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all 99 comments

[–]This_isgonnahurt 29 points30 points ago

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I believe History shows that many reasonable and logical people have also been religious.

[–]AduroNox 14 points15 points ago

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Contrary to popular belief, science, reason, and religion are not mutually exclusive.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points ago

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Yes, but only in the same way that donating to charity, fighting in defense of education, and being a child molester are not mutually exclusive.

[–]chingsue -2 points-1 points ago

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HAHAHAHAHA

[–]harmonicoasis -2 points-1 points ago

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Yet faith has been set up as the opponent to reason, because tenacious people will cling to their faith even in the face of an incredibly well-reasoned argument

[–]Anomalee 1 point2 points ago

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Quite.

[–]tragicjones -1 points0 points ago

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On the face of it, this is an indisputable fact.

But I see the implication that reasonable and logical people being religious infers that being religious is logical or reasonable (if I'm reading you incorrectly, then the rest of this post is moot). This is not so.

Many reasonable and logical people have been bigots and sexists; some have owned slaves; some pioneered and practiced barbaric medicine or alchemy; some have held pseudo-scientific beliefs, or simply incorrect scientific ones. Some have formulated widely-accepted proofs for the existence of God that most modern thinkers, religious or otherwise, would find almost comically weak. These are unreasonable things done by reasonable people; their lack of awareness can sometimes be said to excuse them from blame, but it doesn't make their actions or thoughts reasonable.

The consequences of your implication (again, if read correctly) are unpalatable to say the least, if we take it to an obnoxious extent:

  • The things that reasonable and logical people do or believe are reasonable and logical.
  • Aristotle was reasonable and logical.
  • Aristotle was a slave-owner and believed women to be poorly-formed men, ill-suited to tasks requiring reason.
  • Therefore, owning slaves and the belief that women are poorly formed men, ill-suited to tasks requiring reason, are reasonable and logical.

Reason is mitigated by context. One of the most important things history can teach us is that people can be reasonable and logical and also ultimately incorrect, due to biases, worldview, or just flaws in their method or reasoning.

I'm not arguing that religion is inherently unreasonable, that's a whole other debate that is being butchered taking place here. I just want to point out that the above oft-used reply to an assertion such as House's is highly problematic, and it doesn't add to the argument in any meaningful way (if anything, it discredits your position).

[–]This_isgonnahurt -1 points0 points ago

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I think you are reading what I wrote incorrectly. Allow me to clarify.

The pic was of House saying "if you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people". I interpreted this as meaning "those people who are religious are not interested in reason (and by extensions logic or science). They cannot be swayed by logic or reason, this trait they have is why they are religious".

I pointed out that many of humanity's greatest minds have been religious individuals, in the hope of showing that humans are complex beings capable of operating at a logical level as well as a spiritual one.

I wasn't trying to make a comment on the reasonableness of religion, but rather the silliness of commenting on someone's intelligence based on their spiritual beliefs.

[–][deleted] -5 points-4 points ago

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I believe History shows that many people were reasonable and logical despite also having been religious.

FTFY

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]OttoBismarck 0 points1 point ago*

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Replace "religion" with "the state" in that post, and you get the same thing...

[I also believe history shows that many unreasonable and malicious people have specifically used the state to push their ideas on people.

Sure; there are many ways to control large groups of people, but by using the state as a backbone people can be misled and told that they will be punished for speaking out or disobeying "The State's Law".

I have no problem with people having their own beliefs; I just want the Statist crowd to realize that their ideology should have absolutely no impact on the lives of others. ]

People that use violence under the name of religion are doing so because they think they are doing what is right and moral. People who use violence under the name of the state are also doing so because they think they are doing what is right and moral. Your good intentions mean nothing to the people who disagree with you about what is best and are threatened with violence for not wanting to comply.

[–][deleted] ago*

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[deleted]

[–]ufluent 0 points1 point ago

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I don't think he meant that Religion and Government are both negative things, but can both be used in a negative way. Neither are inherently bad or good, but rather tend to mirror the characteristics of the people running them.

