42 points43 points44 points 10 months ago
No, God was rewarding him for being willing to murder his kid. It's a horrible, ridiculous story.
Not to mention complete bullshit.
The problem with the Bible is you can put any spin on it you want. Nobody takes it as face value. If the Bible said God's favorite snack was Doritos people would say in the context what he really meant was Fritos.
[–]fwerp 21 points22 points23 points 10 months ago
This is how I feel. My university required me to take an Old + New Testament course and I felt like through the entire thing my professor was just explaining multiple interpretations of various books and passages to smooth out contradictions so that the Bible actually flowed with what we today see as morally good.
We were told to remember that the Bible was written during a certain period, too. To take the cultural perspective of that time into account. One question that I kept asking myself was...what makes you so sure our culture (today) the right culture? What if sacrificing your child to God is actually what God wants, and we're supposed to take it at face value?
[–]PlusSixtoReason 9 points10 points11 points 10 months ago
Exactly and I obviously would not agree with the morality presented in the Bible.
I honestly cannot believe there are so many people who subscribe to such primitive thinking. I just can't take religious people seriously because they are so fucking crazy.
[–]caoimhinn 3 points4 points5 points 10 months ago
Respectfully, when you start the conversation with that remark--that "religious people are all fucking crazy"--you're destroying all hope of having a healthy discussion on the topic.
I don't think that you're "fucking crazy" just because you suppose you have an answer to a question that is, at best, unanswerable.
This can be a scholarly debate, but you have to adhere to some standards. Suspend your prejudices against the opponent.
[–]PlusSixtoReason -1 points0 points1 point 10 months ago
I'll stick by what I said. For someone to believe in such primitive thinking they have to be at least slightly stupid.
You would not be so quick to have a healthy conversation with these people if you lived during the time of the bible and your kid was killed by a bear sent by god.
I will talk to religious people but not under false pretenses. I will do them the courtesy of letting them know I think they are stupid to believe in such horrible teachings. Knowing all the horrible things done in the name of religion, I have absolutely no trouble telling them this.
That said I don't seek to harm them or take their rights away or something. I just think they are stupid to a certain degree.
[–]TheMediumPanda 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Unfortunately there ARE many millions of Christians who take the Bible on face value. It's even worse with the Islamic counterpart. Muslims risk expulsion and death if they don't (in theory) and examples have happened.
[–]EsteemedColleague 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Exactly. This story is just a Bronze Age way of saying "you have to always do whatever God says, no matter what, because he knows what he's doing. Just fucking trust him and everything will be fine, I swear."
[–]00zero00 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
He didnt reward him. Abraham failed. God never spoke to Abraham after this incident. He didnt even speak during it; God had to send an angel to speak for him. Before God spoke to him all the time; after this Abraham was alone. There is an interpretation that Abraham failed and God punished him by not speaking to him anymore. Also imagine the relationship between Isaac and his father afterwards. Isaac never talked to his father after that incident. Also an indication of failure.
So do as I command no questions asked normally, then punishes him for doing what he's asked to do. Makes sense.
If it were me I'd be glad I no longer heard voices in my head.
Scumbag God.
Commands Abraham
Punishes him for carrying out.
The interpretation is that one shouldn't do as one is commanded all the time. One should question what he is told to do when such commands seem odd. God never really told Abraham to do as he commanded all the time in the first place. Abraham followed God blindly and for that he was punished. That is why Moses was considered God's greatest prophet because he questioned and quarreled with God almost all the time that was necessary
[–]PlusSixtoReason 7 points8 points9 points 10 months ago
Then I must have a special seat reserved in Heaven.
[–]johnlocke90 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
This interpretation wasn't one believed by the early Jews or Christians. Its very much a modern one.
[–]TheMediumPanda 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
The big problem with out-there interpretations like that is that it only shows God as fallible (as the creator of Abraham and humankind), which of course doesn't go to well with the whole God-is-perfect-omnipotent-and-never-makes-mistakes concept.
[–]atheistdeepinthebelt 3 points4 points5 points 10 months ago
I appreciate your intellectual honestly. Fear mongering, misinformation, and. oversimplification combined with emotion over logic is too often found amoung us humans, regardless of debate or position. While I disagree with you, I respect the way you analysized this passage. I'm very biblically literate myself (from a different time). It's rarely black and white.
