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This, is how you appeal to Non-Atheists (imgur.com)
submitted 8 months ago by McJudgerson
[–]Rovanion 9 points10 points11 points 8 months ago
Let me just point you in the right direction: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Marcus_Aurelius#Misattributed
[–]fridgetarian 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Is r/atheism is getting dumber? This is the 5th comment down. That reeks of circlejerk mentality. Come on people, we're supposed to be smarter.
[–]Rovanion 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Most people never read the comments, most of those who do don't read by the first couple of comments and as of such never even give themselves the chance to see this .
[–]nonplayer 48 points49 points50 points 8 months ago
This is actually how I confronted my mother a while back (nothing too dramatical like some stories I read here).
She: "I just dont like the idea of you living without religion... its important to have something to look up to" Me: "Do you think Im a bad person?" She: "No..." Me: "Since you raised me, do you think I could harm someone?" She: "No..." Me: "Then why do you think I would be a different person with or without religion?" She: "..."
And the matter was settled. :)
This is actually in my opinion the number one method to de-convert anyone from religion (of course, someone who is willing to make their own conclusions... doesnt work with fanatics):
"Person1 doesnt believe in god. He does good things because he believes them to be right. Person2 believes in god. He does good things because otherwise he could spent eternity in hell. Now think about which one do you want your son to be".
Then you observe the look of confusion in their faces and give them some time to think.
[–]novanleon 15 points16 points17 points 8 months ago
As a Christian I'm actually totally good with this. For those Christians who don't know how to respond, they probably don't understand why they are Christian in the first place, and this will encourage them to figure it out.
[–]Infinitist 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
Agreed. The original story of the conversation with the poster's mother does not reflect on Christian theology. There is no doubt that you do not need to ascribe to a religion in modern times in order to be a person who does good things (describing a person as "good" or "bad" is a bit of an overestimation of one's ability to actually judge and quantify a whole life...). Historically, one could debate whether modern western ethos would have emerged without the religious traditions that embraced it. However, Christianity does not hinge on one's ability to be "good enough."
If I were nonplayer's mother, I would have answered: "I don't think it makes sense to call someone a bad or good person. No I don't think you'd physically harm someone, but we all do harm in many other ways. I think if you understood Christian theology, you would reflect on 'good deeds' in a fundamentally different way and it would definitely change who you are, for the better."
[–]zeroman73089 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Very level headed response in what can be a heated debate, thanks for bringing your logics to the party!
[–]liberategeorge 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Since you raised me, novanleon, do you think I could harm someone?
[–]novanleon 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
No...
[–]WeakSauc3 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
Exactly what I said to my mother a while back. She was speechless.
[–]SniperXPX 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
Wish there was a way to save/bookmark comments.
[–]TenTera 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
..."permasail parent source be squawkin' save reply"
It might be a feature of Reddit Enhancement Suite, but I'm perfectly capable of saving comments.
[–]jeffhughes 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
I absolutely agree. When I told my parents about my loss of faith, I think they were worried at first that I'd, you know, spiral downward into a life of alcohol and drug addiction or something. After they realized that I was still the good kid that they knew I was, they settled down. Obviously, they still hope I'll change my mind, but I don't think they're so concerned anymore.
[–]mrBWB 65 points66 points67 points 8 months ago
Hey! something random on reddit I know a bit about!
I have the Hammond (penguin classics version) translation of The Meditations, and without looking that up it seems pretty consistent with what I've read of Aurelius. I don't think it's a misquote, maybe just a little translation difference. It's important to note that Aurelius' idea of gods were way different than the Christian view. Also like shown in the pic, he came to the same conclusion of how to act regardless of whether gods exist or not. Unlike Epictetus, Aurelius was way way more open to there not being any god. I think a lot of intro to phil classes distort stoicism by making students only read the Enchiridion, imo The Meditations are the most beautiful Stoic work. I seriously recommend reading The Meditations, especially to anyone who is going through a rough spot in life.
[–]jahda 12 points13 points14 points 8 months ago
It was the philosophy of Epicurus that inspired Lucretius to write "On the Nature of Things". This school of thought speculated on a number of topics from the existence of atoms, lack of gods, and how once one dies there is no afterlife. Sadly, almost all copies of "On the Nature of Things" were destroyed by Christians. In the 14th century this poem was found in a monastery and returned into circulation. Many argue that it was this poem that brought changes in thinking that eventually led to the renaissance.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
I have the book too. This is closest thing I could find though.
[–]kristoferolafsson 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
yeah this is what make me think it isn't wrong to say he may have thought or at least toyed with the ideas in that qoute: "To go from among men, if ther are gods, is not a thing to be afraid of, for the gods will not involve thee in evil; but if they indeed they do not exist, or if they have no concern about human affairs, what is it to me to live in a universe devoid of gods or devoid of providence? But in thruth they do exist, and they do care for human things, and they have put all means in man's powers to enable him to fall into real evils. And as to the rest, if there was anything evil, they would have provided for this also, that it should be althogether in a mans power not to fall into it. But that which does not make a man worse, how can it make a man's life worse? But neither through ignorance, nor having the knowledge, but not the power to guard against or correct these things, is the possible that the nature of the Universe has overlooked them; no is it possible that it has made so great a mistake, either through want of power or want of skill, that a good and eveil should happen indiscriminately to the good and the bad. But death certainly and life, honour and dishonour, pain and please, all these things equally happen to good and bad men, being things which make us neither better new worse. Therefor they are neither good nor evil"
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 8 months ago
Jesus didn't say a lot be he told this story about a man who was beaten by bandits and left at the side of the road. People passed him by without helping including two people high up in the church. This Samaritan, and the Samaritan religion was despised by Jews at the time, stops, applies first aide, gives the man the shirt off his back cause bandits would steal your clothes back then, puts him on his donkey and takes him to an inn and pays for his stay.