[–]OttoBismarck -1 points0 points ago

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This is pretty much what I meant.

I do find trouble in the inherent violence behind government action, but at the same time I do view that certain things (very few in number) are important enough to have such force imposed. This part is just personal opinion though; you are right about what my point was with my previous post.

[–]OttoBismarck -1 points0 points ago*

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I meant it more as a comment that history showing "many" of such bad things is in no way a condemnation of everyone that holds that mentality in its very broad sense (such as just saying "religious" or "statist"). That was really my only point there. You pretty much have to be cautious about any sort of group-mentality when it comes to control over aspects of others' lives.

Personally, I'm minarchist. I believe in a level of government, but a very minimalist one because I always have it in the back of my mind that pretty much any action I deem "worthy" of government involvement is essentially me advocating that something is important enough to threaten people for. Considering I'm in no way some beacon of perfect judgement, I would prefer a system that made any changes or increases in power be incredibly difficult, requiring much more than simply a two-thirds vote (such as changing our constitution would be).

Of course, that's asking me about ideal state. In terms of realism, and the present day, I simply argue for changing the elements I find particularly damaging, in a way that does not cause undue suffering to those who never created the system to begin with.

[–]jrryrchrdsn 8 points9 points ago

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Now you're worshiping the things that a fictional character says?

[–]polyparadigm 8 points9 points ago

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You can't reason with TV viewers. Otherwise, no one would watch TV.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points ago

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Worship is a pretty idiotic word fror what you're trying to describe.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]chingsue 4 points5 points ago*

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Reasoning is fundamentally incompatible with religion, if you ask me. Unless you're referring to the "ontological argument" or something similar (which is generally assessed as fallacious). Just review the basics of the philosophy of science (I know I am comparing science to logic, but bear with me): anything that is untestable and, therefore, not falsifiable is pseudoscientific and not based on reason. The only recourse for a religious person is faith. I am not morally opposed to faith, but it is certainly not equatable with reason. Edit: for the people downvoting me here, please explain why.

[–]polyparadigm 1 point2 points ago

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Just review the basics of the philosophy of science

You mean the part where any scientific paradigm is stubbornly defended by those who have developed its requisite habits of thought, even in the face of repeatable anomalies?

Logic works only from axioms, and axioms aren't chosen rationally. Instead, they seem to be culturally inherited and subjected to selection pressures. Many scientific sets of axioms aren't compatible with many religious sets of axioms, once one works out the logic, but guess what: the axioms of Newtonian physics also aren't compatible with those of quantum mechanics, and neither of those are compatible with the axioms of general relativity.

Reasoning is fundamentally incompatible with religion, if you ask me.

Reasoning is fundamentally incompatible with any concise worldview which aspires to explain all known phenomena, whether that worldview invokes the supernatural or is strictly materialistic. Some religious worldviews do not claim to explain everything, and so have the potential to be reasonable.

[–]chingsue 0 points1 point ago

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I see this discussion descending quickly into an epistemological impasse. My argument is simply that in science, when something is theorized (like Newtonian physics, quantum mechanic, or general relativity) it is carefully considered and, most importantly, tested. Physically. Like experiments to prove relativity where scientists measured light bending around the sun during an eclipse. Whether this experiment was correct in an absolute sense is not relevant. But their method was logical and scientific as opposed to religious beliefs. Completely illogical aspects of religion are too often address with faith as a band-aid solution.

I don't believe I am saying anything controversial here. It just basic Khun, no? I must admit though, I haven't reviewed my philosophy textbooks in years hahah.

[–]polyparadigm -1 points0 points ago

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I see this discussion descending quickly into an epistemological impasse.

Let's try to avoid that.

I find quantum physics and evolutionary biology and modern cosmology to all be useful, and the arguments for them are convincing, verging on airtight. I also maintain a practice of the religion I was raised in (Christianity), and hold a faith, related to that religion, which I feel is reasonable.

