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all 197 comments

[–]nermid 73 points74 points ago

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I had a lengthy discussion with a nun about Satan, once.

I asked if God would forgive Satan if the latter repented. She said God would, but that this would never happen. I asked why not. He has Free Will, right?

As it turns out, according to this nun, Free Will works differently for angels. Once they make a decision, they devote their whole being and existence to it. They can literally never change their minds. I didn't think to ask how he changed from good to bad, then. I believe I asked her why God would create beings who would exist like that, because it sounded cruel.

I honestly can't remember what she said to that. Wish I did. It's still a good question.

[–]Conator 94 points95 points ago

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As it turns out, according to this nun, Free Will works differently for angels. Once they make a decision, they devote their whole being and existence to it. They can literally never change their minds.

You talked to a good nun. She was trying to explain to what Saint Anselm, a doctor of the Church, taught.

I didn't think to ask how he changed from good to bad, then. I believe I asked her why God would create beings who would exist like that, because it sounded cruel. I honestly can't remember what she said to that. Wish I did. It's still a good question.

The Anselmian idea is that the angels were given a choice either to serve God, or serve themselves. Those that chose to serve themselves lost their ability to choose to serve God, because such a decision, after their choice to serve themselves, could only be a self-serving act.

[–]Lighterless 28 points29 points ago

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Whoa. I hadn't heard that one before. That's pretty clever.

[–]tyrghast 43 points44 points ago

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Cleverly circular, as is much Catholic and Christian lore. Either choice damns you to servitude, thus reinforcing the idea that you have no choice but to serve God and any other option is merely an illusion.

[–]emkat 8 points9 points ago

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How is that circular?

[–]tyrghast 47 points48 points ago

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The reasoning behind it is because of their choice they can't choose.

Either choice robs them of their free will. Thus free will is an illusion perpetrated by God and it returns you to the conclusion that because you can choose, you really truly can't.

[–]BoonTobias 7 points8 points ago

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I didn't choose this

[–]docwyoming 2 points3 points ago

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Free will must be illusionary in a universe with an omnipotent creator, as omnipotence obviates free will.

[–]FoundPie 8 points9 points ago

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Looks like we need to learn what circular logic means.

By the way, the discontinuing of free will after the use of it does not deny the fact that prior to the choice, the choice was made in free will.

[–]MeloJelo 7 points8 points ago

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Is it really free "will" if you only have the freedom to choose once in your whole life? Isn't it just one free choice?

Also, isn't God creating a being that will be a slave to the one and only "free" choice he or she has in all existence kind of a douche move?

[–]NoCowLevel 8 points9 points ago*

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That's really interesting. I really love religious texts. They're such an interesting piece of literary.

Edit: Thanks klapaucius :)

[–]klapaucius 2 points3 points ago

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That last sentence needs an overhaul to make sense in context.

[–]airedot 0 points1 point ago

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They're such an interesting part of literature. or They're such an interesting part of literary history.

Don't thank klapaucius just yet. >.>

[–]Synackaon 8 points9 points ago

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That was mental gymnastics of Olympic proportions...

[–]Coridimus 5 points6 points ago

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Theology is like masturbation: a self gratifying act but, ultimately, unsatisfying.

[–][deleted] ago*

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[deleted]

[–]Coridimus 1 point2 points ago

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Then to each their own.

[–]jerenept 1 point2 points ago

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To each his own.

[–]flamingspinach_ 6 points7 points ago

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Singular "they" has been in popular use for centuries, not only by many well-published writers but also by the population in general. No scientific-minded linguist would consider it an error.

[–]Dokterrock 4 points5 points ago

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Hers is better most of the time, AMIRITE

[–]nermid 7 points8 points ago

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(Anselm. She's the one who tried to pull the Ontological Proof on us, right? God must be because the convoluted way I define God includes that God must be?)

...So, whence human free will? Doesn't this at least imply that once an atheist has heard Pascal's Wager, they are intrinsically incapable of choosing to serve God?

[–]PortraitOfKarma 5 points6 points ago

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Not at all, in Catholic theology human and angelic will are different.

[–]nermid 8 points9 points ago

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In what sense?

If serving God out of fear for yourself isn't self-serving, I don't know what is. So, then, why wouldn't humans also lose the ability to choose to serve God?

Why screw the angels with the ghetto ass Will?

[–]PortraitOfKarma 19 points20 points ago

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Short answer: I believe that it has to do with the angels' possession of the Beatific Vision before their fall, it made the significance of their action decidedly more severe. From a more technical perspective, the difference results from angels being immortal and humans mortal. The division of "good/bad" angels basically had to be permanent so their existence as "blessed" or "wretched" entities would be properly absolute.