[–]Jo_prettycoolguy 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
Too bad it didn't work out so well for Jephthah's daughter.
[–]tau_of_programming 13 points14 points15 points 10 months ago
God obviously never intended Abraham to actually sacrifice Isaac
Obviously what? Apparently you not only believe that a God exists, but you also seem to know exactly what he wants. Most people in this forum do not have that instinct, so I am not sure your message will not be lost here.
In any case, God, or so Christians believe, did sacrifice Jesus Christ for some egotistic or superstitious bullshitting, which is as much a crime as killing a child. Both being homicides.
[–]BendOver4Rover 14 points15 points16 points 10 months ago
I disagree with your viewpoint, but it interests me.
[–]amorrn 2 points3 points4 points 10 months ago
atleastyoutried.jpg
[–]yesmanapple 3 points4 points5 points 10 months ago
An excellent point, and an interesting perspective. Still, whether or not Mr. Hitchens is fully aware of the details of the story, I still have to agree with him that it no longer holds a relevant moral message. It was constructed in a primitive society in which blind subjugation to a greater entity was a first attempt at a moral code. Our modern struggles, however, do not derive from savage, untamed impulse but from our willingness to be manipulated and reject responsibility. A contemporary Abrahamic story would have Abraham responding to god as Hitchens did.
[–]Gibodean 4 points5 points6 points 10 months ago
Do you forget another part of the bible, where this army leader offers god a sacrifice of "whatever comes out of the door of my house when I get home", if god makes him win his battle.
Well, he wins, and no surprise, the thing that comes out the door of his house when he gets home is his daughter (the only person who lives there with him).
He sacrifices his daughter to god, and god doesn't stop it.
Jeptha might be the guy's name.
[–]scurvebeard 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
if Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son for whatever reason (personal or culturally influenced, whatever), God steps in and shows Abraham that this type of sacrifice is wrong.
Louis C.K. has a problem with that part. Why does he need to test people, anyway? Isn't he, you know, omniscient?
Just so we are all on the same page with your DEFENSE of child sacrifice - it absolutely wasn't normal, or part of culture to go around sacrificing your kid - not, at, fucking ALL.
In fact - even to the complete wingbats who were doing it was done as it was seen as the ULTIMATE sacrifice, the greatest sacrifice that could be made. Hence - it was just as bad as it is today - the only difference is that today we all know, since the enlightenment, the religion is for batshit crazy wing bats, and hence anything they do or say outside of the remit of actually preaching horseshit in a chapel is completely illegal - like killing your kids, stoning your wife, mixing religion with politics or even trying to teach it in science class.
Thats why we don't do it - because we see religion as being horse shit, and have seen it as horseshit for near on 500 years - its just a few fringe lunatics in the US who cant seem to get over the stupidity of it and a lot of that has to do with a deliberate destruction of the education system.
[–]bwilson416 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
the cultural setting suggests this was a commonplace occurrence and that if anything God plays a rational voice here
If it was a commonplace occurrence, then god picked the times he wants to show that something is wrong. Why would a moral god do this? And why isn't he intervening today, in times when honour killings seem to be more and more common?
[–]U2_is_gay 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
Plus, the person who would say "Ok I'll kill the kids" obviously has a different view altogether of immortality or a second life or whatever it is he is talking about.
He's choosing a take on this story and goes with it. Nothing wrong with that (since that's clearly how we all saw it when we were force fed this bull as kids) and anyone who's ever read Hitchens' books can testify he knows his scripture well.
[–]apb1979a -4 points-3 points-2 points 10 months ago
Good reply. your response is more intelligent than the vast majority of the stuff posted on r\atheism, including the OP.
[–]atheistdeepinthebelt 10 points11 points12 points 10 months ago
You can praise a person without putting another one down, you know.
[–]_TheSeldomSeenKid_ 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
Beautiful. Simply beautiful.
[–]beamish14 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
If only Hitchens wasn't a Bush, Jr. loving Tory.
[–]rplan039 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
I think there are less extreme examples one can take to espouse the virtues of atheism but I admire his boldness, and at the end of the day, his bottom line position is to be applauded.
