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What a cruel male dominated culture. (i.imgur.com)
submitted 9 months ago by antitheistsCOUK
[–]fobygrassman 92 points93 points94 points 9 months ago
Nope. Its about choice the one on the left is free to wear whatever she pleases the one on the right is forced to wear what shes wearing.
[–]imaginarygods 41 points42 points43 points 9 months ago
No, the one on the right can choose from various shades of black.
[–][deleted] 30 points31 points32 points 9 months ago
I've seen some wearing shades of blue, psh.... sluts.
[–]czechreck 24 points25 points26 points 9 months ago
Kinky. I once went to see a Muslim striptease show, everyone was yelling 'SHOW US YOUR FACE!!!'
[–]Neotyguy40 18 points19 points20 points 9 months ago
I'm more of an ankle person.
[–]tymmbee 22 points23 points24 points 9 months ago
Pervert.
[–]meatbongos -1 points0 points1 point 9 months ago
Upvotes for this whole thread haha
[–]JihadDerp 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago
Way to keep it going.
[–]sandybell751 -1 points0 points1 point 9 months ago
They do checkered red/white in Syria! THOSE HARLOTS!
Edit: They used to until the 90s ended.
[–]FriedMattato 11 points12 points13 points 9 months ago
Is it black? Or is it a slightly DARKER black?
I bought 10.
[–]zpxocivubyntmrlekwjq 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago
Everybody knows the only true black is the heart of a dragon.
[–]fallens -3 points-2 points-1 points 9 months ago
There's no such thing as a shade of black, just shades of gray.
[–]puffyjenkins 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I think you went a bit too literal for this comment thread.
[–]fallens 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Anti-joke chicken
[–]thenarwhalthatbacons 19 points20 points21 points 9 months ago
Some women do choose to wear a burka or similar dress, but there are many women who are forced to wear oppressive clothing and they don't get to have that choice.
[–]Le7 -7 points-6 points-5 points 9 months ago
Nobody chooses to wear the Burqa. Humanity chooses to adopt the clothing and style of whichever culture is morally superior - right now its western/'global' culture. People in Afghanistan are forced by a backwards culture to dress in a backwards manner. If their minds were free they'd choose to wear global clothing. To say they choose to wear it is like saying a 5 year old chooses to believe in god.
Look at Iran. The government tries to impose strict religious clothing, but the people have seen/experienced the global culture via the internet and as a result wear mandated religious clothing very liberally. During the protests women took their hijab off completely.
[–]SaintGenesius 12 points13 points14 points 9 months ago
Nobody chooses to wear the Burqa.
Aren't there a couple of women in france right now fighting for the right to wear a burqa, Niqab, or something? Assuming memory serves, there's even a single woman fighting for the right to wear it.
I'm not all about the burqa, personally I think it's a genuinely retarded idea. If however, they're wearing it on their own, I don't see a reason to say anything about it.
[–]Le7 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Well those women in france are trapped in a sub culture that tell them that if they don't fight for the right to abolish their rights theya re doomed to hell. Along with access to the global culture, one's family has to be neutral on the subject. Some of those women in France families would disown them if they went along with French culture.
[–]SaintGenesius 7 points8 points9 points 9 months ago
Really, you know them and their motivations? I'm not trying to start a flame-war here, but unless you've got some psychic ability or have met these folks (specifically in this case the ones from the article) you probably shouldn't be claiming to know what makes them tick.
By that logic no christian ever chooses to go to church, because the only reason they're going is a fear of hell and social shunning. No decent act of charity has ever been done by choice from any religious organization ever, because they only do it to avoid damnation. Obviously a choice was made by all 3 of these groups, and that choice should not be interfered with.
By all means try to educate them to make their beliefs obsolete ("them" being the religious in general in this case), but outright bans are a bad idea because it's one of those things that a reasonable person can disagree with. The moment you start making the retards seem reasonable, you start losing the fight.
[–]Le7 -1 points0 points1 point 9 months ago
Well to answer your second point about Christianity. Yes: that's exactly why they go to church and why many give to charity.
