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[–]agentsoapbox 67 points68 points ago

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Atheist hate gay people too. Ayn Rand did anyway...

[–]puredemo 32 points33 points ago

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Yep. It's definitely not all theist hate. Sometimes just macho bs.

[–]Murrabbit 16 points17 points ago

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It's not all macho BS, Ayn Rand was a woman.

[–]puredemo 30 points31 points ago

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She was pretty macho though.

[–]gorigorigori 14 points15 points ago

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And pretty BS too..

[–]vapidly 18 points19 points ago

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She also wrote atlas shrugged. would almost rather read the bible than read that again.

[–]bdang94 1 point2 points ago

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I was under the impression that Ayn Rand thought homosexuality was disgusting but she still thought they should have their rights. It is a pretty interesting point of view to me.

[–]LiudvikasT 2 points3 points ago

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What's so interesting about it? Disgust is an emotion, and emotional response is a bad reason to take away peoples rights. I don't think much straight guys find gay sex in particularly beautiful, still many understand that gays deserve their rights to be protected.

[–]bdang94 0 points1 point ago

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It's interesting because many people use their emotional responses when it comes to gay rights. They decide that their disgust is enough to justify taking away the right of marriage from gays. It's not very often that I see someone who has strong emotions against something while still being well aware of the role emotions have on decision making and law.

[–]paper_zoe 0 points1 point ago

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I think Ayn Rand hated everyone though.

[–]agentsoapbox 0 points1 point ago

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Yea, she was kind of a bitch. Wasn't she?

[–]joke-away 163 points164 points ago

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This is a dubious statement. In the People's Republic of China, an atheist state, homosexuality was illegal and classified as hooliganism. If you wanted to advance your career you were expected to live up to what we would here call family values. It was also considered a mental illness by the Ministry of Health. Source: The International Encyclopedia of Sexuality

[–]legatlegionis 74 points75 points ago

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There's been accusations that homosexuals were executed in Cuba an atheist state too by Che Guevara. I bet you can find atheist homophobes, so I don't think this argument holds 100%

[–]joke-away 39 points40 points ago

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[–]the_sun_god 36 points37 points ago

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Some historians have suggested that Joseph Stalin's enactment of the anti-gay law was, like his prohibition on abortion, an attempt to increase the Russian birthrate and build a better relationship with the socially conservative Eastern Orthodox Church.

I think the "no homo = increased birthrate" line of thought is behind most of (if not all) the hate towards homosexuality in religion and in authoritarian regimes. More births equals more future soldiers/followers. And to force people into "not becoming homosexuals" they'd threaten people with an eternal torment (religion) or incarceration/execution (dictatorships) if they "chose" to be gay. Just a thought.

[–]pjgamer77 13 points14 points ago

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A part of that quote is also wrong. He never tried to build a better relationship with the Orthodox church, he sent them fleeing into basements. If you did not sign a paper denouncing God and accepting communism you would be killed (millions of clergy and their followers were killed). My grandma was baptized in a basement...when the secret church was found the priests were killed (My grandma's family didn't go that sunday) and the rest sent to work camps. (My grandma was baptized in 1928 and the church was found sometime in the mid 30's)

[–]the_sun_god 2 points3 points ago

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I know, I was only interested in the "increased birthrate" bit, but I didn't want to cut off the rest of the sentence.

[–]amanojaku 2 points3 points ago

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You get 7 upvotes. The incorrect post gets 33. And r/atheism still insists its based on rational argument and not emotion? Have an upvote.

[–]TarBarrel 3 points4 points ago

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Correction:

His hearsay gets 7 upvotes. The post reffering to "Some historians" but no actual source gets 33.

[–]joke-away 11 points12 points ago

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[–]GoatBased 4 points5 points ago

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Hahaha! According to that site being white is a factor in being homophobic? So did they just not list other races at all or is the author a complete idiot? I'm trying to keep a straight face while someone tells me that black people (African, African American, or Caribbean) are not overwhelmingly anti-gay and proud of it.

[–]keiyakins 2 points3 points ago

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Uh. Wouldn't increased birthrate just increase problems we're having though? We really need to sort some shit out before we can grow the population >_>

If anything, hets should be abused! :P

[–]heavenlytoaster 4 points5 points ago

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If your religious, more religious people isn't a problem. If your a dictatorship, more soldiers isn't a problem. Its only viewed as a problem from outside the group thats trying to grow.

[–]keiyakins 2 points3 points ago

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If you're trying to adiquitely shelter and feed everyone, it most certainly IS a problem, whether they're religious or not.

[–]heavenlytoaster 7 points8 points ago

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Nah, you just kill all the outsiders with your mass numbers, then the total is stable again.

[–]joke-away 0 points1 point ago

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And the biggest group comes out on top.

[–]the_sun_god 1 point2 points ago

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<sarcasm>It's not like the subjects I mentioned are renowned for thinking logically.</sarcasm>

Jokes aside, overpopulation is a modern problem. It's a result of increased food production and effective eradication/control of diseases, among other things. In the past, things like a flu epidemic, the black plague or a really harsh winter could wipe out a sizable portion of a nation's population, so it's no surprise that a government or religious body would encourage reproduction.