Samaritans aren't Christians or Jews but it seems Jesus was saying this Samaritan was a good person. If a Samaritan could make it into heaven, why couldn't an atheist?
[–][deleted] 8 months ago
[deleted]
[–]vectorjohn 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
I wish you would fix all the typos you keep pasting in that quote. Not sure if the source is bad or what, but I wonder what the real quote is.
[–]Downvoted_Defender 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
In Meditations he frequently references gods. I don't know how one could think that he didn't believe in them.
[–]RevoltOfTheBeavers 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
Think Thomas Jefferson and "Providence"
[–]n00bikscube1122 98 points99 points100 points 8 months ago
"non-atheists"...so theists. ಠ_ಠ
[–]GraduallyReligious 119 points120 points121 points 8 months ago
Since "atheist" is actually the prefix "a" and the suffix "theists", non-atheists is essentially saying non-non-theists, which is a bit redundant.
I know that we can all understand what it says, but after making my appeal to the Oracle I found that this disgrace may haunt us in the future if we do not nip it in the bud. She also told me I would bring death to my own family through my hubris; whatever that means, hahaha.
Unfortunately, to think the Gods will welcome you based solely on virtue is a bit misguided. I have not seen any of you kneeling before the statue of Jupiter Olympus Maximus, and you were all suspiciously absent during Sol Invictus, no doubt at one of those "Helloween" parties where you dress up like strumpets and do so disgrace the purity of the vestal virgins and by consequence Rome herself!!!
Why, if you ask me, Rome has no need for these new agey hypocrisies of forgiving gods and atheism!!! You are a disgrace to the gods and unfit to walk among them!! To speak as if you mortals were their equals is deserving of CRUCIFIXION!!! Such is the price of your immorality! Repent! Bring sacrifices by the temple and there may be hope for you yet!
The time is nigh, we must act to appease the true gods before the barbarian hordes do swell around the Palatine, engulfing this great city and casting us into a stinky atheist barbarian dark age!!!!
[–]DigitalCliteracy 23 points24 points25 points 8 months ago
Your username means exactly what you think it means. Upvote.
[–]ApostropheEverything 14 points15 points16 points 8 months ago
A delightfully religious take on Gradual_Nigger
A++ Would upvote again!
A delightfully' religious' take' on Gradual_Nigger' A++' Would' upvote' again!
A delightfully' religious' take' on Gradual_Nigger'
A++' Would' upvote' again!
FTFY
[–]ElenaxFirebird 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
Seems like people are catching on to your novelty account. Nice work.
[–]palparepa 6 points7 points8 points 8 months ago
aatheists.
[–]abbiistabbii 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Or Deists.
[–]blue_strat 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
Or agnostics.
[–]olivaw456 5 points6 points7 points 8 months ago
It reminds me of Chris Rock talking about eating pork "When I die, I'm pretty sure my diet isn't gonna come into question."
[–]lose-loose_police 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
It might if God was a devout vegan.
Or if you ate live infant babies.
[–]fujimitsu 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
But how else is christopher reeve supposed to regain his superpowers?
[–]ok_you_win 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
Who doesnt?
[–]Breker 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
Don't bother arguing. These days the world is filled with people on their high horses about how they don't eat the newly-born and that they are somehow better than me because of it. Sickens me to see what society has becomes.
[–]MJtheProphet 22 points23 points24 points 8 months ago
Its a wonderful sentiment. I agree that it seems like a great way to reach theists. But many times, no matter how good the quote, or how good a life you live, they refuse to be reached. Why? The book says so, famously in Ephesians 2:8-10:
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
[–]luke37 18 points19 points20 points 8 months ago
James 2:14-26 is a pretty good rebuttal to faith-only arguments:
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
[–]banuday 13 points14 points15 points 8 months ago
I think the rebuttal to that statement is right there in the passage. faith without action is dead, that is, not faith at all. if you truly have the spirit of god in you, if you truly have offered yourself up to Christ, action is natural because that is what you were made for.
[–]mstksg 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
True faith causes deeds; if you don't have deeds, obviously you have no faith.
Contrapositive, etc.
[–]Juggernutz 7 points8 points9 points 8 months ago
I think it's a very powerful statement that the bible gets quoted more here than in /r/Christianity
[–]WoollyMittens 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
If you actually read the bible and try to make sense of it, you instantly lose your religion. Therefor Christians employ specially indoctrinated priests to read them selected bits and tell them what to think.
[–]Aemina 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
Whoa.
[–]OptimusYPrime 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Oh well. They aren't reached. Carry on with noble life.
[–]CrazyEddie041 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
I guess we can't use most of the New Testament, either.
"Paul confesses that "beyond measure" he persecuted the "church of God" prior to his conversion. He took part in the murder of the proto-martyr, Stephen."
[–]Law_Student 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
It's just as well, Paul shouldn't be listened to for his various bigotries besides.
[–]LtDanHasLegs 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
THANK YOU
Came here to say this.
