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top 200 commentsshow 500

[–]absurdlyobfuscated 93 points94 points ago

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Just a friendly FYI, this comic has been posted at least 5 times before:

source: karmadecay

[–]Kaiser_Winhelm 56 points57 points ago

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My first time seeing it, and I really like it. If something is being genuinely reposted to death, then the upvotes will stop coming. As it is, I think it's healthy to have the same relevant, smart thing posted every once in a while, to reach new people. Is a familiar link really that bad?

[–]absurdlyobfuscated 7 points8 points ago

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I agree, there are a lot of things worth reposting. Whenever it's an innocent "I've never seen this before" like this one, and not blatant karma whoring, I've got no problem. Links to the previous submissions' comments can usually add a lot to the new discussion - for example, LinuxFreeOrDie's comments on the oldest submission spawned a lot of interesting dialogue that I think is worth reading. Wasn't trying to sound like I was complaining :)

[–]future203 3 points4 points ago

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Reddit is so fickle! Maybe it really is all about timing.

[–]SgtBanana 10 points11 points ago

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Yep. It's not okay to repost anything, except for when it is okay. When is it okay? Never/always.

[–]horseyhorseyhorsey 8 points9 points ago

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maybe one day it will stick

[–]thepusherman 42 points43 points ago

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[–]bleyva 2 points3 points ago

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Thank you so much for this

[–]furless 315 points316 points ago

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The important thing that you overlook is that there are very large costs associated with reaching this golden nirvana you yearn for. These costs are not only in dollars and cents, but also include massive job dislocation and, in all likelihood, lives lost.

There is also the other side, which is, what if these anti-carbon measures are implemented and actually very effective but natural global cycles are heading us for another ice age?

Amid all the noise and posturing, one thing that is clear to me is that we know a lot less about global climate than we think we do. Wishing is not the same as understanding.

[–][deleted] 75 points76 points ago

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I am surprised to see a post like this upvoted here on reddit.

I believe the earth is indeed warming, and in all likelihood human activity is a contributing factor to this warming, but what I don't believe is that we absolutely must take drastic and costly measures immediately or else face impending, irreversible doom. That's where a lot of the political bullshit steps in. The rush to fix global warming coming from Democrats is a lot like the rush the Republicans had to go to war with Iraq. There is a ton of shady backroom shit going on in both cases, the immediate threat is false, and there are a lot of costs involved if taking things too hastily.

Think about the unintended consequences that might arise if Democrats had free reign to tackle global warming. Is extracting CO2 from the atmosphere and turning it into some kind of powdered solid (I don't remember the chemical composition off hand) and burying it in the ground a good idea, or could problems arise from that? Would shutting down all coal and oil power plants and replacing them with nuclear power have any unintended consequences? Would the cost of energy double? Triple? Who does that affect the most?

I could go on.

[–]elustran 12 points13 points ago

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The thing you need to consider is that any changes will take decades to fully effect and take decades after that to make a significant difference. It's all about putting ourselves on a track with a good percentage change per year in energy usage - if there isn't enough, then population growth and developing economies will eclipse any attempted change.

No, we're not going to end humanity, but if we cause too much disruption of water supplies and destroy too much agricultural land, it's going to be harder to maintain our current lifestyles. Rapidly changing weather patterns could cause expensive population shifts that would have otherwise happened more slowly. And, as always, if any resource is ever at a premium, we could see violent conflict over it.

Somewhere in there is a best-cost solution, that, you're right, is difficult to predict, but its pretty obvious that doing nothing isn't the correct choice.

[–]greyflcn 2 points3 points ago

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Is extracting CO2 from the atmosphere and turning it into some kind of powdered solid (I don't remember the chemical composition off hand) and burying it in the ground a good idea, or could problems arise from that?

And where's the energy to power that process going to come from?

[–]Tekmo 9 points10 points ago

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On the other side of the scale, you shouldn't wait for the polar ice caps to finish melting or ecosystems to be destroyed to take action.

I would defer to the scientific consensus on this one because they work their asses off to collect enormous amounts of data to support their conclusions, rather than basing my judgement on my anecdotal experiences that everything is fine because it's not yet a steady 105 degrees outside.

[–]CodeMagician 0 points1 point ago

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We didn't have polar icecaps 10-15 million years ago before North and South America joined. Life was thriving on Earth then.

[–]tau-lepton 6 points7 points ago*

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Not human life, and losing greenland and antarctic ice sheets would raise sea level by sixty meters, talk about dislocation.

Maps

http://www.nexialinstitute.com/global_flooding.htm

Edit, added maps link

[–]k-h 7 points8 points ago

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So let's see:

  1. The earth isn't warming.

  2. It might be warming but it isn't due to human activity.

  3. It might be warming and it might be because of us, but if we did anything about it, we might break it.

Aaah, the next anti-global warming argument!

[–]thegravytrain 1 point2 points ago

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but what I don't believe is that we absolutely must take drastic and costly measures immediately or else face impending, irreversible doom.

Let me tell you about the polar ice caps. If the earth continues to warm, they will shrink. When they shrink, the earth loses a white coating which helps to reflect light and heat away from the earth. This will ACCELERATE the rate of heating. It's called a positive feedback loop and is practically irreversible. Whether this happens or not I hope you appreciate that you are taking a deadly risk with the lives of billions who live in coastal areas at stake.

[–]treemeat 13 points14 points ago

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FEAR ALL THE THINGS

[–]Stevo_1066 20 points21 points ago

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Seriously? You're accusing him of risking the lives of billions of people? This is utterly ridiculous. ASSUMING the ice caps were to melt all away, we wouldn't have an influx of 2012 style Tsunamis wiping out cities. It's a gradual process, and the water line will gradually rise. I live on the coast. What will we do when water levels rise? Move.

Your logic on the positive feedback loop however is sound. Although I must beg to differ on the statement of its irreversibility. Like it has been said by ziggmuff, it is indeed a natural cycle. Whether you agree or disagree with the notion of man-made global warming, it is a FACT that the Earth goes through hot and cold cycles. Ice ages, and tropical states.

[–]madplayshd 7 points8 points ago

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Actually, the melting of the norht pole ice caps wont rise the sea levels. Because this ice is floating in the water and displacing as much water as they have saved. So if they melt it wont make any difference. The biggest reason for sea level rise is thermal expansion. However, the worst case scenario is about 2 m.

A bigger threat is that the melting of greenland glaciers could lower the densitiy of the water in the labrador sea, and by doing so, prevent the so called downwelling from happen, which could cause the gulf stream to stop.

[–]psyon 0 points1 point ago

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When the gulf stream stops, does't that cause heat to stop circulating, and the arctic areas will become colder again? I recall seeing a video about this cycle at one point. There used to be a huge inland sea in Northern Canada that was held back by large glaciers. When the world warmed, the glaciers receded and released the water. The water flowed out the St. Lawrence Sea Way area, and flushed into the ocean. The large influx of fresh water stopped the currents, which stopped heat distribution, which caused the temperatures to decrease in the north, and the glacers built back up, and the sea reformed. They cycle had happened multiple times I believe.

[–]voxoxo 12 points13 points ago*

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Also it's not as simple as "positive feedback loop omg we all die". There is a very particular geological circumstance right now, which is that one of the poles (south) is entirely covered by a land mass. That in itself is enough to guarantee that it will be covered in ice, there is simply not enough solar input for things to be otherwise. Additionally, the earth has been through much hotter and much colder cycles in the past, and has never reached a run-away situation. In fact, it's not known currently how these small scale changes (such as the current ice age cycles) or long scale changes (such as between eras) happen exactly.

Of course, it's true that there has been some kind of heating in the past decades, and it's probably because of us, and that's probably not a good thing, so we should aim to avoid it, but claiming that there is an accurate understanding of the long term effects and consequences is BS.

edit: I forgot to say: it's still possible that a significant part of ice at the south pole would melt, and that's of course not good, but it won't be most of it, and it also won't happen quickly.

[–]thepricklyplatypus 5 points6 points ago

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Actually, the polar ice caps will take quite a bit of heating before they start to melt. If anything, warming up to a certain point will cause them to grow. This is because most of the polar ice caps are significantly under the 32 degrees Fahrenheit (or 0 degrees Celsius), so a change of a couple degrees doesn't affect them. But a change in a couple degrees also means that a lot more water is evaporated, which means more of it falls as snow. Hence, polar ice cap growth.

