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This is not a difficult concept (i.imgur.com)
submitted 9 months ago by [deleted]
[–]nanananananana 269 points270 points271 points 9 months ago
I feel like this is an over simplification of a much larger issue that warrants a complicated and in-depth discussion.
[–][deleted] 89 points90 points91 points 9 months ago
A discussion which is not necessarily contingent on the existence of god, which is what this subreddit is supposed to be about.
[–]nanananananana 35 points36 points37 points 9 months ago
Exactly, well stated, it should really be in another subreddit.
[–]imrickjamesbyach 27 points28 points29 points 9 months ago*
"Welcome to r/atheism, the web's largest atheist forum. All topics related to atheism, agnosticism and secular living are welcome here."
That's how I interpret this. People on here tend to think that only religious people are against abortion. I'm against it except in very few circumstances.
[–]kosherkant 28 points29 points30 points 9 months ago
Also as someone who considers himself a believer in science I must point out that an egg that you eat has not been fertilized. The argument is not that a woman's ovaries are people but that a fertilized one is. I am pro-choice but if we want to prove the point to we really should get the facts straight.
[–]blazemore 14 points15 points16 points 9 months ago
The problem is, you come across as a moral absolutist when you get hung up over when it becomes a "person".
The moral absolutist says "Killing people is wrong" and must decide when the foetus becomes a person.
The moral consequentialist says "I aim to minimise suffering", and looks at the suffering the mother would endure (physically and emotionally), as a fully formed nervous system, versus the sufferring (if at all) of a barely developed bundle of cells.
Honestly, I think that the real pro-life / pro-choice arguments boil down to this. Each side is unaware the other exists, and is frustrated that the really obvious answer is being overlooked by the other. Really, they're having different arguments.
The pro-lifers think the pro-choicers are setting an arbitrary deadline on when an embryo has a "soul"
The pro-choicers think the pro-lifers care more about an unborn baby than a fully born mother, father and their families.
[–]BreSput 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
You don't have to be a absolutist to think it's wrong and you don't have to be a consequentialist to think it's permissible. If those were the only choices I'd side with absolutism. As it stands, I'm not an absolutist, but I don't think utilitarian considerations come into play here at all.
I think it's permissible not because it minimizes suffering, but because a fetus is not a person. Incidentally, were it somehow shown that fetuses were persons, I would reverse my decision. This is the difference between my position and the utilitarian's. If fetuses are persons, then so long as the mother isn't put at undue risk consequentialist arguments fail. The value of the life of persons can't be put on a scale. If it's a person we ought not kill it. (this leaves room for abortion in cases where the mother is at risk, or the child would not be a person, as is the case with some birth defects; it would not leave room for abortion in the case of victims of rape or incest).
This is all kind of besides the point--though interseting--because fetuses aren't persons. I guess my main point is that you're setting up the debate in terms of a dichotomy that it need not be set up in terms of.
[–]subarctic_guy 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
for clarification: does the term "person" mean the same thing to you as "human being"?
[–]Lareine[] 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago
Well said on all counts.
My position is: Abortion is wrong in that denying a fetus its future life causes more suffering (or lack of happiness, perhaps) than forcing the mother to go through a pregnancy. However, in our society as it stands now, criminalizing abortion would cause more harm than good, in the form of disenfranchising women and the poor and putting unwanted children on the streets. Let's work on better birth control availability, sex education, adoption/foster systems, and public health care - then we'll talk abortion laws.
Sorry, I digress, couldn't help weighing in. But I agree 100% that moral absolutism is problematic, and the issue is complicated (and not straight up religious) from a consequentialist standpoint.
And absolutely, the pro-choice and pro-life movement are pretty much ships passing in the dark at the moment, when in fact their ideals would both be best served by working together on the aforementioned social issues.
Anyways, I guess I didn't add much that's new, but kudos for a good post!
[–]RushofBlood52 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
Where do you draw the line of the difference between a fetus and any other potential child, though? I mean, I can make the same argument with not even a fetus. I mean, using protection with ex-girlfriends was denying our potential children a future life, was it not?
That's pretty much my whole issue with this thing. Every day we are denying the lives of an infinite number of potential children. Why is the line drawn at a fetus?
[–]kbilly 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I mean, using protection with ex-girlfriends was denying our potential children a future life, was it not?
Nope. Because you don't have evidence a life was made, or a life could have been made if you didn't wear protection.
Every day we are denying the lives of an infinite number of potential children.
Every day a male urinates seamen into a toilet bowl. Please focus on actual human life.
Why is the line drawn at a fetus?
A fetus is the beginning stage of human life. You, me, everyone here has at one point in there existence gone through that stage. You could then say we were an egg and also a sperm at one point so why not treat them with the same definition of life? But that argument falls apart because alone, and egg or sperm is not a human life. Only when combined. And even then there are trials it must to through to become a successfully gestated human.
[–]RushofBlood52 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Isn't the whole argument whether or not a fetus is a person or not? You can't just say that is a fact and use it as the answer as to whether or not a fetus is a person.
[–]Lareine[] 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Sorry, I don't have the time/energy for a proper answer at the moment, but I'll give you the Cliff's Notes: Basically, I value human life + personhood (or potential for it). Any living human has a claim on all its future happiness as a person. So the fetus has the right to its future personhood because it is alive and human. A permanently braindead person, on the other hand, is a living human but has no future personhood to protect. I suppose you could argue that a sperm has potential (although I'd say without the full genetic code, that's a stretch), but it definitely is not alive.
[Note: When I say "values" and "rights," I'm saying that's the code I think society should adhere to. I'm not appealing to some objective set of ethics.]
[–]redditaccount69 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
FYI, absolutism and consequenstialism are not at odds. In fact, most consequentialists are realists about moral facts (see Derek Parfit's new book.)
Also, the strongest form of deontology (rule-based ethics), which you seem to associate with religion, is contemporary Kantian constructivism, which is not realist (or absolutist.)
Questions about ethics and personal identity are entirely distinct from religious questions in their contemporary form.
[–]blazemore 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Has an atheist ever murdered a doctor who provided abortions?