[–]keiyakins 1 point2 points ago

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Right. But increasing population is an invalid goal, so that can't be the current reason.

[–]the_sun_god 1 point2 points ago*

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It definitely isn't the current reason. The link joke-away shared mentions the current reasons for homophobia in religion, which are mainly based on tradition and scripture (fundamentalism, orthodoxy, and intrinsic orientation). Regarding homosexuality in non-theocratic authoritarian regimes, I don't know about North Korea, but I know that in China it was decriminalized, and in Cuba anyone can have a sex change surgery for free.

Edit: By the way, here's some insight on the "increasing population" subject, where a public figure (Manny Pacquiao) uses a verse from the bible to justify not passing a bill that would legislate universal access to birth control in the Phillipines. Sad stuff.

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/nation/05/17/11/miriam-clashes-pacquiaos-over-bible-verse

[–]AofANLA 0 points1 point ago

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Probably not in China. Seeing as they're trying to limit the number of children born.

[–]heyatheists -1 points0 points ago

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Well played sir

[–]CthulhusPetals 0 points1 point ago

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Mmmm... Hard labor.

[–]nowhereman1280 2 points3 points ago

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The argument doesn't hold at all if just one atheist is an anti-homosexual bigot. This post is just another example of the fact that atheists are just as logically retarded as fundamentalist theists.

You can't make a definitive statement when the odds are there is a signification portion of the population for which your statement is false.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]Clopper 1 point2 points ago

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your'e an idiot

[–]the_sun_god 1 point2 points ago

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The amount of negative karma, and a "pc > mac" comment on a thread about the death of Steve Jobs leads me to suspect he is a troll.

[–]Murrabbit 9 points10 points ago

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an atheist state

Where wild ancient superstition runs rampant and is encouraged by the totalitarian communist leadership.

To imply that the lack of formal belief in a God in China is anything like the more principled philosophical naturalism of most western Atheists is particularly deceptive, as it shares far more in common with an absolutist religious hierarchy with the party taking the role of an ideological ecclesiarchy than anything else.

[–]joke-away 2 points3 points ago

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Yes, atheism and rationality are not a packaged deal. Simply removing theism does not ensure that mistakes such as those pictured in the OP will not occur. The solution is education in rationality, not elimination of poor beliefs.

[–]Murrabbit 0 points1 point ago

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I believe one leads directly to the other, of course.

[–]joke-away -1 points0 points ago

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Yep.

[–]HobKing 15 points16 points ago

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Considering it's in English, the guy was probably American, so the statement is probably still true, no? Just putting that out there, not taking any sides.

[–]joke-away 0 points1 point ago

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It could definitely be possible that theists bear the sole responsibility for discrimination against homosexuals in the United States. If you consider the well-documented existence of such discrimination in other secular and atheist countries, however, it's a lot less probable.

[–]iMarmalade 2 points3 points ago

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I think given the political climate in the US it's much more probable.

[–]joke-away -2 points-1 points ago

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However insanely religion-dominated it may be, the political climate of the US allowed the military ban on homosexuals to be repealed after over 200 years of discrimination.

[–]iMarmalade 1 point2 points ago

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I'm not sure that actually proves your point. There has been a general re-secularization of the government since the cold-war ended.

[–]joke-away -1 points0 points ago

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I'm not familiar.

[–]TJFadness -1 points0 points ago

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I was going to say this exactly. I was also going to say:

There is a huge difference between a religion coming out against homosexuality and a group that happens to be not religious coming out against homosexuality. When Christians are anti-gay, they are citing Leviticus. Every Christian that follows the bible traditionally sees this verse, and will either choose to ignore it or follow it. Their religion is the direct reason that they dislike gays. When an atheist group comes fourth, it is not their atheism that is causing them to dislike gays, it is their twisted views outside of religion.

Then, in the United States, someone being discharged for being gay is almost certainly a direct cause of anti-gay Christians.

[–]joke-away 4 points5 points ago

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Every Christian that follows the bible traditionally sees this verse, and will either choose to ignore it or follow it.

I'm not so sure. The Catholic Church's reason for homosexuality's sinfulness is based on it being a sexual but not procreative act, not based on Leviticus. And as the article says, the sinfulness of homosexuality is very controversial within the church.

It has been argued that ignoring parts of the bible is as much a part of Christianity as the bible itself. That's what GodHatesShrimp was all about, after all, that homophobia has as much biblical support as, or less than, a prohibition that nobody pays any attention to. Biblical literacy is actually pretty poor in the United States. And the percentage of literalists is still very low.

So the question isn't really about what the Bible says, it's about what the institutions based on it say. I would agree that most institutions based on Christianity today encourage homophobia (with the notable exception of Unitarianism), and you might persuade me that Christianity lends itself easily to that, but the fact is that other institutions have existed that also encouraged homophobia. So I think the connection is weaker than you're suggesting.

And there mere fact that all homophobes in the United States are not Christians (direct sources in video description), casts doubt on the title of this submission, and on your assertion that "someone being discharged for being gay is almost certainly a direct cause of anti-gay Christians."

