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all 123 comments

[–]digitaljeff51 59 points60 points ago

sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

[–]bl00dshooter 33 points34 points ago

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NO ONE CAN DISPROVE BATMAN!!!!!!!

[–]Give_it_a_Read 19 points20 points ago

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ITZ IN A BOOK! IT HAS TO BE TRUE

[–]Mayniak0 14 points15 points ago

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THERE ARE EVEN MOVIES!!! ALL PRAISE OUR BAT-LIKE SAVIOR!!!

[–]dongimin2 4 points5 points ago

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GOD HAS NO MOVIE, THEREFORE HE IS 50% LESS TRUE THAN BATMAN!

[–]kwiztas 0 points1 point ago

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Passion of the christ; sadly. I hate how spell check wants to capitalize christ.

[–]dongimin2 0 points1 point ago

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edit: GOD HAS NO AT LEAST DECENT MOVIE

[–]godlessatheist 28 points29 points ago

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HaHa those assholes are going to burn in hell for not believing in Batman!

[–]ZalRed 11 points12 points ago

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You mean bat-hell

[–]Guck_Mal 9 points10 points ago

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you mean Arkham Asylum

[–]SoapBoxOne 29 points30 points ago

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HAHA! "I'm pretty sure the trademark of the loser in a fight is getting killed..." They were pretty shaken up by that one.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points ago

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Their own religion hinges entirely on the fact that Jesus DID lose.... The whole point of Christianity is that he SACRIFICED himself. You can't win a fight by sacrificing yourself.

[–]SoapBoxOne 19 points20 points ago

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Although I would give jesus points for complex strategy. Sacrificing yourself to yourself to appease yourself and save everyone else is not an easy concept to come up with.

[–]ZalRed 10 points11 points ago

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But no. He had to die so that himself would accept his sacrifice to himself so that he could change his own rules that he himself set, and so that we could thank him eternally for doing essentially something that means nothing and that we didn't ever ask him- breath- to do. Ok, yeah, Batman is way cooler.

[–]proddy 4 points5 points ago

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We must go deeper.

[–]aplusbi 2 points3 points ago

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It's kind of like when Bobby Fischer sacrificed his Queen.

[–]TracyMorganFreeman 10 points11 points ago

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Is it just me or is the rationale for suicide bombers suddenly more familiar?

[–]MonkeySaiyan 9 points10 points ago

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Unless you're Goku.

[–]sfwlz 5 points6 points ago

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Someone should'a told Chaiozu.

[–]DrNoPants 1 point2 points ago

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[–]OsoBlanco 26 points27 points ago

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And you're neglecting the fact that Bruce Wayne is FICTIONAL

Enrique is not very bright is he?

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points ago

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If I were that guy I would have made the point that Jesus had the shit kicked out of him by normal Roman soldiers, and I think Batman can beat up a Roman soldier, so logically Batman would be able to beat up Jesus.

[–]Crazyblue 7 points8 points ago

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Batman obviously beats Jesus in any form of martial combat. It really is no contest.

[–]mikhel 0 points1 point ago

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Including drunken boxing. And Jesus would be sober, since excessive drinking is a sin.

(is it?)

[–]I_Need_A_Beard 1 point2 points ago

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Yeah but Jesus died to save us from sin. If we don't sin, he wasted his time. So drink excessively, excessively!!!

[–]SpaceCowboy57 0 points1 point ago

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there is a quote from the bible (not sure where) "even jesus christ himself could not stand after seven cups of grain" so in otherwords he's a lightweight and would have trouble with drunken boxing.

[–]mikhel 0 points1 point ago

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Seven cups? Really? Really?

[–]Terraforce 13 points14 points ago

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Wait Jesus was real?

[–]Jswizzy84 5 points6 points ago

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Wait people think you have to deny a historical Jesus to not believe in a mythical Jesus. I don't believe that Alexander the Great was born of virgin but that doesn't mean that I don't think that an actual person named Alexander existed.

[–]inarsla 7 points8 points ago

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http://www.nazarethmyth.info/Fitzgerald2010HM.pdf The basic traits assigned to the jesus figure is even in conflict and most likely did not exist

[–]Jswizzy84 4 points5 points ago*

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I defer to Bart Erhman and Dale Martin when it comes to the Historical Jesus. I would say that the claims came latter when followers of Jesus were arguing with followers of other cults, like the followers of Apollonius of Tyana, about who's prophet was greater. It's easier to make stuff up when nothing is writen down and your using oral tradition to spread your cult around. Anyways I think you and Fitzgerald are missing the point. Your not going to find much evidence outside of Christian sources for Jesus because he wasn't a big deal. The biggest event that he supposedly did that could maybe be considered historical was in the temple attacking the money changers but even that event is suspect. No one cared about him because he was just another crazy person running around preaching the overthrow of Rome. His followers were mostly illiterate only about 10% of the ancient world could read and even less could write. On top of that why would Jesus's followers need to write anything down? would it be for posterity? To them the world was going to end at any moment they were living in the last days. We know that Paul and Mark(unknown) draw from earlier traditions and sayings some of which do not fit their agendas. We also know that Jews though that the idea of a suffering messiah was unheard of. You can search the entire old testament and you will never find a verse about the messiah that refers to him suffering or not coming in triumph. So why would Jews invent a savior that failed to live up to their expectations of what a messiah would be like? Unless the Messiah they believed in truly did disappoint like Jesus who was executed for claiming to be a king? Look at Wacko Texas their are still people who believe that David Koresh is going to return. I saw a interview with a woman who lost her Husband and kids in wacko and yet she still believed everything Koresh had taught her. My source

[–]Zazabean 2 points3 points ago

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Actually, historically, there is a lot of stuff pointing out the blatant existence of Alexander the Great, and to my knowledge, the only proof of Jesus's existence is the bible...so yea...