The easiest way to understand it is to contemplate the fact that angels don't die, therefore in order for their actions to have consequence, turning away from God became for them the equivalent of human death. After that point there was no turning back.

The long answer is an extremely complex response to a series of questions first attempted by Augustine in the beginning of the second half of De Civitate Dei, and examined in depth in De Libero Arbitrio. If you're really interested in an answer I would suggest reading those works. I'm much too tired to try to explain his ideas right now, sorry...

[–]MeloJelo 3 points4 points ago

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Human bodies aren't immortal, but according to Judeo-Christian theology our souls are, no? Those who turn away from God supposedly suffer for all eternity as angels do, so I see no need for something equivalent to death for angels.

The long answer is an extremely complex response to a series of questions first attempted by Augustine in the beginning of the second half of De Civitate Dei, and examined in depth in De Libero Arbitrio.

That extremely complex response, of course, is based not on evidence, but on myths (also not supported by any evidence) and mental gymnastics of a man who has already come to a conclusion before bothering to reason using obsevable truths from the reality that surrounds him. That said, I do find theological discussion and philosophy interesting, so those texts still might be worth a read.

[–]PortraitOfKarma 3 points4 points ago

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Those who turn away from God supposedly suffer for all eternity as angels do, so I see no need for something equivalent to death for angels.

That's what I'm trying to say, though. Humans have to endure eternal punishment for their actions after death (Of the body and possibly of the soul), and since angels don't die, they needed a different moment to be eternally judged for their transgression.

That extremely complex response, of course, is based not on evidence, but on myths (also not supported by any evidence) and mental gymnastics of a man...

Have you read Augustine? This is a sad way of looking at the work one of the most brilliant men in history... His writings constantly draw on "evidence" in the world and Scripture (yeah, laugh) to support his arguments. The man had an intense training in advanced rhetoric and argued with a skill and passion hardly rivaled since. Yes, there is "mental gymnastics", but what philosopher of the time hasn't been guilty of this? It's a testament to the difficulty of his project.

... who has already come to a conclusion before bothering to reason using obsevable truths from the reality that surrounds him.

No. He experimented with Eastern mysticism as a youth, fell into apostasy for a period, and converted to Christianity as a young man. He agonized over these questions and problems. He was not blind to the world, it just confirmed different beliefs in him than it does in you. Once again, if you haven't read him, I seriously recommend it, especially his Confessions.

[–]wilywampa 4 points5 points ago

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Yes, there is "mental gymnastics", but what philosopher of the time hasn't been guilty of this? It's a testament to the difficulty of his project.

There's a big difference between mental gymnastics tackling difficult real problems (human psychology, cosmology, etc.), and tackling imaginary problems that arise from believing the indefensible, i.e., apologetics.

No. He experimented with Eastern mysticism as a youth, fell into apostasy for a period, and converted to Christianity as a young man. He agonized over these questions and problems. He was not blind to the world, it just confirmed different beliefs in him than it does in you. Once again, if you haven't read him, I seriously recommend it, especially his Confessions.

You seem to have a giant boner for St. Augustine. Yes, he came to different conclusions than we atheists have. For example, he was able to defend torture of heretics using biblical support. This doesn't invalidate any of his arguments, but it certainly casts doubt on them by showing that he is morally bankrupt and twisted the words of the bible to fit whatever he wanted.

[–]PortraitOfKarma 1 point2 points ago

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You seem to have a giant boner for St. Augustine.

Haha yeah pretty much. And as I believe I mentioned above, there are a lot of things he said that I don't agree with, in fact I would probably say I reject his entire reading of the Bible... I don't think the man was infallible, I just hate seeing such a brilliant thinker and his accomplishments rejected out of hand because of certain beliefs he held, it's quite disheartening.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points ago

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How does Augustine possess any knowledge whatsoever about the differences between human and angel will? It would seem that information should come directly out of the Bible or amount to useless speculation.

[–]PortraitOfKarma 2 points3 points ago

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Like all ancient interpreters, he was very liberal in his reading of the Bible; allegorical reading was the norm in Classical Greek literature. Basically, he reads a lot into Scripture, making assumptions, playing language games, etc. He felt the Bible should be consistent and without contradiction so verses would be interpreted to achieve this.