[–]tau-lepton 0 points1 point ago

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At 6C warmer both Antarctic and Greenland ice is gone, just a matter of time.

[–]lains-experiment 9 points10 points ago

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"deadly risk with the lives of billions who live in coastal areas"

These are really slow moving people if over the next 50 years the sea rises and they can't MOVE TO HIGHER GROUND.

[–]visplaneoverflow 1 point2 points ago

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Let me tell you about people talking out of their asses on the internet; you are them.

You don't know for sure anything that you just said. You're acting incredibly dogmatic. The science is immature, we need more data.

[–]g-dragon 0 points1 point ago

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54 up and 54 down?

let me handle this....

[–]Sovereign19 1 point2 points ago

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I believe the earth is indeed warming

I don't understand this. It is either warming or it isn't. What does believing have to do with it?

[–]ThatsALogicalFallacy 4 points5 points ago

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Human beings don't have access to ground truth, and make decisions based on beliefs alone.

[–]dnew 1 point2 points ago

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It's either warming or it isn't, but it's not easy to measure a 1-degree change in a value that fluctuates wildly over years and centuries.

Similarly, it's either going to rain tomorrow or it isn't, but it's not easy to predict.

The believing comes from whether you believe the measurements taken indicate the results claimed.

[–]SteeleBawls 0 points1 point ago

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As a LEED AP, I can clearly say that the building standards that have been instituted for creating a "green building" are almost 100% bullshit. They give tax breaks to introduce little factors that will incur additional 200-300% product cost (sealants or materials) that will gain a total energy efficiency savings of only a fraction of the initial cost... its nice to THINK about, but until there is a way to create energy efficient (green) products or energy alternatives that dont cost an arm, leg, your firstborn, your left nut, and your soul... no contractor will implement them. Sorry, but I'm not gonna save the world if it's going to keep food from my plate.

[–]handburglar 0 points1 point ago

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That's the whole thing I am trying to say in my stance further up in this comment thread. I think people really believe that we have come up with some methods of construction, production, and food growing that can a. keep up with the growing world (at a level we expect) and b. not produce ANY excess carbon. To them there is just some evil skeptic (Republican) who just doesn't want to see it happen.

[–]jaxcs 0 points1 point ago

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When you hear plans about pushing carbon into the ocean, don't assume it's supported by Democrats. In many cases, they are supported by Republicans who point to these as reasons why climate change isn't that big a deal.

[–]haleym 6 points7 points ago

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Amid all the noise and posturing, one thing that is clear to me is that we know a lot less about global climate than we think we do. Wishing is not the same as understanding.

I'm not sure where you're getting that 'clarity'. The science is very, very clear on what's happening, and it ain't good. The only real 'noise and posturing' is coming from those who want to obscure the message. You're right, wishing (that things aren't that bad and we'll be fine if we do nothing) is not the same as understanding (that we're pretty fucked if we don't make some drastic changes).

[–]flfolks 12 points13 points ago

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Same arguments that have been spouted out for 30 years. Everything you said is going to happen eventually, it is a just a matter of doing it over time by choice or waiting until we are forced to.

Also the lost lives thing, really? Defending the pumping of toxic gases into the major population areas by saying lives will be lost? Classic.

[–]absurdlyobfuscated 25 points26 points ago

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And, IMHO, it's all well and good if people make whatever decisions and carry out whatever actions that contribute to any of those, so long as they don't come at a great cost to others. Once you start swinging the crude cudgel of government at the problem, you may find it doesn't strike the intricacies of the issue -- but does hit many other things in its way.

[–]dorbin2010 48 points49 points ago

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Forgive me for being a little rude on this one, but what in the hell? Fixing the environment requirement requires more than "swinging the governmental cudgel".

These top two comments are as cryptic as they are generalizing the issue (and yes, the comic is as well but that is beside the point). So you're attempting to argue that the cost of trying to stop man made climate change will not outweigh the forecasted problems mankind is going to experience in the next fifty years? What of the next fifty after that?

For a problem that's almost universally accepted by scientists, I feel like climate change is eternally damned to be debated by people poisoned by pseudo science and incorrect rhetoric.

[–]cjet79 9 points10 points ago

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We should listen to experts in their respective fields. I am willing to listen to climate scientists on the predictions of climate change, but you should listen to economists on the predicted economic effects of climate change. Economists are far from certain that the effects are negative much less catastrophic. David Friedman

[–]cryptorchidism 0 points1 point ago*

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Here's a fixed link. Well, the content is still wrong, but at least the link works.

Stripping out the fluff, we're left with:

Should we assume that Bangladesh will still be a poor country a century hence, or that it will by then have followed the path blazed by South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore and Hong Kong—and so be in a position to dike its coast, as Holland did several centuries ago, or move housing some miles further inland, at a cost that can be paid out of petty change?

He's assuming that the entire world will someday be industrialized to Western levels. Even at our present population, that would be the equivalent of keeping the wealth distribution the same, but increasing the population to 72 billion people.

Not gonna happen, Dave.

Over a century, most farmers will change the crop they find it most profitable to grow multiple times; if average temperatures are trending up, those changes will include a shift towards crops better suited to slightly warmer weather.

We're not talking about slightly warmer weather here. If we're serious about listening to climate scientists, then listen. It's not about a few degrees (warmer weather generally helps plants, after all). It's about changes in rainfall causing droughts and floods. Hard to simply "change crops" if all your soil has blown away.

Over a century, most houses will be torn down and replaced; if sea level is rising, houses currently built on low lying coastal ground will be rebuilt a little farther inland—not much farther if we are talking, as the IPCC estimates suggest we should be, about a rise of a foot or two.

That's not how people work, and you know it. We were warned about New Orleans literally years ahead of time. It would have cost a billion dollars, in the most prosperous nation on earth, to raise the levees. Pocket change compared to the damage.

Did we? Of course not. Why do we think Calcutta will be any different? They'll delay and delay until their houses are swept away by record-level storm surges.

It is true that our species evolved to survive under then existing climatic conditions but, over the period for which humans have existed, climate has varied by considerably more than the changes being predicted for global warming.

So we have reason to believe that humanity will not go extinct. How encouraging.

And, for the past many thousands of years, humans have lived and prospered over a range of climates much larger than the range that we expect the climate at any particular location to change by.

This is pretty meaningless, because over the past few thousands of years we haven't had 7-billion mouths to feed. Most places on Earth are habitable if your population density is low enough.

All-in-all, a bunch of hand-wavey, poorly thought out attempts to dismiss the damage of climate change and ecosystem disruption. Color me unimpressed with this "economist."

David Director Friedman (born February 12, 1945) is an American economist, author, and libertarian theorist.

Well that explains it. Libertarians' eyes tend to glaze over when the world gets subtle.

[–]cjet79 0 points1 point ago

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Your world population prediction is horrible. You are getting it from an opinion piece in the new york times. At least use the UN's numbers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population

Their highest estimate is 14 billion by 2100, and their lowest is 5.5 billion.

Friedman is far from the only one to assume that we will reach high levels of industrialization. Most of the predictions for our CO2 output in the future assume that Africa will be industrialized and pumping a lot more of it into the atmosphere. Everyone makes the prediction of a richer world, with a doubling in population at the most. Not some ridiculous factor of 10 increase.

We're not talking about slightly warmer weather here. If we're serious about listening to climate scientists, then listen. It's not about a few degrees (warmer weather generally helps plants, after all). It's about changes in rainfall causing droughts and floods. Hard to simply "change crops" if all your soil has blown away.

Yes we are, go look up the IPCC's climate reports. Their median prediction is about a 2 degrees Celsius increase.

That's not how people work, and you know it. We were warned about New Orleans literally years ahead of time. It would have cost a billion dollars, in the most prosperous nation on earth, to raise the levees. Pocket change compared to the damage.

So you want the same idiots in charge of raising a levee to deal with global warming?! Look, people in government face relatively similar incentives at different levels, why would you expect people to be behave differently if they face the same incentives? If you really don't want people building in areas that are in danger of flooding then get rid of federal flood insurance.

Did we? Of course not. Why do we think Calcutta will be any different? They'll delay and delay until their houses are swept away by record-level storm surges.

I don't know anything about Calcutta, I'm guessing they probably don't have an idiotic federal flood insurance program that allows people to get away with living in these dangerous areas.

So we have reason to believe that humanity will not go extinct. How encouraging.

No we have a reason to doubt that there is some kind of "perfect temperature" that we must remain at.