[–]Purple_Shade 5 points6 points ago

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This is probably the best dissent in this whole thread. Upvoted

[–]GoatBased 0 points1 point ago

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So you think that the people who select only parts of leviticus to follow are having their views shaped by religion? What about the parts they ignore? Their views aren't shaped by religion, their views are shaped by society and they use their religion to support their views.

[–]TJFadness 0 points1 point ago

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So you think that the people who select only parts of leviticus to follow are having their views shaped by religion? What about the parts they ignore?

Uh, what? Where did I say that?

Their views aren't shaped by religion, their views are shaped by society and they use their religion to support their views.

How many homophobic people do you know that aren't religious?

[–]GoatBased 0 points1 point ago

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You said people are citing leviticus when they are anti-gay. The same christians that cite leviticus' anti-gay messages also choose to ignore a dozen other messages in leviticus. They're picking and choosing which part of the scripture they want to follow. They're mapping a religion to their beliefs, not the other way around. Their views are shaped by culture, not religion.

I don't really know who in my life is religious (I don't think one of my friends has been to church in the past ten years), but a lot of people I interact with on a daily basis make inappropriate jokes at the expense of gay people or use the word "gay" inappropriately. Both are homophobic. Do you want me to get you their names or something?

[–]PerfectlyDarkTails 2 points3 points ago

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Nothing on Asexuality? I am disappoint.

[–]Purple_Shade 1 point2 points ago

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There is a difference between all homosexuals, of all of history, having died. And those in the american military who have been discharged (and/or died, without due respect)...

I don't know for sure what this post was trying to get at - if it's just a 'small' reference, to America, then perhaps the statement is true. If it is intended, as you are suggesting, to a larger point about theists being the ones who are opposed to homosexuality, then no.

[–]nurx 4 points5 points ago

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It is also really bad logic. You know I'm not accusing humans of anything BUT...

Not all humans are responsible for rape, but all people who are responsible for rape are humans...

[–]Purple_Shade 1 point2 points ago

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That's a poor comparison. "Humans" is a LOT broader a category than "Theists".

I get that you're being hyperbolic for effect, but it's just muddying your point.

[–]Ginnerben 0 points1 point ago

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That's either a tautology, or just wrong depending on how you define people. If you're using people as another word for human, then its a tautology. If you just mean that humans are the only animals that rape each other, then you're wrong. Violent/coercive sex ("non-consensual" is harder to define for animals) has been observed in plenty of species, from dolphins, to spiders, to various forms of birds. There are even reports of elephants raping and killing rhinoceroses.

[–]Xerxai -2 points-1 points ago

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You found counterexamples to a point he wasn't making. The only message the picture implied was that theists were responsible for the discharging of homosexuals from the United States military... which is more or less true.

[–]joke-away 4 points5 points ago

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which is more or less true.

If "all people responsible for this are theists" is less true then it is not true. That's how absolutes work.

[–]Xerxai -1 points0 points ago

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I used the expression more or less because I do not have the sources to back-up my claim. However I am confident that I am correct in saying that those who made the law banning homosexuals from the military did so for religious reasons. If you want to refute that, go ahead.

[–]Shampyon 2 points3 points ago

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I can't refute that without going through the records of all the people responsible for such edicts to discover their religious status, but I do think that once such a prohibition has become a norm in society (regardless of it's origins) it doesn't need religious views to support it.

Once something's considered abnormal to a society, the "ick" factor alone can continue the prohibition without any religious support. It takes actively challenging those views to change people's minds once a cultural standard has been established.

This is why we in the West have social taboos against eating certain animals such as dogs, cats and insects.

[–]Xerxai -1 points0 points ago

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So you are saying that during the time of this veteran's discharging (is that the correct word?), people were against homosexuality because of a societal norm - and not at all due to religion?

[–]Shampyon 1 point2 points ago

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Nope. Just saying that it was probably both. Religious justification may have been a large, probably dominant factor, but I'm not sure it's fair to say "all people responsible for this are theists".

[–]Xerxai 0 points1 point ago

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you are correct.

[–]nowhereman1280 1 point2 points ago

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No, you are wrong. This is how logic works. If you make a definitive statement and it is false in just one instance, then your statement completely false. Period. Full Stop. End of Debate. No ifs. ands, or buts.

[–]joke-away -1 points0 points ago

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I don't really know enough to refute it. I don't know enough to support it either. A cursory review of the history on wikipedia indicates that it was at first a carryover from state sodomy laws (the origin of which is probably with the Puritans, supporting your assertion), and from the 40s on was based on bad psychology. A 1966 revision [PDF] of the 1949 military ban hints at this by saying:

Homosexuality is a manifestation of a severe personality defect which appreciably limits the ability of such individuals to function effectively in a military environment. Members who engage in homosexual acts, even though they are not homosexuals within the meaning of this regulation, are considered to be unfit for military service because their presence impairs the morale and discipline of the Army.

[–]Xerxai 1 point2 points ago

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I'm impressed by your research, and I have to admit that the origins of this law likely came from pseudoscientific reasons, rather than religious ones. However I will stand by the argument that religion, through its teachings, did nothing but perpetuate this societal norm.

