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top 200 commentsshow all 241

[–]1jq512 94 points95 points ago

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This is a real mindfuck

[–]Khollest 45 points46 points ago

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Seriously, I found myself in a paradoxical loop before resolving it with: "Fuck it, I'm going bowling".

[–]hereboy 9 points10 points ago

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I thought about it for a second and then noticed that Mark Twain looks like a rage face.

[–]floatablepie 4 points5 points ago

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He's not quite an "Are you kidding me?" face, almost seems like he would be a perfect "I'm sick of putting up with your shit" face.

[–]holyerthanthou 6 points7 points ago

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i think it looks like this ----------> ಠ_ಠ

[–]fashizzIe 1 point2 points ago*

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Working on it. I'll edit this post to include it when I finish.

Edit: Right, here we go.

[–]bassbin 1 point2 points ago

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You turned him into Kurt Vonnegut!

...which is not necessarily a bad thing.

[–]hereboy 0 points1 point ago

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This just screams "Son I am disappoint."

[–]chipnick87 0 points1 point ago

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Quick, inform the f7u12 artists!

[–]C0debreak 3 points4 points ago

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Artists... heh...

[–]MikeOnFire 1 point2 points ago

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"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules. "

[–]DodongoHatesFire 2 points3 points ago

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Over the line! Mark it zero!

[–]cresteh -1 points0 points ago

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Let's go, cousin.

[–]tallonfour 4 points5 points ago

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I grew up in a very Catholic household but I remember once night when I was pretty young being so upset that God wouldn't forgive Satan. I actually cried myself to sleep praying that he would. I felt funny the next morning.

[–]Firesinis -2 points-1 points ago

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It's not. In Christian theology only humans can be redeemed. Satan isn't human, so it's pointless to pray for his salvation.

[–]tollforturning 2 points3 points ago

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[–]Meditato 5 points6 points ago

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There's actually no reason to believe this. I've seen plenty of "only humans can be redeemed" rationalizations, but none of them really have any biblical support. If angels have the "free" will to rebel, then they also have the "free" will to ask for forgiveness.

Then again, I don't give a shit because none of it actually makes sense in a wider context anyway.

[–]Firesinis 1 point2 points ago

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but none of them really have any biblical support.

Only Protestant Theology requires biblical support for their doctrines, and even so only if it's Sola Scriptura oriented, as opposed to Prima Scriptura oriented. Catholic Theology rely also on the Sacred Tradition and Magistery as sources of information that are equally reliable as the Bible.

Nevertheless, there are indeed several Biblical passages mentioning the unforgivable nature of the Eternal Sin (or Unforgivable Sin, against the Holy Spirit, which is the sin the fallen angels committed), as you will find below.

If angels have the "free" will to rebel, then they also have the "free" will to ask for forgiveness.

It is clear that they can ask for forgiveness, but there reasons why it's not clear that they'll ever get it in this way. First, the whole Salvation Theology doesn't apply to them Ex officio (automatically) as it does for human beings, because God established an explicit alliance with mankind that grants humans automatic forgiveness and salvation upon repentance, while there is no such alliance going on for non-humans. Of course God can in his own ways grant them entrance to Heaven, but it's going to be on an individual basis, rather than in the same way humans get it.

Secondly, it's not clear even if they would actually ask for forgiveness, because although they technically are capable to, the state of Sin against the Holy Spirit is the precise condition that makes them blind and not recognizant of the need for forgiveness, exactly like humans who engage in the Unforgivable Sin.

References: Eternal Sin.

EDIT: Better yet http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/k8eax/who_indeed/c2id4rs

[–]Meditato 1 point2 points ago*

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Only Protestant Theology requires biblical support for their doctrines, and even so only if it's Sola Scriptura oriented, as opposed to Prima Scriptura oriented.

Most Protestant Christian denominations ascribing to Prima Scriptura still require biblical substantiation for theologically significant claims. "The Holy Spirit has moved me to start a church" is a radically different concept from "The Holy Spirit came to me in a dream and told me that angels can't be forgiven", which is altogether much rarer.

But you're right- I'm not particularly interested in the contradictory alpha male "revelation" bullshit in Catholic theology ("oh hey, I can just make a papal bull if I feel like it and it'll be the true word of God"). Biblical self-consistency is far more interesting to analyze, as opposed to the contradictory whims of different historical Vatican regimes.