This is pretty meaningless, because over the past few thousands of years we haven't had 7-billion mouths to feed. Most places on Earth are habitable if your population density is low enough.

There has never been mass starvation in a democracy. Given the right incentives farmers can find a way to feed people. They have been doing it quite successfully for ten thousand years. We also have a relatively untapped research areas of genetic crop modification which could drastically increase our ability to feed people. It was a change in the stalks of rice plants that allowed us to avoid mass starvation in India and China during the 70's and 80's.

All-in-all, a bunch of hand-wavey, poorly thought out attempts to dismiss the damage of climate change and ecosystem disruption. Color me unimpressed with this "economist."

After your use of the idiotic 72 billion people prediction I'm not inclined to listen to any of your opinions.

Well that explains it. Libertarians' eyes tend to glaze over when the world gets subtle.

No, we just realize that the doom and gloom preachers have been around throughout human history, and they are generally as wrong now as they were when they predicted god's wrath.

[–]cryptorchidism 0 points1 point ago*

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Your world population prediction is horrible.

Actually, your reading comprehension just sucks. 72 billion isn't a population prediction. If you read the article (a courtesy I afforded you, might I add) you would realize what that number really meant. I won't waste my time explaining it again.

Yes we are, go look up the IPCC's climate reports. Their median prediction is about a 2 degrees Celsius increase.

Climate systems are non-linear blah blah blah. Why I am even arguing with someone so willfully ignorant as you?

Global warming doesn't predict uniform-temperature-rise-everywhere-with-no-side-effects. It predicts average global temperature rise, with some areas getting wetter, some dryer.

If you really don't want people building in areas that are in danger of flooding then get rid of federal flood insurance.

In Pakistan? Mumbai? Sri Lanka? I'm pretty sure those areas are not blighted by an overabundance of insurance.

I don't know anything about Calcutta, I'm guessing they probably don't have an idiotic federal flood insurance program that allows people to get away with living in these dangerous areas.

Your ignorance is painfully obvious. There's about 10 million people "getting away" with living in a flood plain, the Ganges Delta.

So much for the insurance theory.

No we have a reason to doubt that there is some kind of "perfect temperature" that we must remain at.

Who said anything about "perfect?" There's just a climate that we know can sustain 7 billion people, and a climate we're not so sure about.

Even this is boiling it down to a simple numerical argument, and ignoring the mass-migrations and political upheaval (read: war) necessary to move those 7-billion people to the "new optimum" locations.

There has never been mass starvation in a democracy.

You have causality backward. Democracy is unsustainable in the face of mass starvation.

All societies are three meals away from anarchy.

They have been doing it quite successfully for ten thousand years.

Again, this is meaningless. We've only had a billion+ people for 200 years, and our current food system is completely dependent on fossil inputs. Here's a good overview, if you have any doubts.

It was a change in the stalks of rice plants that allowed us to avoid mass starvation in India and China during the 70's and 80's.

Yep, and population has risen in response.

After your use of the idiotic 72 billion people prediction I'm not inclined to listen to any of your opinions.

Oh, the irony.

No, we just realize that the doom and gloom preachers have been around throughout human history, and they are generally as wrong now as they were when they predicted god's wrath.

Again, Hurricane Katrina comes to mind. Score one for the doomsayers.

But you're right. It's fortunate that the doom and gloom visits other nations, poor and far away. You know, the billion people who lack secure access to food and water, and the two billion births that will join their ranks by 2050. They'll be the ones drowning and starving and dying in wars and migrating, not us.

So go ahead, hold a wake for Malthus in your castle, securely surrounded by the largest military in the world. Those with objections aren't on the guest list.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points ago

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Mark my words, when we are done fighting wars over oil, we will be fighting wars over clean water and arable land. Said wars are already being fought economically by powers with money under the guise of stopping climate change. I can't think of a single thing the government has done in the name of CO2 reduction that doesn't harm the poor and put more money in the pockets of a select few rich.

[–]thegravytrain 12 points13 points ago

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Well we can spend $50 billion solving a problem, but if one measly dollar is incorrectly spent or leads to the loss of one life - then it was a disaster and humans should never attempt anything ever again. Forget for the moment that doing nothing will cost more money and lives.

It's the same retarded logic that leads us to spend trillions on the war on terror despite costing far less in terms of lives and money than say cancer, car crashes, etc.

[–]Game_Ender 0 points1 point ago

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In essence his is arguing for using the government very carefully to attempt to fix the problem. You could very easily have the government waste resources chasing the wrong "green energy" strategy. It could force the focus on technologies which don't help, or really need more R&D time before subsidized into the main stream.

To fix the problem the world needs a global tax on carbon based energy and transportation fuels. Just like the gas price increase in the US drove a huge drive from automakers to increase car efficiency, every company and person in the world would work very hard to reduce energy use. This is way more effective the government trying to pick a technology and force it upon everyone, or just mandating "less energy use".

[–]atm_snowball 0 points1 point ago

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You sound too serious all the time.

[–]tau-lepton 1 point2 points ago*

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Like reduction of SO2 and CFCs, millions lost their jobs and there was no measurable benefit.

Acid rain my ass, and what has ozone ever done for me?

[–]cryptorchidism 1 point2 points ago

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There's so much stupidity in this thread that I almost didn't catch it...

[–]stuckboy 4 points5 points ago

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So you object to state-led anti climate change measures, but you're totally cool with people buying solar panels for their house.

So lets consider for a moment that climate change isn't a hoax. If we leave it up to individuals to be proactive and all pull their weight, you'll get a small minority of optimistics vs a whole motherlode of can't be arseds and nothing will materialise.

IMHO it doesn't how eloquently you worded your argument, its still just a over-simplified generalisation.

[–]cryptorchidism 0 points1 point ago

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The problem is, there needs to be a price for actions that have a cost. If you really believed in the market you would recognize that.

Say I choose to use less gas. Gas prices therefore go down minutely, and someone else picks up my slack. The only way the society is going to reduce pollution is to make the price of pollution (and therefore fossil fuels) go up.

If you have a way to make that work without government, I'm all ears.

[–]lesalulu 9 points10 points ago

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jobs will be lost, but lots of jobs will be created. its just a shift from one focus to another

[–]Scottmkiv 2 points3 points ago

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Not all jobs are created equal. We could solve the un-employment problem by paying half the jobless people to dig holes, and the other half to fill them. That wouldn't make our economy healthier.

Quite the contrary, the taxes needed for that pointless waste would devastate the economy. Jobs are only a benefit if they are productive. That is to say, they are producing something of objective value in excess of the wage paid.

[–]cryptorchidism 0 points1 point ago

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Jobs are only a benefit if they are productive. That is to say, they are producing something of objective value in excess of the wage paid.

So you are in favor of slashing the war budget? Furthermore, you're investing far more effort into that than fighting hypothetical carbon trading schemes, right?

If there's a more literal analog to digging a hole then filling it in, I've never heard of it.

objective value

Hahahahaha that's so cute.

[–]Scottmkiv 0 points1 point ago

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Yes, I do oppose the war efforts today. Both Saddam and the Taliban were brutal dictators with no right to exist. Taking them out was well within our rights. However, turning them into decade long nation building exercises is the height of altruistic sacrifice.

[–]cryptorchidism 0 points1 point ago

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Altruistic? Too bad the Iraqis don't see it that way.

[–]Scottmkiv 0 points1 point ago

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We are absolutely sacrificing lives and treasure to help them with no hope of gain for ourselves.

They may not appreciate all the infrastructure and society we are building for them (and I suspect they will waste it all) but that doesn't negate the fact that it is a benefit.

[–]cryptorchidism 0 points1 point ago

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Yeah, who are those Iraqis to judge what'd going on in their own country. Fortunately we have the military to tell us what a good job the military is doing.

[–]Scottmkiv 0 points1 point ago

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Look, I'm no fan of the wars. I'm opposed to them because we are sacrificing ourselves. It has nothing to do with what the military thinks. I'm sure they are very good at what they do given the goals and limitations placed upon them. The fact that we won't even get a grateful ally out of the whole fiasco makes it all the more altruistic.

[–]asdfaoeu 0 points1 point ago

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There would be a shift to lower paying and more manual jobs and less goods would be produced as energy will not be able to be produced as cheaply as it can be now. Large scale energy generation has allowed society to become much more efficient.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't move from coal to other energy sources like nuclear, but we have to target this problem efficiently and not in an idealistic way. There is simply no way to continue to support the current population and eliminate all damage to the environment.