[–]SpaceCowboy57 0 points1 point ago

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to add to what others are saying, there is just as much speculative outside proof of jesus as there is of shakespeare. just food for thought.

[–]kimprobable 0 points1 point ago

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There's a bit more evidence for the existence of William Shakespeare. A baptismal record, marriage license, baptismal records for his children, tax records, legal proceedings, a will, and a body, among others.

There are some people who argue about the authorship of works attributed to him, but the man did exist.

[–]SpaceCowboy57 0 points1 point ago

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my point exactly.

Note, last i checked there was no confirmed baptismal record for william shakespeare.

[–]Jswizzy84 -2 points-1 points ago

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Nope. We have other writings that refer to Jesus outside the bible. so yea.. Ever heard of the Gospel of Thomas?

[–]smischmal 3 points4 points ago

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Another gospel? Okay, aside from the bible and other apocryphal texts that didn't make the final cut then.

[–]Jswizzy84 0 points1 point ago

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Annals, in book 15, chapter 44, written ca. 116 A.D -Tacitus

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.

[–]smischmal 4 points5 points ago

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Do you believe Socrates was real?

I don't know, but my gut says maybe.

Though one up that Socrates has over Jesus is that his students actually wrote about him, whereas the earliest Christian writings don't appear until several decades after his death and by a guy who never knew Jesus personally. Another point is that the Socrates story is a lot less fantastic. Just a bit easier to swallow, y'know?

So yeah, I'd say that his existence, while not a certainty (everything gets kind of fuzzy when you go that far back), it seems a mite bit more likely than the existence of Jesus.

written ca. 116 A.D -Tacitus

Ah, right, I forgot about that. But how reliable is that really when it's the first really historical, rather than legendary, source even referencing christians, and it appears after, what, about fifty or sixty years of the christian movement gaining cultural momentum? Isn't it possible, nay, even likely, that the origin story of christianity was taken from the christians themselves?

EDIT: Sorry I had to merge the responses, but you deleted the other one right before I could respond and I'd already typed it up.

[–]Jswizzy84 -2 points-1 points ago

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But you still have to explain the origins of Christians and how different authors and sources come up with the same quotes, stories, and facts. Take for instance that all the Gospels agree that John the Baptist baptized Jesus. Now what purpose does that serve to any of the writers if they are trying to claim that Jesus is a messianic figure? It infers that John the Baptist is greater than Jesus. So why would that end up in any of the Gospels if say for instance Mark the earliest for them was the original source of the story of Christ. It is contradictory to his theology. Paul also predates any of the gospels and yet he refers to some things about Jesus in an offhand manner as we already should be aware of them. Ultimately you have to say that the story of Jesus came from somewhere but you can't say Paul or Mark made it up because all the evidence points to the story existing prior to both.

[–]zxvf 2 points3 points ago

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There's obviously plenty of things written about Jesus besides the gospels. But nothing contemporary with Jesus. Note that Tacitus is writing in the second century about what Christians were up to in the first century during the rule of Nero (54 to 68), with an explanation of the term Christian as the supposed independent evidence of a historical Jesus. This is better evidence of first century Christians, but that's hardly disputed.

[–]Jswizzy84 -1 points0 points ago*

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And we have contemporary writings for everything single figure we believe to be real in ancient history? Most of the writings we have of historical figures are posthumous. Not having contemporary writing for someone in the ancient world is not a proof that they didn't exist. Your claim is no more than a non sequitur.

Do you really think that poor disenfranchised Jewish revolutionaries would be able to write who followed Jesus, an obscure disciple of John the Baptist by most accounts. If I'm not mistaken the amount of people able to read in the ancient world would of been something something like 10% at best and the amount that could write would of been far less. Out of those who could write how many of them would of been capable of writing a book? Ever read up on Josephus? There is a reason why he was so successful at infiltrating the ranks of the Roman elite. Someone who could write a book in the ancient world was a very valuable assets. You have to come up with an alternate explanation for the rise of the Nazerians and Pauline Christianity if you want to say that Jesus didn't exist. What explanation do you have that it is all an elaborate conspiracy? I think occam's razor rules that one out. Also who is going to care enough about a Jewish criminal who at most only attacked money changers in the temple if that account is even reliable? I doubt any contemporary Roman sources had any reason to write about Jesus during his lifetime. He was a very obscure figure and only seemed to come to the attention of the Romans at the very end of his career were they executed him for claiming to be a king without authorization from the Roman senate? So I've provided you with evidence and you've moved the goal post not understanding how historians evaluate ancient historical claims and text, what evidence do you have to the contrary? Do you want me to prove to you that I'm not just a brain a Jar? Your not going to be able to say anything with absolute certainty about Ancient History it's not the same as modern history and we do not use the same methods. At most we can only say what probably happened and as it turns out using the historical critical method we can say that Jesus probably existed. There is far more evidence that he did exist than evidence for him not existing and we have more writings about him than we do for other ancient figures like Socrates.

We know that Paul, the author of Mark and the Author of the Coptic book of Thomas are all drawing upon an older source for their Jesus material, so we know that the Jesus tradition predates them and non of them simply invented Jesus ex nihlo. How do you explain this tradition? Jesus was a suffering messiah an idea that is unheard of in Jewish lore about the coming savior. What Jew would believe that a savior would come in defeat and not triumph? All the Messianic prophecies in the Tanak have the coming savior arriving in triumph and defeating the enemies of God. None of them say that the Messiah will be crucified and humiliated.