Interesting fact: a large part of his argument as outlined in De Civitate Dei is based on a very allegorical reading of Genesis 1 where he views the creation of Light and Darkness as symbolizing the creation of the good and bad angels. So it can get pretty out there. The thing is though, Catholics believe there is another doctrinal source besides Sacred Scripture, which is Sacred Tradition. It has to do with apostolic succession and the like, but basically, Augustine, being a Doctor and Saint speaks with as much authority as the Bible does, as he was supposedly inspired through the Holy Spirit.

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points ago

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as he was supposedly inspired through the Holy Spirit.

Ya and so are the heaping dumps I take every couple days by the same argument.

[–]PortraitOfKarma 5 points6 points ago

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Oh, I thought you were asking a serious question and wanted to try to answer it for you. That statement is so immature, and ignorant I don't know what to say... I'm not religious but you must realize that if I was that would be pretty offensive. Why do you think it's okay to mock people of faith like this? People like you give atheists a very bad name. Ever wonder why so many people dislike /r/atheism and view it as a giant circlejerk? It's aggression like this, it barely hides a strong feeling of disdain and anger, it's very unappealing, and it actively inhibits other beliefs/opinions from being properly shared. Please do yourself a favor and stop being so close-minded.

Jesus, I thought I was being safe by throwing in the qualifier "supposedly", but no you just had to throw in your completely irrelevant, offensive insult. Good job.

[–]Zerba 2 points3 points ago

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He doesn't/didn't. He made crap up, or pulled from other made up works.

[–]PortraitOfKarma 2 points3 points ago

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It's unfortunate that the works of such a great mind are being dismissed by you so casually. I get that you don't agree with him (and neither do I quite often), but it seems a little ignorant to call them "crap". Also, if you read Augustine, you'd see that most pages have pretty full footnotes where he is incessantly referencing the Bible, contrary to your claim here.

[–]Zerba 2 points3 points ago

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Hence the "pulled from other made up works".

[–]nermid 0 points1 point ago

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Whoa. Looks like we stirred up a hornet's nest, man.

[–]flamingspinach_ 3 points4 points ago

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Anselm was male, btw.

[–]nermid 0 points1 point ago

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I'm not going to dwell on how I got that mixed up...

[–]mareacaspica 1 point2 points ago

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A thousand upvotes to you - this is the kind of thing we need to see more here.

[–]Dokterrock 0 points1 point ago

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Interesting. I live near San Anselmo, CA. Gonna have to see what those fuckers think.

[–]DiggerW 2 points3 points ago

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Cool. I live near San Francisco, gonna ask Francis.

[–]coontown_ -1 points0 points ago

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Your facts are pretty close to correct. You forgot to mention the Angel war. I am an expert on Angels - i have watched prophecy 1, 2, and 3.

[–]Lynx7 19 points20 points ago

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I was always told something slightly similar. Satan and the other angels have 'divine' knowledge of God, and as Lucifer made the decision to separate from God regardless of this divine knowledge, he cannot be redeemed (1)

  1. No source needed. Its religion, they make shit up every day so I can too.

[–]nermid 3 points4 points ago

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Something like that, yeah.

That Satan guy always gets the short end of the stick, but that "Let me buy you a beer to commiserate" feeling always seemed really out of place where the Vile Tempter was concerned...

I mean, I do have a tendency to feel bad for a lot of mustache-twirling villains, but this is extreme.

[–]mystikphish 2 points3 points ago

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Isn't this the reason that Constantine (comic/movie) wasn't allowed into Heaven? I had never considered this angle until seeing the movie...

After that, it occurred to me that wouldn't this apply to all the "prophets" as well? Don't they have a divine knowledge of God? Didn't Saul/Paul convert after God appeared to him?

[–]klapaucius 2 points3 points ago

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The movie Constantine has nothing to do with the comic Constantine, an English hard atheist who has literally told the devil to fuck off on several occasions.

[–]mystikphish 1 point2 points ago

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I realize that the movie Constantine is probably only loosely based on the comic Hellblazer(?)... My point was that the idea was presented in the movie, I've never read the comic.

Any comment on the idea?

[–]Bacchus_Embezzler 1 point2 points ago

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I thought Constantine (film) was going to be allowed into heaven, but upon realizing this Lucifer decided to not let him die in hopes that Constantine would mess up again.

[–]brianbrianbrian 0 points1 point ago

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That's at the end of the film. They're talking about the beginning.

[–]Lynx7 0 points1 point ago

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Constantine was not allowed in heaven because he committed a terrible sin in attempting to take his own life. Technically speaking he died, and to the God in the movie suicide was unforgivable.