[–]joke-away 1 point2 points ago

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I'm impressed by the fact that you are able to change your mind. I admit that I am now more convinced that homophobia in the United States is due to religion, though I still don't think that the connection is strong enough to justify the absolute statement in the title of this submission.

[–]Xerxai 0 points1 point ago

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Well summed up, thanks. And I found that article interesting, but very poorly written. It took reading it 3 times to understand what the author's was saying. Maybe it's just late.

[–]jjsullivan5196 -4 points-3 points ago

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an atheist state

More like what seemed to be an atheist state.

Any government that forms on a non-democracy is a theocratic state in some shape or form. The dogma it forms on is that of static governing rule, to the contrary of a democratic state which is founded on a dynamic governing rule. It still contains only the beliefs and truths of only one or a few.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points ago

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Atheism doesn't mean "someone who doesn't follow dogma," it means "someone who doesn't believe in god." Atheism doesn't mean whatever you want it to mean, it is a word with a definition.

If "without dogma" is the criteria for atheism, there are no atheists.

[–]joke-away 1 point2 points ago

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How is that not a No True Scotsman?

[–]jjsullivan5196 1 point2 points ago

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There is a distinction, in this example the People's Republic of China hides behind atheism to cover up their true intentions, which are that of a personal agenda or belief. It's a false attribution, since you can't really describe them as atheists, they still hold a dogma.

[–]joke-away 2 points3 points ago

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Atheism is the lack of belief in a god, not the lack of a dogma. That's kind of my point.

[–]jjsullivan5196 1 point2 points ago

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I guess that's all relative on your personal definition then, or more so the one you currently have in your mind in context.

I get it now, still it doesn't seem all that dubious really.

[–]vegidio -1 points0 points ago

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You are pathetic. Atheist don't support Atheist States, we support Secular States. Huge different. Do your homework.

[–]joke-away 0 points1 point ago

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You're pathetic. In this case, Chinese atheists quite clearly supported an atheist state. Stop making faulty generalizations.

[–]selfabortion 26 points27 points ago

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There's a "discharge" joke there somewhere, but I'll be damned if I'll be the one to make it.

[–]iMarmalade 3 points4 points ago

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Haha... yeah, I was going to make one, but I couldn't think of a clever way of doing it.

[–]Phallic 4 points5 points ago

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He could've treated the discharge with antibiotics, if only he'd known.

[–]ahora 35 points36 points ago

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Well, this is false. Many atheist countries based on comunism persecuted homosexual people.

[–]BetYouCanNotTellMe 2 points3 points ago

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How many of those countries control US Military policy?

[–]iMarmalade 22 points23 points ago*

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I can't speak for "atheist countries", but seeing as this is a tomb-stone for an American soldier, it would be fair that the statement in the title is accurate in that context.

[–]ladyyybird 4 points5 points ago

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tomb?

[–]iMarmalade 1 point2 points ago

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Oops, Fixed.

[–]ladyyybird 0 points1 point ago

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:)

[–]JackTalk -1 points0 points ago

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A lot of the arguments in America against gay soldiers in the army are not theist based. Although the underlying prejudice may be.

[–]iMarmalade 6 points7 points ago

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We are very good at creating justifications for our biases.

[–]Jamotron 22 points23 points ago

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Bullshit, people have always been afraid of what's different, without religion telling them so.

[–]puredemo 2 points3 points ago

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Religions just a good excuse..

[–]jvi 10 points11 points ago

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Then religion isn't the problem, people not being able to accept what's different is the problem. Don't persecute theism just because /some/ people use it as an excuse.

[–]Purple_Shade 1 point2 points ago

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There is no THE problem.

Just because there are other problems, does not prove that religion is not A problem.

Not "theism" mind you, RELIGION. Doctrines, dogmas, and people holding really tightly to beliefs because they are attached to a beloved ideology, or go well with their religiously influenced meme-plex. Just holding a theistic belief isn't an issue, though the things that go along with it could be.

[–]ivosaurus 0 points1 point ago

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Religion gives them the 'solid' reasoning upon which to condemn homosexuality. Without it, there's hardly any real justification to give.

Essentially, it's a great enabler and manifester of hatred.

[–]jvi 0 points1 point ago

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I'm not religious, but I'm pretty sure one of the main mantras of western religions is to never hate and be forgiving. People who abuse it as a reason are more likely extremists or people who don't give a crap about religion anyway and just want to hate what they think is different.

Like I've just tried to explain: if not for religion, they would find another reason to justify their actions. Your statement that religion is an enabler of hatred is very prejudiced. People who want to hate will find a reason to one way or the other.

It's like saying atheism is a great enabler of assholery because a few more close-minded atheists just like being condescending assholes to others and use atheism as an excuse.

[–]ivosaurus 0 points1 point ago

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but I'm pretty sure one of the main mantras of western religions is to never hate and be forgiving.

Exactly the same way that if you do one little wrong thing, commit a sin, make the wrong 'lifestyle' choice, and don't repent, THEN GOD'S GONNA SEND YOU TO FUCKING HELL TO BURN AND SUFFER FOR ALL ETERNITY;

...but he loves you!