(or Unforgivable Sin, against the Holy Spirit, which is the sin the fallen angels committed)

I'd like those passages, please. Because as far as I know, most such passages make no claim about angels. And technically, most preambles in eschatological narratives place the first angelic rebellions against the Father. The first sins of human rebellion, for example, were not necessarily sins against the Holy Spirit- Adam, Eve, and the Serpent sinned in that way, but the mainstream theological position is that Adam and Eve were not classified as having sinned unforgivably. I'd also say that since Jesus only debuted that "Unforgivable Sin" position in the 1st century, God wouldn't hold people to it prior to that announcement.

It is clear that they can ask for forgiveness, but there reasons why it's not clear that they'll ever get it in this way

Yes, that's my point. No certain position can be taken. But it's reasonable to assume that they can ask for (and potentially receive) forgiveness since they have free will, and it's also reasonable to assume that the Christian God would also show compassion toward "His" servants.

[–]Firesinis 1 point2 points ago

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I'm not particularly interested in the contradictory alpha male "revelation" bullshit in Catholic theology Biblical self-consistency is far more interesting to analyze, as opposed to the contradictory whims of different historical Vatican regimes.

You do realize that the actual canon of Scripture and the affirmation of its inspired nature were products of the Catholic Tradition and Magistery on the 4th century Hippo council, so if you recognize the authority of the Bible you are actually following a "contradictory alpha male "revelation" bullshit in Catholic theology", right?

[–]Meditato 1 point2 points ago

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You do realize that the actual canon of Scripture and the affirmation of its inspired nature were products of the Catholic Tradition and Magistery on the 4th century Hippo council, so if you recognize the authority of the Bible you are actually following a "contradictory alpha male "revelation" bullshit in Catholic theology", right?

That's not technically correct. First of all, the Synod of Hippo affirmed the canon- it didn't create it. Informally, the canon was fairly "set" by the early second century. Second of all, to say that it was a product of Catholic Tradition is a mistake. The early Christians were in no way "Catholic" in the sense of the word that we know today. There's no historical evidence of a formal organization that in any way resembles what we would call "Catholic" until the 3rd century. And Papal Bulls weren't even around for another several hundred years.

[–]Firesinis 1 point2 points ago

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There's no historical evidence of a formal organization that in any way resembles what we would call "Catholic" until the 3rd century.

The Didaché clearly delineates key Catholic rituals being practiced as early as the 2nd century. And even if there wasn't the Didaché, what evidence is there of the contrary? What documents prove that the the early Christians weren't Catholic?

And Papal Bulls weren't even around for another several hundred years.

But Papal authority was. The Papal succession is well-know and documented in the Church's tradition. In the Bible Jesus clearly states that he would establish the Church with Peter as the foundation, and in Galatians we see Paul (the quintessential scholarly Apostle) going to seek lecture with Peter, which was an ignorant fisherman. Why do you think was the reason?

[–]Meditato 1 point2 points ago*

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The Didaché clearly delineates key Catholic rituals being practiced as early as the 2nd century.

Rituals which became associated with Catholicism. It was not Roman Catholic-specific at that time. There was no central Catholic organization. The Church hierarchy was fragmented.

What documents prove that the the early Christians weren't Catholic?

Nope. You're shifting the burden of proof so that I'll have to prove a negative in order to answer that. That's like if I asked "what documents prove that Jesus didn't travel to America?" Obviously there aren't any documents which prove that he didn't because no document addresses that. In other words, there's an absence of evidence altogether. Now before you try to use the following argument as a justification, I concede that absence of evidence is not necessarily an evidence of absence, but that argument is constantly abused by Christians, and to apply it here in favor of your position proves nothing (see "Russell's teapot" for an illustration). The burden of proof is on the claimant. Your claims about Catholicism are traditional stories which the church used to ex post facto rationalize its legitimacy. Such traditions are not evidence. Without legitimate evidence contemporary to that time period, there is no evidence for the theological supremacy of Catholicism.

We do, however, have evidence for decidedly non-Catholic hierarchies- the second century piece The Shepherd of Hermas, for example, depicts 2nd century authority as belonging to a confederation of elders- no bishops or central authority.

In the Bible Jesus clearly states that he would establish the Church with Peter as the foundation

There's this revisionist history among the Catholic hierarchy that Catholicism was established and given credibility by Jesus himself. But really, that's an extreme over-interpretation of Jesus' ministry and his communication with Simon Peter. He doesn't say "the Church". There's no definite article there and no capitalization of "Church". That's really just a sly way to try and portray Catholicism as being the only entity to result from this exchange, so that Catholicism as an organization can portray itself as the Church. But the reality is that Jesus' church existed as multiple loose organizations prior to the centralization of the Church- according to Eamon Duffy, Christians felt that they were part of a central body (the Body of Christ), but not a central organization. Additionally, we have multiple legitimate regional churches (later diocese, although still distinct from Rome) which later became the Oriental and Eastern Churches. These began breaking from the rest when the Pentarchy began asserting their authority over Christianity.