Later on he earned his way back but the Devil prevented him from dying so that he could hopefully one day mess up again.

or something like that.

[–]Atheuz 2 points3 points ago

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As it turns out, according to this nun, Free Will works differently for angels.

I thought they had no free will at all, meaning God made Satan with that exact purpose.

[–]nermid 0 points1 point ago

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As if that makes the problem any better...

[–]Timmmmbob 1 point2 points ago

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As it turns out, according to this nun, Free Will works differently for angels. Once they make a decision, they devote their whole being and existence to it. They can literally never change their minds.

I love stuff like this. If you try to find out why she things that, the ultimate answer is that she completely made it up to solve the logical flaw you presented. The interesting thing is that it didn't come from the Bible, so it's not even something that was made up by someone else that she just happens to believe. Deep down she knows she made it up.

Christians seem to do that all the time. In fact I can remember doing it when I was little.

[–]bigon 0 points1 point ago

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Does angels have free will at all?

I thought that this was God greatest gift to Humanity?

[–]reedkeeper 0 points1 point ago

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I always thought they committed blasphemy of the holy spirit, that is the only unforgivable sin, and the only one that I've never heard a proper definition for.

[–]MrDelirious 21 points22 points ago

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If you haven't yet, go read "Letters From the Earth". It's wonderful.

[–]kmehta81 1 point2 points ago

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So I don't forget ...

[–]tellu2 1 point2 points ago

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http://reddit.honestbleeps.com/ download that...it allows you to save comments as well as a bunch of other awesome stuff...unless you were making a reference and I just don't get it...in which case. Carry on.

[–]zyrtsuryu 160 points161 points ago*

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I honestly used to, when I was a child and fed into Christianity's bullshit. I prayed that God could take my soul if it meant the Devil could be saved (and, though that, the whole world).

Pretty noble shit, right?

My dad - the 'head of the household'? His response?

"No! That means the devil's got you!!"

So glad to be out from under the mind control that is Christianity and religion in general.

TL;DR Used to pray for Satan's salvation. Now a freethinking atheist. Not a coincidence.

[–]IslamIsTheLight 38 points39 points ago

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Upvoted. Did the same thing as a kid. Never told anyone, though.

[–]ATPthe2nd 26 points27 points ago

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I really thought i was the only one until you 2 came along, damn i love reddit

[–]embrigh 22 points23 points ago

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Atheists: People who used to pray to God to forgive Satan. (not all inclusive of course)

I did the same as well.

[–]BoonTobias 11 points12 points ago

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Interestingly enough, I met by best friend who's an atheist at a mosque about 19 years ago, we were sent there to study the koran. The first thing he said to me was "Yo, did you play that new game mortal kombat?" I was a new immigrant at that time so I asked him, no what's morrow comeback?

[–]johnnymo87 1 point2 points ago

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I grew up in the middle east and I played mortal combat all the time on my friends sega. Where are you from?

[–]swuboo 8 points9 points ago

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The concept of eternal damnation bugged me, since I figured even the worst crime will be atoned for eventually, right? Punishing souls over and over for millions of years after they'd already been punished enough just seemed evil to me.

So I prayed for the eventual abolition of Hell so that no one would receive infinite punishment for finite sin.

I kept it up until I was ten or eleven, years after I'd concluded there probably wasn't anyone listening to me. Pascal's Wager, I suppose.

[–]vanostran 1 point2 points ago

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Try billions of years.

[–]swuboo 6 points7 points ago

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We're talking about the infinite. Billions is neither more nor less appropriate than millions, so I don't think your correction is justified.

[–]LAT3LY 6 points7 points ago

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Both of you shut up about technicalities, enjoy the similarities between we few redditors, and have an upvote.

[–]vanostran -3 points-2 points ago

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it was a joke, fool. There is no G-d, but if there was we don't know he'd make time infinite or not.

[–]swuboo 0 points1 point ago

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it was a joke, fool.

Doesn't take much before you bust out the ad hominem, does it? Take it easy, buddy.

[–]vanostran 0 points1 point ago

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that was too. Foool.

[–]Wyndikan 0 points1 point ago

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Same here. A couple times.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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I thought the same, until you three. My goal was to save Satan and thus reverse original sin somehow. My dad told me I couldn't do that.

[–]zyrtsuryu 0 points1 point ago

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There has to be an anime about this somewhere!

[–]whoami9 0 points1 point ago

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Well from your point of view at the time, it was a genuinely nice thing to do.