[–]vita_benevolo 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
This guy/gal gets it. An embryo is a growing developing human being. There is no doubt about that. The point is that we can kill that embryo long before it really has any self-realization and so who really cares? You could even kill an infant and that infant wouldn't really know the difference. It just gets easier and easier the less developed that human being is. In case there is ambiguity in my comment, I am definitely pro-choice and think that in many cases an abortion is the better decision for both the mother/father and the child, but I don't try to pretend that it isn't/wasn't a real human being.
[–]subarctic_guy 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago*
im a bit confused with your reasoning here.
i understand your argument to be:
killing is objectionable because the one killed has self-realization and would "know the difference". fetuses and infants lack this capacity. therefore killing fetuses or infants is not objectionable.
what confuses me is that unless there is an immortal soul, no person -fetus, infant, child or adult- is self-aware in death. therefore nobody can "know the difference" between being alive or being dead. that leaves me with:
if killing is objectionable because the one killed has self-realization and would "know the difference". and if all humans -fetus, infant, child or adult- lack this capacity. then killing any human -fetus, infant, child or adult- is not objectionable.
if nobody can tell the difference between being dead or alive, then why is killing objectionable at all?
i'm not trying to put words in your mouth etc, i am just considering your argument. :)
[–]OKImHere 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Moreover, he's implying that since both fetuses and infants lack the capacity to be self-aware, killing a fetus is equally as immoral as killing an infant. Yes, I've got to agree with him there. It is very immoral.
[–]vita_benevolo 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Sorry, I see what you are saying and maybe my choice of words was not the best. What I meant to say was that no fetus or infant really has any true self-awareness or ability to understand what it would even mean to be killed. Don't know if that makes it any better to kill them but it does make it easier on our consciences.
I don't try to pretend that it isn't/wasn't a real human being.
well i agree with you here.
the question then becomes: are we ever justified in killing a human being. i think there are reasons that justify killing another human, but usually those arent the reasons that people have abortions.
[–][deleted] 9 months ago
[deleted]
the question then becomes: are we ever justified in killing a human being.
What this doesn't address is that in the confines of a mothers womb, you dont get to ask that question. That question, doesn't apply. Is it killing? Yes, is it murdering? No. Is it ending a human life? Yes, yes it is. Does it constitute some moral outrage and you can label it murder? Nope.
[–]SaltyBabe 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
To a point, many people are anti-birthcontrol also. Because an egg is not produced? I don't know how you can be anti-BC, because you're literally treating ovaries like people.
[–]Gwinntanamo 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Ovum, not ovaries - ovaries are the organ.
ova, not ovum - ovum is singular. ;p
[–]EpistemicFaithCrisis 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
The Catholic opposition to birth control has nothing to do with considering eggs to be people.
those who argue that humanity begins at conception can acknowledge the analogy
acorn : oak : : embryo : adult
but an unfertilized egg and a chicken, or silk and a dress, don't relate to each other in the same way at all.
[–]dustinechos 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I believe Christopher Hitchens also is against abortion.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
contingent
[–]tratingstok 28 points29 points30 points 9 months ago
Don't worry the other three times this over simplification was posted to this sub reddit it was met with the same response.
[–]passwordisBLU -1 points0 points1 point 9 months ago
Everyone just read the past posts and stop upvoting this please.
Also this one
[–]biiko -1 points0 points1 point 9 months ago
I'll upvote whatever i want, thanks
[–]HypGnosis 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
It's this type of trash that embarrasses /r/atheism every day.
[–]heavensclowd 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Nah man abortion is super simple.
[–]BreSput 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Nope. Have already forwarded this image along to the APA and the Presidential Commission for the Study of Bioethics.
[–]jt004c 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
There have been several very-well-educated looks at this over the years.
In fact it breaks down to what the poster conveys quite succinctly. The difficult question isn't whether or not an embryo is a human (it's not). The question is: at what point the thing developing inside a woman become enough like a person to warrant being considered one legally and morally.
Brain activity, sensation, and form all come online in their "human-like" form at around the beginning of the third trimester.
Lo-and-behold, this is when abortion becomes illegal in the US.
The law gets it right.
succinctly
The difficult question isn't whether or not an embryo is a human (it's not).
kudos for pointing out that the first question is whether the unborn is human. I'm wondering what persuaded you that an embryo is not a human.
[–]rockhopper92 103 points104 points105 points 9 months ago
This has been posted eight fucking times with the same exact title. ಠ_ಠ
So, I'm just going to post the obligatory counter argument and be on my way.
[–]spirit_spine 11 points12 points13 points 9 months ago
I answered "No" to all of your questions. I win.
[–]daman345 5 points6 points7 points 9 months ago
The tree should be a yes I think, now that it's been "born" and is living indepenatly
[–]spirit_spine 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
It's a sapling.
[–]lordarthien 6 points7 points8 points 9 months ago
"Tree" and "sapling" are not mutually exclusive terms.
[–]douglasdtlltd1995 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago
Still living independently.
[–]fluoromethane 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
In that case, it's not an accurate comparison. Just like the originals.
[–]bigups43 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
the camera one is wrong, but the others are fine.
[–]subarctic_guy 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
One of these things is not like the other.
[–]buzzbros2002 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago
we're talking at conception though.
[–]prose-before-hoes 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Also considering with abortion, we would be aborting the fetus, not the semen, which is something I never got about the picture.
[–]dorkrock 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
Well... there are two things to consider:
Many Christians oppose the day after pill, which essentially "aborts" the fertilized egg that has divided a few times.
Almost all abortions carried out in the U.S. are of embryos, not fetuses. There is a massive, massive difference.
[–]acquiredsight 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think your description of the day after pill is quite accurate. After all, if a woman isn't ovulating, it could take several days before an egg is released and fertilized. The morning after pill forces a woman to menstruate so that there's no warm squishy uterine lining for a (fertilized) egg to hang out in. Thus, in some cases, the morning after pill prevents the egg being fertilized entirely.
[–]dorkrock 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Sometimes being the key word. Other times, a freshly fertilized egg is flushed out when the menstruation is forced...
… no warm squishy uterine lining for a (fertilized) egg to hang out in. . . prevents the egg being fertilized entirely.
I think you mean "prevents the egg from being implanting."
[–]KirstenDunstChin 44 points45 points46 points 9 months ago
The type of egg which you eat is unfertilized, which may be equated to a women's period, not an embryo, which eventually becomes a baby.