[–]zxvf 1 point2 points ago

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I think you spent some time writing this reply so I'll make a reasonable effort to answer your questions. But I'm guessing you're a bit more committed in this issue than I am. So please don't be disappointed if I won't get into a long point-by-point argument. And please note that I've actually said nothing about Jesus so far.

And we have contemporary writings for everything single figure we believe to be real in ancient history?

I'm quite certain we do not. Non-contemporary sources can do just fine, and then there are artifacts of course.

Most of the writings we have of historical figures are posthumous.

That sounds very reasonable.

Not having contemporary writing for someone in the ancient world is not a proof that they didn't exist.

I agree.

Your claim is no more than a non sequitur.

There's no non sequitur without a conclusion. I was just pointing out a couple of obvious things about what you cited from Tacitus.

Do you really think that poor disenfranchised Jewish revolutionaries would be able to write who followed Jesus, an obscure disciple of John the Baptist by most accounts. If I'm not mistaken the amount of people able to read in the ancient world would of been something something like 10% at best and the amount that could write would of been far less. Out of those who could write how many of them would of been capable of writing a book?

I think it's safe to say that even the ancient Christians have proven capable of putting a thing or two down in writing.

Ever read up on Josephus?

I think I've had a quick glance on Wikipedia when he was mentioned in a similar discussion before. So, no, I can't say I've read up on him.

There is a reason why he was so successful at infiltrating the ranks of the Roman elite. Someone who could write a book in the ancient world was a very valuable assets.

If you say so.

You have to come up with an alternate explanation for the rise of the Nazerians and Pauline Christianity if you want to say that Jesus didn't exist.

I'm not sure I want to say that. Also, I'd have to read up on the Nazerians and Pauline Christianity before I could explain them in any way at all.

What explanation do you have that it is all an elaborate conspiracy?

Now you're giving me an either-or fallacy. I've claimed no conspiracy.

I think occam's razor rules that one out.

But a conspiracy is not the only alternative to a historical Jesus.

Also who is going to care enough about a Jewish criminal who at most only attacked money changers in the temple if that account is even reliable? I doubt any contemporary Roman sources had any reason to write about Jesus during his lifetime.

I'm not sure I follow. Are you asking "If we disregard all the Gospel stories about Jesus, what reason was there to write about him"?

He was a very obscure figure and only seemed to come to the attention of the Romans at the very end of his career were they executed him for claiming to be a king without authorization from the Roman senate?

At least he supposedly was conspicuous enough to be the victim of an elaborate conspiracy.

So I've provided you with evidence and you've moved the goal post not understanding how historians evaluate ancient historical claims and text, what evidence do you have to the contrary?

I'm not offering any evidence. I'm offering my opinion on evidence on the historical Jesus. My opinion that you're replying to is that the actual Christians themselves that Nero persecuted and that Tacitus writes about are way better evidence than that single line where Tacitus mentions Christus.

Do you want me to prove to you that I'm not just a brain a Jar?

If it's not a terrible inconvenience for you to do so...

Your not going to be able to say anything with absolute certainty about Ancient History it's not the same as modern history and we do not use the same methods. At most we can only say what probably happened and as it turns out using the historical critical method we can say that Jesus probably existed. There is far more evidence that he did exist than evidence for him not existing and we have more writings about him than we do for other ancient figures like Socrates.

It's curious that you should pick Socrates as an example. Are you familiar with the Socratic Problem? Now I've only taken an introductory History of Ideas course, but it was explicitly stated that as we only know Socrates through the writings of others he might very well be entirely fictional, but it's really only the fictional Socrates that matters anyway, as it's the only Socrates we know.

To me, it's the same with Jesus. It's the Jesus of the Gospels that matter. What difference does it make if the stories were first told about an actual person or not?

We know that Paul, the author of Mark and the Author of the Coptic book of Thomas are all drawing upon an older source for their Jesus material, so we know that the Jesus tradition predates them and non of them simply invented Jesus ex nihlo. How do you explain this tradition?

I don't think I have to explain them at all. I'm sure an historical Jesus is not the only possible explanation though.

Jesus was a suffering messiah an idea that is unheard of in Jewish lore about the coming savior. What Jew would believe that a savior would come in defeat and not triumph? All the Messianic prophecies in the Tanak have the coming savior arriving in triumph and defeating the enemies of God. None of them say that the Messiah will be crucified and humiliated.

Myths and stories change and merge all the time. And sometimes they even are created out of thin air.

[–]Jswizzy84 0 points1 point ago

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That's a very well though out response but you really need to read Josephus to understand the historicity of Jesus. I really don't mean to imply that we have absolute proof that Jesus exists but rather it is the most likely and plausible explanation. The other alternatives as I know them are the Jesus Myth theory which has always come up short and the conspiracy theories that you find in bunk like Zeitgeist.
Let me just quote you some historians and if you care to look them up and see how credible they and then decide that you think that my belief in a historical Jesus is unfounded than I can respect that but I see the Historicity of Jesus as the best possible explanation that we currently have. I would never claim that it is the only explanation but only that the other theories are not as credible.

For Acts, the confirmation of historicity is overwhelming. Yet Acts is, in simple terms and judged externally, no less of a propaganda narrative than the Gospels, liable to similar distortions. But any attempt to reject its basic historicity, even in matters of detail, must now appear absurd. Roman historians have long taken it for granted…. The agnostic type of form-criticism would be much more credible if the compilation of the Gospels were much later in time…. Herodotus enables us to test the tempo of myth-making, [showing that] even two generations are too short a span to allow the mythical tendency to prevail over the hard historic core. — Roman Society and Roman Law in the New Testament. Oxford: Clarendon Press (1963), pp. 189-190.

