I made something for you, r/atheism. Something I've thought about for a while.

kbb5508 · 9 months

It's not that Satan is more powerful than God, God's just a dick.

Accipiter1138 · 9 months

And this is what retconning does to storylines.

sailorh · 9 months

Neither of said spirits are real, but I'd much rather have a beer with Good Old Satan.

cbear3000 · 9 months

One opinion could be that Satan has an easier job than God. It is easier to get people to do what the hell they want, than it is to get people to follow rules for perhaps the benefit of one or more people.

MayorEmanuel · 9 months

Satan hardly even exists in the Old Testament, to my knowlage only sporting in the Book of Job and can only function within G-d's will. Christians made him into the ruler of the underworld, I would go so far as to argue that having two opposing deities is not really monotheistic.

dustinechos · 9 months

Thankfully, the whole thing is moot here since neither God nor Satan are real.

xiipaoc · 9 months

By the way, please don't quote Genesis here -- no character called Satan was involved; it was a snake. It's only the New Testament that interprets that snake as Satan, because it would fit their narrative.

Neurogasm · 9 months

This should be on a blog that nobody reads.

Miss_Bee · 9 months

My mom said that God can actually save you and destroy all of hell, but he's sending you there because he loves you. Also, that you choose to go there, whether you believe or not.

hollowmen · 9 months

I don't know if Satan would be more powerful than God. I think it's just a commentary on how much easier it is to corrupt and destroy something than it is to create.

makesgreatsandwiches · 9 months

It's not that your logic is wrong, it's just you didn't educate yourself enough on the topic first.

Christians don't believe Satan is more powerful than God. "Original sin" didn't even originate from Satan. Original sin was God's punishment to Adam and Eve for disobeying Him in Eden. Simply put, original sin is a disconnect from God. The "original" or "first" sin against God from man. Adam and Eve were no longer in God's grace, and God punished them further by saying all of their descendants would automatically be born into this state too. Jesus died to erase this punishment so we could be baptized into God's family and "wash away" Adam and Eve's wrongdoing that has been passed down to us.

...so original sin really has nothing to do with Satan at all.

YakMan2 · 9 months

To play devil's advocate, or god's advocate as it were, when you are an infinite being a thousand years is the same as a blink of the eye.

Can't defend the specifics of the plan though. That is just old school animal/human sacrifice bullshit.

jedifrog · 9 months

Christians also believe in talking snakes and men living in the sky.

i_am_still_alive · 9 months

Or, Satan's existence and actions are an unpleasant but necessary result of God's desire that his creations have free will. Sort of like how we keep alcohol legal, even though some people use it to become dysfunctional wrecks. (This would be the conventional Christian view, as I understand it.)

Colawaii · 9 months

All hail Satan my dark lord and master.

deadmyth · 9 months

thank satan you didn't use a legion of fonts to make this graphic.

Revelatus · 9 months

Yet both of them are infinitely less powerful than a piece of dust, which actually exists.

aceintx · 9 months

this was funny, believe what you will. that is my motto

dlg1058 · 9 months

I'm always amazed by how I think I've read everything there is in the whole r/atheism debate canon and yet there are always new perspectives to show me how silly the whole thing really is. Kudos :)

9 months

[deleted]

ZeMagnumForce · 9 months

Can I ask what fonts you used? I really like the choices here!

Sarutahiko · 9 months

One could argue that it's not that he's more powerful, it's just that it's easier to break something than make it.

For instance, you could spend a year building the coolest playing card house ever made and all it takes is a flick of a finger to destroy it.

When Yahweh gave humans free will he made his creation fragile for the sake of their benefit and Satan took advantage of that.

taskrokone · 9 months

upvote for awesomely designed graphic illustration of bullshit

360walkaway · 9 months

So Satan is like Luke and Bo Duke, and God is Boss Hogg?

Reference for those who don't know who I'm talking about.

sploogeannomatron · 9 months

If God did know and still does know all that would and ever will happen, then this whole thing is just one big game.

rottenseed · 9 months

Pretend that heaven and hell did exist, ran by the entities god and satan respectively. Why would the place that that guy ran be better than the place that this guy ran?