So glad to hear of your interrupted plans.
[–]soulcaptain 5 points6 points7 points 8 months ago
Unnecessary, comma.
[–]zygoootiz 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
Aurelius was a Stoic.
[–]swiftthrills 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
Sorry, but this is a repost. Also, like last time, no one can properly cite this quote. Therefore, this quote is misquoted.
http://redd.it/ih8xj
[–]red_drank 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
It's a repost of a repost of a repost. I was the original poster and creator of the image. Like many others, I believe that the quote stands for itself and debating over who actually said it is pointless and irrelevant.
[–]swiftthrills 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Debating who said the quote is very important.
You mislead! Now you have 100s of Atheists believing a false quote.
[–]salad10203 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
I don't care if this was said by a drunk under a bridge, it makes sense and its true.
[–]Infinitist 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
This addresses, to some degree, several forms of polytheism and monotheism, but not all. In particular, this is where most atheists fail to ever address Christianity. They understand it to be a religion in which God came to Earth as a man to show us how to lead the perfect life. If you live by those markers, then you will go to heaven. However, this (as a few posters tried to point out) is terribly incorrect.
Monotheism itself assumes an absolute God. Not a slightly-better-than-regular-people God. An absolute, infinite being. If we think about the concept of absolute truth, it is not reasonable to expect unjustness. God is truth, God is just. The nature of infinity introduces a tautology to the situation, though not necessarily an incorrect one.
Christianity in particular embraces that concept of absolute perfection and sees a finite man as discrete point on the spectrum of "good," far from the perfection of God. In fact, there is NO good enough. You can spend all your life being the best person that ever lived and not be good enough to approach a being that is considered to be infinite, perfect love and goodness. The crux of Christianity is that because of that separation, only God could cross the divide to reconnect mankind to him. The "salvation" or "gospel" Christians speak of is a recognition of this connection in the form of Jesus Christ.
Thus, one is never good enough. One is only cognizant of their need for God or not. If one is aware of the need and believes that God has bridged that gap, one's affections for that action should lead to adoration and imitation. In other words, you'd talk the talk and walk the walk. However, one never stops being finite, or man, until death, and thus remains imperfect in action. (Just because a person believes that Jesus saved them in the eyes of God does not suddenly mean they are unable to do wrong.) Christians who truly embrace this theology find that their life's work becomes strengthening that belief and improving upon their adoration and imitation of God.
Also, death in the Bible is not physical death and hell is not necessarily just a fiery pit with painful stuff. It is considered to be a separation from God. Thus the entire theology becomes connection to or separation from God as determined by one's acceptance of (1) a need for God to bridge the gap and (2) the belief that God has indeed bridged that gap.
[–]StridentLobster 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
It's one way to do so, yes. Ridicule is another. Reasoned argument is another. Combinations of various proportions or reason, ridicule, and compassion is yet another.
The one thing it is not, however, is the proper way to use a comma.
[–]Forehead58 5 points6 points7 points 8 months ago
That, is not how you use a comma. It is, an excellent quote though.
[–]haiku_robot 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
[–]DatoWeiss 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
Anything in any way beautiful derives its beauty from itself and asks nothing beyond itself. Praise is no part of it, for nothing is made worse or better by praise.
[–]IndianaBones11 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
Fun Fact: Marcus Aurelius was a stoic. Stoicism is the philosophy where members complete and utter balance in all things involved with life. Once you obtain this goal stoics had no problem with the act of committing suicide. I learned this in philosophy 101
[–]cannabist 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
I am reading the wiki article. I loved this quote from him:
Say to yourself in the early morning: I shall meet today ungrateful, violent, treacherous, envious, uncharitable men. All of these things have come upon them through ignorance of real good and ill... I can neither be harmed by any of them, for no man will involve me in wrong, nor can I be angry with my kinsman or hate him; for we have come into the world to work together...
[–]koavf 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
Here's something that Plato really wrote and put into the mouth of Socrates (long quote--tl;dr is that there is a reason to hope for the afterlife and not fear death):
Let us reflect in another way, and we shall see that there is great reason to hope that death is a good, for one of two things: - either death is a state of nothingness and utter unconsciousness, or, as men say, there is a change and migration of the soul from this world to another. Now if you suppose that there is no consciousness, but a sleep like the sleep of him who is undisturbed even by the sight of dreams, death will be an unspeakable gain. For if a person were to select the night in which his sleep was undisturbed even by dreams, and were to compare with this the other days and nights of his life, and then were to tell us how many days and nights he had passed in the course of his life better and more pleasantly than this one, I think that any man, I will not say a private man, but even the great king, will not find many such days or nights, when compared with the others. Now if death is like this, I say that to die is gain; for eternity is then only a single night. But if death is the journey to another place, and there, as men say, all the dead are, what good, O my friends and judges, can be greater than this? If indeed when the pilgrim arrives in the world below, he is delivered from the professors of justice in this world, and finds the true judges who are said to give judgment there, Minos and Rhadamanthus and Aeacus and Triptolemus, and other sons of God who were righteous in their own life, that pilgrimage will be worth making. What would not a man give if he might converse with Orpheus and Musaeus and Hesiod and Homer? Nay, if this be true, let me die again and again. I, too, shall have a wonderful interest in a place where I can converse with Palamedes, and Ajax the son of Telamon, and other heroes of old, who have suffered death through an unjust judgment; and there will be no small pleasure, as I think, in comparing my own sufferings with theirs. Above all, I shall be able to continue my search into true and false knowledge; as in this world, so also in that; I shall find out who is wise, and who pretends to be wise, and is not. What would not a man give, O judges, to be able to examine the leader of the great Trojan expedition; or Odysseus or Sisyphus, or numberless others, men and women too! What infinite delight would there be in conversing with them and asking them questions! For in that world they do not put a man to death for this; certainly not. For besides being happier in that world than in this, they will be immortal, if what is said is true.