All in all, independent organizations have just as legitimate a claim to Jesus' "my church" reference as anyone else, because there's no evidence that Jesus' commandment to Simon Peter referenced a particular future organization. This becomes even harder to stomach when we consider that multiple organizations schismed off the decentralized results of Peter's work- Peter and Paul's spread of Christianity didn't just result in one lineage.

Not that I care. I'm an atheist.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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That's even more reason to pray for them. Come on God, make them redeemable too.

[–]yesukai 4 points5 points ago

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Yeah, what a dick, making a creature that is nonredeemable.

[–]rahku 0 points1 point ago

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Damn you and you're illogical logic!

[–]skarface6 -1 points0 points ago

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*your

[–]Bflave_notmyrealname 1 point2 points ago

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What's the difference between theology and mythology?

[–]skarface6 0 points1 point ago

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One has current scholarship and billions of followers, and the other doesn't?

[–]B0BtheDestroyer 12 points13 points ago

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Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, and St. Clement of Alexandria are recorded supporting the potential salvation of the devil. http://www.jstor.org/pss/2708524 http://theologicalscribbles.blogspot.com/2011/08/origen-on-salvation-of-devil.html That's just a shallow look at early church fathers. I don't think you would have to look to far to find others connoted to "universalism" who would hope and pray for the salvation of the devil.

[–]UnderTruth 1 point2 points ago

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I was just about to post this. Coming from an Orthodox perspective (albeit as a convert), I don't understand how people can say "God is Love"--but He somehow fails to Love all that He created. I'm bad at praying in general, but I think praying for everyone is an expression of love.

[–]ProDrug 10 points11 points ago

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There were/are sects that believe that Satan was a martyr and sacrificed himself for God's will. There are also sects that believe Judas was actually Jesus's closest companion and the only one that could be trusted to do what was needed to fulfill scripture.

[–]funnynickname 3 points4 points ago*

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I've always read the part about Judas as being requested by Jesus.

Jesus, at the last supper basically says 'One of you MUST betray me.'

[–]BringFire 1 point2 points ago

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Certainly makes the whole "betrayed with a kiss" part make more sense.

[–]cityfires 0 points1 point ago

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The latter is taken from a portion of the Gospel of Judas. However, I don't know of any historical evidence that Christian sects believed this to be scripture. Almost universally, the early church fathers recognized it as being a forgery, not having been written by it's claimed author or written any time near the 4 canonical gospels. There are some early letters written between the church fathers warning of these false gospels floating around, as opposed to the already accepted 4 gospels.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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There are also sects that believe Judas was actually Jesus's closest companion and the only one that could be trusted to do what was needed to fulfill scripture.

People like me who love Jesus Christ Superstar.

[–][deleted] ago*

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[deleted]

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points ago

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Does Satan even have a will? In later Christian theology, everything but man works according to his will. Satan's part of a grander plan.

[–]IamThatGuy200 4 points5 points ago

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This is what I remember learning from bible classes years back (prefaced with the fact I am not a currently practicing Christian, nor a theeologist).

Satan was God's most powerful angel, and had free will. Satan loved God very much, but hated that God created man with free will; he thought man was undeserving of God's love. God allowed the angels to have free will once, and only to pick a side, God's or Satan's. The "fallen" angels became what we would consider demons.

[–]funnynickname 1 point2 points ago

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The bible is a metaphor. The bad part of town is hell, sodom and gomorrah, and the good part of town is heaven. Satan would be drug dealers, etc. You'll find many jesus like characters on the good side of town and the bad side of town. Not everyone on the good side of town is good, and not everyone who professes to be jesus-like can be trusted.

[–]BringFire 0 points1 point ago

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That's actually the Islamic version of events. Essentially Satan did not think himself greater than God, but he certainly thought he was better than those upstart humans made out of clay.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan#Islam

It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels prostrate to Adam, and they prostrate; not so Iblis (Lucifer); He refused to be of those who prostrate."

(Allah) said: "What prevented thee from prostrating when I commanded thee?" He said: "I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay. Qur'an 7:11–12

In the Christian version, Satan thought he was better than God and it was the pride of thinking himself better than God, not man.