CaptainMorgen · 9 months

Maybe human beings are just dumb.

Kralizec555 · 9 months

Haha I want to show this graphic off to people who proselytize door to door.

Bananavice · 9 months

I don't think Christians would have a problem with Satan being more intelligent than God. Intelligence is not something that is highly valued in most religions, and is often looked down upon because it makes you question things. The snake (Satan?) is sly and clever and tricks people. While good traits for a christian are kindness and loyalty.

SA0S1N · 9 months

GOD = SATAN NOT REAL

kILLahILL · 9 months

nice design

lackofprogress · 9 months

Yeah, its that lucky fraction part that caused me to loose my religion as a child. When I was old enough to realize how utterly ridiculous it was that God only chooses to save the people who have heard of him I had had it. When I asked members of the church and my pastor they all said that's what evangelism is for. Now according to the 2nd book of Acts god granted his message to representatives from ALL peoples and cultures who just happened to be present when Peter is giving witness to them. That means god put the responsibility of saving all of humanities souls on a single group of people who happened to be in Jerusalem. Really?

[deleted] · 9 months

"Simple conversation"?

liapocalypse · 9 months

What about the idea that God created Satan as a tempter? Satan is on God's side, then, and God is both kind of a dick and smart and powerful.

jgoosdh · 9 months

hmm... I think its interesting that most of the opinions of the God presented in the bible here tend to the "he's an asshole" end of the spectrum. This seems to be without fail based on an underlying assumption that if such a God exists, then his number one priority should be care of humanity.

Funny that this isn't what the bible espouses. If you hypothetically accept the premise of a creator God (which you must do in order to call him an arse), then why assume the guy who created everything in the universe has human comfort as his top priority?

EnthusedCarrot · 9 months

First thing I need to say is this: I am not defending christians. Think of this as a lesson to learn how the more educated theologians would argue in response to this.

Using text in the Bible to generalize how all christian's belief systems work isn't always enough. This only works for people that believe scripture is the direct word of God. Many other moderate views use other reasons to explain the word of scripture. Also, could you be more specific with your fourth source?

Sarah415 · 9 months

I'd say a rebuttal point you're likely to get on this is that humans can only enter heaven by attaining a state of purity as laid out in the bible, therefore it's humans who are at fault for not living as god wants them to, not gods fault that people don't believe and follow. It's a pretty meagre response, especially considering many Christians see desires they think are evil as temptations of the devil (meaning he still has more power), but people will grasp at anything to keep their convictions valid. Nobody wants to have their world turned upside down, particularly if they think the other side of the world is evil. :)

harrypl0tter · 9 months

pfft....I took care of satan at hogwarts

--shaun-- · 9 months

I like the concept, but the reason that Satan is more 'successful' than God is that it is easier to be bad than good. Satan is an embodiment of temptation and destructive desire which is easier to give in to than it is to strive for more constructive ideals.

Satan is selling a far more desirable product. God never had a chance.

bigkuhr · 9 months

No, way.. can't you see through it all? It's a big conspiracy, yo! Like.. Check this out.. okay.. like.. what if.. god and Satan worked together to keep all the douche bags out. Like, it says in the bible, those two were fuckin close. Like, best bro's and shit. Then, all of the sudden Satan becomes this dick of an angel and changes the game.. naw man.. I'm thinkin those two kept throwin some bomb ass parties and were tired of every asshole on the golden block comin in and crashin their shit. So they came up with this story and made their bro-pad exclusive.

Chances · 9 months

I could see someone trying to explain this to someone, and it going okay

[deleted] · 9 months

This is the way my jehovas witness broke it down to me. God is letting the devil rule over the world. Iits up to us to find the way and show others the way. When armageddon is over the dead will rise and there will be a sort of heaven on earth for a thousand years. During this time the devil will be locked up. After that the devil will be cast into a river of fire ( not literally i think ) along with all the non believers. Then its all heaven from there on after.