[–]OmnipotentEntity 0 points1 point ago

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Please back up your assertion that the jobs will be lower wage. Because I made a cursory google for "average wage green job" vs "average wage coal job" and the first gives me $70k/year and the second gives me $21/hr. I'm not saying this is scientific, but it does throw your assertion into doubt.

[–]lesalulu 0 points1 point ago

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i think there would be more work for educated people with a scientific background and construction workers for building more infrastructure, not more minimum wage jobs that put people in a dangerous position underground

[–]USMCLee 1 point2 points ago

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These costs are not only in dollars and cents, but also include massive job dislocation and, in all likelihood, lives lost.

[citation needed]

There was massive job dislocation with the industrial revolution so you are asserting that we should not change because there might be massive job dislocation?

[–]Askura 1 point2 points ago

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I'm going to get +1 to my despair in human nature if I see one more post that basically reiterates the phrase "We don't know for sure! So let's not change" because it will be expensive then I guess we should go back to enslaving one another in a less formal way as we currently are and bring back a whole host of things because they're cheaper.

[–]WanderingSpaceHopper 13 points14 points ago

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What I say to anyone advocating really hardcore anti-carbon and pro-ecosystem changes: You first. Really, I don't doubt that carbon emanated into the atmosphere will cause an increase in the greenhouse effect, It's easy to see the chemistry and physics behind it. But I have to say, neither hippies dancing around in drag nor kids with their iPhones and laptops will change shit. The only way to be environmentally neutral is to be fucking dead. Also, the porponents of most of the eco-friendly mega-projects couldn't defend their projects when faced with big questions about the social and economic feasibility of their projects. Are you willing to stop using so much power (or any power at all) or move to a place that's less windy or less sunny (to facilitate the building of better wind or solar power plants)? you want to help change our effect on our planet's climate? get into science, find ways to conserve and produce energy and when people ask the big questions about your solutions' feasibility don't just plug your ears and say LALALALA YOU'RE A CLIMATE CHANGE DENIER

/endrant

[–]haleym 9 points10 points ago

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You seem to think that people who advocate anti-carbon and pro-ecosystem regulations are all the "dirty smelly hippie" or "clueless techie hipster" (or whatever other negative stereotype of politically active young people you want to throw in there), and that there's no support for these policies from the actual scientific community.

You're forgetting the big thing that the actual scientists who are studying this stuff are trying to tell us: if we wait around long enough for things to get bad enough that people will be more naturally motivated to change things (because that's really what all the 'economic/social feasibility' talk is, a bunch of code words for 'but we don't wanna'), it's going to be too late (if it isn't already).

I'll admit it, you're right, I'm lazy and selfish and over-reliant on excessive energy consumption as much as the next guy. But if new laws come along, grumble as I may, I'll change my ways. And that's what we need right now, because we don't have time to wait around.

[–]WanderingSpaceHopper 1 point2 points ago

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No, the economic/social feasibility talk is not about we don't wanna, it's mostly about we probably/actually can't.

[–]haleym 0 points1 point ago

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Oh, we can, and we will, whether we want to or not. We don't really have a choice in the matter. Right now, it's really about managing/minimizing what sacrifices we end up making, rather than waiting around to see what sacrifices nature makes for us on our behalf.

[–]reallybigshark 1 point2 points ago

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it's not impossible to be environmentally neutral and be alive. People do it everyday, well people who care anyway. People who build their low-impact homes out of environmentally products/ or the environment itself, grow their own food on their own property and use renewable energy to power their homes, are pretty neutral when it comes to the environment. Look up permaculture, these people are out there.

[–]WanderingSpaceHopper 1 point2 points ago

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I doubt even doing all the shit you said about your house will make you entirely neutral. And even if it did, you gotta account for the other 7 billion people on the planet for many of whon it's simply not an option to live like that. I don't even think we'd fit on the damn plannet if we all started living like that, and then, who's gonna build the renewable power devices if everyone's a friggin farmer.

[–]SaintGenesius 0 points1 point ago

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This sorta seems like you're saying "we can't do everything, so let's not do anything", forgive me if I've misunderstood. Perfect carbon neutrality is, of course, extremely tough.

The economic feasibility bit is indeed an incredibly important discussion to have, and one that needs to happen soon. Saying "it's not currently feasible" doesn't mitigate the responsibility of people to start working toward the goal though. It's a huge problem, but it's got to be solved the same way most problems are: one step at a time. I'm not claiming infinite knowledge here but again, just because we can't do it all right now doesn't mean it can't happen at all.

[–]reallybigshark 0 points1 point ago

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Well city dwellers are the ones who lead the least sustainable lives evidenced by the fact that if supermarkets disappeared, they'd all be dead but permaculture can be applied on a societal level, so it's not impossible. There can actually still be factories too. People can live sustainable live with technology. Those things actually go well together.

There are some good tradeoffs when you throw technology in the mix. If everyone made energy at their own home, we would not need powerlines. Those are kind of disruptive to the environment and I bet they require way more materials than solar panels and turbines and what not even at millions and millions of people's homes.

And if I really want to dream....if we all had flying cars, we wouldn't need roads so imagine all the land that could be reclaimed. People don't have to live in the stone age to live sustainable lives.

[–]dugmartsch 1 point2 points ago

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I'd be happier if they'd just invent something rather than moving into some hippie commune shack in the woods that purports to be carbon neutral but isn't.

[–]cryptorchidism 0 points1 point ago

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anyone advocating really hardcore anti-carbon and pro-ecosystem changes

And who would that be? What constitutes a "hardcore anti-carbon" position?

It's a nice rant, but you seem to be attacking a straw man.

[–]hamlet9000 6 points7 points ago

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HE SPEAKS TRUTH! I have traveled back in time from the future to bring news of the horrible Solar Panel Wars of 2034! Nearly 10 whole people lost their lives in these fiercesome struggles!

Sadly, the societal collapse caused by the Solar Panel Wars have eradicated our historical records. Perhaps it is possible that in the 20th and early 21st century there were wars fought over dirty fossil fuels like oil... but in the wake of this unimaginably traumatic conflict, I have difficulty believing that such a thing would be possible.

[–]imasunbear 14 points15 points ago*

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More people die each year due to solar power related incidents than nuclear, just throwing that out there.

Fuck, now I have to find a source, brb...

EDIT: Thar we go.

Also, I'm only bringing this up because in my opinion if we want to get off of coal and natural gas (an admirable cause) the only real solution would be to use nuclear power on a large scale. This is often disregarded by so-called environmentalists as a real solution because of the nuclear waste, but in fact less nuclear waste is produced by modern nuclear plants than a standard coal plant.

yada yada yada, what I'm trying to say is nuclear ftw

[–]rupert654 7 points8 points ago

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How much money is spent on health and safety in each industry in proportion to the total amount spent in each industry?

Or another way of thinking about it, how much does it cost to ensure somebody is safe when working in the nuclear industry as compared to the solar industry?

[–]imasunbear 1 point2 points ago

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An excellent question. Would be interesting information to have, but even more useful would be to know how much energy is produced compared to how much is spent on safety. We can fairly safely assume that solar or wind costs less to ensure safety measures are met, but compare the amount spent on that to the amount of energy produced and I wouldn't be surprised if nuclear comes out on top

[–]rupert654 0 points1 point ago

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I agree but then the question of safety and its cost is merely introducing an unnecessary complication to the issue (unless it turns out to be a burden on solar power).

[–]hamlet9000 3 points4 points ago

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I'm pretty pro-nuclear power myself. But my bit wouldn't have been as funny coming from the Nuclear Wars of 2034. ;)

[–]cryptorchidism 0 points1 point ago

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less nuclear waste is produced by modern nuclear plants than a standard coal plant.

BZZZT!!! Incorrect.

The talking point you were looking for is,

More nuclear material has been released by coal power plants than in all the nuclear accidents in history.

There is still far more radioactive material in storage.

[–]tmw3000 0 points1 point ago

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Yeah, but we're talking about CO2 emissions, nuclear is good in that respect.

[–]zombiegodzilla 2 points3 points ago

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People are dying prematurely and being poisoned currently due to rare earth production and processing in inner Mongolia as you speak largely to produce high tech magnets which largely find uses in hybrid cars and wind turbines.