[–]IamThatGuy200 0 points1 point ago

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Wow, that's really cool. I must have read the Islamic version in passing and wrongly attributed it to bible classes as a youngster. Thank you.

[–]joeblessyou 0 points1 point ago

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See, as a metalhead I'm obliged to tell you a different perspective. Lucifer realized God's tyrannical and conceited personality, and revealed it to other angels. God cast him and others out of heaven because of his intolerant and merciless nature. After the creation of Adam and Eve, it was Lucifer who freed us from God's brainwashing. Lucifer convinced Adam and Eve to obtain knowledge of good and evil, thus opening their eyes and having the ability to morally judge God's actions.

[–]IamThatGuy200 0 points1 point ago

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You should check into the gnostic texts, it tells a similar story in that God was tyrannical and conceited, and a higher creator, Helen I believe, is the true creator. In their version, Jesus came to tell us (through Judas, Mary Magdelene, and the other gnostic texts) the true way to subvert God and reach Helen.

[–]ENTertain_Me 0 points1 point ago

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Always gotta be that guy

[–]IamThatGuy200 0 points1 point ago

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Well, someone has to.

[–]temporary_acount 0 points1 point ago

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I dunno man. I just know basic Christianity from too much private school. I don't keep up with any kind of theology, and such now-a-days.

[–]Amehunt 4 points5 points ago

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I may need to read between the lines better but I began to notice to so much of Christian mythology is not from the bible, but from the culture that developed and tradition. I.e. Limbo, Adam's first wife Lilith, and a lot about the Arch angles. Don't get me wrong there is a lot in the old testament that most people don't read, but a lot was developed by guys in later years (i.e. Dante's version of hell, which doesn't have circles according to the bible)

TL;DR: Satan was most loved of God's angels, but doesn't actually was he was given free will or talk about his nature much at all in the bible.

[–]tanstaafl90 1 point2 points ago

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The reinterpretation of the Bible, new and old testament, has made some westerners think that somehow it's not an anthology of collected works where Jewish thinking, tradition and history are wrapped in a cloak of holiness. There had to be an explanation for evil happening, as well as some sort of retribution for bad behavior, though Satan is not really mentioned as much as the concept of sin.

[–]irobeth 1 point2 points ago

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The Kabbalistic explanation for evil is that God produced it, along with mercy/grace, as a compromise between his conflicting attributes of absolute love and absolute justice.

[–]tanstaafl90 1 point2 points ago

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There had to be some way to get people to understand it's not ok to bonk your neighbor on the head and take his stuff that was both strong enough to give one pause, but flexible enough to be forgiving of mistakes. Fundamentally, humans are still wrestling with the same questions and problems that they always have, we just have a much higher standard of living.

[–]irobeth 0 points1 point ago

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Judging from your comments, you're arguing for a organic origin of religion and I understand that; I was just commenting on the 'explanation for evil happening' portion with what I understand of Rabbinical study.

[–]tanstaafl90 0 points1 point ago

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I tend to look at religion in a more anthropological way than anything else, but what you said is interesting. Thanks for sharing.

[–]timidity -2 points-1 points ago

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In my opinion, your first paragraph was not large enough to warrant a tl;dr. You must make the lazy creatures work for it!

[–]Ljt216 1 point2 points ago

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Or in Christian theology Lucifer is a demon or fallen angel and therefore has no soul to save. He is not human.

[–]chipnick87 1 point2 points ago

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That, and it says in the bible that Satan will be cast into hell anyway, so it's not like there's anything we could do about it anyway.

[–]OMGBeez 0 points1 point ago

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Isn't everyone redeemable if they repent before death? Though, I guess Satan also doesn't count for that too if he is dead/undead/fallen angel/one winged angel/sephiroth/what have you.

I dunno, I think Satan's just in there to give people an outward excuse for sinning, rather than accepting that the temptation is within themselves.

I'm a Buddhist that eats meat.

[–]Kalimdrone 2 points3 points ago

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I had wondered after I read "one winged angel" if the next word is what it is, then my eyes read it. Victory.

[–]phreeck 1 point2 points ago

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Have you even been to a Christian church? Satan is NOT an excuse to make people feel better about sin.

[–]OMGBeez 0 points1 point ago

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Was raised Catholic, which is apparently more hated than any other Christian. I honestly don't remember talking about Satan at all... I get this idea from all the people I've met in the real world who claim they were possessed by Satan after raping, getting drunk, or beating their wife and children.

[–]phreeck 0 points1 point ago

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I have never met anyone who claimed to be possessed. There could be other factors in their experience if you don't honestly believe they were possessed, drug use etc but they could definitely just be using him to try to get away with it.