[–]jvi 1 point2 points ago

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Not in general. Maybe in some few religions, but afaik for Christianity all they need to do is believe in God. There isn't really other strict rules and your lifestyle choice doesn't matter.

I think people see crazy people like Westboro Baptist whatever and assume all religions are like that which leads to "essential [religion] is a great enabler and manifester of hatred", which imo is grossly wrong.

[–]ivosaurus 0 points1 point ago

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Pretty sure believing Jesus is the son of god is extremely important to being a christian. It's what differentiates you from being a muslim or jew. In order to be a good christian, you should try to emulate the way Jesus supposedly lived his life.

[–]jvi 0 points1 point ago

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You don't have to and you won't be persecuted if you don't follow everything perfectly. You just have to try to be a good person, no specific restrictions. Stephen Colbert is christian and he swears on TV and makes fun of various political groups from each side and many "non-christian" things, but it's fine he just believes in God. He teaches Sunday school too.

[–]ivosaurus 0 points1 point ago

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No Jesus, No Christian. Notice how his last name is incorporated into the name of the religion.

[–]ivosaurus -1 points0 points ago

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Your statement that religion is an enabler of hatred is very prejudiced.

It can't be prejudiced if it's true, mate. You agreed to it in your previous statement - that it lets "People [who] abuse it as a reason". There are great swaths of those kind of people.

[–]jvi 1 point2 points ago

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I disagree that there are a lot of people abusing it, but I'll agree that the people who abuse it are certainly more vocal and loud about it.

I mean for anything that is good or bad, there will be people who abuse it and make the general population look bad.

[–]Purple_Shade -1 points0 points ago

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I'm sure that some atheists probably do use that as an excuse to be ass-holes. Quite frankly I don't think that statement proves your intended point.

The thing is would these religious extremists be able to so freely be accepted by their communities, and continue to spread ideas of bigotry and shame to younger generations, if not for a supposed common trait? (that is, their religious beliefs) would this still happen? Perhaps, and then again, maybe not, there would probably have to be some other shared belief. How many other beliefs do people hold so dear, and take such personal advice for?

I don't know about you, but I not heard of many people who take advice from people on how to raise their children, just because they share the same taste in sports team. And I've not heard of many people taking advice on how to live their own life, and which people to exclude, just because they have the same taste in music. (maybe that would happen in high-schools - as I presume something that flippant might be "serious" there)

But if this person is their religion, well, then they might just look into what they have to say.

My point is, the issue is very close to the human heart, in a way that most topics are not, and therefore it is more capable of becoming a vehicle for troubles. -Does that mean it IS trouble? No. But it does mean it might be an easier justification for even high stakes emotional choices to be pushed on people (not getting an abortion). I think so, yes.

Do you see?

[–]jvi 1 point2 points ago

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You're making so many assumptions that aren't true. Religious extremists are NOT accepted by their communities. Many Christians want nothing to do with people like the Westboro Baptist Church people.

Do people suddenly become morons because they're religious? People take advice from friends, not just anyone that share the same religion as them. You're trying to paint religious people into abnormal people, but they are just normal people and the same applies to them in terms of influence whether they're religious or not.

Of course people take advice from others if they are friends or share same tastes. Friends talk to each other about each others children. Influence has no more to do with religion than friendship.

[–]Purple_Shade 0 points1 point ago*

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You were originally opposing the point that "religion is an enabler" - I restated it, however, your post does not address that point.

Shakes head "Extremists" is a relative term. I consider it extreme to not believe in evolution. - People who are creationists are mocked relentlessly by atheists, but by their own communities? Much less than they should be; proofed by the fact that there ARE mega churches. That is a community unto itself. And I was not just thinking of 'Statsians'; I was thinking of Islamic communities where they dislike the idea of accepting secular governing. - The idea that one Should Want to be governed by religious doctrines, is in my opinion, extreme.

In answer to your sardonic question, I don't think so, no. But in future, I ask that you please refrain from putting words in my mouth, it's rude.

I think you may have missed the point. Is there another example of something so amorphous, that people also consider integral to their lives? I don't know of one, please tell me if you can think of something. (I say that in all seriousness)

People will take advice from pastors they've just met. Religious "leaders" are authority figures in peoples lives, yet they may be perfect strangers. They may go to seminars on spirituality, and decide to totally change the way they live their lives. Shakes head people don't just accept advice on how they live their lives, from friends. Not secular people either, humans in general will accept advice from perceived authority figures; but with religious people the possible (but not definite) danger, is if that this advice might be based on outdated information, or statements that are not necessarily rooted in reality. I'm sorry, but most religions do come with baggage. Even if their belief systems, in modernized countries, usually don't include the ridiculous aspects, they still have the easy potential for backwards habits and anti-intellectual flavour. Cult-bait, as it were.

[–]jvi 0 points1 point ago

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There's something really really weird about the way you write. It's incredibly hard to read and also wrong in many places. You're missing words ("But in future") and a lot of your sentences are missing constructs (subjects).

OK, anyway. Once again, you're just reasoning about the extremists. There's always edge cases for any belief system. I'm talking about the majority. Do you think that if a priest said that you should shoot your neighbors that everyone would do it? No, they won't. Religion is about being a good person and having faith, nothing more.