Within the framework of Christianity, evidence against telos is anomalous. There are a lot of unreasonable Christians who try to extend Christianity in an effort to resolve that class of anomaly (Creation "Science"), but I don't think a literal interpretation of the Bible would make sense even if that effort succeeded.

Creation "Science" is much less respectable than efforts at a GUT, but I think they both have their roots in the same philosophical mistake: people refuse to make their peace with persistent anomalies, to regard them as natural boundaries to the applicability of a paradigm. Relativity applies most centrally to intense acceleration; quantum mechanics, to small amounts of energy; and most reasonable religions, to the relationship between humans and processes that occur over many lifetimes.

Some experiments in religion are akin to experiments in economics: they take many generations to carry out, and the most conclusive experiments tend to be the least ethical to carry out. But any reasonable religion will include the sort of falsifiability that Popper advocated, at least with regard to its core concerns: within my tradition, for example, the seventh chapter of Matthew outlines an empirical approach to Christianity: movements that produce discord and misery should be abandoned in favor of those that produce real good in the world.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points ago

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Blah blah blah blah I believe the earth is 6000 years old.

Well, I believe you're an idiot.

[–]polyparadigm 0 points1 point ago

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What are you doing?

I agree with you that people who think the Earth is 6000 years old are being idiots about it, and are missing the point of their own (my) religion.

I would also say that people who argue without understanding the other person's position are idiots. Especially when you are trying to claim the intellectual high ground.

I've never claimed to be a "young Earth" creationist, in the comment you misquoted or elsewhere. I think a good Christian is unlikely to attempt a literal interpretation of the Bible, because the same organizations pushing an anti-science agenda also tend to push an anti-social justice agenda along with it, in direct conflict to Jesus's positions on wealth and charity.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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So, basically, your thesis is that religion is all mumbo jumbo that is not to be taken seriously, and that is why it is compatible with reasoning?

[–]polyparadigm 0 points1 point ago

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No.

Creationism is not all there is to religion.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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So you contend that absolutely nothing in the bible that is supernatural occurred.

So what exactly is your religion?

[–]polyparadigm 0 points1 point ago

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I frame "supernatural" differently than most.

So what exactly is your religion?

In a nutshell:

  • Society tends to impose an identity on each of us, in a way that's divisive, miserable, and generally destructive; our own habits and the social niche we each inhabit conspire to maintain that identity
  • It's possible to build yourself a new self-image, but that process is pretty alien to typical habits of thought
  • Here are some methods, we meet on a regular basis to work through this and to support one another in more practical ways
  • Watch out: if this isn't making a positive change, you are probably being misled

Of course, all that is usually expressed in heavy-handed, domain-specific jargon, but IMHO these are the essentials of Christianity translated into non-Christian terms.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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What you are describing is not religion in the sense that any other person uses it.

While it may be a great way to discuss it for theoretical treatises, it is not useful on reddit when used in this way. But maybe I had you figured wrong, I am in a rush and did not have a chance to tihnk about what u wrote.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]chingsue 2 points3 points ago

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Fair enough. If I wasn't clear in my other post, I do respect the right to be religious. There just aren't enough religious people with the point of view you express here; namely, being open minded.

[–]castellammare -1 points0 points ago

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For the record, I consider myself religious and open-minded. I identify with the Catholic faith, but I believe gay marriage and abortion should be legal, that church and state should be completely separate, and that faith should give way to science (maybe I'm not explaining that right, but basically if 1000 years ago you wanted to believe in creationism, then fine. But now that evolution has all but been proven, your previous faith in something shouldn't block you recognizing that science has shown something contrary. Dinosaur bones are out there, the universe is expanding and the planet is getting warming; everyone should recognize it, there shouldn't be a debate when the science overwhelmingly points in one direction).

I think there are a lot of us that are open-minded, but we don't automatically identify ourselves as religious observers, so you don't recognize us as such. People in a thread who say, "Gay marriage is an abomination!" you can clearly recognize as religious and label them as such, but those who simply post "This is a fundamental right," it speaks not to their religion but to their social values, so since you find yourself on the same side, you self-identify with them and label them as "atheists" or whatever you choose to. I'm not saying you do this purposely; we all do it to some level on a subconscious level. How many times have we felt a connection to somebody for agreeing with a single comment that was said in a pointless thread, yet we do not really know anything about them besides the one issue?