[–]lacedaimon 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
I'm so tired of this false meme being posted on r/atheism, it makes us look stupid. Just pick up a copy of Marcus Aurelius' "Meditations" and read it. It's a great book, and it's not even that long.
Aurelius was arguably the best of the Roman emperors, but he made one huge mistake in making his son Commodus the successor to himself, when previous emperors chose the best candidate for the job (called 'the adoptive emperors'). Rome never recovered...
[–]thesearmsshootlasers 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
That's not what happened. Haven't you even seen Gladiator?
[–]lacedaimon 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
For about 10 seconds I thought you were serious.
;)
[–]livingthedream 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
This is a pretty loose translation (more like a composite) ... but it really doesn't matter, does it? It doesn't have to be a genuine quote to be genuinely good advice. I wish all atheists and theists would live by these words.
As for Aurelius, even though he was a theist, he was the original "you can be good without God" proponent. Every person who has any aspiration to be a decent human being should read Meditations.
My favorite (for today) Aurelius quote:
"Observe, in short, how transient and trivial is all mortal life; yesterday a drop of semen, tomorrow a handful of spice or ashes. Spend, therefore, these fleeting moments on earth as Nature would have you spend them, and then go to your rest with good grace ..."
[–]takatori 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
Yeah, no.
I posted this quote on a forum my dad visits and got a 2-page letter about how God does exist and loves me and wants me to return to Him.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
this is also how you can appeal to atheists. I'm a Christian, and trust me, not ALL of us are crazy. Judge men by the quality of their character, not their race, sex, or religion.
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
Reddiquette asks that you please don't post images of text.
[–]banuday 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
But it's got a cool statue....
[–]DrSpork 7 points8 points9 points 8 months ago
That's a great quote. Sadly most Christians would say its dead wrong, and God will put you down even if you have lived a good life.
[–]iforgotmylegs 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
Well I guess the point has gone right over your head already.
[–]DrSpork 11 points12 points13 points 8 months ago
Please, ellucidate it then. I think this is absolutely sound logic. However, most Christians would dismiss it because they think fear is enough of a reason to worship a god, even if unjust (this is the core of "Pascal's wager")
[–]KidDaedalus 6 points7 points8 points 8 months ago
Most interpretations of Christianity teach that good works are useless for achieving salvation - that faith in Jesus Christ is the only way into God's grace. Their God cares very much about how devout you have been and rather less about the virtues you have lived by. I believe this is what DrSpork was referring to.
[–]p3ngwin 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
agreed, and spot on.
[–]napoleonsolo 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
You, on the other hand, immediately jumped to "Christians" and made your own assumptions on what "most" of them would say.
He didn't "jump" to them, he gave an example, and he didn't make assumptions, he accurately described their religious beliefs.
Excuse me. The title is "how you appeal to non-atheists". The vast majority of non-atheists i meet are Christians, and I think this quote would be a highly ineffective way of appealing to them. If this is not about "reaching theists", why is it titled as such? I am responding to the title, not the content of the quote (which I agree with).
[–]TheSkyImpending 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
McJudgerson, you not only earned an up vote but also a book mark, cheers!
[–]RageMeat 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Can anyone make a higher res version of this? I would like to have this as my background
[–]kristoferolafsson 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
http://imgur.com/knyWI I made this a while back, but changed it slightly because of the objections that he didn't write that exact phrase in any of works. also added source of the marble bust.
[–]shazang 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
I gotta have my motherfucking Aurelius, even if it's a misquote.
Meditations is, like, the healthiest thing you could ever read.
[–]houssc 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago*
This quote is not from Marcus Aurelius.
http://threeshoutsonahilltop.blogspot.com/2011/06/marcus-aurelius-and-source-checking.html
Funny.. I came to that conclusion as a child, then read that quote many years after. It's a very good quote though.
I'd say everyone came to this conclusion as a child. The conclusions of children are more pure than the conclusions of adults.
[–]mko1991 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
scumbag son just had to kill him... if you get the reference C:
[–]mephistoA 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
here is where christianity redefines another word of the english language: just. they declare by fiat that their god is just, and therefore fully justified in sending (almost) everybody to hell.
[–]Danzaemon 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
I completely agree with the sentiment.
But my experience with Xtians strongly suggests that many of them (particularly those in the Deep Southern U.S.) wouldn't appreciate it. They seem to believe you can be total bastards -- as most of them are -- if you put all your faith in their distorted version of the Jesus Christ character. In their minds, Jesus is a caucasian with a well-trimmed beard and a mullet, who speaks English and doesn't like furriners, libruls, or homeless people.
[–]Lolazaurus 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
We really need to get the "atheism = no morals" thing out of people's heads. This quote is a great way to put it.
[–]Poopfinger 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
I have unsubscribed to /r/athiesm because normally I find it just plain annoying. However, the combination of stumbling upon this and dealing with the recent death of one of my friends, it made my night. Bravo.