I am not religious, but I refuse to judge and stereotype others based on their faith. I don't believe in God, but I greatly respect people who do. It's pointless to argue about the extremists.

You don't need to be sorry. Your arguments are poorly formed and don't make much sense.

I think it's extreme to not allow others to believe what they want. Religion is not an enabler. People like you just want to blame this on something you disagree with, so you blame it on religion.

[–]Purple_Shade 0 points1 point ago

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I write as though I am speaking. Have you quite seriously, never encountered informal writing styles? (You write in essay format in your e-mails? O.o) Though perhaps, the issue is more that you're just not interested in conversing.

Who are you speaking to? I brought up extremists, so what I was speaking about, is actually relevant; it gives you context for my statements in a discussion, when you decide you disregard clarification of intended meaning, you are dooming discussions.

"Religion is about being a good person and having faith, nothing more." I doubt that even you believe that statement. 'Nothing more', is an impossible absolute, it's a claim to knowledge you can't possibly have, you are speaking for all religions, and all religious peoples.

That's a deflection and a straw-man all in one sentence; congratulations, you seem to like to stereotype in other areas of life instead. For the record, discussing possibilities without asserting absolutes, and talking to people who have dissenting opinions, about those possibilities, is pretty much as far from stereotyping as you can get. It's open discussion. Are you opposed to discussion about extremism?

I was sorry, because I presumed that you, as a possibly compassionate human being, might consider that statement and realize it's impact. The critical point of this second statement was? .... Oh yeah, an emotional jab. Even if don't make sense, there are politer ways to say it. All that respecting other people, a little compassion, for people who are trying to discuss things openly with you, and are willing to accept and even value your opinion, would go a long way.

What the hell? You're last paragraph starts off with, an implication to a belief I don't hold, and finished with a straw-man conclusion. Please, if you're going to refute someone, do so on things they actually say. It's more productive, and it doesn't leave all parties involved, with a sour taste in their mouth.

For the record, I don't believe in disallowing others to believe what they want; and never in my posts to you, have I even implied that. What I seek, in attempted discussions like this, is a common ground, on which to move forward, discussing ways to help people who are religious, prevent extremist view points from being harboured in their communities.

Denying that it's even possible ("Religion is not an enabler."), is unproductive, and as far as I can tell, it's also inaccurate.

[–]puredemo -1 points0 points ago

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I'M ON YOUR SIDE

[–]jvi 4 points5 points ago

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OH SHIT FRIENDLY FIRE IS ON, MY BAD BRO.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points ago

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This is Leonard Matlovich. you should all go check his Wikipedia page

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points ago

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NO NO NO NO NO. All Atheism is a rejection of deities. It does not mean anything other than that, stop trying to make it anything other than that.

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points ago

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Nope. Homosexuality was also illegal in Stalinist Russia and was punished with five years of hard labor. Discrimination against homosexuals has a lot more to do with patriarchal attitudes toward sex.

[–]Iamkitty 14 points15 points ago

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Oh, sorry. I missed the part that had anything to do with religion at all. Please, someone do explain this to me.

[–]s2011 5 points6 points ago

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All the problems of the world are caused by religion, atleast according to Redditors.

[–]ivosaurus 1 point2 points ago

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A more humanist army culture at the time might not have discharged him?

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points ago

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r/atheism has been in an upvote feeding frenzy when it comes to anti-theist submission titles. It is now attracting the karma whores, they can taste the blood in the water. Now that r/reddit.com is gone, r/atheism is the new idiot magnet of default subreddits.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points ago

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This group of men brought this woman before Jesus and told him that they were going to stone her because she was an adulteress, probably a whore. Jesus, who was teaching a class at the time, drew something in the dirt with a stick. The men asked Jesus again as they wanted his approval. Jesus looked at them and said, "he among you who has not sinned, let him cast the first stone." The men, ashamed, started leave from the oldest to the youngest, soon they were all gone. "What man condemns you, woman?" asked Jesus. "No man" replied the woman. "Nor will I condemn thee."

[–]Zero36 8 points9 points ago

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Not all germans were responsible for this, but all the people responsible for the holocaust were german...

Not all american's were responsible for this, but the death of the indians were caused by colonial americans

Not all Spaniard's were responsible for this, but the death of the whole culture of aztecs were caused by spaniards

yeah I can make retarted ass arguements too blame the ignorance, not the identity

[–]JackTalk 6 points7 points ago

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A lot of arguments that I've heard that are against gays in the military are not based on theism. Most of them involved gay people not being able to control themselves and that straight people would be uncomfortable. These arguments are obviously dumb but not based on theism.

[–]YOUR-UNCLE 1 point2 points ago

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Powerful words.

[–]Significarneant 1 point2 points ago

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all people responsible for this are theists

Nope. I've encountered non-religious homophobes.

[–]Annies-Boobs 5 points6 points ago

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Fuck off. So there are ZERO atheist in the military/congress?