[–]IslamIsTheLight 0 points1 point ago

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I thought so. I thought the same thing as Twain (though I hadn't known Twain's feelings on the matter at the time). Basically, who ever prayed for the devil?

Of course now I know the devil and the whole thing is nonsense to being with, but still. No one ever prayed for the devil's forgiveness (so far as I knew).

[–]Lighterless 9 points10 points ago

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Same here. My parent's were more freaked out and didn't really know how to handle it. I prayed for Satan a couple of times on my own because they didn't want to. They said something along the lines of " You can't pray for him because he's pure evil. God made Satan to tempt us so that it'd be harder to get into heaven." The sect that I was involved in believed that the point of existence was God showing the angels about free will.

[–]fieryfire 1 point2 points ago

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SDA?

[–]rant_casey 11 points12 points ago*

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I was catholic for 16 years, this thought never occurred to me. it was not until now that i realized how thoroughly i could be brought up to arbitrarily resent an alien entity.

*edit: i can't stress enough how useful this argument is going to be for me in reasoning with my family and in bringing up my children. thank you. a thousand times.

[–]crs76 9 points10 points ago

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Upvote for moral fortitude

[–]LORDJEW_VAN_CUNTFUCK 4 points5 points ago

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I have a similar story.

After seeing the episode of the Simpsons where Bart sells his soul I tried doing the same thing at school the next day. I can't remember if I actually got any money out of it but I know there was a lot of soul-swapping and paper-eating.

Basically the same thing, right?

[–]Bachmed 5 points6 points ago

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I used to pray that Satan could have my soul if he gave me money. If he was real I'd still do it cause I don't give a fuck, but like many I became an atheist because Christianity disgusts and angers me. That and I feel that we should have evolved intellectually passed worshipping gods decades ago.

[–]Verun 3 points4 points ago

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I actually used to ask Satan to lose weight--since god never answered my prayers on my body hatred issues, I figured I'd try the other guy that everyone I knew believed in.

Didn't work either. Go figure.

[–]James-Cizuz 3 points4 points ago

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Dude, I used to be 290. Smoke pot and get a DDR pad, 8 months later I lost 90 pounds.

[–]Verun 0 points1 point ago

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But.....cannabis is Satan's weed! Weight can only be lost with righteous fasting and prayer!

I'm actually looking into hiking, not to lose weight, but because I love the gadgetry involved, and I enjoy the outdoors and things like fishing, starting fires, etc. Plus the people who camp regularly are the most chill people ever. Also I'm really into abandoned towns and stuff, and usually you have to hike to see the coolest ones.

And really I only wanted to lose weight at the time because I was told that god loved thin people better. Most local churches have some sort of prayer and fasting weight loss group bundled in with their weekly meetings around here. I've had aunts go from 200lbs to 110lbs and back up and back down again--all trying to please god. Several of them have heart troubles due to their yo-yo-ing weights. Ahhh, the things people will do to gain favor with god.

[–]James-Cizuz 0 points1 point ago

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I was always kinda small, but when I turned 13 I got up to 190, then was like 240 by 19 because I got lazy. Has nothing to do with my self, just lazy. Got up to 290 at age 21 and said fuck it might as well drop some weight.

[–]mophair 9 points10 points ago

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tl:dr I tried to become a Satanist and when that didn't work, an atheist.

[–]HalfRations 0 points1 point ago

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Really? If he was real you would sell your soul for money? I don't believe any of the shit but if it was proven to me beyond a doubt I would definitely not sell my soul for money.

[–]chazysciota 0 points1 point ago*

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The former seems like a pretty poor reason to become an atheist. The latter seems off too, but in the opposite direction.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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hehe, I did it too!

[–]SecularMantis 32 points33 points ago

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He IS a fallen angel, after all. You'd think, given the theme of redemption in Christianity, that many people would pray for him to be saved. Most I know just say "LOL FUCK THAT FAGGOT DEVIL" though

[–]king_of_the_universe 16 points17 points ago

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Ye, actually, when I watched the South Park movie a few years ago, and Satan did his "I wanna live up theeeeeeeere" bit, my eyes were slightly wet.

[–]SecularMantis 2 points3 points ago

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That is hands down the best song in the whole movie. "Where babies burp and flowers bloom"

[–]eigentensor 2 points3 points ago

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:(

[–]OldScratch 15 points16 points ago

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This is a nice sentiment, and I'd be the first to admit I was flattered when I heard good ol' Sam had said it, but to be honest it's just as well if you don't bother. First, as I'm sure you've noticed, prayer doesn't actually do anything. So it's not like praying for me would get me home even if I wanted to go, which I do not. Second, I don't want to go home. At this point praying for my soul to go to heaven would be like praying for your father to get colon cancer or something! If I go there I have to serve, and I think my opinions on that are on the record at this point.