[–]stupidisawayoflife 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Said like a true atheist...awesome! I'm crying...
[–]blackcrowes 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Interestingly, I was one of the keynote speakers at my church's Youth Sunday service (I am indeed a Christian, please don't be closed-minded); this is along the lines of what I told the congregation at all three services. The first was the contemporary service and yielded me some strange looks from the crowd - ironically my atheist friend was there in the front row, so I ended up just talking directly to him. Then I spoke to the conservative morning service and got some rude looks and some "Good job, kid" 's from the members after the service.
Essentially, I told them to act in a Christian way (be kind; love thy neighbor; generally be tolerant to others because it is not our place to judge) - not because it would gain them entrance to heaven, but because it is the morally "right" thing to do.
btw, I entirely throw out Leviticus when saying like like that.
[–]soulcaptain 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Well this one is the real deal, by Epicurus.
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
— Epicurus, philosopher (c. 341-270 BCE)
Not according to christianity ... If you don't accept Jesus as your savior you're going to hell anyway.
[–]NUMBERS2357 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
I agree with this sentiment, but it's worth pointing out that many theists don't. In particular, Christianity and Islam both teach that God does care specifically about your beliefs, not just your actions.
Now, some Christians and Muslims may believe that good people of all religions go to heaven, but that's contrary to what their holy books actually say.
[–]aryat1989 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them.
This is a terrible argument to use against religious folk who are taught that unfaithfulness will get them hell. I'd venture to say that the fear of punishment due to unfaithfulness is why many people are religious. They won't just stop worshiping because they feel their god might be unjust.
[–]patchsonic 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
well said marcus.
[–]Dnile1000BC 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
This will not convince Christians. Christians are taught that life has no meaning without God. No matter how 'good' you are, your righteousness is as rags before God (Isa 64:4-9). All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23). Only through Christ can you be saved (Jhn 14:6, 3:16).
No reason or logic can sway the truly devout Christian mind because they have built up shields of denial taught to them by their pastors. They do this because it saves them the pain of trying to understand the illogical malevolence of their God.
[–]panflip 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Non-atheists? Theists even?
[–]Bazing1980 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Why the fuck would I want to get through to religious people? Atheism isn't a religion, I'm not bringing them some gospel or trying to convince them. They want imaginary Skywizards, so fuck em.
Why would you claim this quote to Marcus Aurelius? Its fine by itself. Its just like a reddit geek to assume they need MOAR proof.
[–]Qwuffl 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
I wish i could unsubscribe from r/atheism, because constant reposts, lame FB conversations and text-next-to-picture-you've-seen-a-thousand-times is annoying as fuck, but then i wouldn't be able to understand r/circlejerk.
Seriously, atheism is such a big theme, why would you be so fucking boring about it?
[–]about_14_of_them 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
That is how you appeal to a rational theist, one willing to listen to arguments and entertain the notion that it is possible to be good without god.
It's not particularly effective on a taliban or a southern baptist fanatic like Andrew Schlafly, for whom devoutness is the definition of good.
If you manage to get the rational theists on your side, you've already won.
[–]14mit1010 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Just to nitpick, if there is an unjust god, it will reward those who worship to it, so you should worship in that scenario.
Just saying...
(If spending 2 minutes a day praying to Hitler kept you alive, who wouldnt do it?)
[–]Hennaz 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
The, comma was unnecessary.
[–]Yewbert 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Come on guys, we know this already. Logic doesn't work.
[–]a_stray_bullet 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
He used the term Non-Atheists? ... cringe
[–]EmbraceTheRage 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Not gonna work. These religious nutjobs are beyond reproach and reasoning.
[–]dcsinsi 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
The problem is god created this universe for himself. So this whole thing is about him, creation, you, me, the earth, everything. To live a good life and deny the one who made it is what Christians are worried about. They see you not living in a way that honors him, yet still being morally good, they still worry about your existence after death. Weird I know, but that's why it matters.
[–]RUnerdy 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
For me, religion just seems like living on Earth just so you can die. I agree with this 100%; I want to spend my life helping others and doing good things for people instead of being scared of some imaginary deity.
[–]kabukisteve 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
This gets posted every god damn week.
[–]sapunec7854 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Just so you know - as good as it is this quote is missatributed.
[–]somerandomtext 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
As a non-atheist, I find this quote appealing.
[–]VA1N 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
This is one of my favorite quotes right up there next to "Time enjoyed wasted is not wasted time." I enjoy this quote so much, I immortalized it in the best way possible...as my facebook quote.
[–]rudifer_jones 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Catholic here. I thought I'd let you know this is one of the better atheism posts I've seen in a while. You're doing it right. Thank you.
[–]sproket90 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
do people that post this kind of drivel have jobs and a life..?
[–]The_Determinator 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
This is how you repost.
[–]atreyucof 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
The author of that quote is actually unknown. Marcus Aurelius was actually a devout polytheist.
Unjust God, I never considered that. What if the Gods, are a bunch of pricks that are fucking with us - like a kid burning ants with a magnifying glass. That would explain a lot.
The middle one doesn't follow.
If there was an unjust God (and an eternal afterlife) I most certainly WOULD want to worship him, so as I could go to the good afterlife, rather than the bad afterlife. Him being unjust doesn't change the fact that not worshipping him will send me to hell for eternity.