Why is it believed that only religious people hate gays? I had a good friend that is an atheist. One day at a neighborhood BBQ I saw a circle of people and heard some people yelling. I pushed through to get a closer look. It was my friend going off on a young woman because she was a lesbian. This woman also happened to be my aunt who had just arrived for a month long visit.

I was honestly shocked. Never in a million years would I have thought that a close friend of mine would do something like that. I asked to stop, he didn't. So I beat the shit out of him in front of his family and the rest of the neighborhood. First time I had ever gotten in to a damned fight and it was with one of my best friends. Then there's the fact that my entire family is religious and they frankly don't give a fuck whether my aunt is gay or not. Same thing with my gay cousin on my dads side of the family. I was not happy about that.

Then there's the fact that I was NEVER pressured in to going to church. I went every weekend when I was little, but as soon as I was old enough to stay home alone, I did. I never liked it and my parent were fine with it. So long as I didn't burn the house down.

Religious people aren't the only ones intolerant of homosexuals and religious people also aren't the only racist people in the world.

There IS evil outside of religion and you are a fucking idiot if you think otherwise. You can't group all theists in to one big ball and say they are all evil hate mongers. If you do that you're no different that the people that think "all fags should burn".

Edit:Spelling

[–]wilywampa 4 points5 points ago

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You can criticize the post easily without resorting to ridiculous strawmen and ad hominem attacks.

So there are ZERO atheist in the military/congress?

Did OP say or imply that?

You can't group all theists in to one big ball and say they are all evil hate mongers.

The first clause of the title was, "Not all theists are responsible for this."

[–]FiestaDeLimon 3 points4 points ago

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Right. Because all homophobes are homophobes because of religion.....

No, people don't have to be religious to dislike and go out of their way to make it known how much they dislike it when people live and/or believe unlike themselves. cough cough elitist atheist assholes.

Pro-tip: I'm not a christfag so don't get the impression.

[–]heyatheists 2 points3 points ago

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Because all homophobes are homophobes because of religion.

Do you agree with this? Or

No, people don't have to be religious to dislike and go out of their way to make it known how much they like it when people live unlike they do. cough cough elitist atheist assholes.

Are you saying that you dont have to be religious to dislike someone? Obviously true. But. Do you think the dislike of homosexuality would have ever come up organically in society without religion. I could see it maybe happening with population shortages ect, but i just dont see the hate that homosexuals experience coming about without religion.

[–]FiestaDeLimon 5 points6 points ago

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No, I don't agree with the notion that all homophobes are homophobes because of religion. That is a moronic belief.

And yes, I'm saying religion is not needed to hate somebody. Religion or no religion, we will draw arbitrary lines in the sand to distinguish ourselves from "the other" whenever we get the chance. Whether it be people of another religion, nationality, sexual orientation, whatever, we are a malevolent enough species to hate somebody who is different than us with or without religious doctrine.

Basically, haters are going to hate with or without a Bible/Qu'ran/Torah/whatever telling them to hate.

[–]heyatheists -1 points0 points ago

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Okay cool, just curious. I would have to ask then, do you think that the level of hate (specifically w/homosexuality, but with any topic if you care to expound that far) would be as high without religion? Higher? Lower?

[–]aiiieeeee 0 points1 point ago

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yeah let me answer it for you - hate would be higher. why? because hate NEVER EXISTED BEFORE RELIGION. We all fucking held hands around a camp fire, singing dancing and fucking, until some moron had the brilliant idea of worshiping some god. And now gays have it tough as a result

[–]FiestaDeLimon -1 points0 points ago*

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I think religion is a vector for certain levels of intolerance because it exaggerates the aforementioned dividing line between certain classes of people, but I wouldn't say it intensifies it. In certain cases(religious extremism) it can "intensify" hate but there are plenty of people who hate people of different races/nationalities etc. without any religious "inspiration" so to say.

At the same time, I think religions are inherently flawed starting with their holy books. I can only speak for the Bible because it is the only one I have read, but religion should be a foundation on which we build character and become good human beings to each other regardless of other traits. It shouldn't teach us to resent sinners and heretics(i.e. pit us against each other), and I think the fire and brimstone and frankly extreme portions of the Bible, particularly the Old Testament lay down a groundwork that work against what religion should be, at least what I feel its purpose should be--to make good people with strong morals of justice, tolerance and equality.

[–]Shampyon 0 points1 point ago

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Do you think the dislike of homosexuality would have ever come up organically in society without religion.

Probably. Not in all cultures of course, as we've seen plenty of cultures with religious beliefs that had absolutely no problem with non-heterosexual orientations and practises. However, there are reasons prohibitions against homosexuality may arise without religious justification.

For example, a smaller ethno-cultural group may prohibit any non-reproductive sex acts in order to maximise their breeding potential to ensure their survival and/or dominance. Such a society may then justify their stance as being the will of their deity.

They may also place these prohibitions for purely cultural differentiation purposes, to solidify their internal social bonds through arbitrary rules of behaviour that contradict those of outsiders.

[–]paul11235 1 point2 points ago

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I'm pretty sure that there are some non-theists and (gasp) some atheists that also don't approve of homosexuality. Let alone in the military.

The handy Fallacy page at Wikipedia calls your argument a fallacy of accident, sweeping generalization, or destroying the exception. You fail.

