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This was shot down in r/pics. Obviously this community feels the same, the picture has been posted here numerous times. My only 9-11 takeaway. (i.imgur.com)
submitted 11 months ago by papasconqueso
[–]xbl_armory 121 points122 points123 points 11 months ago
How about we start by imagining a world without imperialists, fascists, and greed.
[–]Vesperidone 5 points6 points7 points 11 months ago
Because then you couldn't be all snarky and get karma for it.
[–]Death_Blinder 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
Thank you. I would like to add one thing: Anyone who thinks* 9/11 happened because of religion is either a child or completely unaware of how our neo-colonialist behavior has essentially served to dick-slap the rest of the world in the face with our phallus of litigious greed and corruption.
I wan't to say more but I'll leave it at that.
*Edit: 'things' to 'thinks'
[–]Nadernade 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Imagining a world without those things is impossible, because human nature always wants more(greed/imperialism). A world without religion is possible and would hopefully promote logical and rational thoughts. I've been reading 1984 and got to the part about the hierarchical system of the high, middle and low, where the middle wants to be high, the high to stay permanent and the low wants equality, until that low becomes the high or middle.
[–]MAC_TRUCK_HITS_BABY 15 points16 points17 points 11 months ago
Imagining a world without those things is impossible, because human nature always wants more(greed/imperialism).
And education and trained logic/reasoning ability will hinder this primal (which is debated btw) influence. So, assuming the perfect world fallacy (which is what we're all doing here), greed, imperialism, and fascism would cease to exist as well.
[–]Kalahan6 20 points21 points22 points 11 months ago
You almost say it yourself. A world without religion will still have imperialists, fascists and greed. Mankind will just find other excuses. 9/11 isn't the result of religion. It's the result of fanatics. People don't act stupid because they think religion tells them to. They do stupid things because they are stupid.
When will r/atheism learn you can't blame these extreme acts on religion? You can only blame them on human nature. A world without religion wouldn't be much better than the world your living in. The only thing that would perhaps change is the suppression of science because they conflict with current religious ideals, but for the most part, people will keep killing other people over some random difference they deem important enough.
[–]spastek 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
I almost agreed with you. However I think the point is there would be less imperialists, fascists, and greedy bastards. At the very least those people would have less people blinding following them based on fear of the after life or following them to reap rewards in the after-life. Hopefully people would stop doing things because their religion told they should and would critically think about how exactly their actions are going to affect everyone.
[–]ali_44 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
Religion doesn't kill people, people kill people! ಠ_ಠ
[–]dalore 4 points5 points6 points 11 months ago
So just because bad things will still happen we should ignore the bad things that religion cause because we can't stop all the bad things at once?
No, just because there are other problems, we shouldn't ignore the problems religion brings.
[–]Kalahan6 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
I'm saying religion isn't the problem. Human stupidity, fascism and greed is. They just manifest themselves in religion but they will keep occurring without religion. Mankind only needs to find an excuse to do horrible things for it's own personal gain.
[–]nytehauq 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
This is an incredible strawman. In reality, religion was not necessary for 9/11, though it did help. Getting rid of religion would get rid of all the other things that religion was absolutely necessary for, just not 9/11 per se. The entire concept of this thread is that religion was the cause of 9/11, which simply isn't true.
On the other hand, unreason is a major cause of many ills. Religion is just one form of unreason, it doesn't have to be the cause of every evil for all forms of unreason to be bad.
[–]PowerhouseTerp 6 points7 points8 points 11 months ago
This is too rational. Prepare for downvotes.
[–]beefsupreme123 2 points3 points4 points 11 months ago
I know I would rather see religion go first.
[–]RedRing86 -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 months ago
Seriously.
this is REALLY fucking Shitty. You people complain that others use 9/11 for their own agenda, and here you are doing the same.
You should really feel shameful, you're no better than the rednecks who bash ALL muslims for what happened.
[–]nailimixam 16 points17 points18 points 11 months ago
What do you mean, "you people"
[–]TheHungryLuma 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
What do you mean, "you people"?
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 11 months ago
Sir calm down
[–]PrivateSkittles 210 points211 points212 points 11 months ago
Would the world be a better place without religion? Possibly, it would most likely be a more educated place, or at least science would be more advanced.
However, to say that a world without religion would necessarily be a peaceful one is simply not true. Humans have killed, raped and subjugated each other for time immemorial. It has been for different reasons always, but humans have never just gotten along very well. If it was not Allah Vs. Yahweh that causes war, it would be race, or language, or hair color, or what city-state you were born in.
As we like to say all the time Hitler did not kill 10,000,000 people for religious reasons. He did it because he was a sadistic lunatic of the highest order who happened to gain control of a nation.
Even if the Dark Ages did not happen and we (somehow) exponentially increased world-wide learning, and we raced into the heavens and colonized other planets, other galaxies, there would still be horrible wars where millions would die, except instead of two planes hitting towers for a god someone would nuke a planet from orbit because they were dirty dirty fucking greenies down there, and we don't take kindly to greenies.
[–]Jepumy 31 points32 points33 points 11 months ago
Did this say a more peaceful one or one without 9/11?
I would think it would be more peaceful, maybe not by a massive amount, but by some.
[–]charon7 14 points15 points16 points 11 months ago
The only reason I see that would make it more peaceful is one less thing for people to disagree over, given the myriad of other points of contention I doubt it'd make that big a difference.
[–]Nadernade 2 points3 points4 points 11 months ago
It would start making people actually think about the wars/battles they fight, instead of blindly following a god and thinking it is his will that you do these terrible things. The excuse of god and religion would be gone and people would need to actually justify themselves.