[–]dorkrock 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago
You've never lived on a farm...
[–]tiyx 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
Not me, I eat have developed bird in the shell, mighty taste boiled and fermented.
like this
[–]What_Is_X 10 points11 points12 points 9 months ago
A seed, once planted, also has the potential to become a tree. Nevertheless, it is not a tree. The potential for object X to become object Y does not make object X object Y.
[–]EarlofSammich 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
That acorn would be considered Quercus alba, but the sperm alone is not its own organism and so calling it Homo sapiens would be inaccurate, where as calling the zygote Homo sapiens would be reasonable.
sperm entering an egg is similar to pollen fertilizing an ovum (plant), a (fertilized) seed entering the ground is similar to a zygote implanting into the lining of the uterus.
[–]danhxcore 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Yes, the seed has the POTENTIAL to become a tree once it is planted, however, an embryo is planted and is a life (for some). I'm simply just stating the argument you're failing to see here.
[–]What_Is_X 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Yeah sure it's not a perfect analogy. Yes, an embryo is alive. No, a collection of cells is not a human life. It does not resemble a human, does not have a brain, nor a personality, nor anything one could identify as a human. A monkey is far more human than a 2 week old collection of cells.
[–]ricketgt 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago*
You're implying something like [X' = Y]
It's more like [X' + Z = Y], where Z stands for any number of inherent biological processes that occur that eventually lead to Y. Note that [Y-Z != X'], as in it's impossible for a tree to reverse back into it's original seedling self without undergoing some form of reproduction (e.g. creating more seeds).
So have you ever seen a tree that started off huge? No, because part of the life cycle of a tree is that it starts off as a germinated seed. This part is an inclusive and required step for the life of the tree, and without that phase, there is no tree. It's the very beginning stages of the tree's genetic makeup expressing itself in tiny seedling format that ensures the tree's survival. Yep, sounds like it's 'alive' to me (at least from the moment when the seed is germinated anyways.)
[–]What_Is_X 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Yes, a group of cells is alive, just like a bacterium. But is it a human life, capable of conscious thought and action? No.
[–]Slacktoo 27 points28 points29 points 9 months ago
But the question is, when does it become a "person" with human rights? How can we all agree on when that is? Should aborting a baby 2 days before it's born be legal?
[–]ZugTheMegasaurus 16 points17 points18 points 9 months ago
If it's only two days away from being born, you could get it out without killing it, no abortion necessary. I tend to look at it this way: women should have the right to remove the embryo/fetus/etc. from their body at any time.
If it is incapable of living at all based on its stage in development/gestation (as a week-old embryo would be, for example) then it's pretty clear that it shouldn't have been considered a person. At the other end of the spectrum, if it survives the removal from the uterus, then we call it a person (just as we would any other person who has been born).
Admittedly, this is by no means perfect. There's definitely difficult ground in the middle (fetuses that would have a very low possibility of surviving but a possibility nonetheless). But we're still talking about something that may or may not be a person, depending on who you talk to. On the other hand, we know with 100% certainty that the woman carrying it is, in fact, a person. I'm not comfortable with suspending the rights of someone who is definitely a person for the sake of something that might be a person.
[–]Theskyishigh 5 points6 points7 points 9 months ago
My grandma used to be a nurse in Wales. She told my mother and father that they laid unwanted 'babies'/'foetuses' on cold slabs and could hear them even crying sometimes as they died. I wouldn't want to be the the person who had to make the call on the cut off time.
Also the doctors tried to persuade my mother to have an abortion and put a request forward to have her sterilised because both my parents are blind. One of my parents' visual impairment is congenital and they didn't think she should breed. My dad has run his own business all his life. My mother worked and then raised four healthy, happy and intelligent children.
I still can't come to any kind of stance on the issue of abortion, other than parents are entitled to have some real choices.
[–]ZugTheMegasaurus 5 points6 points7 points 9 months ago
Thanks for sharing that. I'd say that your grandmother's experiences just go to show that these aren't easy issues by any means. But I'd also think that, with modern technology, a fetus capable of crying after being removed from the mother could easily be made to survive (don't take my word for it though; I'm not a medical expert).
As to your parents' story, I think that supports the idea that no one but the parents should have the authority to say whether or how you can reproduce. The doctors who said your parents shouldn't be allowed to have children were clearly wrong (and assholes, to boot).
[–]Theskyishigh 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
I was thinking exactly that about technology. It was a very different time.
And thanks - I think they were assholes too. Way to make expectant parents feel totally inadequate and undeserving. By the way - they are amazing parents.
[–]EarlofSammich 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
The doctors can't tell you the future, so they give you probabilities. And 'shouldn't' and 'shouldn't be allowed' are two very different things.
[–]helloreddit16 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago
If it is incapable of living at all based on its stage in >development/gestation (as a week-old embryo would be, for example) >then it's pretty clear that it shouldn't have been considered a person.
I don't think its capability of life is much of an argument philosophically. A 2 year old wouldn't make it without close attention of its parents/guardian. Although there are notable differences between the two, my point is this: if it has the capacity/potential to grow into a healthy human being, I'm uncomfortable with the idea of preventing it from reaching that potential. Any one of us could've been aborted.
I'm pro choice as far as law goes because I know abortions will happen even if they're made illegal so it's a lesser evil to keep it at least safe. But, unless it's a result of rape or there's a danger to the mother, I'd prefer to give it a chance.
[–]ZugTheMegasaurus 7 points8 points9 points 9 months ago
I don't think its capability of life is much of an argument philosophically. A 2 year old wouldn't make it without close attention of its parents/guardian.
While it's true that a two year old cannot survive without the care of someone else, it's not for remotely the same reason that an embryo cannot survive without its mother. Conflating the two really doesn't make sense.
A two year old cannot survive on its own as a matter of skill and ability. But it is not reliant on its mother for that survival; any person can take care of it. As long as someone helps the two year old obtain food, water, and shelter, it will survive.
None of those things is true of an embryo. An embryo is dependent upon its mother for survival as a matter of its physical makeup. It does not possess its own blood supply or organs or anything we could even call a body (depending on the point in gestation). It cannot be removed from the mother without dying, even if someone identical to the mother tried to take care of it in the same way.
my point is this: if it has the capacity/potential to grow into a healthy human being, I'm uncomfortable with the idea of preventing it from reaching that potential. Any one of us could've been aborted.