…if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus’ existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned… To sum up, modern critical methods fail to support the Christ myth theory. It has "again and again been answered and annihilated by first rank scholars." In recent years, "no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus" or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary. -Grant, Michael (1977), Jesus: An Historian’s Review, pp. 199–200 For a summary of the mainstream position, see Eddy, Paul R. and Boyd, Gregory A. The Jesus Legend: A Case for the Historical Reliability of the Synoptic Jesus Tradition. Baker Academic, 2007, pp. 24–27. Also see Dickson, March 21, 2008.

What sources do we have for Jesus? Well, we have multiple sources in the Gospels of the New Testament. That part is good. But they are not written by eyewitnesses who were contemporary with the events they narrate. They were written thirty-five to sixty-five years after Jesus’ death by people who did not know him, did not see anything he did or hear anything that he taught, people who spoke a different language from his and lived in a different country from him. The accounts they produced are not disinterested; they are narratives produced by Christians who actually believed in Jesus, and therefore were not immune from slanting the stories in light of their biases. They are not completely free of collaboration, since Mark was used as a source for Matthew and Luke. And rather than being fully consistent with one another, they are widely inconsistent, with discrepancies filling their pages, both contradictions in details and divergent large-scale understandings of who Jesus was. How can sources like this be used to reconstruct the life of the historical Jesus? It’s not easy, but there are ways. The first step is to get a better handle on how the Gospel writers got their stories. If they were living three to six decades after the events they narrate, what were their sources of information? The short answer is that the Gospel writers received most of their information from the oral tradition, stories that had been in circulation about Jesus by word of mouth from the time he died until the time the Gospel writers wrote them down. To figure out how sources of this kind—contradictory accounts written decades later based on oral testimony—can be used by historians to establish what really happened with some degree of probability, we have to learn more about the oral traditions about Jesus. Ehrman, Bart D. (2009-02-20). Jesus, Interrupted: Revealing the Hidden Contradictions in the Bible (And Why We Don't Know About Them) (p. 144). HarperCollins e-books. Kindle Edition.

Ehrman, Bart D. (2009-02-20). Jesus, Interrupted: Revealing the Hidden Contradictions in the Bible (And Why We Don't Know About Them) (pp. 143-144). HarperCollins e-books. Kindle Edition.

[–]zxvf 0 points1 point ago

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I think you spent some time writing this reply so I'll make a reasonable effort to answer your questions. But I'm guessing you're a bit more committed in this issue than I am. So please don't be disappointed if I won't get into a long point-by-point argument. And please note that I've actually said nothing about Jesus so far.

And we have contemporary writings for everything single figure we believe to be real in ancient history?

I'm quite certain we do not. Non-contemporary sources can do just fine, and then there are artifacts of course.

Most of the writings we have of historical figures are posthumous.

That sounds very reasonable.

Not having contemporary writing for someone in the ancient world is not a proof that they didn't exist.

I agree.

Your claim is no more than a non sequitur.

There's no non sequitur without a conclusion. I was just pointing out a couple of obvious things about what you cited from Tacitus.

Do you really think that poor disenfranchised Jewish revolutionaries would be able to write who followed Jesus, an obscure disciple of John the Baptist by most accounts. If I'm not mistaken the amount of people able to read in the ancient world would of been something something like 10% at best and the amount that could write would of been far less. Out of those who could write how many of them would of been capable of writing a book?

I think it's safe to say that even the ancient Christians have proven capable of putting a thing or two down in writing.

Ever read up on Josephus?

I think I've had a quick glance on Wikipedia when he was mentioned in a similar discussion before. So, no, I can't say I've read up on him.

There is a reason why he was so successful at infiltrating the ranks of the Roman elite. Someone who could write a book in the ancient world was a very valuable assets.

If you say so.

You have to come up with an alternate explanation for the rise of the Nazerians and Pauline Christianity if you want to say that Jesus didn't exist.

I'm not sure I want to say that. Also, I'd have to read up on the Nazerians and Pauline Christianity before I could explain them in any way at all.

What explanation do you have that it is all an elaborate conspiracy?

Now you're giving me an either-or fallacy. I've claimed no conspiracy.

I think occam's razor rules that one out.

But a conspiracy is not the only alternative to a historical Jesus.

Also who is going to care enough about a Jewish criminal who at most only attacked money changers in the temple if that account is even reliable? I doubt any contemporary Roman sources had any reason to write about Jesus during his lifetime.

I'm not sure I follow. Are you asking "If we disregard all the Gospel stories about Jesus, what reason was there to write about him"?

He was a very obscure figure and only seemed to come to the attention of the Romans at the very end of his career were they executed him for claiming to be a king without authorization from the Roman senate?

At least he supposedly was conspicuous enough to be the victim of an elaborate conspiracy.

So I've provided you with evidence and you've moved the goal post not understanding how historians evaluate ancient historical claims and text, what evidence do you have to the contrary?

I'm not offering any evidence. I'm offering my opinion on evidence on the historical Jesus. My opinion that you're replying to is that the actual Christians themselves that Nero persecuted and that Tacitus writes about are way better evidence than that single line where Tacitus mentions Christus.

Do you want me to prove to you that I'm not just a brain a Jar?

If it's not a terrible inconvenience for you to do so...

Your not going to be able to say anything with absolute certainty about Ancient History it's not the same as modern history and we do not use the same methods. At most we can only say what probably happened and as it turns out using the historical critical method we can say that Jesus probably existed. There is far more evidence that he did exist than evidence for him not existing and we have more writings about him than we do for other ancient figures like Socrates.

It's curious that you should pick Socrates as an example. Are you familiar with the Socratic Problem? Now I've only taken an introductory History of Ideas course, but it was explicitly stated that as we only know Socrates through the writings of others he might very well be entirely fictional, but it's really only the fictional Socrates that matters anyway, as it's the only Socrates we know.