[–]TigerTrap 1 point2 points ago

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I am as atheist as they come and support gay rights.

I have a friend who is also as atheist as they come. He is a tremendous homophobe.

What you're saying here isn't necessarily true.

[–]Ephasia 0 points1 point ago

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Most powerful photo of the day. Next to Gaddafi in a freezer, of course.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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I think he might be referring to this case specifically.

[–]Mayniak0 0 points1 point ago

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where is this? It seems familiar

[–]ForgettableUsername 0 points1 point ago

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I had no idea that the military frowned on monogamy.

[–]fuzzymechy 0 points1 point ago

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very true, except for that one guy who's just an asshole. We don't like him very much.

[–]turistainc 0 points1 point ago

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This should've been the link instead:

Crusades - Wikipedia.org

[–]Nurfy 0 points1 point ago

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Wrong, sorry.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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for fucks sake you stupid fucking people. we don't have to go by these dead peoples rules and labels. just do your thing and stay out of my way. sheet fare....

[–]temporary_acount 0 points1 point ago

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They gave you a discharge for giving him a discharge.

[–]nameredacted 0 points1 point ago

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All people who are responsible for this post happen to post their Facebook rebuttals as photo links as well.

[–]Prestian 0 points1 point ago

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In my country, Belgium, homophobia is bigger than theism.

[–]sauceskwatch 0 points1 point ago

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Nobody has picked up on the David Cross joke and the fucked up meta irony. That makes me feel clever. And sad.

[–]I_CATS 0 points1 point ago

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[–]wadleyst 0 points1 point ago

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Bullshit. Unless you are talking about the ritual of placing a pointless piece of stone to indicate a once live person in theory 'lives' here. Haha.

[–]notnerbmi 0 points1 point ago

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you know you guys could just separate the gay thing and the christian thing. They aren't really that related...

[–]foulpudding 0 points1 point ago

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Not all atheists are responsible for the persecution, murder and torture of the religious people in Soviet Russia brought about during the reign of Stalin... But all Stalinists were atheist.

[–]Dranzerk 0 points1 point ago

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So basically he made two wrong.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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I can't stand fags and i am an atheist! WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?

[–]greenw40 0 points1 point ago

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You really think that all policy setters in the US are theists? Doubt it. Most of them are probably just pandering to the idiotic theists just to get elected. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the leaders of our country aren't religious at all, they only worship power.

[–]Caine667 0 points1 point ago

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However poignant your statement is, I know for a fact that it isn't true.

[–]BigMacWelds 0 points1 point ago

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So he got a dishonorable "discharge" up his butt or in his mouth?? Cant determine which is right..

[–]throwaway3699 1 point2 points ago

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Don't worry, I downvote all atheist and theist content equally.

[–]homohominilupus 0 points1 point ago

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:(

[–]hundredpercentjuice 0 points1 point ago

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That clearly isn't true. Please let me know why you bothered making a post you know is false.

I keep getting drunk and seeing /atheism on the front page. I just don't know what the fuck you guys are doing, or why.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points ago

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I was gay once!

[–]petomane 8 points9 points ago

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I bet that was a pain in the ass.

[–]unidentifiability 2 points3 points ago

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I think he took it well.

[–]Shampyon 5 points6 points ago

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I've never been gay, but I've fucked a couple of blokes who were.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points ago

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Responsible for what?

[–]Snarfthedstroyer -1 points0 points ago

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BUT CHRISTIANITY IS THE CAUSE OF ALL THE THINGS I DON'T AGREE WITH!!!

r/atheism's burst onto the front page is really enlightening into how similar to Christians the internet atheists are.

edit:o /= i

[–]thesnakeinthegarden -1 points0 points ago

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Until you can name every person responsible and their history and affiliations, you should stay clear of absolutes. Absolutes are almost never accurate. Point made and all but it makes you sound lazy in your thinking.

[–]amanojaku -1 points0 points ago

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If by religion you mean homophobia, I agree. If by religion you mean religion, you are so fucking wrong it is not funny. Which came first, I wonder.

[–]rezaziel -1 points0 points ago

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Homophobia is not a religious thing.

These atheists posts are getting kind of ridiculous. I wouldn't want to see idiotic religious posts on the front page either.

[–]mmforeal -5 points-4 points ago

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Actually, I think he was discharged for giving discharges

[–]rockstang -2 points-1 points ago

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Fuck your athiest comment. This gravestone says more than you ever could.

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points ago

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gay!

[–]Spiro_Agnew -3 points-2 points ago

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I'm an atheist and I do not support gays in the military. I'm also against homosexual marriage.

[–]Zeebsz -4 points-3 points ago

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You should not be in love with a person you are fighting in a combat zone with. It is the same reason why women don't go into combat- People make irrational decisions when someone they love is involved, and you don't want people thinking irrationally in war.

[–]zsofika888 -5 points-4 points ago

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you can love a man. but why do you want him to stick his cock inside your anus? are you GAY or what??!

[–]puredemo 0 points1 point ago

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Feels good, man.

[–]badraccoon -2 points-1 points ago

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OP fails.