You're certainly allowed your own philosophical belief on that, but I simply don't agree. Sure, any of us could have been aborted, but I don't see why that should matter. If you define "us" from the point of conception, then any of us could have failed to implant and died then, or been miscarried, or had something affect our development during gestation and become entirely different people. None of that really impacts anything.
I don't find "potential" particularly convincing either. Even if we say that an embryo is a potential human being, its mother is still an actual human being. To give the embryo a right to develop is to trample upon the mother's rights to bodily autonomy (and I realize that you said you support abortion as a necessary evil; I'm just talking abstractly here). I've yet to see a convincing reason that we should accept that.
[–]matlick 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
One day, when embryos can live in artificial wombs instead of the mother, the abortion issue will be much less problematic because you would no longer need to carry a baby for 9 months and could give it up for adoption at any point.
[–]Buffalox 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
Most countries have ethic boards to review this. I think most where it's legal agree that before the formation of a nervous system it's OK, after that it becomes much harder, and it's only allowed if the mothers health is threatened, or there is something wrong with the fetus.
or there is something wrong with the fetus.
i don't get how this justifies killing them.
[–]Buffalox 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Well in my opinion there has to be some sort of consciousness for it to be immoral. By something wrong, we are usually talking heart outside the body and stuff like that. Is it justified to kill a perfectly healthy and happy cow?
What would be your definition of when it is justified to kill anything?
Is it justified to kill a perfectly healthy and happy cow?
i can't think of any reason why not. in fact i would prefer that any beef i ate had come from a happy healthy cow, rather than some miserable feedlot beefzombie.
[–]Kombat_Wombat 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
It doesn't matter if the baby is a human or not. No one should force anyone to potentially sacrifice their life or well being for another human being. Imagine if the government started telling you that you had to donate kidneys or other organ parts to your child.
It doesn't matter if the baby is a human or not.
of course it does. If it's not human then it doesn't matter if you kill it.
No one should force anyone . . .
being conceived is not an act of will. the fetus isn't forcing the mother to do anything. it is a passive party.
No one should force anyone to potentially sacrifice their life or well being for another human being.
This argument cuts both ways: The unborn's life should not be sacrificed for the life or well being the mother.
[–]Kombat_Wombat 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
of course it does.
It doesn't matter if the baby is human or not in this line of argument. If we can show that even if the baby had personhood and abortion were okay, then surely if the baby was not a person, abortion would also be okay.
This argument cuts both ways
The fetus cannot stay alive without the mother. The mother can live without the fetus. In this exchange between two people, the mother is offering her body as a vessel whereas the baby only offers a threat to the mother.
Saying that the unborn's life shouldn't be sacrificed for the mother is like saying that I'm killing a person who will die without a kidney simply because I have both of mine intact and am choosing to not offer my kidneys.
Imagine if the government started telling you that you had to donate kidneys or other organ parts to your child.
That's not as bad as having to donate your whole body.
Agreed.
[–]servohahn 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
The general age limit is the age of viability. The time when a fetus could survive outside of the womb. The problem is that different fetuses reach this age at slightly different times. However, all fetuses that can reach viability do so before t-2 days of a healthy and natural birth. So no, 2 days before birth would never be considered a valid time period for abortion so long as you define individuality as viability.
The issue is fuzzier from around 21-24 weeks, when fetuses begin to reach viability.
[–]DARTH9999 5 points6 points7 points 9 months ago
6 months?
Aborting a 2 day old ball of cells should be legal.
[–]Slacktoo 9 points10 points11 points 9 months ago
Right, I said 2 days before it's born, not 2 days after conception.
Possibly, but any point we choose between conception and birth will ultimately be arbitrary.
[–]tratingstok 7 points8 points9 points 9 months ago
23 weeks
http://www.marchofdimes.com/pregnancy/faq_bornearly.html
This seems a little less abitrary.
[–]Bolnazzar 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
An infant wasn't considered a person until it was more then a month old in the time of the Bible, so why not?
[–]EarlofSammich 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
My point is, shouldn't our ethics be a little more constant and independent of technology? It seems unsettling to base our principles on the progress of science.
[–]hollywoodbob 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
When you get down to it, unwanted pregnancies will be dealt with, they always have been. It's unfortunate, but it's a fact of life. It is possible to abhor the concept of abortion, while understanding that there are worse alternatives. I'd rather women have a safe option that will leave them with the opportunity to have children in the future, than the alternatives of injury, illness, sterilization, or even possibly death.
let X be an abhorrent behavior (pick one, just make sure it's abhorrent: rape, genocide, child slavery, murder, etc.)
behavior X is impossible to completely eliminate.
there are things worse than behavior X.
therefore:
ಠ_ಠ this doesn't work with behavior that is truly abhorrent.
[–]hollywoodbob 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
It works for drug abuse, when people aren't criminals for illicit behaviors they're more likely to seek safe treatment for it. [See Portugal's success with decriminalization]
Maybe abortion isn't as abhorrent as some people think?
[–]DARTH9999 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
My mistake lol.
[–]helloreddit16 5 points6 points7 points 9 months ago*
That 2 day old ball of cells has as much potential to grow into a productive member of a society as a bigger ball of cells 2 days before it's born. Or a 5 year old ball of cells for that matter.
If you ever want to get anywhere with these kind of discussions you can't act like an ignorant asshole.
I'm pro choice as far as law goes because I know abortions will happen even if they're made illegal so it's a lesser evil to keep it at least safe. But, unless it's a result of rape or there's a danger to the mother, I can't sign off on it cause I think the kid deserves a chance, even if his parents are too dumb to use the rubber and/or something else.
I think anyone vaguely intelligent will agree it's a moral grey area to say the least, instead of radically arguing one side or the other.
[–]Gemini4t 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
While I'm pro-life, this statement is false. Half of all pregnancies miscarry, most long before women even realized they were pregnant. The 2 day old ball of cells has much less potential to grow into a productive member than the 9-month old fetus, because the odds are stacked against them getting to that point.