Don't pray at all. Work to make your world a better place. Live happy lives and stand on your own two feet. That's all I ever wanted for you people since the moment I learned you'd have the "blessing" of sentience. The fact that your creator reacted the way he did when I proposed this should distress you a little bit.

[–]spiritusmundi1 0 points1 point ago

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Upvote for originality and for cool screen name (I do so miss the old names).

[–]Tabarnaco -2 points-1 points ago

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instead of at least showing good intentions by praying, save your time and insult your catholic friends on facebook! don't forget to post screenshots here 3 seconds after your last reply for karma.

[–]OldScratch 1 point2 points ago

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Oh, honey. Did He make reading comprehension a deadly sin recently?

[–]OtherSideReflections 26 points27 points ago*

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"But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven." Matthew 5:44-45

Asking Christians why they don't love and pray for Satan, then citing that verse, is sure to produce some spectacular cognitive dissonance and rationalizations.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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Satan isn't our enemy. He's God's enemy.

[–]elastic-craptastic 8 points9 points ago

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This is the first time I have seen this quote. Is this really a Twain quote or is it one of those;

"You can't believe any quote you read internet" - Abe Lincoln

??

[–]darkon 4 points5 points ago

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It's a real quote, or at least a paraphrase, from his autobiography. I doubt it's in the first volume of the recently-released material, but I think it's in the material edited by Nederer. It's taken from a story about his mother. She was so tender-hearted that some of friends claimed she would defend the Devil Himself if need be. The test was made: one evening in her presence, the assembled company heaped calumny after calumny upon the Devil, until finally she spoke up. If I recall correctly, the quote in that image is her voice, defending Satan.

[–]CryBabyRape 2 points3 points ago

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No way, Abe really said that? Smart guy.

[–]shadowlands339 3 points4 points ago

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The buddhists prayed for bin laden when he was killed

[–]mexicodoug 1 point2 points ago

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The wolves howled and the dogs bayed and the coyotes yipped as the moon shone down upon a planet condemned, this time, by humans to yet another round of mass extinction.

[–]snouzer 5 points6 points ago

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There is only one person who will continually pray for Satan: MOREL OREL

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points ago

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I really doubt many people actually believe in Satan as a real entity/"person." He's just the bogeyman and scapegoat people invented so they could have somebody to blame shit on, and more importantly the nemesis that every good fictional character needs.

[–]danxmason 6 points7 points ago

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[–]ungolden_glitter 2 points3 points ago*

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I watched that episode... Every time she said the other family's house was "dark-sided", I kept wondering if she found Darth Vader in a closet and they just edited the scene out.
Seriously, though, she always reminded me a bit of my friend's mom who wouldn't actually let him be friends with me when we were 14 because I was a girl and an atheist. She threw a huge tantrum a lot like that the day I showed up at their door to drop off some homework when he had the flu.

[–]SirShanksalot 1 point2 points ago

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Not sure if really intense christian, or one of the most insane people I have ever seen. ಠ_ಠ

[–]eigentensor 1 point2 points ago

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is there a difference?

[–]DangerousPlane 2 points3 points ago

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She's just afraid. Obviously she's mentally unstable, but we're all animals. Our need for religion is a natural adaptation to help us cope with things we can't understand. Not everyone has the opportunity to learn about physics and astronomy. I can't believe I'm defending this woman but I actually pity her because she is obviously terrified. Apparently she had never interacted with non-christians, which is a result of a lack of effort on both sides.

Reach out to your fellow humans.

[–]SirShanksalot 1 point2 points ago

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Never! I would rather criticize them over the internet! But seriously it is a little scary to know that, even if she is acting it up, there are people out there who are actually like this.

[–]otakuman 0 points1 point ago

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Or paid actors.

[–]kaiizzle -1 points0 points ago

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Sometimes, those characteristics are not mutually exclusive.

[–]Hindu_Wardrobe 0 points1 point ago

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DORK-SIDED

[–]OhTheDerp 6 points7 points ago

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Christians should believe in Satan as a being/entity/person since he's a pretty major figure when it comes to Christianity. Not believing in him and being a Christian seems pretty stupid.

I have a weird suspicion that this will cause a major downvote event upon me.

[–]Coridimus -2 points-1 points ago

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Just BEING a Christian seems pretty stupid, so lets leave it at that.