SherImOnlyIrish · 9 months

"You see religion has actually convinced people... there is an invisible man, living in the sky!"

MikeDSNY · 9 months

But there is no god or satan, so I don't even know what you're talking about! :)

[deleted] · 9 months

Please don't use wikipedia as a source.

Feel free to use what wikipedia uses as a source as a source, though.

FuriousJ · 9 months

The more I think about it, the more I think that the "Lucky Fraction" is THE integral part of religion. It's not enough to know that you're going to heaven, you need to know that everyone else is going to hell. You need to know that you are special and different then everyone else, that you know whats up, and everyone else is grossly misguided. Everyone wants to believe that, it's just religious people actually do.

last1here · 9 months

I'm an atheist. That means I don't believe in an afterlife. That means no God and no Satan.

Chilapox · 9 months

it's not that God's weak, he just chooses to be losing because it's a part of his master plan or some shit. y'all are just too heathen to understand duh.

[deleted] · 9 months

There is quite a few inaccurate things in this. number one, it never states that it took thousands of years to devise a plan. He has it all set up in the beginning. Satan is always here, he is the temptation, without satan, there would be absolutely no purpose in this life. That is the test we are in. But ya, you think you wikipedia resources are going to convince people who go to church for hours every week... your wrong.

rygrove · 9 months

You are a actually narrating a western, fundamentalist view of the fall and atonement, which is a relatively new understanding of the whole equation. If you study Eastern Christianity and even Western Christianity up until Aquinas and scholasticism in the twelfth century you do not have this ultra clear (and fundamentally inaccurate) picture of sin and atonement that spells everything out. The disconnect comes in the pursuit. You are arguing against God with the mindset that everything is supposed to make logical sense, when Christians (prior to Aquinas) were well aware of the fact that most of scripture contradicts our human understanding of logic, that's the point. Scripture (Israel->Christ) is not concerned with history as an end, or absolute, in the same way we are (hell, modern history was born after the formation of the canon!), it is concerned with history only as a means for theological reflection. This all comes to mean that when you take a random verse out of the Bible and throw it into a narrative for the sake of building a historical account, which is what you have done, it completely disregards the verses purpose and the authors' intent (both original and redacted).

I only mean to articulate another side.

[deleted] · 9 months

if your gonna pick on someone, at least get the story right. Jesus=god as man, they aren't separate beings.

other than that, not bad.

Zombie_Death_Vortex · 9 months

The usual cop out I hear for stuff like this is that god works in mysterious ways. I sure do hate that argument.

bruiserman · 9 months

If it comes down to a final battle , Satan will definitely have the numbers on his side. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

larynx1982 · 9 months

why satan is more powerful than god.

Why imaginary character 1 is more powerful than imaginary character 2.

FTFY

But nice infographic nevertheless.

oboedude · 9 months

It's easy to twist words when you use only bits and pieces scattered throughout the bible...

Caligineus · 9 months

Eloquently done, really appreciate the design and subtlety. You make interesting, concise points - this is the kind of content r/atheism needs more of.

[deleted] · 9 months

But wait, God intentionally handicapped himself by allowing man free will.

Since the whole situation presented in Christianity revolves around diametric choice between good and evil, how a decision between two holistically "unequal" options pose any difficulty?

Quick round of devil's advocate; let's say the devil doesn't exist. Or he does, but everyone thinks he's lame. Would anyone really need to struggle to decide be a good person? If God was proved to be greater than Satan - either by some definitive affirmation of the indisputable goodness of mankind or direct proof of God and Satan's existence - only a babbling fool would challenge the will of so powerful a being.

So God might not be dicking us around by allowing evil to seem just as appealing as good; he could just be a scientist trying not to bias his results.

armedburrito · 9 months

Logic'd.

Raptor-Llama · 9 months

lucky fraction

What on Earth does luck have anything to do with it?