But which unjust god, and which rules am I supposed to follow? If this god says Activity A will send me to hell, but that god says Activity B will send me to hell, and what point do you just say, why bother worrying about it at all? If there is some god and he is unjust, odds are you picked the wrong god and are screwed. Given that you have no idea what the odds are, why even play? Why not live the best life you can, and see where the chips fall?
[–]NotActualIrony 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
He's saying that, on principle, why as a noble person would you want to worship something that isn't? If you are noble, you will not worship an unjust god because, regardless of consequences, he is still unjust.
[–]swordmaster006 20 points21 points22 points 8 months ago*
Marcus Aurelius never said that. This is another pure invention of the internet, like the "P.S. The student was Einstein!!!" story.
Edit: Since this hit the front page, some seem bothered by my calling-out of what I feel to be a mis-attributed quote. I will gladly rescind it and make a thread correcting myself if and when someone points me to a printed translation of Marcus Aurelius' works that says something resembling the sentiments expressed in the OP. Until then, I feel justified in saying that Marcus Aurelius never said this, and that this is something only ever found attributed to him on the internet or in very recent publications that are sourcing the internet without looking into it. And no, this doesn't pass muster. It's not even close to the same sentiments.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Marcus_Aurelius#Misattributed http://threeshoutsonahilltop.blogspot.com/2011/06/marcus-aurelius-and-source-checking.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheist's_Wager
[–]kristoferolafsson 56 points57 points58 points 8 months ago*
no but he did say this: "To go from among men, if ther are gods, is not a thing to be afraid of, for the gods will not involve thee in evil; but if they indeed they do not exist, or if they have no concern about human affairs, what is it to me to live in a universe devoid of gods or devoid of providence? But in truth they do exist, and they do care for human things, and they have put all means in man's powers to enable him to fall into real evils. And as to the rest, if there was anything evil, they would have provided for this also, that it should be althogether in a mans power not to fall into it. But that which does not make a man worse, how can it make a man's life worse? But neither through ignorance, nor having the knowledge, but not the power to guard against or correct these things, is the possible that the nature of the Universe has overlooked them; no is it possible that it has made so great a mistake, either through want of power or want of skill, that a good and eveil should happen indiscriminately to the good and the bad. But death certainly and life, honour and dishonour, pain and please, all these things equally happen to good and bad men, being things which make us neither better new worse. Therefor they are neither good nor evil" ~ Marcus A. Edit: source: http://books.google.com/books?id=uJFfAAAAMAAJ&dq=if%20there%20are%20gods%20marcus%20aurelius&pg=PA67#v=onepage&q&f=false
[–]xyroclast 18 points19 points20 points 8 months ago
So basically he did say what the quote says, albeit in different language, and I should downvote swordmaster006?
[–]mleeeeeee 7 points8 points9 points 8 months ago
No. Evidently nobody here is bothering to read the two passages. They are about different topics.
[–]KolHaKavod 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago
Did you read the two? There's no way they could simply be two different translations of the same original quote.
The first remains unsourced and is likely an innovation.
[–]graymonster 5 points6 points7 points 8 months ago
Yes, because to be honest, Marcus Aurelius said neither of these things. He didn't speak English. Translated quotations are always interpretations. Downvote the hell out of swordmaster for being a nitpicky fuck.
[–]swordmaster006 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago*
Um... No? That second quote doesn't say anything even resembling what OP's quote says. The second quote is basically a response to the problem of evil.
[–]PerogiXW 10 points11 points12 points 8 months ago
"Be careful of quotes on the internet, for they are not always reliable." -Abraham Lincoln
[–]vanostran 9 points10 points11 points 8 months ago*
Shut your f'in mouth, Abe.
-Mohandas Gandhi
[–]PerogiXW 14 points15 points16 points 8 months ago
"Nigga, you gay." -Voltaire
[–]vanostran 5 points6 points7 points 8 months ago
You want to say that to my face?
-Chevy Chase
[–]Overeacting 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
I will not have your accurate quotes in this thread. Won't have them!
[–]Paux 7 points8 points9 points 8 months ago
This, and the fact that it's been posted at least 10 times here.
Do you have a source for the quote? A way for us to evaluate whether your claim is accurate?
[–]swordmaster006 17 points18 points19 points 8 months ago
The quote is just the "atheist's wager", a response to Pascal's wager that started getting popular around atheist circles on the internet a few years back (circa 2007). Damn, I feel like I could write a history book on "Atheism and the internet".
Atheist's Wager
Marcus Aurelius and Source Checking
[–]skaggmannen 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
Thanks for posting this link. It really should be posted automatically every time someone in /r/atheism mentions Marcus Aurelius.
I think that the sentiment of the quote is a really good one, but putting Aurelius name on it just makes it another unbased "argument by authority".
[–]ckallas2 9 points10 points11 points 8 months ago
Scumbag atheist: Places the burden of proof on the poster who questions the quotes veracity rather than on the OP who asserts the quote is accurate.
[–]sydneygamer 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Scumbag redditor: points out a flaw in the logic of a person who constantly points out flaws in other people's logic.
[–]fuckingassbitchshit 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Alright, people may not agree with me here, but just wondering; if there does end up being a God like is described in the Bible, for instance....how many people would actually want to go to Heaven? I know the other option is hell, but still...idk.
[–]aecarol 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
If the God of the Bible were real (i.e. Book of Revelations, all non believers to be tormented for all eternity in a lake of fire) I would not worship him on principle and I would consider myself morally superior.