[–]Xeno234 1 point2 points ago

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Naive.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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No, I just meant to say there are a lot of "religious" people who don't. Plenty do, but those would be the more hardcore ones, whereas tons and tons of the "moderates" don't give a single thought to Satan as a real person. The extent of a LOT of people's beliefs (usually educated people) involves saying, "sure of course I believe in God," and identifying with it culturally, having been brought up to believe. But if you could examine their innermost thoughts and see whether they give serious credence to Satan being an actual guy trying to cause mayhem, I think you'd be surprised at the huge amount of people who don't even go that far with their beliefs. These are people who realize there's a lot of sketchiness in organized religion but don't want to take the step of throwing it all out and calling themselves atheists. There are a lot of closet atheists in pews as it stands, so of course there'd be even more who don't accept the idea of Satan, regardless of what they publicly subscribe to as a matter of convenience.

Source: knowing a lot of religious people

[–]lionelboydjohnson 0 points1 point ago

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Keyser Söze totally agrees.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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Probably a great reference but mind explaining? I've heard of Keyser Soze

[–]lionelboydjohnson 0 points1 point ago

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Go watch "The Usual Suspects", great movie.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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lol okay, can you just explain the reference briefly though? Just wanted to know whether I was being dissed/agreed with/laughed at/some mixture of the above

[–]toobias 3 points4 points ago

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Here, the famous quote: "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."

But seriously, go watch the movie now before someone spoils the ending for you.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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Impossible to explain without spoilers :)

[–]DrSmoke 0 points1 point ago

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Try visiting the south. Everyone here believes in that whacko shit.

[–]DaHozer 2 points3 points ago

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Fuck. My mind was just blown.

Slightly related: That man was truly one of the greatest minds and wits ever born.

[–]Phersu 2 points3 points ago

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I think many (unorthodox) believers in history prayed for Satan.

Origen believed that everybody would eventually be forgiven at the end of this eon, including Satan who would "see the light".

The Yezidi sect of Shia Muslims believes roughly that their equivalent of Satan (Melek Taus) has already had his redemption and is now God's first Lieutnant.

[–]Sacharified 2 points3 points ago

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I misread 'Satan' as 'Santa' and was really confused for several minutes.

[–]otakuman 2 points3 points ago

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Catholic doctrine explanation: Satan is irredeemable. He's already in hell, unrepentant.

(I still get shivers from the idea that one cannot repent, even if already in hell. But thankfully, I already finished digesting the idea that the abrahamic God is 100% fake)

[–]Kinbensha 1 point2 points ago

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Why would you pray for Satan? He doesn't exist.

[–]takatori 1 point2 points ago

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And whoever you're praying to does?

[–]darktype 1 point2 points ago

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...What?

[–]Kinbensha 0 points1 point ago

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I don't pray. It's delusional.

[–]Coridimus 1 point2 points ago

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Incomplete quote, I might add. That said, the spirit of the quote remains intact.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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Is that an actual quote or did Oscar Wilde do it?

[–]darkon 1 point2 points ago

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Real quote. See my earlier reply to someone else.

[–]fromkentucky 1 point2 points ago

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Stolen.

[–]cyco 1 point2 points ago

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Doesn't Paradise Lost take a pretty sympathetic view of Satan?

[–]Martel732 1 point2 points ago

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I actually just started reading the book so I can't comment on the later chapters. But, the parts that take place before Satan travels to Earth makes him seem very reasonable. Satan seemed to mainly promote freedom versus the authoritarian God. He listens and considers the views of his subordinates before acting. Overall Milton's Satan is a much more sympathetic than the traditional depictions of Satan.

[–]Naeddyr 1 point2 points ago

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Satan and Gods are in cahoots anyhow. The whole "adversary" thing is just a Flanderized smoke-screen for their whole good cop-bad cop trick, the "Job con".

[–]Igtheo 1 point2 points ago

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Fact: as a young Catholic boy, I actually prayed for Satan. I also talked to him at least as much as I talked to God.

[–]darkangelx 0 points1 point ago

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funny how they both sound like the voice in your head...

[–]Igtheo 0 points1 point ago

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They didn't talk much, actually.

Or...at all.

Except when I started masturbating. Then Satan became a Snidely Whiplash-like villain.

[–]GrotesDZs 1 point2 points ago

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Uh...apparently Mr. Twain has never heard of The mother fucking Rolling Stones!..."sympathy for the devil"

[–]Coridimus 10 points11 points ago

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He was a little ahead of their time. Just a smidge.