ElGuano · 9 months

Dear God: Go back in time, and tell yourself not to put the tree of knowledge in the garden of eden. Problem solved. Why is this so hard for you?

ReverseLabotomy · 9 months

Satan != snake

TheyCallMeNaterTater · 9 months

Dammit, this is why they think we worship Satan. To any Christian, /atheism troll reading this, we do not worship Satan, or any deity. That is all.

Monkeybirds · 9 months

Whenever i think I'm right i put myself into the other sides shoes and try to disprove myself. The intelligent christian defense to this is that God is more powerful because he is everywhere and everything, even the "devil". He is not an old man sitting on a cloud he is a being that views time and space as we view a single particle and knows dimensions far beyond what we can comprehend. The whole thing is designed to be a test to see, with a choice between good and evil, how "free will" will react. I could go on but I'm sure you get my point. I respectfully say that your chart is not going to win anybody over to your side. It is about as futile to your cause as handing a bible to you would be for theirs. And the central part in an atheists beliefs should be to eliminate futile actions. Your argument needs to be refined. I personally believe that there's too much space for error to rule out any possible idea on why and who we are. But i can also say that there's a chance that there's not enough time and resources left to figure out who is right. But hey, what the fuck do i know, I'm only a janitor.

denisbider · 9 months

A belief in literal hell seems to be a fundamentalist Christian thing more so than something shared by all Christians. The educated Christians I knew in Europe didn't seem to believe in hell literally, but took it more so as a metaphor. They recognized the absurdity of Biblical claims, so they interpreted them as something more sensible. Example:

There isn't an actual devil, it's a metaphor for the evil parts of yourself.
There isn't an actual hell, it's a mental state you end up in if you give in to evil.
God wants you to stay away from evil, and come to "him". But free will is such an important principle that he can't force you to not end up in a bad mental state. You have to make your own decision.

Such Christians take everything as a metaphor. That makes it harder to debate religion with them, because what they believe is so entirely fluid and adaptable. But as far as it works, it's actually a good thing; when they encounter evidence, they're often willing to adapt their faith instead of denying the evidence.

Unfortunately, it still tends to not go as far as tolerating homosexual marriage. :-/ In this case, they tend to be ignorant of the evidence.

jtbeith · 9 months

upvote for an original point made.

foolery · 9 months

You can't just lead in with "Obviously, God does not exist" when trying to free a religious person. Pointing out logical inconsistencies in what they believe needs to be done because otherwise, they do not see them.

They're not stupid, but if you get jerked into the circular logic of Christianity, someone is going to have to jerk you out of it.

This particular argument would plant the seed of doubt in the mind of a person that believes in God out of fear of God's power, the same way that the Good Guy Lucifer posts work well to raise doubts about fear of the Devil's malice. The important thing here is doubt. If they can doubt anything, they can doubt everything--a strategy that takes a page out of Lucifer's playbook, actually.

wroth · 9 months

I can imagine the christian response to this being something along the lines of "It's easier to destroy a work of art than it is to create one".

kjmsb2 · 9 months

To be fair, though, the bible doesn't say that Satan was in the garden. According to the bible it was just a random talking snake that happened by.

roshi94 · 9 months

I swear in genesis is just says serpent, not devil.

honeybunny123 · 9 months

Although this made me laugh my ass off, I can see now why Christian Redditors (and other Christians for that matter) think we worship the devil..... Oh well, I'm laughing!

insanityarise · 9 months

I've actually just read the beginning of genesis 3 as the pic sparked my interest, it's pretty odd.

So, god made the snake, snake is craft why? Because it's a snake, of course. So snakey says “You will not certainly die, for God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” I don't know about you, but I would have agreed after getting snakey to eat some to check and make sure it didn't die, but when that didn't happen, I too would have eaten the fruit, sounds delicious.

Then God acts like a bit of a dick, tells adam he has to do some fucking work for a change and then makes eve basically adams slave and gives her the pain of childbirth.

The main thing I dont get is gods next move; he banishes them but before kicking them out, he gives them clothes made of skin?! WTF! IT MAKES NO SENSE!