[–]charon7 11 points12 points13 points 11 months ago
I think you put too much faith into peoples' reasoning and justifications. People are ready and willing to rationalize their decisions with or without religion. For instance slavery, supporters are in the minority today yet in the past the vast majority supported and rationalized it to not only be a necessity but a right.
[–]somethingrelevant 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
Yeah... or they'd stop saying "we're going to war because god wants us to" and start saying "we're going to war because those bloody muslims are trying to steal our freedom!"
Wait, they do that already.
[–]shawa666 9 points10 points11 points 11 months ago
Islam (those bloody muslims you talk about) is a religion too, you know?
[–]somethingrelevant 4 points5 points6 points 11 months ago
Good point. Feel free to replace it with "those bloody towelhead darkies."
[–]ptsaq 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
I think you are misplacing the importance of God, at least in the modern(last 200 years) world. Nationalism, political chaos and economic strife are a lot more dangerous to peace than religion. With a very few exceptions, people have not literally gone to war for God. That may have been an easy excuse, but they had other real goals. If God was not there, they would have simply went one further down the list. Like going from WMD to terrorists.
[–]Dobbsfollower 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
People justify themselves with pseudo-science all the time. Just look at all the non-religious "homosexuality is a choice" science. Religion may be a motivator, but so is anything else.
[–]omfgitsasalmon 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Actually, most wars are not really started by religion is you think about it clearly. They are started by selfish men that USED religion to JUSTIFY the war to gain more supporters. So yes, there may be less wars, but when you close one door, they'll just find another war. So give him a few years, and he will still be able to start a war using something else.
[–]PrancingPeach 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
You greatly overestimate the number of wars that happened purely 100% because of religion.
[–]ungoogleable 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
How big of a difference is enough? You can't say it won't make any difference, so we're just left quibbling over whether the costs exceed the benefits.
[–]pakiman47 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
so what do you think this picture is trying to say? to me it's clearly implying that without religion, 9/11 wouldn't have happened...
[–]yogurtshwartz 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
People who are atheists are generally more peaceful then religious people?
[–]BobsSecondHand 12 points13 points14 points 11 months ago
Maybe, all we know is that atheists generally are caught less for committing crimes.
[–]Tin_Foiled 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Please post this as a TIL or something..
[–]avsa 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Correlation, causation, blablabla: being atheist also correlates with higher education and other factors
[–]pahncrd 2 points3 points4 points 11 months ago
If rational humanism was to replace religion, the world would certainly be a better place. People will likely always find ways to be ignorant and violent though.
[–]redem 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
Imagine there are two sets of conflicts. Those for which religion is a necessary component (X) And those for which it is not, and thus would happen regardless of religious motivations (Y).
The set of X+Y is still greater than just the set of Y. Any reductions in conflict is surely to be desired, no?
You might argue that X is small, and I would disagree with you there, but it's a valid position. In that case, I still claim that removing X would be worth it.
[–]three_dee 10 points11 points12 points 11 months ago
How do you know? There's never been a society without religion screwing it up. We have no control group.
[–][deleted] 22 points23 points24 points 11 months ago
Stalin was an atheist. Hitler was a christian. Gandhi was religious but so were the people who killed him. The wide diversity in morality of religious individuals would seem to indicate religion often does not play a pivotal role in the development of someones morality.
[–]jimmyjango42 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
Stalin also forced his point of view on other people through threats and violence. We haven't seen an atheist society that has willfully chosen to take such a stance through logical reasoning and cognitive dissonance.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
There has never been any lasting atheist society. Stalin was meant only to serve as an example that a lack of belief in god does not equate to generosity and kindness. My examples are leaders because they are more likely to be well known but I intended for them to be seen as examples showing that belief or lack of it does not serve as a good indicator of moral character.
[–]docwyoming 2 points3 points4 points 11 months ago
Excellent post. I'd say religion helps justify evil desires however, when you claim that your wishes coaling with some deity.
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 11 months ago
Personally I believe humanity is capable of rationalizing or justifying anything we put our minds to, with or without the aid of belief in a deity.
A deity can certainly make it easier. But just look at the women who get an abortion and protest the clinic the next day. They rationalize against what their god tells them in further of their own self-interest. John Stuart Mill put it best (I'm sorry this is so long but I just couldn't bring myself to edit it-i really like his essay On Liberty. Feel free not to read it, it basically says the customs of a society trump religious beliefs)
To what an extent doctrines intrinsically fitted to make the deepest impression upon the mind may remain in it as dead beliefs, without being ever realized in the imagination, the feelings, or the understanding, is exemplified by the manner in which the majority of believers hold the doctrines of Christianity. By Christianity I here mean what is accounted such by all churches and sects--the maxims and precepts contained in the New Testament. These are considered sacred, and accepted as laws, by all professing Christians. Yet it is scarcely too much to say that not one Christian in a thousand guides or tests his individual conduct by reference to those laws. The standard to which he does refer it, is the custom of his nation, his class, or his religious profession. He has thus, on the one hand, a collection of ethical maxims, which he believes to have been vouchsafed to him by infallible wisdom as rules for his government; and on the other, a set of every-day judgments and practices, which go a certain length with some of those maxims, not so great a length with others, stand in direct opposition to some, and are, on the whole, a compromise between the Christian creed and the interests and suggestions of worldly life. To the first of these standards he gives his homage; to the other his real allegiance. All Christians believe that the blessed are the poor and humble, and those who are ill-used by the world; that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven; that they should judge not, lest they be judged; that they should swear not at all; that they should love their neighbor as themselves; that if one take their cloak, they should give him their coat also; that they should take no thought for the morrow; that if they would be perfect, they should sell all that they have and give it to the poor. They are not insincere when they say that they believe these things. They do believe them, as people believe what they have always heard lauded and never discussed. But in the sense of that living belief which regulates conduct, they believe these doctrines just up to the point to which it is usual to act upon them. The doctrines in their integrity are serviceable to pelt adversaries with; and it is understood that they are to be put forward (when possible) as the reasons for whatever people do that they think laudable. But any one who reminded them that the maxims require an infinity of things which they never even think of doing would gain nothing but to be classed among those very unpopular characters who affect to be better than other people. The doctrines have no hold on ordinary believers--are not a power in their minds. They have an habitual respect for the sound of them, but no feeling which spreads from the words to the things signified, and forces the mind to take them in, and make them conform to the formula. Whenever conduct is concerned, they look round for Mr. A and B to direct them how far to go in obeying Christ.