[–]hamlet9000 5 points6 points ago

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That doesn't shock me. Do you have any citations indicating that these mining operations are more dangerous than comparable coal mining in that region of the world?

[–]elustran 1 point2 points ago

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There is enough evidence to say that there is anthropogenic climate change. But yes, we don't know what the long-term effects will be, and we don't know that the long-term effects could be of using a few percent of the Earth's surface for renewable energy.

Suffice to say, though, fossil fuels are clearly more destructive in an immediate sense, causing orders of magnitude more deaths per megawatt-hour of energy produced. It's just hard to say what the long-term ecological and economic trade-offs will be of a renewable energy economy.

[–]selectrix 1 point2 points ago

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The point of the comic is that these costs are more or less inevitable- namely those associated with switching from a petroleum-based economy. Which is generally more expensive/disruptive: facilitating a smooth transition from one system to another while the extant system is still functioning decently, or delaying transition until the extant system begins to break down?

[–]libertao 0 points1 point ago

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the important thing that you overlook is that theres are very large costs associated

Duh -- nearly every single environmental issue that exists is about conserving the environment versus costs. The point of this cartoon is let's not forget to include these positive externalities when calculating the cost of cutting co2.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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There's also a lot of costs associated with doing noting, even if we aren't talking about the effect of climate change. This AEA paper looks at the cost of air pollution in very restricted terms. It finds there's some industries who simply cause more harm to society than the value they produce in the market.

[–]irishguy111 0 points1 point ago

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Yeah no that's balls doing nothing is gambling with evetyyhing Doing somethings beat that it's simples.

[–]hobophobe 0 points1 point ago

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The important thing that you overlook is that there are very large costs associated with reaching this golden nirvana you yearn for.

Sure. Those costs are currently called externalities and either ignored or paid for by the public.

These costs are not only in dollars and cents, but also include massive job dislocation and, in all likelihood, lives lost.

Yes. And they exist right now.

what if these anti-carbon measures are implemented and actually very effective but natural global cycles are heading us for another ice age?

Then we will prepare for an ice age. When the science points to that. It currently does not. But, many of the technologies and methodologies that are being developed and deployed to deal with a warming climate will be just as effective for an ice age. For example, you build a more energy efficient home, that means it's better insulated because insulation helps keep it warm or cool, depending on the season.

we know a lot less about global climate than we think we do.

We know a lot less about everything than we think we do. We still have to proceed on the best information we have, and that means planning and preparing for a warming climate. It doesn't mean we have to go overboard, but we have to start down that road or stop pretending to care about science at all.

If the skeptics really care about the science, and believe we need more data to make up our minds, then they should call for a major increase in the funding for climate science. We could build larger supercomputers capable of producing better models. I've never seen a skeptic, much less a denier, call for more funding for climate science.

Wishing is not the same as understanding.

Then I hope you can understand that I wish you understood.

[–]fatdefacto 0 points1 point ago

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There is also the other side, which is, what if these anti-carbon measures are implemented and actually very effective but natural global cycles are heading us for another ice age?

The problem with AGW is that it is much faster than natural climate cycles so even though we should be in a cooling phase the earth is still warming.

we know a lot less about global climate than we think we do

What the hell does that even mean? That comment is noise and posturing. Climatologists didn't just pull AGW out of their arses, it's 30 years of modelling and experimentation, all of which points to the same thing.

If you were standing on the road and a car was coming at you, you don't sit there and wait because you are only 99% positive that the car is going to hit you.

[–]airhuff 0 points1 point ago

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Doubt among peers is the most important part of the scientific method. That said, I am not a scientist, at least, not one in a relevant field, and must yield to the opinions of experts, because I know I don't have the time to be well-read in every scientific debate I ever see anywhere. Sure, I know the basic mechanics and hypotheses, but certainly not enough to form a coherent argument of use to scientists, so I've learned to just go with the flow and trust what most relevant scientists tend to believe, in spite of the very real possibilities of confirmation bias, corruption, etc.

If it helps describe it any better, if you watch any medical dramas, you're being that frustrating guy that constantly refuses treatment because he thinks his doctors don't know what they're doing, and subsequently almost kills himself before the doctors magically save the day.

[–]BeefPieSoup 0 points1 point ago

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a) It is creating jobs in different industries, and improving the economy since money is being spent on research and innovation.

b) Lives lost? Explain. In fact, if nothing is done and there is increasing desertification and loss of sea life (therefore less food), this will result in loss of life.

c) We have evidence that the planet is getting warmer. Where have you been for the past two decades that you did not know this?

I think you are quite misinformed.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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in all likelihood, lives lost.

Gonna have to back that one up.

[–]cryptorchidism 0 points1 point ago

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Every time this comic is posted, someone tries to look intelligent by invoking opportunity cost. Every time it's just as stupid.

Also, "ice ages" wtf? We know what causes those, and we're not due for another 40,000 years.

[–]cryptorchidism 0 points1 point ago

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massive job dislocation and lives lost

Sounds like global warming.

[–]ethraax 0 points1 point ago

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There is also the other side, which is, what if these anti-carbon measures are implemented and actually very effective but natural global cycles are heading us for another ice age?

NASA's climate page cites over a dozen peer-reviewed articles and studies. We know that global warming exists. The only valid debate in scientific circles now is whether or not that global warming is caused by human activity or if it's natural. But we're definitely not heading for another ice age at this moment in time.

[–]sapienwaste 38 points39 points ago

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I think this is analogous to walking over to /r/atheism and saying, "Religion makes people good, whats the problem!?"

[–]deepfriedsashimi 7 points8 points ago

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Good parenting makes people good too. And there's less explaining of stuff to do.

[–]Elbows 2 points3 points ago

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It does?

[–]cryptorchidism 0 points1 point ago

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[–]enersthemmingwhat 0 points1 point ago

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no, /r/pics is now /r/nopoliticsEVENPROGRESSIVEPOLITICSplz

[–]sapienwaste 0 points1 point ago

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The factual nature of atheism\climate wasn't what I was addressing, I was addressing the fallacy that all efforts for conservation will be productive completely. I was also hinting at the fact that you can do something good for the wrong reason in many other areas as well.

That's the answer to your question, now I think I'll label you as a divisive small minded zealot. I'll also suggest you piss off.

[–]cryptorchidism 0 points1 point ago

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Suggestion noted.

Why did you choose /r/atheism in your analogy? Is /r/pics expected to be actively hostile to the reality of climate change, as /r/atheism is actively hostile to the fantasy of religion? If so, is /r/pics now /r/climatedenial?

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]Travesura 1 point2 points ago

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Wow! A real solution that we can all get behind! ;)

[–]cryptorchidism 0 points1 point ago

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Good thing Goldman Sachs makes no money off fossil fuels. DrakeBishoff would really let 'em have it!

[–]_BenKenobi_ 2 points3 points ago

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I really think the original comic portrays it the best: Even if we can't alter the damage done by humans, or just the Earth naturally going through cooling and warming phases, what in the hell is wrong with trying to slowly transition away from fossil fuels? They're fossil fuels. They. Will. Run. Out.

[–]bokbok 2 points3 points ago

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Why can't we just go back to calling it pollution? No body likes pollution. Gives things a more negative connotation, making it easier for people to remind themselves they should do something to help eliminate pollution.

[–]deweyweber 2 points3 points ago

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I, for one, do not think that a Cap and Trade Market on carbon credits, brokered by Goldman Sachs, had anything to do with climate change or a better world. It had everything to do with grabbing money and power.

[–]cryptorchidism 0 points1 point ago

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Goldman Sachs profits from dirty energy too. What's your point?

[–]enersthemmingwhat 0 points1 point ago

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This is like someone accusing the financiers of one side in a war of instigating the war and you countering with "impossible, they are financing the other side as well!"

[–]cryptorchidism 0 points1 point ago

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Never said it's "impossible." Just that it's irrelevant.

[–]enersthemmingwhat 1 point2 points ago

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Ok, that is fair enough. I read too much into your statement.

[–]tmw3000 0 points1 point ago

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You can thank your Republican representatives for that. The original proposal from the left were taxes - exactly because there is no GS-middle man, and less room for manipulation.

Then the right (and economists - the right was correct this time) argued that Cap and Trade is better at reducing the most emissions for the lowest possible cost.

Surprise: a few years later these right wing idiots turn around and attack the scheme that they originally wanted.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]cryptorchidism 0 points1 point ago

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I'm against taxing every breath you take.