I thought your original comment was just saying that his mere existence was to justify sin.

[–]OMGBeez 0 points1 point ago

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Sometimes I get the feeling that it is nowadays. I mean, back when I was growing up, I thought he was there to give balance - God was the light and Satan was the dark.. but now I see that people are afraid of God too... so you're supposed to be afraid of God AND Satan?

But people aren't really afraid of Satan as much as I was taught to fear him... He ended up being the mischief we're supposed to avoid and the answer to anything that God wouldn't do... like planting dinosaur bones to trick us and tempting us to do said drugs and whatever other sins we've committed. Hence the phrase "the devil made me do it."... but when it comes to say, 9/11 or Katrina, that was God, not Satan, punishing the gays or what have you.

I know I'm pulling stuff from all different directions here. What I'm saying is not fact - just the way I see it from my viewpoint.

[–]amadeus2490 0 points1 point ago

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Isn't everyone redeemable if they repent before death?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

[–]joeknowswhoiam 0 points1 point ago

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Seems like angels can't die (even if they deserve to die, according to this source)... so they are pretty screwd on this one ;)

[–]OMGBeez 0 points1 point ago

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Good show, sir.

[–]irobeth 0 points1 point ago

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If salvation is covenant based only, maybe the Angels' covenant for salvation was the decision to leave heaven with Satan or stay with God.

[–]tanstaafl90 0 points1 point ago

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Satan is the manifestation of temptation that we all have, sin is giving into that temptation. Seeing how giving into that temptation has caused harm in yourself and others, and feeling shame/guilt in that temptation is desirable to help keep repeat offenses from occurring. Context is everything with the bible, as it is an an anthology, so what is a specific point in one part may have seemingly contradictory wording in another part. By placing sin and redemption outside of people's control, the minor sects have grown large by offering salvation at a price. Martin Luther would not be amused.

[–]GreyInkling[!] 0 points1 point ago

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There're plenty of arguments within Christianity against the devil actually existing and being more of a metaphor for evil and rebellion from God. But just like the much better arguments for the obvious allegorical nature of the creation story, most Christians would rather cling to the idea that the more puritan and evangelical worldviews are the only ones.

[–][deleted] ago*

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[deleted]

[–]CommondeNominator 11 points12 points ago

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This is a pretty obtuse claim.

[–]Norumu 2 points3 points ago

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But he's right!

[–]Kalimdrone 4 points5 points ago

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Quite acute you are for noticing this.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points ago

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Maybe we should try looking at it from a different angle?

[–]DarrelSirens 9 points10 points ago

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You're right, Satan was never mentioned as an angle in the Bible.

But he was an angel. He wad described as physically beautiful. Out of jealousy, he broke himself away from God and turned to sin. Satan is mentioned a shitload of times in the Bible.

[–]Ljt216 7 points8 points ago

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Isaiah 14:12 (King James Version)

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

NIV

How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

The falling from heaven would infer Lucifer was an angel

[–]theartofrolling 6 points7 points ago

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Just so you know.

The falling from heaven would imply Lucifer was an angel

FTFY

Infer is when you infer something from something. E.g. "From this passage we can infer that satan was an angel."

Imply is what the passage does. E.g. "The bible implies that satan was an angel." A book cannot infer anything, as it does not pertain the ability to do so.

[–]gomphus 1 point2 points ago

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Pro tip for clearer English: "A book... does not have the ability to do so."

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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theartofrolling

Grammar troll, I think.

[–]gomphus 0 points1 point ago

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Connoisseur of marijuana cigarette assembly, I think.

[–]theartofrolling 0 points1 point ago

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I'm no troll, I'm just keen on proper grammar and fancy words; like pertain.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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... nice try.

[–]txcapricorn 0 points1 point ago

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...didn't you just seriously fuck up that sentence? Shouldn't it be: "I'm not a troll; I'm just keen on proper grammar and fancy words, like pertain."

[–]cscott5288 1 point2 points ago

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Yeah 'like pertain' is a dependent clause. Therefore it cannot be separated by a semicolon. Just saying. Perhaps not as keen on English as we thought.

[–]deanreevesii 0 points1 point ago

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Lucifer =/= Satan

[–]weaponode 0 points1 point ago

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Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

[–]cityfires 0 points1 point ago

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"And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light." -2 Corinthians 11:14

So Paul claims that Satan at least appears as an angel. The Isaiah passage also contributes to that.

All things considered, there is very little ELSE that the Bible claims Satan to be, besides a fallen angel.