Source
[–]docwyoming 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Thanks, I like J.S. Mill, read that work years ago, but probably couldn't cite a single passage! I do like that he was raised from infancy as an atheist in a country where this was a near unique experience.
I have to agree with you that we all are capable of rationalizing anything... which is precisely why the claim that we have infallible dogma is dangerous.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
Nothing is more terrifying than the power of dogma
[–]JMV290 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Gandhi was religious but so were the people who killed him.
Didn't Gandhi hate Jews?
[–]ramble_scramble 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
This reminds me of the video where that Arab guy asks Richard Dawkins a question about morality or something. Morality clearly does not come from religion, or else the perceived morals of religious people would not be so undeniably heterogeneous.
[–]whateverrr13 23 points24 points25 points 11 months ago
Rape, murder, violence, and tribalism have existed since the first humans walked the earth. Religion is just another convenient scapegoat when obviously our emotions and differences have gotten the better of us since prehistory.
[–]ungoogleable 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
So let's get rid of this particular scapegoat and then move on to the next one. Best case scenario, we actually put a stop to some (but of course not all) conflicts. Worst case scenario, people are more honest about the roots of the conflicts, which could help resolve them.
[–]three_dee 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
You wouldn't say that religion aggravates it? Do you really thing there WOULDN'T be far less stonings in Saudi Arabia without religion?
[–]avsa 2 points3 points4 points 11 months ago
Saudi Arabia is a dictatorship, those got a great talent in killing people for no reason
[–]avsa 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
Communist Albania, soviet Russia, Maoist china - staunchly antireligious, persecuted religious leaders, destroyed temples and churches and fucked up the life of many people for other unrelated reasons
[–]three_dee 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Communist Albania, soviet Russia, Maoist china - staunchly antireligious,
Replaced established religions with the state-as-religion. They operate on the same principles: crush free-thought, encourage group-think and hero-worship.
That's our point exactly: people are quick to replace religion with other things to justify groupthink and killings – "state-as-religion", personality cult, nationalism, racial superiority.
I think you and me want the same thing from the world: more critical thinking, more educated opinions, freer minds – but I don't think religion is the "enemy", it's just a scapegoat du jour.
[–]triple110 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
There are lots of societies without religion. Look to the animal kingdom for your answer to the question of whether there would be wars, rape murder, etc without religion. Religion is just used by some as binding inspiration to commit what society has deemed good or evil.
If you are going to state that religion is what causes the great evils of the world, then the opposite must also be true. You must think that without religion there would be no good. Neither is the case.
[–]three_dee 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago*
There are lots of societies without religion. Look to the animal kingdom for your answer to the question of whether there would be wars, rape murder, etc without religion.
Did I say there wouldn't be any bad things in the world?
If you are going to state that religion is what causes the great evils of the world,
Not said, implied or hinted at anywhere in my comments.
Religion isn't the only cause, but it's a major irritant and perpetuator of evil. Without religion we'd have a much better ability to gain a handle on restraining evil.
Educated, rational people are less violent, less crazy people.
More educated may not be correct. Many scientific discoveries and the retention of ideas from the ancient world can be attributed to monks in the middle ages.
[–]PrivateSkittles 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
I am well aware of the contributions of the people in the middle east and the monks who kept alive much of the learning of the ancient world. I am also not saying that no one in say, India or China has ever come up with a good idea that advanced the human condition. All I am saying is if all of Europe, including those parts that were responsible for the ancient discoveries, hadn't decided to shut itself down for the dark ages then we would probably be more advanced scientifically.
[–]ptsaq 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
They didn't decide to shut themselves down. The fall of Rome the majority of knowledge from Classical Greece and Rome vanished, and it took about 1000 years for Europe to regain their footing. I am not sure if religion stopped that, I think your can argue the rigid control structure of the church probably kept the "blood loss" from being worse.
[–]ducttape83 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago*
This picture assumes that the 9/11 attacks were influenced by religion. This couldn't be further from the truth. They're about as influenced by religion as the Westboro Baptists are. So bin Laden wants to take down a superpower. He devises a plan to lure them into Afghanistan, and make them fight a war of attrition until it bankrupts the country. This was with CIA aid, and it didn't work out so well for the Soviets. 20 years later, he did it again. Political motivation under the guise of religious motivation is still political motivation. Just because he name drops "Allah," here and there doesn't make him Muslim.
Edit: Any ulterior motive comes second. 9/11 was caused by hate.
[–]knowsguy 5 points6 points7 points 11 months ago
I'm willing to bet that the fuckers who participated and willfully killed themselves were pretty fucking religious.
[–]ActuallyNot 2 points3 points4 points 11 months ago
Even if they were, the fact that the particular banner that they rallied around was religious doesn't mean that without religion the same thing wouldn't have happened with them rallying around a Patriotic or Justice or Freedom banner.
The motivations of 9/11 were geopolitical. To draw America into wars that it can't afford, as a way of limiting its influence on the Middle East. An influence that theists and atheists alike can see has been negative in recent decades. (Assuming life and liberty are positive).