Is anyone for that? Seriously, I'd love to know who you're responding to here.

CO2 you exhale came from plants, which came from the air. Only fossil fuels count.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points ago

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r/politics

[–]cryptorchidism 0 points1 point ago

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[–]Axemantitan 8 points9 points ago

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[–]ShamAbram 13 points14 points ago

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If it's a big hoax, we're poorer and more stupid due to negligence of healthy skepticism in replacement of pricey federal regulation.

[–]goodgord 1 point2 points ago

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Not to mention having suffered a complete and global failure of our application of the scientific method.

[–]UpsideDownAbe 4 points5 points ago

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I always love the people to yell HYDROGEN HYDROGEN... it's clean/safe... etc..

How the fuck are you making the Hydrogen? Unless someone figures out fusion, or a better way to do things, we're creating more gasses in the pursuit of being pompous.

[–]ThePoopsmith 2 points3 points ago

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creating more gasses in the pursuit of being pompous.

That could be the motto of /r/politics.

[–]theresafire 3 points4 points ago

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Might be brushed over, but one of the most significant things we can do to reduce our energy consumption is also the cheapest.

Energy Efficiency is extremely cheap, and extremely beneficial... Not only will it reduce the need for new power plants, it will lighten the base load as a whole, reducing the need for coal power plants (generally the main base load production)

Once we've exhausted energy efficiency measures, than it makes sense to look at replacing coal/gas plants with things like nuclear (which do create tons of pollution in their construction due to the cement needed, however over their lifetime the pollution compared to energy produced is lower than pretty much everything except wind/solar, and is comparable to them).

The best part is everyone wins with energy efficiency, homeowners/businesses save money from reduced energy consumption, and power generators need not be totally destroyed depending on how its done....

If we were to actually make our businesses (how many stores do you see with lights on all night...waste), homes, etc., more efficient, we can limit our pollution benefiting society as a whole.

[–]cryptorchidism 0 points1 point ago

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The problem with efficiency is that there's just not enough of it. In Renewable Energy without Hot Air, he starts off by assuming that everyone weatherizes, uses heat pumps, electric cars, etc. And the energy needs are still enormous.

We should do it, definitely. But efficiency can't avoid lifestyle changes.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]regularmonkey 1 point2 points ago

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There are people doubting any climate change at all, and there are other people who just doubt the reason is CO2 emissions.

[–]StartSelect 0 points1 point ago

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I can only but agree with you. I am from southern England, and for the past 8-9 years I have noticed a huuge change in the seasons, and how long they last for. In the smallest nutshell I can put it in - our summers have been getting shorter and earlier (although we had 3 days of 28c last week, now back to rain and cold) and our winters are WAAY colder and longer. From the ages of 3-18 I saw snow in england once or twice, and it was lame snow. The past 3-4 years we have had massive amounts of snow, last winter being a record, and this year we are forecast last years snow X30 apparently. Crazy shit. Not that it matters.. polar shift next year and all!!

EDIT Idiotic spelling

[–]the_one2 0 points1 point ago

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Global warming refers to the fact that the average global temperature is rising.

[–]njm1314 2 points3 points ago

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Yes but if we don't say Climate Change stupid people will claim that every time it snows in winter the theory is debunked.

[–]_BenKenobi_ 1 point2 points ago

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When I hear someone say that, the harpdarp face comes to mind, and I know that conversation can really go no further.

[–]cryptorchidism 0 points1 point ago

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"Global warming" makes my idiot detector more reliable.

[–]Phlebas99 1 point2 points ago

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Technology got us into this problem.

ONLY Technology will get us out of it.

[–]cryptorchidism 0 points1 point ago

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Economics got us into this problem. The technology's been around for decades.

[–]pixiestick 1 point2 points ago

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I rather liked this take on things...but maybe I've just been conditioned to always agree with David Mitchell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI5ulKiZAoE

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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I've seen this one. What happens is, rather than fixing our world we find a rip in the fabric of time and send everyone 85 million years into the past.

[–]otherchedcaisimpostr 1 point2 points ago

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i thought so too, but people have noticed major ecological changes (like growing plants at altitudes that were never before possible) and that just cant be overlooked

[–]CrazyTriangle 1 point2 points ago

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Drastic over-simplifications like this ruin good discussion over what should be done with the energy crisis. As someone who is for moving more toward green energy, even this annoys me. Every form of green energy has significant drawbacks, and that fact cannot be ignored.

[–]Sharrakor 4 points5 points ago

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What if it's an r/politics post and we put it in r/pics for nothing?

[–]bdisalle 0 points1 point ago

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The message has nothing to do with the government. It's that there are plenty of very good reasons to switch to alternative energy besides climate change. Burning fossil fuels pollutes the environment. It's not just CO2, it's emission of sulfur and nitrates that contribute to smog and acid rain, as well as heavy metals such as mercury. Not to mention the environmental damages due to mining, oil spills etc. Fossil fuels won't last forever. Energy use all over the world is increasing. We need to switch to renewable energy at some point. The problem is that it will take a significant investment either from government or the private sector . The return of renewable energy will be both environmental and economical. We just have to decide to do it. To quote some smart people, >" We suggest producing all new energy with WWS by 2030 and replacing the pre-existing energy by 2050. Barriers to the plan are primarily social and political, not technological or economic. The energy cost in a WWS world should be similar to that today."

Energy Policy Volume 39, Issue 3, March 2011, Pages 1154-1169

Article in Scientific American by same guys

[–]Gibson19 2 points3 points ago

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Nobody seems to understand opportunity cost.

Spend a couple billion on climate change and you've taken a couple billion out of potential healthcare or education.

Also worth noting is there is a socially conscience level of pollution (whether its SO2 or Carbon or whatever). Taken into account the costs and benefits of pollution clean up we can find the ideal amount. However estimates for carbon cleanup vary sooo much. Thus we have debates over which policies to enact (cap and trade or taxes).

[–]cryptorchidism 0 points1 point ago

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Taken into account the costs and benefits of pollution clean up we can find the ideal amount. However estimates for carbon cleanup vary sooo much.

This is the exact argument in favor of cap-and-trade.

[–]Gibson19 0 points1 point ago

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Well actually. When you have a relatively level cost curve (ie one more ton of carbon has a little effect on the well being of society). It is more efficient to implement a tax policy. The dead weight loss to society is minimized in this case with a tax. However, the opposite is true with a steep cost curve. In that case a cap and trade policy will achieve the desired level of pollution with a lower cost. Maximizing net benefits to society

To make a purely economical determination as to which policy is better, you need to either decide if the cost curve is steep and choose a cap and trade policy, or if it's not steep at all, choose a tax policy.

But you're right. A cap and trade policy is a safer bet when costs are unkown. It is also easier to change the desired level of pollution by weaning companies off permits as opposed to raising the tax until the desired level of pollution is achieved.

[–]thiswasthelastname 3 points4 points ago

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I respect 9/11 truthers more than I respect climate change deniers.

At least with 9/11, there's some ambiguity in the 'data' for a problem that hasn't been globally crowd sourced.

[–]cheechw 1 point2 points ago

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What if it isn't a hoax and we all die?

[–]cryptorchidism 0 points1 point ago

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Spoiler alert: we all die in either case.

[–]KillaSmurfPoppa 0 points1 point ago*

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I get the message of the cartoon but unfortunately it seems to be conflating carbon emissions (global warming) with pollutants. Reducing the amount of C02 in the atmosphere won't produce cleaner air or water. Some of the other listed benefits listed are iffy as well, of course, given climate projections I'd say reducing carbon emissions alone is enough of a benefit.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points ago

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Carbon dioxide and more severe pollutants come from the same places though. Burning coal mainly produces carbon dioxide, but it also spews ash, mercury, carbon monoxide, sulfur dioxide, among others.

So, reducing use of fossil fuels in general is probably worth it even without the risk of climate change.

[–]ThePoopsmith 0 points1 point ago

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Yeah, you know those plants also emit dihydrogen monoxide. We really need to regulate DHM more, that stuff is responsible for thousands of deaths every year.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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Except we need water live, but we don't need to inhale particulate matter and smog.

[–]ThePoopsmith 0 points1 point ago

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Umm, we'd also be in very serious trouble without sufficient carbon dioxide levels too. Plants kinda need the stuff.

[–]kolm[!] 3 points4 points ago

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Who would tell you that? The science is clear on it, everybody in Europe accepts it as a bothersome fact.