[–]orzamil 0 points1 point ago

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Satan was never mentioned as an angle[sic] in the Bible

But he was an angel.

Hi, I'd like to point out your inconsistency. You say that the Bible, the word of God and how he has spoken to Man, does not mention that Satan was an angel.

However you then claim that Satan was an Angel.

How do you know?

[–]DarrelSirens 3 points4 points ago

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I used the word "angle" mocking the guy I was commenting to, who made a typo.

[–]orzamil 0 points1 point ago

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Oh, silly me. I thought you just typo'd again XD

Carry on good sir!

[–]rawbeef64 0 points1 point ago

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We all know that the current Bible is just a compilation of various books with various origins. The selection process was made some time ago, to give the Bible some consistency. There's also some juicy apocrypha chapters, for those interested in old judaic myths.

[–]myztry 0 points1 point ago

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I think that's the Brothers Grimm tales...

[–]frankyb89 0 points1 point ago

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Wasn't it at the council of Nicea or something that they decided what went in there. I don't know why but I remember a history teacher stressing the importance of something to do with Nicea in reference in Christianity.

[–]mutcy -3 points-2 points ago

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Satan was never mentioned as an angle in the Bible.

[–]nanney 7 points8 points ago

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'morning Angle.

[–]mutcy 1 point2 points ago

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morning Deer!

[–]napkin_man 0 points1 point ago

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Morning poo is ew.

[–]synoptyc -2 points-1 points ago

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He's never mentioned as an angel in the Bible, either.

[–]irobeth 0 points1 point ago

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Are angels even subject to a requirement of salvation? For all we know, conditional condemnation is something unique to human souls and the angels condemned themselves during rebellion.

[–]thatguyfromcanada 0 points1 point ago

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So much exegesis. I thought I was done with you! Fuck hermaneutics too! /catholicschoolreligionessays

[–]infernix -1 points0 points ago

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Actually the story of the lost son returning to his father in the bible is in reference to satan. The ultimate purpose of all life is to return to the source, hence the return of the fallen one to the father. So he can be redeemed.

But on many occasions, references to satan point not to the person lucifer, but the nature of sin (or evil if you will) itself.

[–]raouldukeesq -2 points-1 points ago

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I think lots of Christians routinely pray for Satan.

[–]ddsoren 9 points10 points ago

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[–]cafezinho 14 points15 points ago

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Wilford Brimley + Colonel Sanders + Albert Einstein = Mark Twain

[–]Osiris32 15 points16 points ago

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Or, hyper-intelligent, diabetic chickens.

[–]floatablepie 0 points1 point ago

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Now I'm just a simple hyper-chicken from a backwoods asteroid (with diabetes)...

[–]micah1_8 2 points3 points ago

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Now I'm just a simple hyper-chicken from a backwoods asteroid (with diabetus)...

FTFY

[–]cpeguy 5 points6 points ago

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The classical answer to "shall one pray for the repent of fallen angels?" is negative because pure spirits cannot possibly repent.

The theological argument is roughly:

To repent is to change one's decision based on further examination. Since angels have an immediate and comprehensive knowledge, any decision they make is definitive.

So when satan prefered his own angelic nature to the divine one he did it in total knowledge/liberty.

From St Thomas "Summa Theologica Ia" about the demon's obstinacy of will: http://www.ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa/FP/FP064.html#FPQ64A2THEP1

[–]cityfires 0 points1 point ago

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Well formed response. Thank you. =]

[–]waveflyer92 4 points5 points ago

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Find a copy of No. 44, the Mysterious Stranger!

Great last work of Twain's.

[–]Creeves 2 points3 points ago

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[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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It was his last work? Damn, that was some fine writing.

[–]forresale 0 points1 point ago

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"Letters from the Earth" collection has some excellent points as well.

[–]lysa_m -1 points0 points ago

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Really? I mean, it started out great, but it devolved in to some of the tritest solipsistic drivel I have ever come across. It's my single least favorite piece of writing by Mark Twain.

[–]megamin 8 points9 points ago

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I actually have : /

[–]CaveatLusor 6 points7 points ago

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Heard a great idea today, Satanism is the best religion ever,

cause if you screw up, you go to Heaven

[–]Mickey_Malthus 2 points3 points ago

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Um. . . Mick jagger?

[–]Cunt_Destoroyah 1 point2 points ago

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I did a few times when I was a kid.

[–]hogiewan 1 point2 points ago

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I know this is setting me up for a lot of questions and random BS, but I am a Christian; I have prayed for Satan.