[–]whateverrr13 2 points3 points4 points 11 months ago
I agree with Skittles. I don't believe in religion or atheism. If that makes me an atheist, then I'm simply the shittiest atheist you'll ever see. I simply believe in living a good life and caring for my fellow human being.
To say religion is the cause of whatever problems we have in the world is naive and pointless. If there were no religion, then we'd use every other excuse in the book to justify our self-destructive, hateful, and cruel actions toward each other throughout history.
If atheists say using God to explain the world is a fallacy, then why do we use religion to explain why people do the shitty things they do? People are inherently shitty. Let's just call it like it is and not try to avoid the real reason. The world would be better without human beings, not just religion, politics, racism, or whatever other construct atheists wanna bring up.
[–]three_dee 5 points6 points7 points 11 months ago
Why would that make you a shitty atheist? Are you implying that no atheists believe in living a good life or care about people?
If atheists say using God to explain the world is a fallacy, then why do we use religion to explain why people do the shitty things they do?
Because their religions tell them to do those bad things. Have you read the Bible?
People are inherently shitty. Let's just call it like it is and not try to avoid the real reason. The world would be better without human beings, not just religion, politics, racism, or whatever other construct atheists wanna bring up.
There's never been a society without religion fucking it up, so we have no way of knowing if people are "inherently shitty". I don't believe they are.
[–]djnnif 4 points5 points6 points 11 months ago
You can't qualify any of that shit. Using the excuse that "people are bad no matter what" so we shouldn't work to get rid of an institution from the dark ages that actively works to oppress and force its views upon people don't share the same beliefs is utter bullshit and cowardly.
There is a contradiction within that second sentence. I'm not anti-hypocracy by any means, just pointing it out. Surely you see it? I'm a hypocrite. Anyways, I have to agree with Whateverrr13, the whole "the world would be a better place without religion crew," is just an non-evidence based assertion that attempts to encompasses 4,000 years of human history and progress, and that same crew NEVER EVER points out where religion has led to good...i.e. Civil Rights, et al. They only ever see the bad.
My position? You can't say the world would be better or worse with or without religion while maintaining any shred of academic integrity/objectivity. It simply is and would be different.
[–]djnnif 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
I'm not sure why you're crediting religion for the civil rights movement, unless your talking about MLK jr. just because he was a reverend. Concerning my hypocrisy I think you are talking about the bit "share the same beliefs", well as far as I know science is the major belief system for atheists, and I don't consider that a belief system as much as I do reality as we can back up our "belief" with quantifiable data. You are right I cannot prove that the world would be a better place without religion. However I have a theory that it would be and have read many compelling arguments as to why. So to me not challenging the institution of religion because people are shit anyway, with or without, seems like a shit point of view. I guess in a nutshell I believe you have to be the change you want to see in the world, and what I believe would make the world a better place would be to see humanity rid itself of religion, race, borders and anything else that we use to divide the species.
[–]knowsguy 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
How could you possibly know, or even guess what the world would be like without religion? What do you use as a comparison?
[–]jjsullivan5196 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Maybe not more peaceful, there's no way to ensure peace in a world that is literally driven by chaos at the most basic level. But more at peace with the world, religion may be described by some as a way of peace of mind, yet really, it just creates delusion.
[–]ZombieDracula 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Religion allows those with evil in mind to take power over the people. Without an easy way to manipulate people into hatred, there would be less people involved in mob mentality of hating gays, arabs, etc.
[–]satereader 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
However, to say that a world without religion would necessarily be a peaceful one is simply not true.
No one is making this claim. The claim is merely that there would be less of that, which I find obvious.
Even if the Dark Ages did not happen and we (somehow) exponentially increased world-wide learning, and we raced into the heavens and colonized other planets, other galaxies, there would still be horrible wars where millions would die...
You don't know this. The evidence is to the contrary. As educational availability and proliferation has increased, the rate of violence on earth has diminished dramatically (though, just to be clear, I am NOT saying the link is causal.. it could be more peaceable societies produce better education systems- but that's not salient to my point). The point is over time and social development, life for the average human has gotten much, much better. In the future, it might get much better still.
[–]Hashym 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Religion compels otherwise good people to do (or condone) terrible, atrocious things. We may disagree on things and fight due to those disagreements. But most disagreements have a means of compromise. Any disagreement over systems that offer imaginary benefits in exchange for real world costs have no means of compromise in the real world.
If you want my land, you can have it. If you want my gold, then take it. If you want my "soul," then I have nothing to give you
[–]FancyMac 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
If it's not one thing it's a god damn nother.
[–]auandi 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Thank you for calling out this re:re:repost but...
Even if the Dark Ages did not happen and we (somehow) exponentially increased world-wide learning
Outside of Europe the "Dark Ages" saw the proliferation of learning. Only in Europe were there "Dark Ages," the rest of the world recovered from the collapse of their classical empires and got the fuck on with their lives. Remember Baghdad in the 900s was technically a part of the "dark ages" dispute it being one of the greatest centers of learning since Alexandria.
It's not nessisaraly your fault, that's how the west teaches history that after the classical age (~450) was the dark ages but that's just historically wrong. That's why most historians no longer use the term "dark ages" when talking about the world, it was just the "post-classical" period. China, Islam, India and Meso-America all tremendously advanced their learning at that time.
/historynerdrant
[–]deepwank 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
It is incredibly naive to think the twin towers would still be there without religion.
[–]867points 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago*
All those reasons that you mentioned are stemming from religious-like behavior. When they commit atrocities they don't necessarily believe in monotheistic gods or any other form of god. But they definitely attribute miraculous, sacred meaning(significance) to ordinary stuff. And organized religions stoke that way of perception of reality. Not necessarily directly but collaterally. These issues have complex reasons, and ignorance goes hand in hand with religious behavior.