I used to know a muslim girl who was forced by her family to wear the hijab and she argued with people who asked her why she wore it. But when she was with me she came clean and explained that she really wanted to be like other girls and that the she knew the hijab was a symbol of female oppression. The global culture of North America, the far east, South America, Europe, and Australia was better in her eyes, but her family saw it as evil and she loved her family.
Sociology tells us that women tend to be less radical than men too which is another reason why women tend to just go with the flow and try to not cause conflict with those close to them. It has its advantages in many cases, but in this case its counter productive to human progress.
[–]SaintGenesius 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago*
So because christianity is actively holding back progress and being used to take basic freedoms from a segment of the population, and because the rhetoric used for these things comes actively from the pulpit, should we outlaw church attendance? It's essentially the same thing, just (slightly) less visible.
edit* Oh and the original point that I disputed was that they don't choose the burqa. You and I may find their reasoning appalling, but you've at least admitted that they make a choice.
I guess my point is that the choice they have to make isn't a fair one. Its like holding a gun to someone's head and telling them "call this person or i'll shoot you"
In a perfect world we could outlaw church attendance, but I have a feeling outlawing it would make christians who don't usually attend church start attending out of rebellion. That's just my view on it though. I don't think religious freedom is necessarily a good freedom to have. I'm a leninist in many regards.
[–]SaintGenesius 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
In a perfect world we could outlaw church attendance, but I have a feeling outlawing it would make christians who don't usually attend church start attending out of rebellion.
That was the point I was making with my prior post. By making this a fine-worthy offense I get the feeling that people will be more likely to embrace it than less. It's at best not going to be very effective, and at worst going to be counterproductive.
[–]themcp 6 points7 points8 points 9 months ago
One of my friends bought a burqa and walked around San Francisco in it for a few days to see what the experience was like. She said she quite liked it, actually, but disliked the hostility people expressed toward her, so she didn't wear it any more.
[–]nowxisxforever 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
I think that would be a good experience for a good amount of people... especially in the US, where a lot of folks are simply used to being the majority. Being the minority for a bit, and experiencing the negativity that comes with it, gives you a new perspective and helps you from contributing to the perpetuation of that kind of negative bullshit.
[–]themcp 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
The friend in question is a lesbian, so she does understand being a minority. She's just unbelievably brilliant and has time on her hands to try things like that. (She gets masters degrees because she's bored and feels like learning something new.) But yeah, you're right, most americans need to learn what it's like to not be a member of the majority all the time.
[–]cephalopod11 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Catholic nuns choose to cover their whole bodies except their faces (at least most do). Is this oppression as well?
Yes. Why wouldn't it be?
Same goes for orthodox jewish women (and men, but its hard to feel sorry for the men since they are leading the community and are the ones perpetuating it) and Buddhist nuns/monks (same thing goes for the monks as with the orthodox men though)
I think there's a difference, though, since there is definitely no rule that one has to become a priest/nun/monk in Catholicism, and that dress applies only to them. I wouldn't call it oppression at all, even if I don't agree with that religion's teachings as a whole. Oppression is a strong word with strong meanings, and is definitely something that the person being oppressed knows about.
[–]Phage0070 -1 points0 points1 point 9 months ago
Arguably, yes.
[–]anttirt 20 points21 points22 points 9 months ago
This should be a three-part comic.
In the second frame, both women don these clothes.
In the third frame, the western woman sits in a CEO's chair and the middle-eastern woman is buried up to her neck in a hole in the ground and is being stoned to death.
[–]Tastingo 6 points7 points8 points 9 months ago
woman sits in a CEO's chair
Then the CEO gets in and asks the woman to get out of his chair.
[–]OKImHere 16 points17 points18 points 9 months ago
How do you know the Muslim doesn't choose to wear that? Societal pressures don't just come from the men. They come from your mother, sisters, and aunts, too. When the whole society is telling you that this is proper and that isn't proper, it's no surprise that you'd start to think the same way.
US society teaches that a topless woman is not proper in pubilc. Does that mean that every woman with a shirt is being 'forced', as you put it, to wear what she's wearing?
I get the sense that you think that inside every burqa, there's an American dying to get out. It's simply not true.
[–]FuhQue 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Some may choose and all are required in some societies. For example, in Saudi Arabia, it is preferable to allow children to burn to death than let them out in public without proper clothes.