To me, it's the same with Jesus. It's the Jesus of the Gospels that matter. What difference does it make if the stories were first told about an actual person or not?

We know that Paul, the author of Mark and the Author of the Coptic book of Thomas are all drawing upon an older source for their Jesus material, so we know that the Jesus tradition predates them and non of them simply invented Jesus ex nihlo. How do you explain this tradition?

I don't think I have to explain them at all. I'm sure an historical Jesus is not the only possible explanation though.

Jesus was a suffering messiah an idea that is unheard of in Jewish lore about the coming savior. What Jew would believe that a savior would come in defeat and not triumph? All the Messianic prophecies in the Tanak have the coming savior arriving in triumph and defeating the enemies of God. None of them say that the Messiah will be crucified and humiliated.

Myths and stories change and merge all the time. And sometimes they even are created out of thin air.

[–]zxvf 0 points1 point ago

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I think you spent some time writing this reply so I'll make a reasonable effort to answer your questions. But I'm guessing you're a bit more committed in this issue than I am. So please don't be disappointed if I won't get into a long point-by-point argument. And please note that I've actually said nothing about Jesus so far.

And we have contemporary writings for everything single figure we believe to be real in ancient history?

I'm quite certain we do not. Non-contemporary sources can do just fine, and then there are artifacts of course.

Most of the writings we have of historical figures are posthumous.

That sounds very reasonable.

Not having contemporary writing for someone in the ancient world is not a proof that they didn't exist.

I agree.

Your claim is no more than a non sequitur.

There's no non sequitur without a conclusion. I was just pointing out a couple of obvious things about what you cited from Tacitus.

Do you really think that poor disenfranchised Jewish revolutionaries would be able to write who followed Jesus, an obscure disciple of John the Baptist by most accounts. If I'm not mistaken the amount of people able to read in the ancient world would of been something something like 10% at best and the amount that could write would of been far less. Out of those who could write how many of them would of been capable of writing a book?

I think it's safe to say that even the ancient Christians have proven capable of putting a thing or two down in writing.

Ever read up on Josephus?

I think I've had a quick glance on Wikipedia when he was mentioned in a similar discussion before. So, no, I can't say I've read up on him.

There is a reason why he was so successful at infiltrating the ranks of the Roman elite. Someone who could write a book in the ancient world was a very valuable assets.

If you say so.

You have to come up with an alternate explanation for the rise of the Nazerians and Pauline Christianity if you want to say that Jesus didn't exist.

I'm not sure I want to say that. Also, I'd have to read up on the Nazerians and Pauline Christianity before I could explain them in any way at all.

What explanation do you have that it is all an elaborate conspiracy?

Now you're giving me an either-or fallacy. I've claimed no conspiracy.

I think occam's razor rules that one out.

But a conspiracy is not the only alternative to a historical Jesus.

Also who is going to care enough about a Jewish criminal who at most only attacked money changers in the temple if that account is even reliable? I doubt any contemporary Roman sources had any reason to write about Jesus during his lifetime.

I'm not sure I follow. Are you asking "If we disregard all the Gospel stories about Jesus, what reason was there to write about him"?

He was a very obscure figure and only seemed to come to the attention of the Romans at the very end of his career were they executed him for claiming to be a king without authorization from the Roman senate?

At least he supposedly was conspicuous enough to be the victim of an elaborate conspiracy.

So I've provided you with evidence and you've moved the goal post not understanding how historians evaluate ancient historical claims and text, what evidence do you have to the contrary?

I'm not offering any evidence. I'm offering my opinion on evidence on the historical Jesus. My opinion that you're replying to is that the actual Christians themselves that Nero persecuted and that Tacitus writes about are way better evidence than that single line where Tacitus mentions Christus.

Do you want me to prove to you that I'm not just a brain a Jar?

If it's not a terrible inconvenience for you to do so...

Your not going to be able to say anything with absolute certainty about Ancient History it's not the same as modern history and we do not use the same methods. At most we can only say what probably happened and as it turns out using the historical critical method we can say that Jesus probably existed. There is far more evidence that he did exist than evidence for him not existing and we have more writings about him than we do for other ancient figures like Socrates.

It's curious that you should pick Socrates as an example. Are you familiar with the Socratic Problem? Now I've only taken an introductory History of Ideas course, but it was explicitly stated that as we only know Socrates through the writings of others he might very well be entirely fictional, but it's really only the fictional Socrates that matters anyway, as it's the only Socrates we know.

To me, it's the same with Jesus. It's the Jesus of the Gospels that matter. What difference does it make if the stories were first told about an actual person or not?

We know that Paul, the author of Mark and the Author of the Coptic book of Thomas are all drawing upon an older source for their Jesus material, so we know that the Jesus tradition predates them and non of them simply invented Jesus ex nihlo. How do you explain this tradition?

I don't think I have to explain them at all. I'm sure an historical Jesus is not the only possible explanation though.

Jesus was a suffering messiah an idea that is unheard of in Jewish lore about the coming savior. What Jew would believe that a savior would come in defeat and not triumph? All the Messianic prophecies in the Tanak have the coming savior arriving in triumph and defeating the enemies of God. None of them say that the Messiah will be crucified and humiliated.

Myths and stories change and merge all the time. And sometimes they even are created out of thin air.

[–]zxvf 0 points1 point ago

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I think you spent some time writing this reply so I'll make a reasonable effort to answer your questions. But I'm guessing you're a bit more committed in this issue than I am. So please don't be disappointed if I won't get into a long point-by-point argument. And please note that I've actually said nothing about Jesus so far.

And we have contemporary writings for everything single figure we believe to be real in ancient history?

I'm quite certain we do not. Non-contemporary sources can do just fine, and then there are artifacts of course.