Well, the quoted Lennon's song talk about no religion, no countries and no possessions. That removes a lot of causes of conflicts.
[–]fuzzymechy 54 points55 points56 points 11 months ago
i hate this kind of oversimplification.
[–]mavriksfan11 3 points4 points5 points 11 months ago
It's astounding how many people think 9/11 was solely the fault of religion...sad and astounding.
[–]fuzzymechy 2 points3 points4 points 11 months ago
exactly. it was an important contributor, but to ignore the just important if not more important social and political history of the region is missing the whole point. religion was the outlet for frustrations in the region, not a base cause
[–]mostlyferal 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
I have various responses to this kind of oversimplification, depending on the circumstances.
[–]tamrix 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
You could substitute the word religion for freedom and it would make just as much sense.
[–]Fuqwon 8 points9 points10 points 11 months ago
As a very not religious person(I don't really believe in the concept of faith), religion is a convenient excuse for hate, but it isn't necessarily a cause.
Certainly too many people have died because of religious differences, but even without those differences we'd still find some pretext to kill eachother.
[–]00zero00 3 points4 points5 points 11 months ago
Then we would have to deal with nihilists
[–]Strifebringer 6 points7 points8 points 11 months ago
Fuckin' nihilists.
[–]ArchitectofAges 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
I'd offer some sort of retort, but it wouldn't matter.
[–]Esplin 44 points45 points46 points 11 months ago
Arrrrgh. I personally can't wait for these to go away but I am sure someone out there enjoys it. :/
[–]xenoph 17 points18 points19 points 11 months ago
Do you refer to religion? Or to 9/11 pictures? I'm confused.
[–]Esplin 16 points17 points18 points 11 months ago
These pictures. Sorry for the confusion. :)
[–]xenoph 5 points6 points7 points 11 months ago
It's fine, thank you for your clarification.
[–]kiqrgwe 5 points6 points7 points 11 months ago
I actually thought he was talking about the towers...
The upvotes for such a bad joke confused me.
[–]ReyTheRed 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
How about both?
[–][deleted] 11 points12 points13 points 11 months ago
You're not the only one. It happened, it sucked, now people are just using the 9/11 tragedy to engineer profits. Which in itself is probably a greater tragedy.
/rant
[–]Esplin 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
Like that fucking shirt for dogs that says "Never Forget" on it. I think I saw it on here earlier. Makes my blood boil. ):
well hey now some people do want those things. now its really weird for a dog to wear one, really weird..... can't imagine whoever made those is making much.
but some people, maybe not you and me, do want a t-shirt or a bumper sticker. just their little way of remembering.
they want those things, so someone is going to have to make it and someone will need to sell it.
[–]Esplin 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
But there is no market for anything from the Oklahoma City Bombing and I doubt anyone is selling Hurricane Katrina memorabilia these days. People buy 9/11 items because they keep coming out and people use tugging at the heartstrings to sell them.
[–]J0lt 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
What's the difference between a dairy cow and 9/11? You can't milk the cow for 10 years.
[–]WallaWallaWhat 18 points19 points20 points 11 months ago
Religion is just a tool. A big, noisy tool. It's followers are just fuel. Dumb, arrogant fuel.
[–]gold_key 7 points8 points9 points 11 months ago
There will always be bad people who do bad things.
[–]habaker91 2 points3 points4 points 11 months ago
Osama's Fatawa was largely in response to American involvement with Saudi Arabia, Clinton era bombings and sanctions on Iraq, etc. Whether it would've happened without religion is questionable.
[–]chase001 2 points3 points4 points 11 months ago
9/11 was a bank robbery and the people for whom religion was an issue that were involved were pawns.
[–]FrankManic 2 points3 points4 points 11 months ago
Imagine no US and European foreign policy placing the house of Saud in power in Arabia then furnishing them with unlimited military and financial support to guarantee and uninterrupted supply of cheap oil. Imagine that without the enormous wealth of the house of Saud the Wahhabi sect would be little more than another band of minor fanatics, ignored and powerless. Imagine that without aggressive US and European intervention in the Middle East over the course of the 2oth.
[–]eobet 10 points11 points12 points 11 months ago
It's a war for territory and resources that triggered it.
Religion is just an excuse.
[–]Poes_Law_in_Action 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
Nope, Osama was jealous of our reason.
[–]ohmycherrypie 8 points9 points10 points 11 months ago
religion was the excuse, not the reason.
[–]etherreal 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
I remember 9/11. I remember that as the day this country lost its damn soul.
[–]tehsusenoh 21 points22 points23 points 11 months ago*
Actually, without religion we wouldn't have had the Dark Ages and the like, so we'd be hundreds of years ahead of the Twin Towers. Flying Cities? Colonization of Mars? Perhaps.
EDIT: GOOD FSM, I get it. I'm wrong. I accept my ignorance. Stop refuting me, you are all right.
[–]Gurneydragger 16 points17 points18 points 11 months ago
Whoa what? How was the fall of the roman empire and decentralization of European government linked to religion?
[–]papasconqueso[S] 24 points25 points26 points 11 months ago
Never though of it like that. We could have at least have Quad Towers.
[–]Aemina 8 points9 points10 points 11 months ago
Quadruple Tree Hotel.
[–]Rinnosuke 3 points4 points5 points 11 months ago
did you used to do drugs?
[–]Aemina 15 points16 points17 points 11 months ago
I still do, but I used to, too.