[–]nopurposeflour 1 point2 points ago

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You think of reposts?

[–]rab777hp 1 point2 points ago

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The amazing thing would be if they took their skepticism to their religion as well...

"The world is definitely 5,000 years old, my pastor told me. He seems like a nice boy."

"Decades of research and the worlds top scientists all saying the same thing? Well are we sure about this?"

[–]GerkSprongle2 1 point2 points ago

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Try looking up Agenda 21 to find out the start of this hoax.

[–]Satanic_Mage 1 point2 points ago

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Actually Carbon taxes if put into place would severely fuck up the economy along with economic growth. Although I am for free market solutions.

[–]cryptorchidism 0 points1 point ago

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severely fuck up the economy

Global drought, population migration, and famine on the other hand...

economic growth

Endless growth is the ideology of a cancer cell.

[–]myne 2 points3 points ago

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I go for the steel argument.

It's one even the most idiotic person can comprehend.

It goes something like this:

We need steel. Steel needs coal. If we burn all the coal, we can make no more steel - at least not the high quality we have today. Therefore we effectively doom our grandchildren to an agrarian culture without steel.

So, if you want to burn all the coal in the world as fast as possible, you're an asshole who doesn't give a shit about the human race.

[–][deleted] ago*

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[deleted]

[–]ohgr4213 1 point2 points ago*

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I'm a economics graduate and have never heard anyone make this "steel argument," where and who referred you to it?

As mentioned in other posts, your assumptions are not consistent with a functional market economy. Econ 101: Quantity supplied and price are determined by the supply and demand for the product. Given this is the case, it would be reasonable for a current private owner of coal, were we to be systematically overconsuming, to lower his quantity supplied knowing that since quantity supplied on the entire market is larger than the equilibrium quantity demanded, the price of coal must also be lower than equilibrium price, which will mean that once there is a market correction we should see, all else equal, a roughly proportional inversion of these 2 characteristics. IE an expectation that the quantity provided of coal will be below what all else equal would have been the efficient quantity of coal to supply. This also means an inversion of the price, meaning that price per quantity of coal should rise above the otherwise equilibrium price.

Since private actors are privately motivated, they, if given the choice would underconsume from their capital stock (the amount they have in the ground) during a time of overproduction by their competitors knowing, this tendency for increased reward is how the market self corrects for innefficient allocations of resources. You seem to suggest that the market doesn't correct, but that is confusing because how did coal get a market price at all if that is the case? and why is it at where its at and why did it change price at all if the market doesn't correct?

If you gave me some actual numbers I could go through and calculate what should be the most productive rate of production for the mine. You think private owners of mines would economically hurt themselves by over producing in the short term at all else equal lower prices? Not if they can help it. Economically nothing special happens when there is less than half of a resource left either (peak oil.) Further I feel you are assuming that "we are on this earth and it is all we have," just like your easter island example which looks at easter island as a zero sum, which is an assumption I strongly disagree with, we are going to leave this planet pretty soon and the quantity of resources in space is massive, don't get locked into thinking of earth as a zero sum game and the only source for resources.

I'm gonna list some of your quotes and respond:

"So, if you want to burn all the coal in the world as fast as possible, you're an asshole who doesn't give a shit about the human race." Not a single perspective offers such a point of view (straw man.)

"If we did, we'd be cutting population growth to zero,..." Population comment is basically a repeat of Malthus' famous population argument and has refuted for the last 200 years, Statistical methods predict world population will peak between 10-12 billion most likely, with the max possibly being as high at 16 billion before naturally receding down to 3-5 billion (given natural demographic shifts seen in the first world with birth rates in many places receding lower than replacement levels, with no centralized intervention required.) In the first world it is more effecient for a family to invest in a single or small amount of children than a large amount like in a strictly agrarian society.

[–]mrahh 1 point2 points ago

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Except that the steel that we have already made isn't going anywhere for a good while and it can be recycled.

[–]iSkat3 0 points1 point ago

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Well I will be the one to list all the problems with renewable resources, clean energy, and a healthier tomorrow.

[–]zxcv73 2 points3 points ago

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What if we put the power into a governments hands, and they actually make it worst? Like they have already been doing for 100 years?

[–]betbrett 3 points4 points ago

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I don't know anyone that thinks climate change is a hoax. I do know many people that think man made climate change is a hoax.

[–]gimmebeer 1 point2 points ago

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The climate of our planet is constantly changing, get over it.

[–]Rixalabur 2 points3 points ago

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That was a very cute and naive post.

It's more that you will be taxed to hell, to pay companies who will clean things up for you. Now, if it isn't necessary to do this, why pay for it? Can you see the bigger picture now?

[–]funkme1ster -1 points0 points ago

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The issue isn't whether or not the climate can change. Ice cores and other proxies (most notably glaciers) give proof that Earth's climate has entered into at least one ice age in the past. Anyone who believes that the planet's climate never has and never will change is absolutely naive.

The issue of debate is if the current rate of climate change is anthropogenic in origin and if so the extent to which.

The planet has undergone stark temperature changes in the past, under circumstances which are not 100% known but it's safe to assume did not occur under conditions rapid fossil fuel burning.

Therefore, the big issue here is that environmental damage from human activity is a reality that needs to be addressed and the atmosphere is undergoing change, but we lack sufficient data to predict how much influence we've had on the current state of affairs and how much ability we have at present to influence change from here on out. Thus, people are right to be skeptical about what measures we should take until we can get solid empirical data on the results.

For the sake of argument, I'm not considering people who oppose everything because they're fundamentally against it.

[–]mmforeal 1 point2 points ago

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Ya I mean, who in the right mind would ever voice skepticism over a political agenda promulgating an apocalyptic 'or else!'. Its not like politicians are known for manufacturing crises to spur voters into action

[–]thisisweaksauce 1 point2 points ago

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Again, this is why we need to get money out of politics. The main reason that there is denial is because corporations have paid the Republicans. Climate change legislation hurts the corporation; thus, they pay off the Republicans and have them spread a culture of fear and denial. There is no reason that climate change should be so politicized - there is overwhelming scientific consensus on it. It's fact. This fact is denied because the corporations are only looking out for themselves and their short term profit.

[–]mmforeal 3 points4 points ago

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Ya I mean, who in the right mind would ever voice skepticism over a political agenda promulgating an apocalyptic 'or else!'. Its not like politicians are known for manufacturing crises to spur voters into action

[–]anrole 1 point2 points ago

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Wow, I wasn't expecting responses like this.. Where to begin?

Expanding renewable energy production in no way necessitates the introduction of some economy-crushing legislation. It sounds as if most of you are of the view that any plan to expand the renewable industry must, by nature, include some form of a carbon tax. I agree, that would be bad policy - as would be the investing of taxpayer dollars into specific firms. But have none of you considered that macroeconomic solutions like subsidies would not only be both cheap and effective, but would also pose little of negative externalities? This leads me to my next point...

The expansion of renewables as accomplished through subsidies would not increase the price of energy in general, but would decrease it. The greater the competition between energy producers, the cheaper energy will get. That's like a tax cut for every individual and business in our country. As the renewable industry got its feet firmly planted the government could wean it of these modest subsidies.

And forget climate change for a moment; perhaps, as some have suggested, human activity is merely speeding up some unavoidable natural process. Assuming this is the case, expanding the production of renewables would nevertheless still have tangible, significant ecological benefits. Air quality would improve, not only around coal-burning plants, but likely around urban centers too; as the price of electricity lowered and lowered from increased energy competition the relative cost of electric-powered vehicles would lower too and thus make them much more attractive economically speaking. If it so came to pass that the renewable industry came to dominate that of fossil fuel producers, the risk of disasters like oil spills, like the one presently taking place in NZ, would decrease dramatically.

TLDR: most of the people commenting here seem to have a problem with bad renewable policy but for whatever reason cannot seem to grasp that good policy is very, very feasible, and would have major economic benefits in addition to environmental ones.

[–]US_Ranger 3 points4 points ago

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I'm note getting your argument here. You're talking about subsidizing renewable energy and then in the next sentence you're talking about competition between energy producers. So we have the government using money (taxpayer money) and that will fuel competition? So does the government pick who wins since they have unlimited money (taxpayer money) to spend on who they want? Or will they continue to make HORRIBLE choices (Solyndra) that benefit friends of those in power?

Here is the problem with the "save the planet" people......you trust the government. This is the same government that has screwed up every single thing they've done since I can remember.