[–]Giant_fish_bones 1 point2 points ago

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Mark Twain - Golf is a good walk spoiled

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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I actually got detention in 3rd grade of a catholic school for asking why we don't pray for the devil if hes just an angel that sinned. yeay catholic school.

[–]CHAINSAW_GUTSFUCK 3 points4 points ago

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I pray satan.

PRAY SATAN

WORSHIP SATAN

SATAN SATAN

[–]joeknowswhoiam 1 point2 points ago

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Well you pray him, but not not for him, so Twain is still right.

[–]CHAINSAW_GUTSFUCK 0 points1 point ago

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Yes, I understood the quote. At least he is getting SOME positive attention. Also, none of this is real.

[–]Hurrfdurf 1 point2 points ago

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But who prays for pictures of text posters? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one karma whore that needs it the most?

[–]foot-in-mouth 0 points1 point ago

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Interesting twain of thought.

[–]SpiderParrot 1 point2 points ago

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Really hit the mark. /thread

[–]SpiderParrot -1 points0 points ago

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Also, no clemency for any of you continuing it. Samuel.

[–]lysa_m 1 point2 points ago

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[insert obvious "Langhorne" pun here]

[–]chipnick87 1 point2 points ago

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[Insert pun from some obnoxious redditor who wants to get on the karma train without even having a good pun here]

[–]Venser 0 points1 point ago

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Jesus died for our sins. Therefore if you don't sin, Jesus died in vain.

[–]whats_up_doc 1 point2 points ago

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Who hasn't sinned?

[–]constantly_drunk 0 points1 point ago

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The point is that every sin that you can commit and don't is sacrificing Jesus' gift that we CAN sin and still go to heaven.

[–]warpus 0 points1 point ago

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Don't satanists pray for satan? Or do they just sacrifice virgin cats?

[–]khakimage 0 points1 point ago

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They pray to Satan, not for Satan. Or rather, they would if they were real.

[–]J2501 0 points1 point ago

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Jesus!

[–]theplimpplonkoffear 0 points1 point ago

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I upvoted and was number 666! I AM THE CHOSEN ONE.

[–]meeenglish 0 points1 point ago

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I just... never stop wanting to marry this man.

[–]Psilocyn 0 points1 point ago

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People unknowingly pray to Saturn all the time... Silly Twain.

[–]alexthehut 0 points1 point ago

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This ended up as the ending to one of my essay's in college. it killed.

[–]UILHOK 0 points1 point ago

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I was just thinking to myself that this semesters paper will all be chock full of reddit references. This will be one of them!

[–]turtle7113 0 points1 point ago

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Mark Twain is the fucking man

[–]GreyInkling[!] 0 points1 point ago

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Mark Twain is my favorite person. Ever.

[–]Aviator8989 0 points1 point ago

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or whom?

[–]topha13 0 points1 point ago

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The father of death metal.

[–]SocialAnimal 0 points1 point ago

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Im not 100% on this but I feel like I remember my youth pastors telling us to pray for satan's sins when I was really young. Not worshiping him or anything, just for his sins. I dunno. Seemed relevant.

[–]RitzNabisco 0 points1 point ago

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I don't pray but here is some karma

[–]SassyAngelDOTCOM 0 points1 point ago

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Can't.....bother.....to.....pray.....must......send.....10% of monthly earnings to a multi-billion dollar tax-exempt organization so that I won't go to hell for touching myself.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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Reminds me of something I read once:

People in the bible killed by God: 2.5 million People in the bible killed by Satan: 10

[–]beepup 0 points1 point ago

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yea, so the concept of sin is that it is a human thing. sin means basically anything that distances humans from God. it's not a list of bad things.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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I have.

[–]spambreakfast 0 points1 point ago

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I prayed for satan as a kid.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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I was a minister until they found a way to get rid of me. I'd ask the other preachers what would happen if we all prayed and fasted for the devil's salvaiton. That way we could solve all the problems of sin in the world. They responded by telling me it was impossible. I'd raised my voice and say WELL NOT WITH FAITH LIKE YALLS and storm out. cocksuckers

[–]ifiwasntintherapgame 0 points1 point ago

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GOD BLESS SATAN

[–]poopFaceMcGinty 0 points1 point ago

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he makes an interesting point. but what ego to presume he knows what every single person on planet earth has prayed about.

[–]dick_long_wigwam 0 points1 point ago

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I think I prayed for the devil when I was a little kid.

[–]latticusnon 0 points1 point ago

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Satan the devil Hell and Lucifer are all sometimes different and sometimes the same thing, and none of them are ever really mentioned in the Bible all that much.