[–]Quazz -4 points-3 points-2 points 9 months ago
So you're saying that because they're brainwashed it's all ok?
At either rate, if both of them lost any clothing, only one of them would get stoned to death.
[–]OKImHere 7 points8 points9 points 9 months ago
They're brainwashed in the same way you're brainwashed into wearing pants.
[–]Quazz -2 points-1 points0 points 9 months ago
Yep, but you missed the point.
[–]JihadDerp -1 points0 points1 point 4 months ago
And who do you think the mother, sisters, and aunts get it from? How come no women wear that in freer countries?
[–]OKImHere 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago
They do wear it in 'freer' countries. Where did you get the idea that they don't?
Never seen one. And that metric is good enough for me lol
[–]CyraEm 6 points7 points8 points 9 months ago
It's not a real choice though. The virgin/whore dichotomy is alive and well. She can choose to cover up and be ignored, or to dress like that and have some semblance of leverage in social situations. Unfortunately the second option usually is partnered with a sense of contempt.
[–]PirateD00D 6 points7 points8 points 9 months ago
You're missing the point. The point is that male dominated culture has dictated what should be worn or not, not who has it worse than the other.
[–]SaintGenesius 5 points6 points7 points 9 months ago
Eh, social pressure being what they are blurs it (very) slightly, but you've definitely hit the issue squarely with that sentence.
[–]Smallpaul 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
The two women are on the same sidewalk. Therefore they are almost certainly in a country where they both have a legal right to wear the other person's clothing. They may prefer their own clothes for cultural reasons, or for comfort (emotional or physical). Or they may feel pressured into it.
[–]Tonkarz 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
In some of these cultures women aren't even allowed outside without a male relative.
[–]The419 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago
Assume much?
[–]johnbentley 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
the one on the left is free to wear whatever she please
The one on the left is not free to go nude in (most) public areas. The one on the left is not free to go topless in the same areas that men are, in (most) public areas.
The difference of the restriction (and punishment) is quantitative not qualitative. This is not to assert a moral equivalence.
Both women, though, are subject to an unjust restriction on what they can wear, and there is a sexist component in both cases.
[–]morris198 -2 points-1 points0 points 9 months ago
Good. Being exposed to this ridiculous comic once again, I was going to get really indignant over its whole multicultural, two-sides of the same coin, Western women are as shackled as women in societies governed by Islamic fundamentalists, bullshit message. But, your comment is in the top spot and, despite a few apologists and "multiculturalism is the answer" far-Leftists whining, I'm feeling a lot better about things.
[–]n3hemiah[] 39 points40 points41 points 9 months ago
So this is bullshit.
The cartoonist is implying an equivalence between Western and Islamic cultures. "See, we're all equal if we just account for our own biases! Westerners who criticize Islam are just close minded." It's an "enlightened" attempt at feeling superior to all sides.
Of course, the woman on the left won't be beaten with lengths of steel cable if she decides to wear a different outfit. The difference is so obvious it hurts.
Then you should realize that your problem is with steel cable beatings, not with the dress. If there were no beatings, would the burka be OK?
[–]Jepumy 5 points6 points7 points 9 months ago
Assuming there wasn't the huge peer pressure to wear it. Obviously there's some peer pressure with other clothes too, but I'm talking about huge peer pressure. :P
Of course wearing burqas causes vitamin D deficiency, so if they're properly educated they should hopefully choose not to.
[–]follier 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Having worked with conservative Muslim for some years, a few of whom wear a burka, I can tell you that they all did it out of choice, and expressed similar sentiments as the cartoon. One woman in particular, who's older sister chose not to wear a full cover (only hair) felt that it was the only self-respectful way to dress. If you asked her about social pressures, she would tell you that every single person she meets on a daily basis is pressuring her not to wear it.
They also had the same attitude with driving, which surprised me. They were appalled that in a supposedly enlightened nation such as the US, women were actually expected to drive themselves around. They considered this barbaric and insensitive.
I'm not saying there aren't Muslim women in bad (family) situations living in Western states. I'm just saying that it isn't the situation for most of them.
I have to go with being forbidden to drive because of your sex is much worse than being expected to drive yourself around from time to time.