[–]helloreddit16 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I was making a point, it doesn't matter how old the fetus is. You can't even abort 2 day old ball of cells.
Also a few weeks/months old baby has much less chance to grow up than a 5 year old because of its undeveloped immune system and things like sudden infant death syndrome, but you wouldn't argue it's somehow worth less than a 5 year old, would you?
[–]Gemini4t 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
No, I wouldn't, but I would argue it has less potential to make it to adulthood.
Also it's been suggested that maybe up to 80% of SIDS is infanticide.
Half of all pregnancies miscarry
And 100% of 20 year olds end up dying. ;p
The 2 day old ball of cells has much less potential to grow into a productive member than the 9-month old fetus . . .
The probability is different but the potential is the same.
I know abortions will happen even if they're made illegal so it's a lesser evil to keep it at least safe.
Wouldn't it be a lesser evil to just have less of the evil thing?
unless it's a result of rape . . . I think the kid deserves a chance . . .
Don't you still deserve a chance if your father was a rapist?
I imagine carrying a child of someone who raped you would be pretty fucking traumatizing and it'd be completely unfair to ask someone to do it.
[–]tratingstok 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago*
The rule that I would follow is when can the baby survive outside of the womb? How pre mature could a baby be born and survive? In that moment terminating the baby should be considered murder. I am not sure when that moment is and I don't think we can pigeon hole it to a specific day but we could get a good estimate that would then generally apply.
(edit: 23 weeks would be my cut off)
[–]Heavy_Rain 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
How does that make any sense? The ability of a fetus to survive outside the womb should have nothing to do with its right to live. Thanks to medical progress, 6 months old fetuses can now survive outside the womb, 30 years ago they couldn't. Also, a premature fetus in New York is going to have a significantly higher chance of surviving than a fetus somewhere in a third-world country.
But yet neither the time nor the place a baby is born should determine its right to live, should it?
The right to live is a human right. It applies to all humans regardless of dependence on others for survival.
We're not talking about a time or place, we're talking about viability and, in return, individuality. A fetus that hasn't reached viability is dependent on its mother. Viability occurs between 21 and 23 weeks although the survival rate is low and people born at this stage are generally expected to have numerous health problems.
How does that make any sense? The ability of a fetus to survive outside the womb should have nothing to do with its right to live.
A fetus outside the womb before viability can't live. It isn't a matter of rights. In our society no one's right to life is ever dependent on responsibilities taken by another. It is always theoretically possible to live without the intervention of a specific other unless the person in question chooses to die. Further, the right to life argument contains within it the hidden assumption that, even if nonviable fetuses have the right to not be aborted, that this right trumps the right of a mother to control her own body. We have, as a society, decided by the rule of law, that the mother's right to privacy and control over her body is not trumped by the fetuses right to remain in the mother's womb until viability. This would remain true even if a nonviable fetus were considered a person with rights because the mother is also a person with rights.
[–]ergerge1 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
While I'm heavily pro-choice, you have completely missed Heavy_rain's argument. You're acting like "viable" is some magical line that a fetus can reach. It's not. It's a judgment call. He's pointing out exactly what is wrong with simply placing the judgment on that line. You can't say "A fetus before viability can't live" and refer to all times. it's likely that "viability" will be completely different in a few years.
Also, saying "we have, as a society" is another case of ridiculously self centered reasoning. The society you live in, at this point in time, has decided this but still constantly fights over it. Not all mankind, for all time.
I think women MUST have the right to choose, but please stop using this type of insane reasoning. It insults both sides.
also, viability's other weakness it the idea that at some point in the future we may advance to the point where a human can develop completely outside the womb. that would mean that ANY stage of development is viable beginning at conception.
[–]Heavy_Rain 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
We're not talking about a time or place, we're talking about viability and, in return, individuality.
But you can't deny that viability is heavily connected with time and place. Maybe we can someday breed embryos to be fully healthy babies without even the need of a mother's womb. Following you, we mustn't kill any embryo, when we reach that particular point in the future. I don't know if you would agree with that.
A fetus outside the womb before viability can't live. It isn't a matter of rights.
While that is true, I cannot see how it changes anything. Just because a fetus cannot survive outside the womb (in that particular time and place), it doesn't necessarily mean you're morally free to kill it.
However, I wouldn't mind your line of 21-23 weeks, especially with strong reasons such as rape, but I can't follow your overall argument. I'd still go with the ability to feel pain to determine whether or not we should take a living being into moral account at all. This again, doesn't mean that a fetus with the ability to feel pain should always be protected, we just need good reasons to kill it.
[–]servohahn 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
The fetus may have the right to life. Assuming it does, it still does not have to right to require another to support it. No one in the entire world has this right. Babies can be raised by anyone. Doctors can quit their job or push patients onto others. Fetuses require their own specific mother and therefore, unlike anyone else in the whole world, the mother is obligated to perform a function/service/whatever for another at least until it is born.
but the question is of the rights of a fetus inside the womb, so it is a matter of rights.
In my opinion, any fully healthy fetus has a right to live, as soon as it's able to feel pain. If it cannot feel pain and has no consciousness, you're free to kill it (i.e. embryos) I say fully healthy, because the whole thing changes if the fetus is in some way handicapped (e.g. the fetus is known to suffer from a genomic mutation, such as trisomy 14, which will inevitably lead to death a couple of days after its birth, most likely even earlier. I would vote to kill such a fetus the earliest moment possible, instead of waiting until:
the fetus itself can feel pain (so it will obviously suffer from the abortion)
the fetus is maybe even born, allowing the parents to see the baby, only to watch it die a couple of days later, probably making them feel a lot worse than if they had an abortion
Note: Rape is actually an exception from my statement above; it's also a good reason for an abortion, even if the fetus is fully healthy and has the ability to feel pain. I value the suffering of the woman bearing the child higher than the pain the fetus would feel when being aborted. But apart from that, I see no argument to kill said fetus (e.g. trivial things like the parents suddenly decided they don't want to have children just now).
I value the suffering of the woman bearing the child higher than the pain the fetus would feel when being aborted.
keep in mind that the suffering of the woman who bears the child is in comparison to the suffering of the woman who aborts the child + the suffering of the child - the potential flourishing of the the child had they been allowed to live.
