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It's Unnatural! (2.bp.blogspot.com)
submitted 10 months ago by mmx64
[–]PrawnWonton 19 points20 points21 points 10 months ago
You might want to read this
Then update your numbers.
[–]one_wicked_element 20 points21 points22 points 10 months ago
..."homosexual behavior has been observed in close to 1,500 species".
And now you know, the rest of the story.
[–]imrickjamesbyach 22 points23 points24 points 10 months ago
He said over 450. 1,500 is still greater than 450.
[Melvin.]
[–][deleted] 10 months ago
[deleted]
[–]ZeroNihilist 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
Some animals have "misfired" sex, where they just target the wrong sex (by accident or as part of, as you said, a "fuck anything in sight" strategy). Others however have genuine, lasting homosexual relationships that extend beyond coitus (though the animals themselves may be bisexual in some cases). The link provided lists a few examples - suggested reading (to give you a sample of the different behaviours) is Black Swans, Penguins, Vultures, the Bonobo, Elephants, Giraffes, Sheep, and Spotted Hyena (though I'd recommend reading everything anyway).
[–]ZeroNihilist 2 points3 points4 points 10 months ago
Any two people of the same sex that are friends are technically in a homosexual relationship given that friendship is a type of relationship and homosexual means of the same gender. What makes a homosexual relationship "gay" is that the homosexuals involved are fucking each other.
All of the examples I mentioned do have same-sex intercourse. Some of them also stay together and (if they can get some) raise children together.
It always bothers me when things are worded like "misfired sex" because is portrays any sexual orientation differing from the standard as a defect.
I explained what I meant by "misfired" sex. It isn't homosexual sex, which is perfectly natural. It is when an organism is incapable of accurately determining the sex of a prospective partner, but fucks it anyway. As in, the organism intends to have heterosexual intercourse but its recognition "misfires" (very commonly observed in species with little sexual differentiation, or in environments where those differentiating details aren't evident).
That said, I don't see anything wrong with acting on impulses unless they are the kind of impulses that lead you one to actually inflict harm on others. Do what thou wilt and all that jazz.
Absolutely. In my view you should be allowed to do anything which doesn't impinge on the rights of others.
[–]AtheismBot 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
I'm sure ZeroNihilist was using the term "misfired" in a strictly Darwinian sense.
[–]Igtheo 12 points13 points14 points 10 months ago
Fun fact: homosexual behavior is necessary for reproduction in at least two species (that I know of). (The New Mexican Whiptail and at least one kind of limpet.)
[–]Ragark 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
Lesbian sex is needed for at least one species of lizard. There are no males.
[–]Zeike 2 points3 points4 points 10 months ago
I think you're probably thinking of the New Mexico Whiptails, which don't have lesbian sex, they don't have sex at all. They're parthenogenic.
EDIT: I just read that some of the Whiptails actually do have mating behaviors between two females, but it of course isn't necessary for the females to lay eggs, but it increases fecundity. So you could say they do have lesbian sex.
[–]Igtheo 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
Huh. All right, not necessary, but helpful.
[–]the_codfather 7 points8 points9 points 10 months ago
Aren't there millions of species out there? How do you know which species reject homosexuality? I'm not homophobic. I just think this quote is stupid.
[–]falloutman 3 points4 points5 points 10 months ago
My first thought was of the huge number of species. Whether it be 500 or 1500 observed, its not a good ratio.
[–]neduil 5 points6 points7 points 10 months ago
I think the right perspective is: we didn't run those experiments on every species. So we have to know on how many species this experiment to observe homosexuality was run, so we can tell the percentage of observed species that have homosexuals.
Also, if every species was observed for both behaviors and within the observed species 1500 accepted homosexuality and 1 rejected it, then that's very significant data, because the sample is quite large, no matter what's the total number of species.
[–]falloutman 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
I completely agree and to clarify, I'm not siding with the "It's Unnatural" crowd, just pointing out were the pic could be better. Is the data out there?
[–]neduil 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago*
To be honest, I don't even know if there's data. I know there are books about sexuality in animals, and even homosexuality in animals. But I've never read one. Maybe someone could provide a link...
EDIT: BTW, don't worry. I know you are not siding with them, I see you are trying to be scientific... But I thought I should contribute with my $0,02 on science.
[–]Nikoras -1 points0 points1 point 10 months ago
Not to mention the whole fact of us being the only self aware species and the only one's capable of pondering morality. This reminds me of the whole "but it's natural." argument for marijuana; there are hundreds of good arguments for the legalization of weed, but that is not one of them. Huge carbon monoxide deposits and arsenic are natural as well but that's not a good reason to have them around.
[–]neduil 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
We are not the only self ware species. We are just smarter than monkeys, for example, but even they are capable of moral judgement.
Did you know most monkey species endorse prostitution, for example? The female monkeys sell themselves for extra food and shelter. And no male monkey opposes to this practice.