Also, this: "After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life."

Why the fuck put "the tree of life" there in the first place if you can see to the end of time, god would have known this would happen, surely. Why a flaming sword? First physical weapon ever, made by God.

I know the bible as we see it today is a mashup of different stories from 3 different gods, translated a bunch of times and then heavily edited, but this narrative hardly makes any sense, also this "God" character seems like a bit of an idiot to me.

TheChosenOne013 · 9 months

Here is my take on it, and keep in mind that I am NOT religious, just looking at all sides.

I think God wants people to get into heaven, but you must prove yourself first. If you want to get into top level management you can't quit school after eighth grade and start applying. You need to prove you deserve it by going to high school and college. Thusly proving you deserve it.

Just my opinion :)

EDIT: not sure what the down votes are for. It's a reasonable argument and opinion. You guys call yourselves logical and rational, as am I. Instead of down voting because I am looking at all opinions, try a counter argument.

EDIT2: still down votes. This is the primary problem I have with this subreddit. Nearly everyone laughs and jests that Christians are close minded, yet when someone points out other sides, and I am not even saying that I believe these sides, but merely pointing them out, they immediately get mocked and downvoted, making them just as close minded as the ones they make fun of! Intelligent conversation people.

robocord · 9 months

Satan doesn't exist. God doesn't exist. Posts like this serve only to piss off the fundies, all the while reaffirming to them how right they are and how evil atheists are. Shouldn't the goal be to help them understand logic, rather than just to annoy them?

MisterMet · 9 months

It is not original sin that sends people to hell, it is their own decision to turn away from God.

JordanLadd · 9 months

Satan will be judged and banished into the lake of fire forever by God after the 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth. Therefore God is more powerful than Satan.

God is the master engineer of the entire universe from star systems to subatomic particles. Therefore God is more intelligent than Satan.

rocketsack · 9 months

While entertaining, your little piece of art here is missing the mark in its interpretation.

According to Christian theology, the only reason that anything happens is because God, in one way or another, wills it. Through free will human beings are allowed to be weak and fall to temptation, such as the snake in the garden. While God may not want that for his creation, he allows it to happen, and only those that are capable of abiding by his rules are allowed into heaven.

What you did there was like calling the winner of a fixed fight the better boxer.

-Disclaimer: I am agnostic, don't even start.

0masterdebater0 · 9 months

[deleted]

Carg72 · 9 months

To make up for his lack of power, God goes ahead and becomes responsible for killing about 10 million more people in his own holy book than the supposedly evil guy.

Trashcanman33 · 9 months

Most Christians do not believe that if you are not a follower of Christ you go to hell, quote the Bible all you want the fact is most Christians do not Believe most of the Bible to be 100% factual. Most believe if you live a Christ like life, being good to you neighbor and are a good person you will go to heaven. Seen so many post like this lately that assume that the minority of Christian beliefs somehow makes the majority believers as well.

rjshatz · 9 months

I think it's hard to say "this is what Christians believe!" because modern day interpretations are so convoluted that most of the time that generalization just isn't true anymore. You can't tell anyone what they believe.

Lyri · 9 months

Classic misinformation here folks.

Wattss · 9 months

"There's a bit more to it than that" doesn't quite get the point across. LOL

ilovemagicmush · 9 months

This is neat, because it's true. I am a former atheist. This went from making absolutely no sense, garbage bullshit, to "oh, I get it now. LoL".

I'll try to rephrase it for those willing listen:

Original sin = As humans, we were born into this crazy society, wars, fighting, etc. You didn't have a choice. You didn't choose to be born into your body, nor your mind, nor your thoughts. It happened by itself. We were born into hell. Why don't people stop fighting and start loving each other, helping each other? Why? It's because of this original sin. Our parents raised us, society raised us, and we are slaves to them. We act upon knowledge we've learned from them and taken for granted to be true. If we've learned "we need to kill xxx!" then that's our original sin, because it was engrained into us. Then we pass it on to our children, continuing the cycle of hell. That's how your parents sins affect you. Spreading Christianity in such a way, forcing it onto people who don't understand, is a sin as well. I'm fairly sure Jesus would not approve.