[–]Rinnosuke 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
you sir win :P
[–]han-shot-first 5 points6 points7 points 11 months ago
Wrong. The Dark Ages was caused by the fall of the Western Roman Empire. There could have been dozens of other ways for the feudal system to function and for a central group to exert their will without religion. Resourcefulness in oppression. That is what humanity does best. Religion is a tool for the cruel to control others and exert their will, but it is far from the only one.
[–]Alphawolf55 2 points3 points4 points 11 months ago
Can we stop using the term "Dark Ages". It was the middle ages, dark ages have no culture or anything, the "dark ages" certainly had culture.
[–]auandi 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
The "Dark ages" only affected Northern/Western Europe. The rest of the world continued learning just fine. Spain was learned, Constantinople was learned as was most of Asia, Central America and Africa. Baghdad in the 800s and 900s was one of the world's all time the great centers of learning right up there with Alexandria yet that was a part of the "Dark Ages."
Europe is not so important that losing half of it to centuries of religious oppression "held back" all of mankind. I know it runs counter to the way most learn history but there was no global "dark ages" there was only a post-classical period (~450-1453) when parts of Europe slowed its learning (though still didn't stop completely).
[–]calibwam 7 points8 points9 points 11 months ago
I have to disagree. Without religion, we would probably never gotten to where we are now. But it should have been botched as soon as science got to speed. Even if you don't like to admit it, religion has brought us some prosperity, among the huge amounts of bs and hate.
[–]thorthemighty 14 points15 points16 points 11 months ago
If there was no religion in the first place... the great thinkers and scientists would not have reason to slow down discoveries for fear of being persecuted and executed by the religious in power.
religion slowed down the process of science and discovery, who knows where we might have been today if there wasn't anything to bottleneck scientific progress...
[–]mavriksfan11 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Ethics also bottlenecks scientific progress. We could be cloning humans, but no one can take the first step because of the ethical implications.
I'd hate to live in a world where literally nothing bottlenecks scientific progress.
[–]SgtSmackdaddy 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
Agreed. Religion served a purpose for early man - it fostered community and helped keep our ancestors focused on survival and not collapsing to despair during times of hardship.
It's not so much that science has replaced religion, as science has existed for thousands of years if not longer (observing empirical evidence and altering practices based on those observations, we only codified it into the scientific method recently), but instead philosophies like existentialism and humanism have provided a viable alternative to theology for providing meaning in human lives.
[–]I_am_anonymous 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
[citation needed]
[–]otakuman 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
obligatory
[–]steveotheguide 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
The Middle Ages were caused by a number of things. The fall of the Western Roman Empire, migrations, decentralized organization. Religion didn't cause them. Beyond that the major repository of knowledge saved from that era comes from churches. The only real organization and leadership in that time came from the Church. Culture, literacy, philosophy, mathematics were all saved and fostered by the church in the middle ages. That is not so say they did nothing wrong in the middle ages, they most certainly did. However the Church was not the cause and probably helped stave off some of the worst that comes from a collapse of culture.
Let's not get our history wrong.
The Dark Ages didn't exactly set back all societies for ages. In the Arab world and Sinosphere, scientific advancements and enlightenments were growing almost exponentially. In fact, most historians would laugh at you for calling them the Dark Ages because they paved the way for the Renaissance, Europe's explosion of knowledge and humanism.
[–]Carbon_Deadlock 3 points4 points5 points 11 months ago
ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?!
I posted this same exact picture 16 hours ago and got my shit ripped out; fuck everything.
http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/kbq4y/most_important_thing_to_think_about_today/
[–]dmsean 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
without karma, how will you ever get to heaven to receive your 72 virgins.
[–]Moh7 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Scumbag r/politics:
Makes fun of theists for believing in a magic sky man.
Angry when they don't receive pointless internet fairy points.
[–]Tootsie258 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
Imagine all the people, living life in peace. They say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope some day you'll join us, and the world will be as one.
[–]PhysicsIsMyMistress 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
IMAGINE NO AMERICAN INTERFERENCE IN THE ARAB WORLD*
Fixed that for you
[–]eXtreme98 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
I'm ridiculously annoyed with people that say "religion is always bad/there should be no religion/ban religion/etc."
I'm an atheist too but come on, seriously? Religion has given people hope too, y'know. Just saying "imagine a world without religion" doesn't mean the world would be a better place. There will always be people who kill others because it is not only of our nature but it is instinct of many animals in order to survive. No, I am not saying that killing is always a good thing; I am saying that there will always be the murderers, rapists, etc. I know I'm going to get a super handful of down votes but I cannot be the only one who believes this.
My opinion on the matter? Religion is just something for most atheists to blame. Sure, religion can be influential but so can news, video games, books, music, movies, people (parents and peers), etc. It is the INDIVIDUAL that hasn't evolved mentally to understand that killing people won't do shit. People will always believe whatever the hell they want.
[–]genericname12345 7 points8 points9 points 11 months ago
Religion is a major evolutionary step for humanity. Without it, we may not have pulled out of the late paleolithic. We would have stayed nomadic for a longer period of time. Religion means temples, temples need construction, construction needs skills, tools, and labor. All of these come from settling. Settling gives rise to agriculture and domestication. These give higher yields meaning less work per person to survive, and more free time. Free time yields advancement and specialization.
Universities and Academia were originally Catholic schools or Monastic orders. Without these, there would have been no study of the arts that lead to the reniassance and the development of the scientific method.
This is clever, and snippy and witty, but really doesn't take in to account all factors in Religion's existence. A 'religious' system is required for human beings. It is a social need. For some it might be Christianity, for others, it may be WoW, Reddit, or yes, even Atheism.
[–]Bolnazzar 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
I have to agree and disagree with you on that.
I agree that religion did do all those things, but I don't really agree that it was needed. We, as a race, have always liked pretty things, like art or nice buildings, so we would have built other buildings instead of temples that still requires a lot of skill.