[–]multiplicityCODEX 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
What are you going to do with immortality billy boy?
billy BOYEE!
[–]DownvoteThisCrap 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
And then he asked you to donate to wikipedia.
[–]mindtaker87 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
I like some of his arguments/points/reasonings/books but the guy's a sack of shit.
Yes, I know he's dying. That's life, he knows it, and he's dealing/dealt with it.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
Did he say this or write it? If he said it, anyone got a video? Would love to hear him say it.
Sounds weird, but fuck it.
[–]liquix 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
Remember when it was fashionable to be down the JC the kinslayer?
[–]crispysnugglekitties 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
And that's why circumcision is bullshit.
[–]countrybuhbuh 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
this sentiment is exactly where my mind went tonight while driving home behind yet another person that has a bumper sticker that say's God is Pro-Life.
So here is a challenge for you reddit atheism, Find me 10 examples of god saying kill this child for whatever reason. Maybe with a list like this we can have more ammo to shoot (verbally) at pro-lifer nuts
[–]Wiebelhaus 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
He's dying if I'm not mistaken , cancer I believe.
[–]MrDectol 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
If this is referring to the Bible, I can tell you that God never made Abraham go through with killing his son.
[–]ThatNeverHappened 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Man, you really thrashed that quote. Time to log off, lurk.
[–]ApatheticElephant 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Is there some kind of additional story behind this? Did some guy actually say that?
[–]nightss 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Does anybody have the stock of that image of hitch?
[–]minimuzza 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I find it deeply saddening that this man may have published his last book.
He will have at least as many posthumous releases as Tupac. Volumes of letters, unreleased manuscripts etc. Of course, I would much rather have him alive with his family, writing and being a general badass (reading "Hitch 22" right now) but he won't exactly disappear from the public mind anytime soon.
"Being a general badass." Indeed.
[–]nalgasdehule 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
http://imgur.com/PNRI7
[–]zedMinusMinus 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
"A beautiful story of faith and unquestioning love..."
Without even looking, I knew this was posted to r/atheism.
[–]blibarg 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
At least he knows when to stop unlike the other people that will destroy lives just from someone that said something on TV.
[–]Frywad32 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
The story is about how god wanted him to say that
[–]abbasaamer 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
This makes a great 20 second sound clip, but even as an atheist, I'm not sure this is that great of an argument, especially if you're trying to convince a theist.
The point of the Abraham story is that he was certain in the existence of a singular, omniscient God. If he was certain of this God's existence and believed that he would only do ethical things, then it follows that this request would have a good reason for it (perhaps the child would have grown to cause much greater damage to others).
Of course, it's fair to attack the story on the grounds that there is no evidence to show an omniscient or all-good God exists whatsoever. Further, the God of the Bible seems self-contradictory and petty. These are the right grounds to attack it on, but this graphic doesn't use these grounds at all.
[–]FulgrimTG 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
That would be a lot more inspirational if you had proof read the first sentence before posting...
[–]dmol 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Awwww Snap!
[–]fwerp 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
Has anyone ever actually run into a religious person that admits that they'd do this?
I've heard people say "Well, God would never ask me to do that." which is the most frustrating reply I could ever dread to get. I've never heard anyone say that they would.
[–]ElGuano 2 points3 points4 points 10 months ago
See: honor killings.
[–]Xeno234 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
Yes of course, be glad you haven't.
[–]ClarifyingRedditor 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
The quote is referring to the story of Abraham from the Old Testament, in which God asks the man to kill his son Isaac to prove his devotion. Abraham binds his son and is about to kill him before God intervenes and says that he does not have to, because he now knows that Abraham would do anything for him.
[–]ProfessorD2 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
Christopher Hitchens abandoned his wife and two young children.
I'm not sure where he gets off pretending to be a great role model of faithfulness and unquestioning love.
[–]Mpls_Saint 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
What are you babbling about?
[–]SabineLavine 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
When did he claim to be a role model of "faithfulness and unquestioning love?" And last I checked, Hitchens wasn't claiming to be god, so let's not hold him to the same standards as your supposedly benevelent deity.
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