[–]mmccaskill 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
It's a person whenever the baby (or adult) jebus inserts the soul. If you say instantly then I raise the point of identical twins as the split isn't instant. But I forgot, it's all part of the plan herp derp.
[–]realdev 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
The only tenable answer is viability.
[–]MrArtless 13 points14 points15 points 9 months ago
Don't repost images that don't even make good arguments. This is not a difficult concept.
[–]slashgrin 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
Ceci n'est pas une pipe.
[–]A_Monocle_For_Sauron 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
Have people already forgotten about karmadecay.com
[–]viavant 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
even mississippi agrees
[–]MatthewEdward 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
You really don't get the abortion debate do you?
[–]Dontinquire 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
This is not a chicken - but if it was I'd feel no wrong when I kill and eat it. This is not a tree - but if it was I'd feel no wrong chopping it down and burning it to stay warm. This is not a dress - but if it was I'd feel no wrong by tearing it. This is not a person - but since it's going to become one I'd feel wrong if I harmed it.
Would you feel wrong harming an egg, or a sperm, even though they could also become people? Probably not.
The "pro-life" argument revolves around a completely arbitrary point in human development to draw the line- the zygote/conception. The potential for a human comes before this point, as a sperm and egg are both able to potentially become human, and isn't secured at this point, as miscarriages are possible.
inb4 "DNA". DNA is just a blueprint. Blueprint =/= finished product. Downloading the blueprint for a car is not grand theft auto. Burning an architectural blueprint is not arson. Destroying something with a human blueprint is not murder.
[–]Dontinquire 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
The line is drawn at conception (for me anyway) for the simple reason that 1,000,000 sperm are certainly all able to become a human but the fact is 999,999 of them will not. In practical terms it's silly to worry about a womans 250,000 eggs or a mans billions of sperm. The moment they fuse together and create something new, that's when life takes place. As far as blueprints go, I don't think that's an adequate comparison. A blueprint will not independently form a building. A blueprint for a car will not turn into a car months later. If that were the case it certainly would be stealing and they would be much more heavily guarded. Imagine a scenario where blueprints transformed into something over time, do you think their theft would then be considered a serious crime?
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago
A blueprint will not independently form a building. A blueprint for a car will not turn into a car months later.
DNA- the human blueprint- will not turn into a human either.
As for a zygote, it will not turn into a human on it's own, it requires the mother.
And again, just because it can turn into something does not mean it is that something yet.
If you stop two people from having unprotected sex, it's possible you have stopped a child that would have formed, but that doesn't mean it's possible you murdered a child.
[–]ricketgt 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago
Every sperm cannot become human, all by itself. Only one (+/- a few) for every female egg present in the same environment is able to fuse to create a zygote, which is the first living cell that begins a self-deterministic set of actions to ensure replication and self-sustainability (This is the essence of life!) You cannot have conception without at least 1 egg and at least 1 sperm. That's a fact. Your argument about sperm's ability to become a human is false, it's only a combined (sperm+egg) zygote that is truly capable of becoming human. Every single one of us today was a zygote of one cell at one time. Show me someone who skipped this step and I'll show you someone who will admit life does not begin at conception.
[–]HyperbolicGeometry 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
What I don't understand is what this has to do with belief in a god.
[–]haroldp 6 points7 points8 points 9 months ago
You know what's not a difficult concept? This is r/atheism. It's a subreddit about atheism.
Welcome to r/atheism, the web's largest atheist forum. All topics related to atheism, agnosticism and secular living are welcome here.
Discussions about politics unrelated to atheism belong over there
[–]nanananananana 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
Or in two X chromosomes, we're always talking about this stuff.
[–]lepurkanking 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago
Another example of how much shit r/atheism regurgitates on a daily basis. Ugh...
[–]wanking_furiously 5 points6 points7 points 9 months ago
Unlike every other sub-reddit where every post is original...
[–]lepurkanking 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
True but it seems that this subreddit is especially prone. Hell im drunk, so what do I know?
[–]wanking_furiously 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
There isn't really a lot else to do here. Once every argument has been posted, there is nothing to do but to post them again.
[–]bc16 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
It is ok to abort until my closet is exhausted of coat hangers.
[–]noseforsharpies 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
I think the thing that upsets many of the 'Personhood' fanatics is the fact that the embryo represents a human potentiality that would have otherwise come to fruition. It is seen as interfering with God's will, never mind the fact that abortion might just be included in such a Plan ( assuming a Plan exists, which it probably doesn't ).
[–]rainbowsandlove 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
I'll tell you what they all are. Tasty.
[–]bananosecond 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
More people should check out Walter Block's evictionism view. He argues that life begins at conception, but that a mother has a right to evict the baby in the most gentle manner possible.
Just as you shouldn't immediately shoot a trespasser in your yard with a bazooka, you should not eliminate the fetus if it is viable on its own. If the fetus is not viable, the mother should not be enslaved to bear the baby and may have an abortion, even if it is morally frowned upon.
[–]Konrad4th 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Obviously it's justified when the fetus endangers the mother, but I'm having trouble justifying an abortion when simply not having sex is an option. Shouldn't we take responsibility for our actions?
we should take responsibility for our children.
[–]stan11003 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago*
It doesn't matter. We eat chickens, clear cut trees, get dresses from sweat shops and have abortions. Whether it's a cluster of cells or a 23 week old fetus it boils down to inconvenience. We like to pretend we are better than our forefathers who owned slaves and raped the Native Americans but we are made of the same stuff as they were. Society has decided that its legal to end a pregnancy not because of privacy or female rights but because unwanted kids shame our daughters, cause us to drop out of school, impoverish families, make it harder to leave a husband you hate and when they grow up they are more likely to mug you when you are walking down a dark alley. The world hates bastards, abortion is just the modern solution to an old problem. Why do think people spend so much money on fertility treatments rather than take in someones "mistake". Is Life sacred? 100,000+ real living talking walking human civilians died in Iraq for nothing, your average pro-life crusader doesn't cry for the baby who was in the wrong place at the wrong time when a bomb dropped on there house. Why? Because deep down they think that a future terrorist was aborted so that they can be a little bit safer. Don't delude yourself Humans are selfish at the core, Kindness is a fluke not the norm.