Also, the reason why the first universities were religious were because they had power, money and a reason to build them. If we, instead of religion, had a central merchant guild (for example), they would also have power, money and a reason to build schools. We would have gotten here without religion.
Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "'religious' system", but I don't count Reddit, games or atheism as systems, and in no way religious. To have somewhere to talk to (and just hang with) people of similar interests does not require anything like a religious system, so I don't think we as humans need it.
[–]BobsSecondHand 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
| A 'religious' system is required for human beings. [...] For some it might be [...] Atheism.
How the dillio can atheism be a religious system?
[–]slashbringinghasher 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
He is saying that it provides a community much like religion does.
[–]genericname12345 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
I may have been unclear in my phrasing. I meant that Religion is a required social system. Things that fill that system would be WoW/Reddit/Atheism. Not saying Atheism is a religion, just that it fills the seem evolutionary 'slot' as religion.
[–]salmonswimmingdown 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
I agree that it aids advancement to a degree, but after a time, religion becomes a hinderance. While useful once, it would be more useful to cast it aside now...
[–]smellslikegelfling 2 points3 points4 points 11 months ago
I think because it is a little naive to think that 9/11 attack was only because of the attackers' religion. There was a lot more to it, such as how the U.S. has been making a mess out of the middle east for a long time.
[–]SgtSmackdaddy 3 points4 points5 points 11 months ago
While I am an atheist, I have seen this meme over and over on reddit and it's rather annoying. Religion didn't knock down those towers, it certainly made it easier to convince the hijackers to kill themselves I'm sure. But in reality it was American imperialism and interventionalism around the world that lead to this blowback.
[–]Ajdiv 6 points7 points8 points 11 months ago
That's like saying women dressing in mini skirts causes rape.
[–]photobesity 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
Posted on FB, several people commented that imagined a world without Islam. Think they missed the point.
[–]pdinfw 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
I would upvote this 100 times if I could.
[–]ohdabbadabba 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
imagine
no planes
[–]Hypersapien 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
You comment from the other thread.
An atheist rejects religion for reason, critical thinking
That isn't actually true. Atheism means that the person doesn't have a belief in any gods. It says nothing about the reason they don't believe. Stalin and Mao were atheists, since they didn't have a belief in any gods.
Personally I think we need to focus more on secular humanism rather than atheism.
[–]TheHumpadump 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
You could say 'imagine a world without people '. It's the same concept.
[–]oldscotch 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
If there was no religion, they'd have used another scapegoat as an excuse.
[–]Anonymous_Bosch 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
Should read 'Imagine, no Islam'.
[–]Scarker 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
Religion is perfectly fine. It is the ones who practice them with hatred in their hearts for others, who shouldn't be in this world.
Nobody will read this, but I'll say it anyway:
YOU'RE FUCKING STUPID, OP.
DO YOU HONESTLY THINK "RELIGION" IS WHAT CAUSED 9/11?
This community is a fucking disgrace.
[–]skizatch 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
What do you think caused it?
[–]Voicer 2 points3 points4 points 11 months ago
People would just find new reasons to kill each other. You don't need religion for this.
Anyone even vaguely familiar with world history knows the number of murders committed by communist regimes eclipses those committed in the name of religion several times over.
Lastly, Osama didn't attack the United States because he's a muslim who really hates Christians. He did it because he didn't like the USA interfering in middle-eastern affairs. The attack on the WTC was political, not religious.
Whoever designed this image is ignorant.
[–]Exallium 2 points3 points4 points 11 months ago
john lennon said it best.
[–]flyguy2005 6 points7 points8 points 11 months ago
Lennon said it a bit more eloquently than this caps locked bold font representation.
To me this reads: "IMAGINE NO RELIGION! DO IT NOW! ARE YOU IMAGINING?"
[–]WithKaleidoscopeEyes 1 point2 points3 points 11 months ago
I agree. This representation is a bit too harsh.
[–]powersaucy 2 points3 points4 points 11 months ago
they say I'm a dreamer but I'm not
[–]WellHeresMyFourthAcc 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
I hope someday that you'll join us...
[–]Nightblade 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
"And God help Bruce Springsteen when they decide he's no longer God... They'll turn on him, and I hope he survives it. "
[–]ItIsMarc 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Imagine all the peopuuule.
[–]mikey13 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
imagine: no greed
[–]Topspy 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
It's easy if you try.
[–]ShitCtrlZCtrlZ 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Damn sea otters
[–]Isaac_Shepard 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
its easy if you try
[–]lilstumpz 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
I saw this post in the "atheism" group on facebook...
[–]alexgeek 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
This was my boot image for a while.
[–]sh0rtgeek 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
"Of course there's war, the damned French Chinese think they have a right to Hawaii!"
[–]Vaskrus 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Imagine a world wothout dickholes.
[–]nailimixam 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
It's especially funny because the sun makes a cross in between the buildings.
[–]MormonAtheist 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
I had suspected we would see this today. Brainwashing and indoctrination are the engine of extremism like this, and of course it was politics that drove the leadership of the Islamic cults to instruct their followers to do this.
I'd rather imagine a world with universal education. One that includes critical thinking and inoculates against brainwashing. There will still be terrorists like Timothy McVeigh and Anders Behring Breivik, and terrorists groups like Al Qaeda will probably still exist, but they would be completely defanged without the ability to brainwash followers.
[–]forevercajones 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Oh. My. Science.
Relevant episode is relevant.
[–]doodwitideaz[] 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
why is it tilted?
[–]popscythe 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Imagine
No Reposts
[–]Bolnazzar 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Reddit would die within a month.
[–]popscythe 2 points3 points4 points 11 months ago
I refuse to take that on faith. Lets do an experiment.