Most of the writings we have of historical figures are posthumous.

That sounds very reasonable.

Not having contemporary writing for someone in the ancient world is not a proof that they didn't exist.

I agree.

Your claim is no more than a non sequitur.

There's no non sequitur without a conclusion. I was just pointing out a couple of obvious things about what you cited from Tacitus.

Do you really think that poor disenfranchised Jewish revolutionaries would be able to write who followed Jesus, an obscure disciple of John the Baptist by most accounts. If I'm not mistaken the amount of people able to read in the ancient world would of been something something like 10% at best and the amount that could write would of been far less. Out of those who could write how many of them would of been capable of writing a book?

I think it's safe to say that even the ancient Christians have proven capable of putting a thing or two down in writing.

Ever read up on Josephus?

I think I've had a quick glance on Wikipedia when he was mentioned in a similar discussion before. So, no, I can't say I've read up on him.

There is a reason why he was so successful at infiltrating the ranks of the Roman elite. Someone who could write a book in the ancient world was a very valuable assets.

If you say so.

You have to come up with an alternate explanation for the rise of the Nazerians and Pauline Christianity if you want to say that Jesus didn't exist.

I'm not sure I want to say that. Also, I'd have to read up on the Nazerians and Pauline Christianity before I could explain them in any way at all.

What explanation do you have that it is all an elaborate conspiracy?

Now you're giving me an either-or fallacy. I've claimed no conspiracy.

I think occam's razor rules that one out.

But a conspiracy is not the only alternative to a historical Jesus.

Also who is going to care enough about a Jewish criminal who at most only attacked money changers in the temple if that account is even reliable? I doubt any contemporary Roman sources had any reason to write about Jesus during his lifetime.

I'm not sure I follow. Are you asking "If we disregard all the Gospel stories about Jesus, what reason was there to write about him"?

He was a very obscure figure and only seemed to come to the attention of the Romans at the very end of his career were they executed him for claiming to be a king without authorization from the Roman senate?

At least he supposedly was conspicuous enough to be the victim of an elaborate conspiracy.

So I've provided you with evidence and you've moved the goal post not understanding how historians evaluate ancient historical claims and text, what evidence do you have to the contrary?

I'm not offering any evidence. I'm offering my opinion on evidence on the historical Jesus. My opinion that you're replying to is that the actual Christians themselves that Nero persecuted and that Tacitus writes about are way better evidence than that single line where Tacitus mentions Christus.

Do you want me to prove to you that I'm not just a brain a Jar?

If it's not a terrible inconvenience for you to do so...

Your not going to be able to say anything with absolute certainty about Ancient History it's not the same as modern history and we do not use the same methods. At most we can only say what probably happened and as it turns out using the historical critical method we can say that Jesus probably existed. There is far more evidence that he did exist than evidence for him not existing and we have more writings about him than we do for other ancient figures like Socrates.

It's curious that you should pick Socrates as an example. Are you familiar with the Socratic Problem? Now I've only taken an introductory History of Ideas course, but it was explicitly stated that as we only know Socrates through the writings of others he might very well be entirely fictional, but it's really only the fictional Socrates that matters anyway, as it's the only Socrates we know.

To me, it's the same with Jesus. It's the Jesus of the Gospels that matter. What difference does it make if the stories were first told about an actual person or not?

We know that Paul, the author of Mark and the Author of the Coptic book of Thomas are all drawing upon an older source for their Jesus material, so we know that the Jesus tradition predates them and non of them simply invented Jesus ex nihlo. How do you explain this tradition?

I don't think I have to explain them at all. I'm sure an historical Jesus is not the only possible explanation though.

Jesus was a suffering messiah an idea that is unheard of in Jewish lore about the coming savior. What Jew would believe that a savior would come in defeat and not triumph? All the Messianic prophecies in the Tanak have the coming savior arriving in triumph and defeating the enemies of God. None of them say that the Messiah will be crucified and humiliated.

Myths and stories change and merge all the time. And sometimes they even are created out of thin air.

[–]WouldHAVE-NotWouldOF 0 points1 point ago

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would of been

Nope.

[–]Impressario 1 point2 points ago

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This may be counter to your position, but you might find it interesting nonetheless if you haven't seen it yet:

David Fitzgerald Skepticon 3 "Examining the Existence of a Historical Jesus"

[–]Jswizzy84 1 point2 points ago

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I've seen it. It is a good watch I've also watched Prices lecture he did at skepticon the year before I think. While I think these questions should be asked I still think that the evidence and scholarship is in favor of a historical Jesus. Believe me I would love to say that Jesus was myth but I haven't seen any hard evidence or any convincing claims. Disproving the mythical claims about Jesus does very little to disprove the historical Jesus. I don't believe half the things written about Jesus but I do think their is enough evidence to say in all probability that a disciple of John the baptist who claimed to a savior or prophet taught an apocalyptic message and was Nazareth and suffered execution from the Romans. Saying Jesus wasn't from Bethlehem or something along those lines doesn't debunk the historic Jesus because we know Luke and Matthew created the Birth Narrative and it has little to do with the actual Historic Jesus.

[–]deusnefum 0 points1 point ago

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There really is no support for even a historical Jesus. There's lots of people (with historical evidence) that are similar and even more legends that are dead on, but again, no concrete support for historical Jesus.

[–]deusnefum 0 points1 point ago

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There really is no support for even a historical Jesus. There's lots of people (with historical evidence) that are similar and even more legends that are dead on, but again, no concrete support for historical Jesus.