[–]MrVop 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
A child at birth isn't a person either. Just a screaming pile of cells.
people are screaming piles of cells too...
[–]MrVop 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
oh so then an egg cell combined with a sperm is a baby?
[–]Farmingtool 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
I'll kill all of the babies I want, and no one's going to stop me.
[–]fenderbender 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Doesn't potential mean anything to you? Fuck.
[–]TheLonelyStranger 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
A) An unfertilized chicken egg is not a chicken. A fertilized chicken egg is. B) That's a plant, not an animal. C) That isn't even alive. D) A sperm (The picture looks like a sperm, I don't study this stuff) isn't a human. A fertilized egg is.
This is not a difficult concept. Yes, I am atheist. Yes, a fetus is a human.
is it ever justifiable to kill another human?
[–]TheLonelyStranger 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
No, no it isn't.
[–]UnPlug12 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Arg...in need of a different picture of human embryo. [Plus, not really sure if this goes here or politics] As a female, I support abortion rights, but using an image of a sperm about to penetrate an egg means nothing. An actual image of a fetus, when it still looks like most other mammals, seems more applicable. Also, I am against very late stage abortions unless the mother's life is in danger. That is why my own mother avoided catholic hospitals because she worried for her own welfare, not just her future child's.
I am against very late stage abortions ...
why only very late stage?
[–]UnPlug12 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Well, I see it as a woman has had 6+ months to make a decision and it's a bit messed up that she would wait to the last stage of pregnancy to abort the child when she can just as easily [though not emotionally easy] put the child up for adoption if she finds she will not be able to care for it. There are, however, situations that may call for a late stage abortion, like for the health of the mother.
If you are asking why I am pro-choice, it's just that: I want to have control over my own body. I want the choice to do what I need to do. Being pro-choice does not mean I would automatically get an abortion, it is just another option I would have. Also, if abortions were made illegal [like when anything else is prohibited] people will look for ways around the law. Back-alley abortions are dangerous and far worse than any social stigma surrounding a woman who has an abortion, no matter what her reasons for the procedure.
[–]IISynthesisII 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
You can kill chickens, you can cut down trees, you can burn dresses.
[–]the_mind_outwith 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
This is not a valid argument.
[–]TheLiberalSoup 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
this is not a repost
[–]Eric578 6 points7 points8 points 9 months ago
life begins at conception, other definitions don't make sense. deciding if a fertilized egg deserves personhood is the issue.
[–]S11008 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago*
Not so sure about that [that personhood is the issue]. If they're human, in their essence, why differentiate?
They're simply underdeveloped human beings, as an infant, child, or teenager is.
[–]ZugTheMegasaurus 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago
That's something of a misrepresentation. An infant, child, or teenager is only an underdeveloped human being if you define only adults as human beings.
[–]S11008 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Not so, and in fact my post necessitates that I do not define only adults as human beings.
Re-read what I said:
They're simply underdeveloped human beings
[–]ZugTheMegasaurus 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Right, I understood that. I think I may have been unclear in what I was trying to say, so I'll rephrase it.
If I understand your comments, you are saying that we shouldn't differentiate between embryos/fetuses and the rest of us because they're human beings, just underdeveloped human beings in the same way infants, children, and teenagers are.
But that's not true. Infants, children, and teenagers are actually fully-developed human beings. They are not adult human beings, but that does not make them underdeveloped. The only way that a child could be considered an underdeveloped human being is if only adults are considered fully-developed human beings.
But that's not true. Infants, children, and teenagers are actually fully-developed human beings. They are not adult human beings, but that does not make them underdeveloped.
If this were the case, they would not still be maturing.
Of course, we could make the argument that all human beings are changing in some way, but what I'm saying is that a child is less close to being an approximation of the essence (or form, if you like) of human, than an adult is, and thus, underdeveloped.
[...]what I'm saying is that a child is less close to being an approximation of the essence (or form, if you like) of human, than an adult is, and thus, underdeveloped.
I simply cannot agree with that and I have a difficult time seeing how it could be true. It also does seem to suggest that being a fully-developed human being requires adulthood. A child is no less human than an adult. They are smaller, more simple-minded, and incapable of successfully caring for themselves, but those are not the sorts of traits people use to differentiate between embryos and the rest of us.
Biologically-speaking, children and adults share many qualities that neither of those groups shares with embryos. These are things which distinguish them from embryos as human beings.
Embryos can only receive nutrients by taking from the mother's blood supply; children and adults eat food from outside sources. Embryos rely entirely on the body of another person just to survive; children and adults have bodies independent of others.
These are only a few examples, but I think they illustrate what I'm trying to get across. Embryos are underdeveloped in a way that children are not. An embryo's inability to survive independent of its mother is a matter of biology and physical makeup while a child's inability to survive independent of its mother is a matter of skill. Only the mother can keep an embryo alive while a child may be cared for by anyone.
It also does seem to suggest that being a fully-developed human being requires adulthood.
I doubt any particular could simply be the universal, but that they are all approximations of the universal-- as is the same for man in his essence. He doesn't fully realize the essence, but comes closer.
A child is no less human than an adult.
I agree, they still have the essence of humanity, as the adult does. In this way, we are equal. However, there are lesser and more approximations of that essence-- a disabled human is less of an approximation to the form than one without that privation, but they are still human. In the same way, one with less being in relation to its essence is less of an approximation, as a child is less of one to an adult, and an embryo is starkly less than either of the two. Yet they're all still humans.
They both are sustained from outside sources, they just have different sources.
I think I see the fundamental disagreement, and that is a matter of metaphysics and biology. I was unclear-- I'm not only using underdeveloped to refer to biological inadequacies, but a metaphysical privation.
[–]ergerge1 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
What you're saying is a non-argument though. You're saying there is a magical definition of "human" or an "essence" as you call it, which only you seem to understand. I could say this essence of humanity is ONLY present in fetuses, and thus once a child is born, they should be viable for termination. You can't say "things relate to an idea I have in my head that has no definition". It's a ridiculous argument.
You're using platonic ideals, which is frankly insane. It's not a representation of reality. Definitions are almost always arbitrary by nature. Saying a disabled person is "less human" assumes there is a model for them to fit. There isn't.
You're saying there is a magical definition of "human" or an "essence" as you call it, which only you seem to understand.