[–]wolfsktaag 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
personally i blame aerodynamics researchers who have allowed such large and powerful planes to be built
[–]StudleyMumfuzz 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Dogmatism would still exist and there would still be scary people on this Earth.
[–]knofle 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Science damnit! It's the science damn Unified Atheist League! Their science is flawed! Kill them in the name of the United Atheist Alliance!
[–]shawnpeps 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
But... 9/11 wasn't just based on religion. There's way more to it than that.
[–]xiipaoc 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
We can probably say that there would be no suicide bombers without religion. Oh, wait, the original kamikaze pilots of Japan didn't do it for gods; they did it for their people and their country.
We can probably say that there would be no reason for terror without religion. Actually, I think that would be true with regards to the Middle East. Islam conquered the entire wider region because it was Islam, and the Crusades happened for religious reasons. It's a little too counterfactual, though...
I think the influence of religious faith is overestimated in this calculation. Many of the causes of wars and aggressions are more aptly described as cultural rather than religious. Christians used to think that they were better than everyone else, and when everyone else wasn't happy about becoming Christian, they attacked with superior technology. And even when they did become Christian, the original Christians still thought they were better than everyone else for other reasons, so they captured everyone else as slaves. That's the story of the New World, in a nutshell. Christianity was used as little more than justification of existing prejudice.
[–]gonzomehum 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Religious motives for war tend to merely be excuses for baser motives. Usually greed, spite, or - just sometimes - genuine conflicts of interests.
Most, if not all of the time, that religion's mixed up in war, it is the tool of the powerful to convince the foolish that the war is justified. In the end, it's still just a tool. And without it, they'll just find a different excuse.
So, no. The resolution "a world without religion will be more peaceful" is simply false. There will always be powerful men, and the fools that listen to them.
[–]rwgordon 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
I agree with the sentiment of this, but everyone posts it like "man, this is heavy shit - i'm gonna fucking blow some people's minds" and it's so old now that it's almost meaningless. You could easily change the slogan to "Image no oil" and it would mean the same thing. It's one thing to walk around for the rest of the year saying, "Fucking Christmas, it's stupid," but on Christmas day if someone says Merry Christmas just say it back and smile you dick bag.
[–]TheDukeAtreides 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Maybe they shot it down because its been posted countless times.
[–]McLarenF1God 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Well..yeah, technically this is true.
I seriously seriously seriously seriously doubt that 9/11 just wouldn't have happened if there was no religion.
[–]Hadrius 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Shot down... hmmm... can't tell if pun, or... horribly timed joke...
[–]SPacific 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
The two biggest cultural moments I can remember were John Lennon's death and 9-11. Now they are combined in one handy image. I no longer need remember both individually. Thank you for freeing up those brain cells for me.
[–]Drawtaru 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Okay, here is my thoughts on "no religion" as a concept: when scientists are trying to decide what is and isn't a human (in terms of the ancient past), one of the major things that's considered is whether or not they bury their dead. Don't bury their dead? Not human. Bury their dead? Human. When neanderthals and cro-magnons buried their dead, they often buried them with flowers, tools, weapons, jewelry, etc., which indicated that they believed in some kind of afterlife. To believe in an afterlife, you have to have some concept of religion. Therefore, religion is part of human nature. (Or human/elephant nature, if you consider the fact that elephants sometimes bury their dead.)
That being said, it doesn't make religion right or wrong, true or false. As a species, we're hard-wired to be inclined to believe that there is a power out there, greater than us, that either cares what happens to us, or wants to keep us down.
Atheists always blame religion, when the real problem is people. People create conflicts. And the biggest reason why we were attacked that day was b/c we're occupying other places with different people. So even w/o religion, we'd have some version of 9/11.
[–]NoahFect 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
It would be harder to justify, though. How would you convince 19 people to martyr themselves spectacularly, without invoking an afterlife?
[–]craiggers 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Shot Down
ಠ_ಠ
[–]BadHat 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Hey, neat. http://i.imgur.com/Kxj5F.png
[–]jubalm 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
http://i.imgur.com/CHSmE.png
oh fuck
[–]Bluelegs 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
If there was no religion cultures would built solely on nationalism. Suddenly dying for your god becomes dying for your country (which is the case in some cultures already.) Do we really want to think that religion is solely to blame for the 9/11 attacks, for the war on terror and other such tragic events? It seems like a very naive scapegoat to choose over such complicated issues.
[–]pgan91 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
But... there will always be maniacs! They may not use religion as an excuse, but they WILL find some justification for their actions.
[–]f0rcedinducti0n 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
What day was this picture taken? If any one can figure out that information... I'll explain.
I am awesome
(July 28, 2001)
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/w/wtc-sun.htm
architects some times build features into projects like this to represent something... maybe July 28th is significant to the WTC or the parties involved... I know they built the new WTC so that on 9/11 the sun shines on the ponds that are now in the foot prints of the old WTC 1,2
[–]wfb0002 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
This was not a religious attack regardless of what our government/Al Quaeda would like to make you believe.
[–]dblandon 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
When I see sentiment like this, I always suggest the one displaying it to read the critically acclaimed novel The Butter Battle Book, by Dr. Seuss. We'll always find something to fight over.
[–]freddofrogs 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Yeah well it gets shot up in /r/atheism.
Take that religion
[–]bushwakko 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
... using the primary example for what happens when you treat economics as a science. very similar to religion...
[–]RealLifeTim 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
This is the least religion has done.
[–]Sogeking99 0 points1 point2 points 11 months ago
Sure if their was no religion there would still be evil, but a HUGE chunk of it would no longer exist.
all it takes is a username and password
create account
is it really that easy? only one way to find out...
already have an account and just want to login?
login
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