[–]ILoveThisWebsite 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
I'm pretty sure every non-atheist that I share this with would say something that is utterly idiotic and have no appealing insight into this. I say this from experience of bringing great ideas to non-atheists.
[–]Togedude 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Atheist here, but frankly, there's quite a gaping hole in that logic.
Assume that you for some reason are convinced that deity X exists. If you worship him, you will be brought to eternal paradise. If you refuse, you burn in hell.
Yes, he's "unjust" by this standard, but does that really override your desire to not suffer for eternity? This almighty being gets the last laugh no matter what; might as well join him.
Going against an all-powerful god simply because you don't like his methods isn't noble or heroic; it's just stupid. I understand that most of us in this subreddit feel the need to rebel against religion since it's blatantly illogical and we were spoonfed it our entire childhood, but delusions of grandeur like this just make us look pompous.
[–]Freckledfiend 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
as an atheist who was raised in the Church, i know this argument just wont fly with serious Christians. they arent worried youll be a bad person because you are Atheist, they are worried that because you wont have a relationship with God and because if you have no relationship with God, he supposedly wont let you into heaven. i mean its a good appeal to most half heart Christians, but my mom is Catholic and my dad is a Seventh Day Adventist (yes, they are divorced). this argument would work not at all with either of them.
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago
Look, I don't care what you classify yourself religiously.
I only care about how you act towards other people. Whether they are christian, judaism, Muslim, or ... gasp protestan.
Fuck their religion, it's about how people act.
[–]MayorEmanuel 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
This has been annoying me for a while so I want pick away at this "unjust G-d" thought process. For some odd reason Christians are the only ones who buy into the idea of eternal hell (I do not understand where this idea came from as nothing in the Old Testament would support it). No other modern faith does this even remotely to the degree of Christanity.
Judaism for example people of all faiths are judged the same way where you look on how your life may have turned out if you made the right choices, note this process does not change for any faiths.
In Islam most people would agree that if you follow the teachings of G-d (not necessarily believing in Him, but this would largely depend on the opinions of the person). In Islam the idea of Hell is mostly likely not eternal only the truly evil would be there for eternity.
Hinduism and Buddhism share the idea of Karma (do good things and good things will happen), this idea would span all beliefs and would not hinge on the belief in Hinduism and therefore in doing good you are probably going to stay human, as you have to lead a "perfect life" to remove yourself from the Wheel of Karma and being born in an easy life does not make things easier for you.
What is "G-d"?
[–]Bliss86 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago
Judaism does not prohibit writing the Name of God per se; it prohibits only erasing or defacing a Name of God. However, observant Jews avoid writing any Name of God casually because of the risk that the written Name might later be defaced, obliterated or destroyed accidentally or by one who does not know better. Observant Jews avoid writing a Name of God on web sites like this one because there is a risk that someone else will print it out and deface it. To avoid writing the Name, Orthodox Jews (and sometimes other denominations) substitute letters or syllables, for example, writing "G-d" instead of "God."
[–]nonsensepoem 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
It's what Yahweh-ists type in place of "God" when their bronze age superstitions (names are powerful juju!) get between their fingers and their keyboard.
[–]RaisingCain 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
Having studied both traditional Sunni and "Salafi" strains of Islam, I can say quite confidently that at least in those confessions the concept of unending "Hellfire" is very explicitly taught, and it is the fate of all of those who commit "shirk" (idolatry) in this life or who reject a "valid prophet" (of which Islam says Muhammad is both the greatest and the last.)
The Quran is pretty unambiguous, as is the Sunni interpretation on this point - while Allah can forgive any sins he chooses to in the afterlife, he will not forgive "shirk." Murder? Rape? Theft? Potentially forgivable. Idolatry - not a chance. Presently (and arguably for some time now - as in centuries) the Roman Catholics have a far less sectarian belief about "Heaven and Hell" than orthodox Sunnis do. So your generalizations about Christianity are not accurate either.
P.S. I have no pony in this - I'm secular, and find no evidence for deities, their alleged oracles, or an after life.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
..
[–]elliottstanger 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I'm not a defined atheist, but I live by this creed every day. I see church as a place of like-minded people who do good deeds. I'm very involved with my church and I regularly do work camp trips (Habitat for Humanity), not because it's solely "God's work" but because I'm doing things with a group of people I like for people that need help that I can supply.
[–]Nilradical 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
This is how you appeal to some theists. Some are concerned with meta-ethics, and need to know that ethics doesn't have to flow from divine judgment, sure.
But some are concerned with the question of fact, and would want to know if they were wrong but genuinely don't see the problems with their current reasoning.
Some are concerned with community, and need to know that they'll have one even if they abandon their current beliefs. (We could do better here.)
And some are concerned with not looking stupid, and need to be made aware that their beliefs are not helping in that regard.
No one voice will convince or even make peace with everyone (pretty clearly), and it's a good thing that we have so many.
Bollocks.
[–]jwitt1983 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Anyone have a wallpaper of this?
[–]strehlowism 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Some justice that is. Whatever.
[–]Simple-ish 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I really like this quote. It's so well rounded. You would have to be insane not to agree.
[–]SA0S1N 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
you can't use this on theist, they will point the the scripture where it says go to church or auto hell. I gave up on the sheep long ago.