It's not really magic, and an essence isn't some sort of mystical thing. It's just what it means to be "x" (a universal). Of course, I'm not a Platonist, so I don't think there are Forms just floating around in an abstract reality, I'm a moderate realist.
I could say this essence of humanity is ONLY present in fetuses, and thus once a child is born, they should be viable for termination.
Not really, no.
You're using platonic ideals, which is frankly insane.
Not a Platonist, or a rationalist.
Saying a disabled person is "less human" assumes there is a model for them to fit. There isn't.
This is just begging the question against universals.
[–]EarlofSammich 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago*
There is the important detail that children cannot yet reproduce (one of the criteria for something to be living). They have the potential, but so does the fetus for a lot of things.
We haven't finished forming our bones, brains, hormonal cycles when we're born and not even until puberty. We are not fully developed humans at that time.
[–]JGSPuppet 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
So where does red become orange in a color gradient?
halfway to yellow, duh. ;p
And to what degree of accuracy with respect to significant digits must the wavelength of light be in order to be classified as "orange" and not some other color? Is there an arbitrary range? I'm saying pretty much nothing in life is ever black/white unless you're talking abstract ideas out of mathematics or things like that.
[–]Londron 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Any period before there is brainactivity is fine by me as at some level brainactivity=life and vicanversa, no brainactivity ended to me means they prevent life rather then kill it.
[–]tiyx 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago
You do know that even jello shows brain activity right ? A sign of brain activity is not a sign of awareness or consciousnesses. Many parts of the brain are on auto pilot a lot of the time.
[–]samisbond 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I'm unsure as to the relationship between brain development and brain activity and I can't find where they say brain activity begins. Do we actually have an answer to this?
Imo its about activity of the brain, with other words if you touch the hand can the brains registrate this.
Im honostly said just assuming science has an answer to the question of wjen rhis begins?
Itsnnot exactly an important topic to me.
isn't that 4 or 5 weeks after conception?
[–]townshend445 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Scambled chickens are fucking delicious.
[–]nartdk 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Umm, maybe the concept is difficult. And apparently you don't quite get that.
[–]SgianDubh 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I agree, not a religious concept, but a terribly bad logical argument. Reaching valid conclusions from ignorant argument still makes you look ignorant, and that ignorance gets imputed to your conclusion by your arguee. Not that I am conceding your point is valid in this particular case; in my mind, if you started a human, that's what you'll be ending when you end what you started. I'm pro choice, but I believe that by the time sperm gets a chance to find the egg, you've already made the choice.
Much difficult to understand.
[–]Rirruto 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I don't know how trees or dresses work, but that is an unfertilized egg so it's essentially the same as a girls period. And that sperm has yet to fertilize an egg so it's essentially the same as a wet dream. Btw I'm totally prochoice but you're not helping our argument with this.
This image is a pretty bad logical fallacy. Just because eggs, dresses, and trees have that in common, it does not mean that humans also share that quality. I agree with the message, but the argument is horrible.
[–]cavortingwebeasties 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
This is so overposted in general, and out of context here that I clicked on it expecting some clever atheist tweak that both fixes it and makes it funny. Son, I am nope.
it's likely that any egg you have ever eaten was never fertilized -its a blank- so no need to feel bad.
as far as the issue, i think the first question is: is the unborn a human being? if it's not, then you're free to kill it for whatever reason. what if it is a human being? there are good reasons that might justify killing another human being, but women don't typically kill the unborn for those kinds of reasons.
[–]zgrocks9 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Obviously that's not a person. It hasn't joined to make a whole new unique set of DNA. Duh!! Silly atheist!
[–]blomez 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
One of these things is not like the others.
[–]Mittenschop 0 points1 point2 points 7 months ago
Because you've never had a silkworm in your mouth?
[–]Retractable 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Apparently this is a difficult concept since you can't appreciate how nuanced the issue is
[–]trustbuffalo 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0kJHQpvgB8
[–]tankvc 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
repost
[–]MiseryMouse 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
People eat fertilized duck eggs all the time, why aren't people protesting that?
PETA?
[–]AlwaysTurning 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I am pro-choice but let me ask you a few questions.
Would you eat a fertilized egg? Would digging up seeds hurt the environment? Does this dress make me look fat?
yes (bird egg), not in any substantial way, it's not the dress. jk ;p
[–]nthcxd 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Am I leaping too far to link this to saying "future crime is a criminally dangerously slippery slope"?
[–]mybrainisfullof 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
...and dresses, chickens, and trees don't have legal rights. This is an oversimplification and a shameless karma whoring attempt.
[–]werdnAndrew 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
The egg is unfertilized and can't turn into a chicken anyway, the acorn is, I think, asexually reproduced and thus lacks the "potential" that pro-lifers revere, as it also lacks the variation. Silk requires active making to become a dress, whereas a zygote needs only a host. Three false equivalents, one post. I'm pro-choice, but this is embarrassing.
[–]Pers_respon 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
The chicken egg hasn't been fertilized yet. The acorn left alone will sprout into a tree under the right circumstances A silk worm is obviously not a dress (terrible comparison) A fertilized egg, left alone under the right circumstances will become a person.
These comparisons aren't really that accurate to the message OP is trying to convey
It may not be a dress, but Lady Gaga would still wear it.
[–]jacobtaylor1987 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
The egg is a bad example. Because an chicken egg is unfertilised.
[–]BlindThievery 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
It was the perfect starting point.
The original idea was that it should be thought-provoking... 290 posts later, we have a full blown discussion, I'd say it was a success.
Also, I laughed a little. Amazing how every other post on Reddit is a cat/video game/joke, and we get one technicality and everyone becomes a philosopher/expert/etc. I don't really know why I'm posting this since it'll disappear amongst the 100 other replies, but, fuck it. My two cents...
[–]LonelyWizzard 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
This is not an original post.
[–]The_Wumbologist 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I completely agree with the message of this pic, BUT... the silk won't turn into a dress on it's own, so it's probably not a great example.
Though, now that I think about it, that egg probably doesn't stand much of a chance either.
[–]Aynil 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I think you didn't ger it by the way
all it takes is a username and password
create account
is it really that easy? only one way to find out...
already have an account and just want to login?
login
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