[–]potsandpans 0 points1 point ago

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children

[–]Jcclark912 0 points1 point ago

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I think they call that Death Metal

[–]Draegur 0 points1 point ago

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Silly Twain!

You're not supposed to pray for him--

You're supposed to pray to him!

[–]whats_up_doc 0 points1 point ago

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Satan rebelled against God the father and his son, Jesus Christ, so fully and completely that he was cast out of Heaven. His rebellion was so complete that he became the father of all lies. He is known as the adversary. He rebelled so completely and fights so tirelessly against God that he will never be forgiven. There are things you can't be forgiven for and this is surely one of them. And he would not want to be forgiven. He rages against God. He wants to convert mankind away from the ways of God, to his ways, to show he is more powerful than God. This was his downfall. His ambition was such that he wanted to be God. And so he would never humble himself to the point of seeking forgiveness. His conversion to darkness is complete so don't waste your time praying for him. Pray for yourselves and your families that you can withstand his evil influence. He would love to convert everyone of us to his ways.

[–]KryptosV2 0 points1 point ago

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Why did God create such a dickhead then? Why create good and evil?

[–]whats_up_doc 1 point2 points ago

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God did not create the dickhead. He wasn't always a dickhead, he chose to become one. He was once like you and I, with freewill and the agency to choose good or evil. He was one of the greatest and strongest spirits in Heaven before he chose to rebel. Lucifer actually means "light bearer". He was full of light and truth before his ambition overtook him and he rebelled. God doesn't create evil - evil is created by men when they rebel against God. God gives men the choice to follow him or not, but he doesn't let them choose the consequences if they don't follow.

[–]yellowpigs 0 points1 point ago

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God should have known that he would become a dickhead, right? He pretty much allowed it.

[–]whats_up_doc 1 point2 points ago

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God knows how we will all turn out. He knows us better than we know ourselves. He won't prevent us from becoming what we want to become, be it good or evil. But he will reward or punish us accordingly. He allows all of us to make the choices we want to make but we will be judged for those choices.

[–]yellowpigs 1 point2 points ago

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He created everything, including evil. Before he made any other being, he had to have created evil. Why would he intentionally create the possibilty of evil. Just so we would have choice? Bullshit.

[–]constantly_drunk 0 points1 point ago

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If he knows all choices we are going to make and are predestined for, is it ever really a choice then? Aren't we all just following a divine path in that case?

And if that's the case, wouldn't the concept of free will be nullified since we're all following the plan God already created?

ie. At creation, he knows Person A will rebel against him, so he punishes him for the choice of rebelling. But it's not really a choice since if we're created by God to rebel, it's not a choice, it's just something that is predestined. So it's just punishment for the heck of it.

[–]cityfires 0 points1 point ago

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Any evil that has been allowed to exist (because of our willful rebellion, mind you) exists because God is patient with us. (Peter 3:9)

He deals with evil on a macro level. Not simply stopping evil in every small instance in which it pops up, but choosing to ultimately eliminate it. In doing that, he gives sinful people like us a chance to live and repent.

[–]yellowpigs 0 points1 point ago

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On a deeper level, he created the possibilty of evil existing. Why? Just to give us a choice?

[–]constantly_drunk 0 points1 point ago

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That's probably how God gets his rocks off.

[–]KryptosV2 0 points1 point ago

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How did men create evil? God was the one who defined what was right and wrong and if he's so omnipotent he would know what would happen.

[–]jeffAA 0 points1 point ago

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Not me.

[–]jf286381 -5 points-4 points ago

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Grammar Nazi here:

"the one sinner who needed it most?"

C'mon Mark.

[–]DeSaad -1 points0 points ago

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I used to pray for Satan a long time ago.

Then I read Garth Ennis' PREACHER, and a whole lot other anti-religion stuff and had a change of heart about everything.

[–]gandeldorf -1 points0 points ago

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This is assuming than an omnipotent omniscient being that controls everything from the infinitesimally small to the inconceivably large cares about prayers for one person

[–]CorleonisPX 1 point2 points ago

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It is illogical to place upon an omnipotent and omniscient being the limitation that it cannot care for every being in the entire universe more than any mortal being can care about anything, while still simultaneously exercising all that omnipotence and omniscience entail without any possibility of making a mistake or contradiction. None of it even takes any effort, at all.

[–]ajw827 -3 points-2 points ago

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Satan is pretty much a dick, but from the bible, I hear he's really hot, so...splooge.