"GOD desires all men to be saved." He wants us to wake up from this hell which we are creating. He wants us to love everything and everyone. To those who don't want to wake up, you are creating your own hell. I was creating my own hell too when I was an atheist. Hell isn't literally a burning lavapit of torture. It has to do with a state of consciousness. The belief that you are separate from the universe (ie, I feel like I'm driving my body. I believe I exist somewhere behind my eyes. That my consciousness is inside this physical body. I feel like more of a visitor of the earth.) is an indication that you are in hell. It's an illusion. It's a dream. You're cultivating a dream world. God wants you to wake up.

Ramennov · 9 months

Reminded me of this video.

dsauce · 9 months

Idiot, at the very worst they believe humans are aligning more with a lack of God.

[deleted] · 9 months

wtf? you used wikipedia as a resource??

[deleted] · 9 months

I do not believe in christianity, but this seems like a metaphor for how man's selfish and evil nature is less prominent than his good nature.

jonpotz · 9 months

Jose, is that you?

Skittls · 9 months

Do you know nothing about how anything works? If you want people to take you seriously, you can't use Wikipedia as a source. Shame on you.

Paxalot · 9 months

There are many flaws with your argument.

1) Satan was not the snake

2) God threw the first couple out of the garden because he was afraid they would become immortal as well.

3) God created evil, pain and suffering to keep man in his place, not because they did anything wrong.

4) Later God reconsidered (I know, I know, strange for an all-knowing God) and decided mankind might get back in heaven but only if they gave up their free will and became mindless, worshipping machines. There is no free will in heaven. God tried that once and created Hell.

5) It was all God's plan and his many changes of mind, jealousy, murderous orders and raping of virgins were God just being boss.

6) Satan works for God.

microvirus6 · 9 months

This is not even logical in the simplest of ways. It seems like a parody of itself.

hbdom · 9 months

This ridiculous circular logic.

xbioxjim · 9 months

ok i get that you guys are atheist but do you really have to relentlessly bash Christians for having faith i have nothing against you but it's just cold hearted anger so will someone please explain to me why you do it whats the point? also just wanted to point out that if this sounded like an attack on you it is not just want to understand. thank you

nymeriastark · 9 months

so you don't believe in the fictional character of God, yet you believe in the fictional character of Satan?

sleepyfan · 9 months

If you acknowledge the existence of God and Satan you are not an atheist. If you think Satan if more powerful than God you are not an atheist. I'm not sure what you are. Its one thing to say you don't believe in any god and say you believe in science, but to say Satan is more powerful than God, i really cannot understand this.

idiot-detector · 9 months

Scumbag Atheists. Believe in the Devil but not God.

svlad · 9 months

This is stupid. Satan, as modern day Christians think of him, is not even in the bible. What modern Christians think of as Satan is actually an amalgamation of several different characters from Christian religious writings.

So, to even bother quoting those sections of the Bible is retarded.

I am an atheist and believe Christianity is as idiotic as other religions, but come on. This "info"graphic is just fucking retarded.

cephalopod11 · 9 months

I'm sorry, but I just got totally swamped by the crazy changing fonts and colors. Great message, though, and very evocative!

ASlyGuy · 9 months

Scumbag God

God makes Adam & Eve dumb as shit. Satan tricks them. God gets pissed at Adam & Eve.

comprehension · 9 months

From a christian standpoint (not that I am), the serpent isn't necessarily Satan.

historically the serpent potentially came from another creation myth from another older religion. In which the serpent was a positive creative force. Via argument, the serpent was generated as a negative force in the old testament as part of the creation myth, in order to help convert those of the other faith. This was to show the people that they had been lead astray by the serpent.