[–]James-Cizuz 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Vitamin D deficiency is better then Vitamin Stone if you choose not to wear a burqa.
This is not peer pressure, this is "WHORE YOU WEAR IT OR YOU WILL BE STONED TO DEATH" and in a lot of countries is actual law.
[–]Jepumy 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
Did you even read the post above mine? It was a hypothetical about if that stuff didn't happen.
[–]n3hemiah[] 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Women can wear whatever they want, for all I care. The cartoonist is making a cultural statement, though, and it is absolutely incorrect.
[–]CalvinLawson 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Shit, a slave collar and ball gag are OK as long as it's consensual.
[–]heavenlytoaster 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
That or its a jab at some sort of feminism across culture sort of nonsense. But that's probably expecting too much.
[–]follier 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
[–]helgaofthenorth 17 points18 points19 points 9 months ago
Why are people getting downvoted for getting it? I thought the idea was that women are objectified in both cultures, but Western women are ogled while Islamic women are hoarded.
[–]robbie9000 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
Because if you don't submit to the prevailing anti-theist dogma of this subreddit you get downvoted.
If somebody posted to reddit, "Hey, gravity is all bullshit! All hail the lord and overseer, Kruckshnuffnuts! Therefore, women must wear sandpaper and gays are to be killed violently!" And I said, "Hey fucker, that makes no sense and you sound ridiculous!" Would you call me an anti-theist dogma lover, or pro-reason?
[–]eixan 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Yeah maybe. I'd recognize this as a possible big problem but its fantantisically equating social pressure from magazines and tv to being disowned by your family, beaten, and possibly killed in islamic countries.
[–]Pinworm45 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
But that's a fucking ridiculous point, because the difference is so fucking obvious.
[–]Quazz 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Heh, everyone gets objectified. Most of the time it's not even a bad thing in essence, everyone just seems to think so.
[–]Skibum04 -1 points0 points1 point 9 months ago
However the commic misses the point that there is a huge difference between the cultures and we are justified in saying one is in fact better than the other. This idea that both societies are equally wrong is ignorant.
[–]helgaofthenorth -1 points0 points1 point 9 months ago*
While I totally agree that it's not "equally wrong," the artist definitely has a point. I imagine women in both cultures have resigned themselves to their situation, and even enjoy it. I'm American, and I know women who take full advantage of being objectified.
edit: wasn't finished. stupid iPhone!
[–]a_bawdon 20 points21 points22 points 9 months ago
At least the one in the bikini won't face punishment for dressing differently.
[–]Skibum04 4 points5 points6 points 9 months ago
She also still probably has her clit.
Not an Islamic practice. Cultural in predominantly Muslim areas, but not Islamic. Get it right.
[–]Smallpaul 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago
[–]The_Young_Contrarian 6 points7 points8 points 9 months ago
What would happen if the one on the right wore that outfit and walked down the streets of New York? Now what would happen if the one on the left wore her outfit and walked down the streets of Mecca?
[–]Supora 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago
A woman showing some skin isn't evil. There is nothing wrong with the female body, even though people like to force women to cover theirs up. The fact that women have to cover their chests in the first place means that we live in a male dominated culture. Both women's bodies are controlled by men because they have to cover themselves up. Like they should be ashamed of their bodies.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
The fact that only one of these women can actually choose what to wear is just a minor detail.
Shut up you anti-theist. You're so closed-minded! Gosh!
[–]fuzzymechy 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
kind of a good point, but on the other hand, the woman int he bikini probably won't be beaten or stoned if she puts on more clothes.
[–][deleted] 9 months ago
[deleted]
[–]Anthet 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Nah but hit over the head (at least in Saudi arabia when I lived there). The motawas would beat women that showed hair with sticks, my mom got a feel for that once or twice when she mistakenly let some hair fall out.
[–]fuzzymechy 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
depends on where you are. some places you genuinely will, others not. I'm assuming that we're talking about the uber-patriarchal Islamic countries
[–]Smallpaul 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago
I think that there is more truth here than most acknowledge.
[–]kbox -1 points0 points1 point 9 months ago
There is no truth. The point has been made numerous times that one woman choses to wear what she is wearing and the other is forced. The comparison is so flawed that anyone who claims not to see it must be either retarded or a liar.