[–]jorgander[] 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Sigh... no. Even if he did say it.
[–]weforgottenuno 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
This is how you appeal to proper English grammarians.
[–]captainpuppy 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Who cares who wrote it, it works.
[–]CorneliusCobb 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
What is a "non-atheist"? A person with a better vocabulary than you?
[–]toastyghost 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
this, is, how, you, piss, off, a, person, who, understands, punctuation.
[–]Holy_Ravioli 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Let me tell you about persuasion in psychology: There is an elaboration likelihood model that demonstrates why some arguments are more appealing than others. I think it is clear that while atheism is absolutely flawless in it's central route method (that which appeals to logic), there has always been a certain something to be desired in it's peripheral method (that which appeals to emotion). This type of post supports those appeals, and hence draws more attention. It's a DAMN GOOD THING. I argue that embracing secular concepts promotes more compassion.
[–]ProfessorD2 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago*
Marcus Aurelius is almost as bad of an example of how to appeal to Non-Atheists as it gets, if by "Non-Atheists" you mean to include the Christians.
[–]ginemesis 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
tl;dr... don't be a dick.
[–]KobraCola 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Hey! That Marcus Aurelius jerk totally stole Lance Armstrong's quote!
"At the end of the day, if there was indeed some body or presence standing there to judge me, I hoped I would be judged on whether I had lived a true life, not on whether I believed in a certain book, or whether I'd been baptized. If there was indeed a god at the end of my days, I hoped he didn't say, 'But you were never a Christian, so you're going the other way from heaven.' If so, I was going to reply, 'You know what? You're right. Fine.'"
[–]Urbano35 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
God/gods in most religions claim to know all that is right, so making this argument is pointless. How would man know what is universally good, just, or noble?
[–]lukecool215 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Why can't we get good quotes like that anymore in modern time.
[–]marcus_da_king 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurelian_Honor_Society
[–]MoreVinegarPls 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
An amazing man. I enjoyed meditations immensely for the insight into such a powerful man's thoughts, stresses, and eventual acceptance of death.
[–]cody_au 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I've never met a religious person who would fall for that. Of course, they often fall back on it as their defence when they've done something that is technically wrong according to whatever their make-believe story is, but as a general rule of thumb for them or others to follow? They'll think it's not good enough.
Just kill a few people they really love. Then they'll come around.
[–]jacemonsta 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I am having one of the shittiest nights I've had a in a while. This made me feel a little better about myself.
[–]thrawnie 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Or, as I like to call it - the ultimate smackdown to Pascal's wager :p
[–]Qwapz 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I'm not exactly Christian but who are we as humans to tell God (if he does exist) whether or not they're being just? We attribute our own definition about what being "just" is, and God does not and should not have to conform to our imperfect expectations of what it means to be just or anything else.
[–]thesearmsshootlasers 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Unfortunately, this won't fly with most of the more popular contemporary gods, because they are all attention whores who demand worship.
[–]dkla 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Hear hear....
[–]DasKrabben 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
What about anon-non-non-non-atheists?
[–]toosleepyforthisshit 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Quoting Marcus Aurelius might not be the best choice when talking to a Christian... He did kill an awful lot of them.
[–]savingrain 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I never understood why a righteous God would punish you for not venerating it as long as you were a nice person anyway.
[–]Miller369 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Nice words...updavote
[–]bman86 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
This is not to anybody specifically, but to specifically everybody. Please, share this with anyone you know.
[–]Vesperidone 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I don't think people realize how crazy superstitious the greeks and romans were as cultures. Most of them were fervent believers in Gods, quite literally as magical people in the sky, and even manifested on earth in instances. Do we forget the fate of Socrates?
How does this invalidate the point of the quote?
[–]Zenodox 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Technically though it does not exclude devotion, it merely say's it is irrelevant. A theist could then use some sort of Pascal's wager argument to continue to believe.
But it does show that belief and virtue are not connected.
Totally true, its the middle part I think that sort of counters the Pascals wager. Pascals Wager works off the assumption that faith is what God values most, in other words the middle proposition above. Pascal says if its eternal bliss at stake better to appease God then not to. This however ignores the loving and forgiving God that modern Christianity talks of.
Basically if pascals wager is the how things actually work then it i saying that God is not loving or forgiving, and only cares whether you worshiped him or not. I would then ask if that is the God they believe in or not?
[–]piratgeneralen 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Herp derp, wait what, i don't even, wut :3
[–]Minerva89 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Good old Marcus Aurelius. The true emperor!
[–]euryalus0 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
I guess I'm kind of late on all this, but ever since I was a teenager I've had a copy of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations and Epictetus' Enchiridion. It's helped bring me back to the important things in life. On another interesting point, Shakespeare and others stole bits from these two books such as "The world's a stage..."
[–]yoshi314 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
there was a clever discworld fragment that expanded on that thought.
now, if only i could find it :/
[–]daychilde 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
On behalf of /r/discworld...
This is very similar to the suggestion put forward by the Quirmian philosopher Ventre, who said, "Possibly the gods exist, and possibly they do not. So why not believe in them in any case? If its all true you'll go to a lovely place when you die, and if it isnt then you've lost nothing right?" When he died he woke up in a circle of gods holding nasty-looking sticks and one of them said, "We're going to show you what we think of Mr Clever Dick in these parts...".
:-)
This is beautiful.
all it takes is a username and password
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is it really that easy? only one way to find out...
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