As for why "we" go to hell, I believe the situation is much more complicated than brought up here. It's true that sin is the dividing factor, and that without original sin we supposedly wouldn't continue to sin therefore no one would have gone to hell. But it's almost like God doesn't want to be in contact with a sinner's soul after it departs, and that separation from the holy body is "hell" (I mention it this way since hell is not really mentioned in old testament, it is almost purely a christian developed idea.)

The reason I brought up the division, is that I feel that it's important to note that if the serpent isn't satan, then it wasn't satan's actions that doom men to hell. It was man's action in it'self, through the free will that was brought about by the twisting of a snake's lies. The "morning star" seems to a latter identity that continues to turn the spirits of man against God.

Supposedly, again the information regarding Satan himself is pretty limited in the bible. Most of what you hear taught in church is extruded from other sources and their own leadership.

DamnSpamFilter · 9 months

You shouldn't believe either exist. So whether one is 'stronger' than the other is irrelevant.

awe300 · 9 months

Satan does also not exist

GreyFoxSolid · 9 months

Listen, I do find this thought provoking, but I have to point a few things out

While much of Christianity has become distorted and nonsensical in the modern day, as agnostics/atheists, we must concede a few things. First, Christianity has been around for a very long time. And during this long period of time, there have been many theist philosophers and scholars who have thought long and hard about all of this.

The general conclusion in the field of smart, questioning Christians seems to be that the devil and God are working together. God wants us to think our own ways out of eternal damnation. Ways that prove that we are good people that are deserving of a place in heaven.

Now, I am not religious, and I will say that the majority of the people who are religious that I know probably haven't thought this far into it, mainly because most of them are not willing to entertain thoughts questioning of their faith. But there have been many who have thought about it long and hard in their religious days, including myself. Thousands of years of time tends to be enough to clear up such fallacies. Not to say that every aspect of religion has been logically cleared, I'm just sayin'.

BlindThievery · 9 months

If they were real, it makes more sense to follow the devil. Think about this:

You have God and Jesus on one side and the devil on the other.

Reverse the word/name God...dog (like a hot dog), Reverse Jesus...susej (sounds like sausage),

now reverse devil...lived.

So, would you rather follow processed meats or a guy who lived?

-explained to me by my ent friend.

qua_omsa_lajeeone · 5 months

Here is the theological answer, not that any of you care:

Article 1. Whether the devil is directly the cause of man's sinning?

Objection 1. It would seem that the devil is directly the cause of man's sinning. For sin consists directly in an act of the appetite. Now Augustine says (De Trin. iv, 12) that "the devil inspires his friends with evil desires"; and Bede, commenting on Acts 5:3, says that the devil "draws the mind to evil desires"; and Isidore says (De Summo Bono ii, 41; iii, 5) that the devil "fills men's hearts with secret lusts." Therefore the devil is directly the cause of sin.

Objection 2. Further, Jerome says (Contra Jovin. ii, 2) that "as God is the perfecter of good, so is the devil the perfecter of evil." But God is directly the cause of our good. Therefore the devil is directly the cause of our sins.

Objection 3. Further, the Philosopher says in a chapter of the Eudemein Ethics (vii, 18): "There must needs be some extrinsic principle of human counsel." Now human counsel is not only about good things but also about evil things. Therefore, as God moves man to take good counsel, and so is the cause of good, so the devil moves him to take evil counsel, and consequently is directly the cause of sin.

On the contrary, Augustine proves (De Lib. Arb. i, 11) that "nothing else than his own will makes man's mind the slave of his desire." Now man does not become a slave to his desires, except through sin. Therefore the cause of sin cannot be the devil, but man's own will alone.

I answer that, Sin is an action: so that a thing can be directly the cause of sin, in the same way as anyone is directly the cause of an action; and this can only happen by moving that action's proper principle to act. Now the proper principle of a sinful action is the will, since every sin is voluntary. Consequently nothing can be directly the cause of sin, except that which can move the will to act.