[–]James-Cizuz -4 points-3 points-2 points 9 months ago
Doesn't work that way jim. Tell that women to choose not to go home to her husband in the burqa. Oh wait who was found dead stoned to death by an upset community?
They are scared to death to go anywhere without it. In their home countries it's a death sentence, here they are scared from the family most times.
[–][deleted] 9 months ago*
[–]Anthet -1 points0 points1 point 9 months ago
Pretty much how brain washed housewives felt about the fight for womens suffrage back in the day. Just because you are brainwashed into thinking that you have to cover yourself up to be "pure" or have "dignity" doesnt make it so. Sometimes the oppressed (which women in these cultures obviously are) are so brainwashed they feel happy about it, or they are strong believers and need a way to justify their silly beliefs as something that is not evil.
[–]mathmexican4234 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Idiotic comic. I don't understand how bikinis have anything to do with being a male dominated culture. In societies that are the most equal and free with the most female leaders, women still choose to wear bikinis, but the amount who freely choose to wear burqas without being brainwashed into religion is precisely zero.
(I think it's poking fun at feminists who look at sexually liberated women and claim they're under control of "the patriarchy," because they have no fucking perspective about real freedom.)
[–]picimadar 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
This comic really pisses me off. One is 'male-dominated' by media, the other by religion. Two completely different and incomparable ideas.
Yeah except a bunch of journalists aren't going to come smash your head in with rocks because you didn't cover the appropriate amount of skin. Religious zealots? They have a history...
[–]Skibum04 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
So female muslims are to dumb to know what sunglasses are?
[–]wheatus -2 points-1 points0 points 9 months ago
But which one is closer to the truth?
[–]swordmaster006 -11 points-10 points-9 points 9 months ago
Both are equally true.
[–]ShunnedOne 12 points13 points14 points 9 months ago
Yeah, we also stone blondes that take off their sunglasses where I'm from.
[–]swordmaster006 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago
I mean that both are typically doing it to gain acceptance from a male-dominated culture that is imposing its values on them.
[–]anttirt 5 points6 points7 points 9 months ago
Uh no.
Just no.
You can not draw an equivalence between trying to gain acceptance and trying to not be fucking murdered.
[–]OKImHere 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Then your problem is with her being fucking murdered, not with how she dresses, right? That's a distinction worth noting.
[–]swordmaster006 -1 points0 points1 point 9 months ago
Considering the women are passing each other on the sidewalk, I would say this is not southern Afghanistan or something. The cartoon is probably about the burqa controversy in Europe and the UK.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing#Europe
In 2005 Der Spiegel reported: "In the past four months, six Muslim women living in Berlin have been killed by family members".
Fair enough, I just think you're getting way off-topic of the cartoon.
[–]Railboy 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
both are typically doing it to gain acceptance from a male-dominated culture
There's a big difference between doing something to please and doing something to avoid severe punishment. The only way the joke works is if you ignore this difference.
[–]a_bawdon 6 points7 points8 points 9 months ago
nope nope nope
[–]yaruki_zero 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago
Western society is worse to women than people usually want to admit, but the notion espoused by some conservative Arabs that in the West "you have to dress up your women like sluts and then your act surprised when they have sex with men you've never seen before" is a rather delusional one. There's truth in both statements, but I think a massive difference in scale between "be sexy or we'll ignore you" and "wear this or face physical violence."
[–]g_a_b_e_2_0_1_1 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago
Maybe so from a social perspective but not from a legal one.
[–]cdavie5 -2 points-1 points0 points 9 months ago*
I think this would be more powerful if it juxtaposed stonings with anti-abortion legislation.
Edit: Please tell me you've all seen the reverse burka.
[–]nicelander -2 points-1 points0 points 9 months ago
THis is the repost of all reposts. I wish I had 666 downvotes for this. And this comparison is fucking stupid too.
[–]DeeBoFour20 -3 points-2 points-1 points 9 months ago
You know I really don't understand why in any culture men don't want to see boobs...
all it takes is a username and password
create account
is it really that easy? only one way to find out...
already have an account and just want to login?
login
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