[–]sacrabos -2 points-1 points ago

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The part about the "man-made CO2 problem" that people don't want to admit is that part that's man made. By people just sitting around an breathing. 1 person produces about 1.5 tons of CO2 every year just existing. That means simply having people produces more CO2 than the "pollution" figures stated for China (currently the largest global CO2 producer). By the time you factor in methane and water vapor, the greenhouse gasses produced by humans is probably worse than feared.

So if you are serious about combating CO2 pollution, you need to start taking people out via Carousel, Soylent Green, some yet unknown (or for you conspiracy theorists, already known) viral plague.

Now on the other side - Conservatives are for a lot of the measures, too. After all, Conservatives know turning out lights, using less water, etc saves money. And there's nothing wrong with that. And many do exactly that every day. Al Gore, not so much. Geoffrey Orsak did a TEDx thing on stuff like this of just simply using less.

However, when you start creating an obscure set of regulations and taxes and carbon trading markets, all you are doing if creating a odd side economy of things to make other people rich and powerful, while sucking out real resources and money from where it can be better spent.

And worse, there is absolutely no assurance that it will allow us to micro manage the amount of global CO2 in the atmosphere to within 0.0001% of some perceived "optimal" value.

[–]classyplanet 4 points5 points ago

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People's metabolic rate is around 100 watts - more while excercising, less while sleeping. That limits how much CO2 we can expire. Even if we ~vent all our metabolic rate through CO2 production, it is in the order of 100 watts per person. The average modern energy consumption in the USA is in the order of 10,000 watts per person - 100 times their metabolic rate. This energy consumption has historically been supplied by inefficient and dirty burning of fossil fuels.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points ago

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Human impact is absolutely negligible compared to cow farts and decomposing foliage.

[–]reallybigshark 5 points6 points ago

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cow farts are human impact.

[–]MotharChoddar 2 points3 points ago

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It's actually cow burps.

[–]cryptorchidism 0 points1 point ago*

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1 person produces about 1.5 tons of CO2 every year

BZZZT!!!

The average human produces about 300-400 kg of CO2 per year due to respiration. That CO2 also doesn't count, since it was recently absorbed by plants.

However, when you start creating an obscure set of regulations and taxes and carbon trading markets, all you are doing if creating a odd side economy of things to make other people rich and powerful, while sucking out real resources and money from where it can be better spent.

Pollution taxes aren't "obscure." Pollution trading was fantastically successful at reducing NOx pollution, and at far lower cost than the professional economists of the day predicted.

I'm a simple man. I want governments to stop playing favorites, and make companies clean up their mess. How is that "odd?"

[–]magictoenail 0 points1 point ago

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The best part is the black lady with her head turned a full 180 effortlessly, like, boy what did you just say?

[–]The_Absurdist 0 points1 point ago

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In my opinion, there oughtn't be a debate about whether global warming is an issue or not. I believe the issue for someone who believes the concept is a contested one is that it takes time, inclination, and money to do something about it, which, if it's a hoax, will make life demonstrably worse. It hinges, too, on what extent humans have caused and can intervene with climate change (i.e., whether, if it is true, we can even do anything about it).

[–]cryptorchidism 0 points1 point ago

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if it's a hoax

This is not a credible idea.

whether, if it is true, we can even do anything about it

We're already doing something about it. We're causing it. The question is, can we stop?

[–]The_Absurdist 0 points1 point ago

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I believe the extent to which we're personally responsible for causing it (or to what degree) is still a contested issue. I haven't stated my position one way or the other, just that I don't think this point is collectively agreed-upon yet in the scientific community.

[–]cryptorchidism 0 points1 point ago

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Personally, as in each-and-every one of us?

"Responsibility" sounds more like an economic/moral issue than a scientific one.

[–]The_Absurdist 0 points1 point ago

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Personally, as in 'people as a whole' (not individual people). Responsibility is a moral and economic issue: it's the response end of things, depending on the veracity of the scientific claims. My point is that if the veracity of some claims are still contested, we can't automatically assume responsibility. Or, put another way, our responsibility in the matter becomes hard to decide if we don't know--as I've said--to what extent we've caused global warming and whether, in any event, we can do anything about it. Again, I will reiterate: I haven't stated my position on any of this, just my opinion on why subsidizing solutions remains a heated issue for some.

[–]cryptorchidism 0 points1 point ago

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My point is that if the veracity of some claims are still contested, we can't automatically assume responsibility

That's silly. The veracity of all claims are constantly being contested. It's called "science."

We always act on incomplete information. Otherwise we would be paralyzed and unable to do anything.

Also, I don't propose we "automatically assuming responsibility." That would involve enormous climate reparations to developing nations. I only propose that we stop continuing the damage.

[–]The_Absurdist 0 points1 point ago

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You're splitting hairs here. Take 'contested' to mean 'highly contested," in which case we shouldn't automatically assume responsibility. And when you propose that we "stop continuing the damage," you're smuggling in your premise that we've caused or added to global warming, which I'm suggesting is the highly contested statement we're arguing about; not that global warming isn't a phenomenon. When you say that we "stop continuing the damage," you're making a statement about the degree to which we've caused global warming, which I'm suggesting here, is still under debate.

[–]cryptorchidism 0 points1 point ago

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I'm not smuggling anything in. I'm stating it boldly.

It's not under debate. Powerful interests (basically the coal, oil, and shipping companies) want to convince people there's a debate, just like Biblical literalists want to convince people that there's "debate" on evolution. It's simply not there. It's the kooks and shills vs. everyone else.

Indicators of human fingerprints on climate change.

97-98% of active climatologists agree with the AGW consensus (2009 data)

[–]bopoe 0 points1 point ago

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No one for climate change is against those things. Don't put words in the mouths of others.

[–]mtux96 0 points1 point ago

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No one for climate change Some who have a different belief on man-made global warming is against those things. Don't put words in the mouths of others.

I don't necessarily believe the increasing temps are man-made or that we have any control on the cycle of things, but I do agree that newer technology does need to come to fruition, just to continue to innovate and advance and improve ourselves.

[–]ForcedZucchini 0 points1 point ago

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so when people tell you climate change is a hoax, you think about thinking about climate change is a hoax?

[–]MrMercurial 0 points1 point ago

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I think we ought to try to ensure that the world the next generation inherits is at least as good as the one we did (I think that's a duty of every generation towards the next). That probably means changing our habits, consuming less, and being more creative about what we do consume.

Will it be tricky to know exactly what we need to do to achieve this? Sure, but if everyone could just agree to this basic principle then that would still be a pretty important step.

[–]mdk2all 0 points1 point ago

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If Jesus is a hoax, do I become a good person for nothing?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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[–]Hector_Kur 0 points1 point ago

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TIL Reddit is filled with far more scientific illiterates than I would have guessed.

[–]thebedshow 0 points1 point ago

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Vilifying people who ask questions is the best course of action!

[–]CodeandOptics 0 points1 point ago

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What if we throw around a bunch of feel good buzzwords and a lifetime of work of millions of people is taxed away, wasted by corrupt politicians and special interests and nothing changes?

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]Clearchus 1 point2 points ago

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Yes, I believe global warming is an incredible coincidence too! it happened 5.8million years ago and any non-retarded person would conclude its the same thing as today.

[–]cryptorchidism 0 points1 point ago

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Oh yeah, the PETM. That's the one where many terrestrial mammals went extinct, right?

Well, I'm reassured.

[–]sidharth7 -2 points-1 points ago

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Quite shocked at Reddit. I have started browsing Reddit in the last few months and this thread goes completely against the image of Reddit I had built up in my mind. I am hoping this thread is new and for what ever reason does not reflect the majority of opinions yet. In my head redditors are supposed to be smart individuals who don't fall for propaganda and trust in science. When major scientific organisations of all the industrialised nations agree with climate change and are actively proposing we do something about it how is it up to anyone individual to think it is a matter of believing or not? Science is there. Is gravity a matter of believing? Is astronomy? Shocked at you reddit. EDIT: Formatting

[–]regularmonkey 0 points1 point ago

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One should differentiate more precisely what statements and evidences are given. Climate changes already have occured long before humans existed on this planet. If there's a climate change happening right now, the reason must not necessarily be anthropogenic CO2 emissions. So the most responsible way to deal with the change would be not only to avoid contributing to the assumed reasons, but to also prepare for the changes happening anyway.