But they condemn stealing. Severely. In some species the thief gets thrown out of the group, in some, they get stoned.
I never thought National Geographic would come in handy... XD
[–]ForWhatReason 2 points3 points4 points 10 months ago
I miss old Discovery channel...
[–]AtheistEvey 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
Female penguins endorse prostitution as well. The male penguin basically pays in pebbles and rocks, for the female's nest and the young she already has.
[The More You Know!]
[–]IAmNotAPerson6 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
I would actually like to find out if there are any homophobic species other than us out there.
[–]SaultSpartan 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
We see other species neglecting their offspring because they are albino, or different in some way. I don't think that only the human race is homophobic...
[–]AtheistEvey 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
I'm no expert, but I'd think that because albinism (or any other recessive gene that makes an animal look or operate differently) gives animals in the wild less chance for survival. Those animals that abandon young that don't look right aren't being prejudiced, they're being realistic.Those offspring aren't very likely to survive, thrive and produce offspring of their own.
The albino snake can't hunt as effectively as the snake who is camouflaged with his surroundings. The albino alligator isn't going to take anyone by surprise because her prey can see her from a large distance.
[–]xtfr 5 points6 points7 points 10 months ago
Other thing other species do: cannibalism, incest, murder, rape, public nudity (even the fat and old ones). Not that I'm anti-gay; it's just a poor argument.
[–]I_I_I_I_am_the_owl 3 points4 points5 points 10 months ago
No, the reason this argument is brought up is not to justify homosexuality. It's supposed to counter the argument that homosexuality is bad because it's unnatural/going against "God's design" or whatever the fuck.
[–]StarlessKnight 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
Doesn't that make it a decent argument? "It [heterosexuality] is natural" is such a bad argument you can justify cannibalism and murder using it too.
[–]Angry_Grammarian 2 points3 points4 points 10 months ago
No, because that's not what they mean by 'unnatural'. When Xians say that it is 'unnatural' they do not mean that it doesn't occur in nature---that's fucking stupid. What they mean is that it violates the Natural Law Theory (a system of ethics based on teleology).
[–]popcorncolonel 5 points6 points7 points 10 months ago
What does this have to do with atheism?
[–]DarkKobold 4 points5 points6 points 10 months ago
Came here to post this. Since when did r/atheism become r/liberal or r/homosexual?
[–]josiahw 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
Exactly. There are plenty of atheist homophobes.
[–]popcorncolonel 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
LIKE ME.
[–]weiss5256 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago
I remember one of my friends said that to me, and I shot back "It's funny how we're also the smartest species". I don't actually believe that (I thought it was a witty comeback though) but this is more of a propaganda type statement than something you should base ideas or laws around. There is an overwhelming amount of moral and legal justification for things like gay marriage and rights but this isn't one of them.
Turns out it is a very rare cave salamander.
[–]rahtin 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
It seems unnatural to me that I saw this on facebook before reddit.
[–]lollerkeet -2 points-1 points0 points 10 months ago
Naturalistic Fallacy. Poor logic does not belong here.
[–]Angry_Grammarian -2 points-1 points0 points 10 months ago
How many times do we have to have this discussion? When Xians say that it is 'unnatural' they do not mean that it doesn't occur in nature---that's fucking stupid. What they mean is that it violates the Natural Law Theory (a system of ethics based on teleology).
Leave the straw man alone and stop making the same mistake that you so often criticize the Xians of making (misrepresenting our beliefs).
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
How does homosexuality violate Natural Law Theory? What is NLT based on, if not (human) nature? I thought that was the point of natural law.
[–]Angry_Grammarian 0 points1 point2 points 10 months ago
Read this:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/natural-law-ethics/
Short form: it violates NLT because the purpose of sex is to produce children, so any sexual activity that does not produce children is immoral. Ever wonder why the Catholic Church is against condoms, masturbation, and homosexuality? Now, you know.
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[–]PrawnWonton 19 points20 points21 points ago
[–]one_wicked_element 20 points21 points22 points ago
[–]imrickjamesbyach 22 points23 points24 points ago
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[–]ZeroNihilist 1 point2 points3 points ago
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[–]AtheismBot 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]Igtheo 12 points13 points14 points ago
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[–]Igtheo 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]the_codfather 7 points8 points9 points ago
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[–]neduil 5 points6 points7 points ago
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[–]neduil 1 point2 points3 points ago*
[–]Nikoras -1 points0 points1 point ago
[–]neduil 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]ForWhatReason 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]AtheistEvey 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]IAmNotAPerson6 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]SaultSpartan 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]AtheistEvey 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]xtfr 5 points6 points7 points ago
[–]I_I_I_I_am_the_owl 3 points4 points5 points ago
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[–]Angry_Grammarian 2 points3 points4 points ago
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