[–]monkeymarine 1 point2 points ago

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I was so bad at praying. I would try thinking of legitimate stuff that I would like to see. Then I would start to daydream. Then I'd zone out and then it was, "Oh, time to stand up already? Ok."

[–]brianbrianbrian 0 points1 point ago

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I wobbled between imagining fucking the hot girls in their pretty Sunday dresses, wondering what all those lumps and colors on the old people were, and praying that I could experience the former as soon as possible, and avoid experiencing the latter.

I also used to have this fantasy of the entire world ending while we were in church, such that the church and the graveyard around it were floating in space with no more Earth around them. I made intricate plans on how this society would function, because obviously God would sustain gravity, light, and oxygen for us. We were in a church, how could he not?

[–]markthegoth 1 point2 points ago

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Why not Zoidberg?

[–]sayrith 0 points1 point ago

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hes got a cool 'stache

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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Whoa...

[–]redditforgotmeagain 0 points1 point ago

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Well, props for him for bringing it up. It would have been nice if he followed through on that though.

[–]ulrikft 0 points1 point ago

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Didn't Twain read Lucifer by Carey?

[–]AdonisBucklar 0 points1 point ago

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I think he tried but gave up when it turned into a book about 12 year old girls.

[–]ulrikft 1 point2 points ago

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Well, it does not really turn into that :/

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]AdonisBucklar 0 points1 point ago

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I guess you didn't want to talk about your recent problems :S My concern was sincere and genuine, I wish you were more willing to let people help you.

Anyway, as sad as this behavior makes you seem, please do keep following me around and linking that post - I'm enjoying more and more upvotes and you're digging yourself deeper into that pit. Nobody else seemed to think I was even remotely upset and a fair few people seem to agree with me :S Is this what people call 'projecting'?

[–]Skreech2011 0 points1 point ago

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Can someone elaborate please?

[–]Merit 0 points1 point ago

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In Christianity there are themes of forgiveness, and the awfulness of being far from God. There is also the tendency for Christians to pray for the forgiveness, of themselves or others, of their transgressions against God. Despite this, Lucifer is rarely 'prayed for', despite being the 'furthest from God'. It therefore calls into question how serious those individuals, or the Christian God themselves, are about forgiveness and empathy.

[–]tswarre 0 points1 point ago

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Went to Twain's Billiards and Tap in Atlanta last night

I highly recommend it. Best theme restaurant ever.

[–]Chrystine 0 points1 point ago

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I was walking with one of my religious friend. I stated something like "why did God have to create mosquitoes?" She said "don't say that everything he created is perfect and we shouldn't question him". Then I asked "But didn't he create lucifer?" She answered "you got a point.."

[–]GINGster 0 points1 point ago

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Man has been here 32,000 years. That it took a hundred million years to prepare the world for him is proof that that is what it was done for. I suppose it is, I dunno. If the Eiffel Tower were now representing the world's age, the skin of paint on the pinnacle-knob at its summit would represent man's share of that age; and anybody would perceive that the skin was what the tower was built for. I reckon they would, I dunno. ~ Mark Twain, from his essay "was the world made for man."

The numbers are off but his point still stands.

[–]old_snake 0 points1 point ago

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lol. theology is flawed.

[–]TheAlmightyHelmet 0 points1 point ago

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I wrote a song one time called Satan's Christmas List. It talked about how no one really ever cared enough to get Satan a present on Christmas. Maybe some kindness would turn him around, eh?

[–]themuffins 0 points1 point ago

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[–]Amytherocklobster 0 points1 point ago

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Well.. If you're going to close your eyes, talk in your head and pretend some all power being is listening.. I probably wouldn't bother with Satan either :p

I'd be all like I want a ninja turtle body guard or something xD

[–]Digimonisbetter 0 points1 point ago

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I prayed for him as a child, until I understood what nermid said.

[–]topicality 0 points1 point ago

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I realize this will probably be buried.

But if I remember correctly Saint Gregory of Nyssa was well known for spending his time praying for the devil. I also remember hearing that many of the Russian Orthodox theologians nurse a hope that everyone would be saved and none damned.

[–]stringerbell -2 points-1 points ago

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'But who [does something pointless] for [someone who doesn't exist]? Who in 18 centuries, has had the common humanity to [do something pointless] for [someone who doesn't exist] that needed it most?...'

Kind of loses all its poignancy when you add in facts and reality, doesn't it?...

[–]idiotthethird 2 points3 points ago

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The question is clearly not directly at atheists, but people who believe in the power of prayer. Specifically Christians, given Satan is a Christian belief.