[–]Jswizzy84 0 points1 point ago

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I don't know what you consider no support but I would consider writings and letters that mention Jesus to be support for him and the existence of cults that arose within the first century? We have texts from the 1st and 2nd century that write about a Jewish cult that worship a man named Yeshua, the Christos, or Jesus depend on who you look at. We even know of writings that rail against the followers of Christ. You still have to explain were Paul and Mark and the gospel of Thomas got their material and sayings from. Sure their is no concrete evidence for anything that happened in ancient history but using strong criticism and historical methods the scholarly consensus is that Jesus was a historical figure. I haven't seen any hard concrete evidence by Fredrick or Price that would lead me to believe that the Christ story is a mythical invention that is one hundred percent allegory. There is plenty of support for a pre-existing tradition prior to Paul, Mark and the Coptic gospel of Thomas that would lead us to believe that a source such as Q or some kind of oral tradition was used as a source for these writings.

[–]deusnefum 0 points1 point ago

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Afaik, from what I've read. There were zero contemporary writers about Jesus. The closest one was something like 60 years after he supposedly died and that account turned out to be fraudulent.

I'm paraphrasing badly and making a poor case because I can't find the essay I read before, but if you really care I'll spend some time looking for it when I get off work. Cheers.

[–]Jswizzy84 0 points1 point ago

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We have plenty of posthum accounts from various sources within the 1st and 2nd century. I wouldn't expect anyone to write about Jesus while he was alive. He was unimportant to the Romans and his followers were apocalyptic Jews so they wouldn't have been all that interested in writing if they were even literate which they probably weren't because the world was ending any day and God was going to establish his kingdom on Earth.

[–]deusnefum 0 points1 point ago

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You wouldn't expect anyone to write about a guy performing honest-to-god (pardon the idiom) miracles right after he did them? Not one person of the thousands that Jesus preached to didn't think immediately afterwards, "I should record this"? Jesus was influential enough to the basis for what would become the world's largest religion, but not a single contemporary of his thought to write something down about him?

[–]Jswizzy84 0 points1 point ago

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I don't believe Jesus did miracles. I think your confusing the Historical Jesus with the theological Jesus. Even Richard Dawkins contends that the historical Jesus likely existed.

It is even possible to mount a serious, though not widely supported, historical case that Jesus never lived at all, as has been done by, among others, Professor G. A. Wells of the University of London in a number of books, including Did Jesus Exist?. Although Jesus probably existed, reputable biblical scholars do not in general regard the New Testament (and obviously not the Old Testament) as a reliable record of what actually happened in history, and I shall not consider the Bible further as evidence for any kind of deity. Dawkins, Richard (2007-12-19). The God Delusion (pp. 122-123). Houghton Mifflin. Kindle Edition.

[–]ziper1221 6 points7 points ago

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Oh god, the artifacts

[–]JosephAM 2 points3 points ago

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They belong in a museum!

[–]Zazabean 6 points7 points ago

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"ACTUALLY BATMAN IS FICTIONAL"

oh he dun fucked up now.

[–]fishfingersman 4 points5 points ago

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I must say, I really really enjoyed this. Im also glad you could actually have a real conversation with such a strong Christian (Julie) and not face a big load of bigoted bullshit. On the other hand, Enrique is a fuckface

[–]Mayniak0 3 points4 points ago

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I don't think this was from the original poster. I recall seeing it here before. It was also put on imgur 2 months ago.

[–]Stargleam52[S] 4 points5 points ago

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Correct; I hadn't seen it on here before though.

[–]INGSOCtheGREAT 8 points9 points ago

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There is as much proof for batman as for Jesus. Books/stories/movies have been made about Him and His life. Well done.

[–]Jswizzy84 0 points1 point ago

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[–]INGSOCtheGREAT 2 points3 points ago

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I stand corrected.

[–]Schoenhole 2 points3 points ago

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One thing for sure, in a fight between Ronald vs Julie. Ronald would win.

[–]LordGodless 2 points3 points ago

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This is pretty epic.

[–]odintal 2 points3 points ago

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If followers of the FSM are Pastafarians and followers of Christ are Christians, are followers of Batman Waynarians?

[–]nightzirk 10 points11 points ago

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No, they're Batman.

[–]Mayniak0 4 points5 points ago

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I'm Batman

[–]mongerty 4 points5 points ago

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I'm not wearing hockey pads...

[–]KashmirKnitter 0 points1 point ago

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Batmaniacs?

[–]thatnerdykid 1 point2 points ago

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to quote "He does not use his power for that". well, i believe i heard a story where Jesus of Nazareth set a kid on fire for stepping on his sandal and scuffing it.

[–]siebharinn 1 point2 points ago

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That was clearly fiction, that's why god didn't put it in the bible.

[–]Mayniak0 1 point2 points ago

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I just tried this question out on omegle. Mostly disconnects or people just agreeing. Occasionally though someone would say Batman because he is real. Then there were the blasphemers talking about how Spider man or the Silver Surfer (once it was Michael Jackson ) would win.

[–]smischmal 0 points1 point ago

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Here's my results.

[–]holy_holy_holy 0 points1 point ago

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I personally think Spidey could take Batman, flame away

[–]datapirate42 1 point2 points ago

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[–]iAmericA45 1 point2 points ago

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Ronald got a lot of notifications that day.

[–]jtbeith 1 point2 points ago

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Actually Batman is FICTIONAL, unless you're a 2nd grader

Pot, meet Kettle.

[–]WearyMorlock 1 point2 points ago

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I love how christians can NEVER stay on topic. The only thing consistent during a conversation with them is a never-ending supply of ridiculous phrases.

[–]dandello 1 point2 points ago

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The level or irony in that conversation is almost painful.

[–]lestiforget 1 point2 points ago

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I like how he never replies "so's yours" to "he's fictional".