Now the will, as stated above (9, A3,4,6), can be moved by two things: first by its object, inasmuch as the apprehended appetible is said to move the appetite: secondly by that agent which moves the will inwardly to will, and this is no other than the will itself, or God, as was shown above (9, A3,4,6). Now God cannot be the cause of sin, as stated above (Question 79, Article 1). Therefore it follows that in this respect, a man's will alone is directly the cause of his sin.

As regards the object, a thing may be understood as moving the will in three ways. First, the object itself which is proposed to the will: thus we say that food arouses man's desire to eat. Secondly, he that proposes or offers this object. Thirdly, he that persuades the will that the object proposed has an aspect of good, because he also, in a fashion, offers the will its proper object, which is a real or apparent good of reason. Accordingly, in the first way the sensible things, which approach from without, move a man's will to sin. In the second and third ways, either the devil or a man may incite to sin, either by offering an object of appetite to the senses, or by persuading the reason. But in none of these three ways can anything be the direct cause of sin, because the will is not, of necessity, moved by any object except the last end, as stated above (10, A1,2). Consequently neither the thing offered from without, nor he that proposes it, nor he that persuades, is the sufficient cause of sin. Therefore it follows that the devil is a cause of sin, neither directly nor sufficiently, but only by persuasion, or by proposing the object of appetite.

Reply to Objection 1. All these, and other like authorities, if we meet with them, are to be understood as denoting that the devil induces man to affection for a sin, either by suggesting to him, or by offering him objects of appetite.

Reply to Objection 2. This comparison is true in so far as the devil is somewhat the cause of our sins, even as God is in a certain way the cause of our good actions, but does not extend to the mode of causation: for God causes good things in us by moving the will inwardly, whereas the devil cannot move us in this way.

Reply to Objection 3. God is the universal principle of all inward movements of man; but that the human will be determined to an evil counsel, is directly due to the human will, and to the devil as persuading or offering the object of appetite.

Article 4. Whether all the sins of men are due to the devil's suggestion?

Objection 1. It would seem that all the sins of men are due to the devil's suggestion. For Dionysius says (Div. Nom. iv) that the "crowd of demons are the cause of all evils, both to themselves and to others."

Objection 2. Further, whoever sins mortally, becomes the slave of the devil, according to John 8:34: "Whosoever committeth sin is the slave [Douay: 'servant'] of sin." Now "by whom a man is overcome, of the same also he is the slave" (2 Peter 2:19). Therefore whoever commits a sin, has been overcome by the devil.

Objection 3. Further, Gregory says (Moral. iv, 10) the sin of the devil is irreparable, because he sinned at no other's suggestion. Therefore, if any men were to sin of their own free-will and without suggestion from any other, their sin would be irremediable: which is clearly false. Therefore all the sins of men are due to the devil's suggestion.

On the contrary, It is written (De Eccl. Dogm. lxxxii): "Not all our evil thoughts are incited by the devil; sometimes they are due to a movement of the free-will."

I answer that, the devil is the occasional and indirect cause of all our sins, in so far as he induced the first man to sin, by reason of whose sin human nature is so infected, that we are all prone to sin: even as the burning of wood might be imputed to the man who dried the wood so as to make it easily inflammable. He is not, however, the direct cause of all the sins of men, as though each were the result of his suggestion. Origen proves this (Peri Archon iii, 2) from the fact that even if the devil were no more, men would still have the desire for food, sexual pleasures and the like; which desire might be inordinate, unless it were subordinate to reason, a matter that is subject to the free-will.

Reply to Objection 1. The crowd of demons are the cause of all our evils, as regards their original cause, as stated.

Reply to Objection 2. A man becomes another's slave not only by being overcome by him, but also by subjecting himself to him spontaneously: it is thus that one who sins of his own accord, becomes the slave of the devil.

Reply to Objection 3. The devil's sin was irremediable, not only because he sinned without another's suggestion; but also because he was not already prone to sin, on account of any previous sin; which can be said of no sin of man.

the_enginerd · 5 months

Nowhere in your evidence does it speak of power or intelligence. I understand your desire to equate these things to human qualities but The logic here just isn't sound.


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