[–]D-VotedToOblivion 1 point2 points ago

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Every post that wasn't Ronald's was hard to read, many a face palms

[–]passivelyaggressive 0 points1 point ago

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All I see is TROLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL..

[–]proddy 0 points1 point ago

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Batman has so many comics, movies and even TV shows to prove his existance. What does Jesus have? One collection of four books, that can't even stick to the canon, a few movies, "the best" produced by a Jew hating psychopath and a mention in two other holy texts, one of which he was considered a liar and the other demoted from the "son of god" to "prophet".

I always imagined people arguing about Jesus/god/etc to nerds arguing about the EU vs OT vs NT in Star Wars.

[–]jacobmizer 0 points1 point ago

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Made me twitch when that idiot enrique said batman was FICTIONAL. Implying batman is less real than jesus.

[–]tee-one 0 points1 point ago

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This is by far my favorite religious trolling ever. I can't believe the poster kept going and going. I'm surprised he didn't mention that Jesus's miracles were just as fictitious as Batman's, but anyway, that was awesome.

[–]Max_Keeble 0 points1 point ago*

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Your good works can't save you, trying to be a "good" person will never save us. Thus, the righteousness of Jesus Christ since He is the only one qualified.

This Jesus guy kinda sounds like a jerk.

Not to mention, he doesn't even have a utility belt.

[–]Baexican 0 points1 point ago

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Ronald you are my new hero

[–]yogurt666 0 points1 point ago

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You sir, just made my day :)

[–]braniac 0 points1 point ago

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I like when Enrique says Jesus died for "absolutely nothing".

Well...actually he's right. If he existed and did die on a cross, he was probably still full of shit.

[–]Kind_Of_A_Dick 0 points1 point ago

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Extreme trolling: Facebook edition.

[–]thecajunone 0 points1 point ago

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YOU are my savior.

[–]InquisitorMuffin 0 points1 point ago

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haah she said batman was fictional lol!!!....and zombie jesus isnt?....sooo if people believe in something enough does it then become real?

[–]HimTiser 0 points1 point ago

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I need to punch something. A face will do

[–]koingnegsegg 0 points1 point ago

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My hero is Ronald

[–]smischmal 0 points1 point ago

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When Julie was talking about how Jesus humbled himself by slumming it up with us mere mortals, it totally reminded me of Batman Begins when Bruce quit his high falutin' rich guy life to hang with criminal sorts and poor people. Though he came out of it far more badass than Jesus ever did.

[–]Phaen 0 points1 point ago

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This is the only good facebook convo I've ever seen in this subreddit.

[–]Expurgate 0 points1 point ago

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Normally these facebook conversations leave me sad and hopeless, but this man's fighting the good fight.

[–]MelodicMadness 0 points1 point ago

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So most of this made me facepalm, but the one line that REALLY made me stop reading and go "wtf is wrong with these people" is this: "trying to be a good person will never save us." Really? So if we all decided to be good people and stop hurting each other, we still have to rely on some man with fictional powers to save us? No thanks, I think I'd like my own life in my hands.

[–]mikhel 0 points1 point ago

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Yo jesus, i'm real happy for ya, and imma let you finish, but Batman could TOTALLY kick your ass. TOTES.

[–]TheFlyingBastard 0 points1 point ago

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When this was posted last time, some people had a little discussion over the way this person handled the conversation. The conclusion was that this person did not fall for the bait-and-switch tactic of "But Batman is fictional."

[–]knocklessmonster 0 points1 point ago

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Let's start a church.

[–]DrNoPants 0 points1 point ago

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I think your friend is confusing Jeebus with Superman

[–]RadioHitandRun 0 points1 point ago

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Clash of the fictional heros

[–]Doilyn 0 points1 point ago

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The solution now is to start referring to Bruce Wayne and Batman as real people. Change Gotham to a real city, maybe LA or Chicago or something. Spice with a little enthusiasm and song, mix for a few hundred years, somebody will write a Gospel about him, and we have liftoff!

[–]holy_holy_holy 0 points1 point ago

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Did anyone else have a small fit when one of the Christians referred to Batman as a "Marvel comics hero" ? Or was that just me?

[–]luckycynic 0 points1 point ago

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Wasn't just you. The words 'Rookie Mistake' came instantly to mind

[–]Tattycakes 0 points1 point ago

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Why is the image so heavily pixellated? It's just a screenshot, there shouldn't be that much need for distortion, not like it's been resized from something much bigger or smaller. Just looks dodgy to me =( Still funny though.

[–]buhzie2 0 points1 point ago

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I wouldn't even know where to start with responding to all of the "he saved me" and "personal relationships with jesus" comments...

Makes my head spin.... Glad my facebook friends are not delusional.

[–]Melkster 0 points1 point ago

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That. Was. Brilliant.

[–]bfmGrack 0 points1 point ago

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There are more books proving Batman than Jesus.

[–]33rpm 0 points1 point ago

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amazing

[–]olem-- 0 points1 point ago

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As funny as this is, Ronald is partially wrong. Jesus is a hero in the the Qur'an. Not as Gods incaration but he still is an important prophet in the Qua'ran. Google it!

[–]brad_the_rad 0 points1 point ago

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jesus would win. 60%+ of body weight turned to wine.

[–]lawyerguy 0 points1 point ago

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Awesome. That was some fine trolling sir! Keep up the good work!

[–]chronicsyncope 0 points1 point ago

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batman is FICTIONAL, unless you're a 2nd grader.

At what grade does God become fictional?

[–]darkangelx -1 points0 points ago

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When life starts - conception, obviously pffft /s

[–]mechapunch 0 points1 point ago

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"Then Harley Quinn and Catwoman both ate of the tree of Poison Ivy. The eyes of both of them opened, and they realized they were naked"

and I was happy.