[–]chingsue 0 points1 point ago

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Agreed. I know plenty of intelligent, ration, and progressive people that are also religious. In some cases I would even identify as religious! But a lot of the supernatural fiction associated with religion is harmful, as you've pointed out, and it often outweighs the good, well-meaning deeds done by other religious people. But if the harmful religious types were familiarized with logical open-minded thinking, I think the damage they do to their religion's reputation would be assuaged. I guess it's our job to educate them.

[–]castellammare -1 points0 points ago

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I don't really think its religions fault though; I think its the culture they grew up in. Somebody who grew up in rural Alabama and somebody like me who grew up in urban New York both read the same Bible; the fact are far away from each other in our social beliefs leads me to believe that there is something else that is causing it. Some people use religion as a crutch; just like coffee, drugs, alcohol, sex, etc. Either way, you are correct. In order to provide a better life for our children and (hopefully) a better future for our country (I don't mean to assume that you are in the United States, but I'm assuming that if you are not then you probably wouldn't want what is happening here to happen where you are) it is our duty to educate them in science and history. However, demeaning their beliefs is damaging to this goal; it turns people off immediately before they hear what you really have to say.

[–]llrudekid -1 points0 points ago

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Why are you Religious? Do you really believe in the flood, Moses, Red Sea Parting, ect? Or are these just helpful moral tales that you use to navigate your life? And why have miracles stopped? Elijah made an Ax head float on a whim.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]llrudekid 1 point2 points ago

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I was raised Mormon, and I really studied it and prayed but part of me always new it wasn't the path for me. But Mormons kind of have it is us or no one philosophy. I stayed so long with the Church because I was afraid of losing what it sounds like you have. I understand that comfort of a loving God and answers to Questions. I really wish I could believe again, I really miss God.

[–]Kadmium -1 points0 points ago

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My argument can essentially be summed up thus: Bacon is delicious. Your move.

[–]castellammare -1 points0 points ago

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Bacon is carcinogenic.

[–]castellammare -1 points0 points ago

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But delicious.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points ago

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Hooray Bigotry! It's acceptable as fuck as long as it's against religious folks. ಠ_ಠ

Seriously, fuck you very much.

There is no difference in this and posting skinhead propaganda.

[–]castellammare 2 points3 points ago

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I was with you to the end of the first sentence. Then you just saw that cliff and dove right off, didn't you?

[–]Elephinoceros 0 points1 point ago*

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Ridiculing people for what they believe is not the same as terrorizing Jews and black people.

Try again.

edit: well, I got a bunch of downvotes, so I guess I'm wrong :). Sorry bout that!

[–]SaintGenesius 1 point2 points ago

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You're definitely not wrong, but apparently you ARE a meanie.

[–]SaintGenesius 0 points1 point ago

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House, House and house and house and house and house and House and house and house

and now this one.

Seriously, post this a few dozen more times.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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Here's the bottom line. If you downvoted something in this thread that opposed religion, you're probably an idiot.

[–]BrownPower 1 point2 points ago

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It's not lupus.

[–]theghostofme 0 points1 point ago

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Take the circle-jerk to r/atheism.

[–]SaintGenesius -1 points0 points ago

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R/atheism doesn't want this retarded crap anymore either.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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Shame on this subreddit.

[–]RebelWithoutAClue 1 point2 points ago*

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I really don't understand why a framework of personal religious beliefs needs to be rational in the first place. Many things which "rational" people hold sacred are difficult to defend on a rational basis. For example:

-The right to pursue happiness as stipulated in the US constitution. WTF does this mean for logic vs. religion? If happiness is not necessarily rooted in logic, why does logic trump religion in a discussion of religion vs. science? Logic trumps the emotional appeal of religion only in the field of rational debate, but only because the marking scheme is contrived to be so. I move that since "the right to pursue happiness" is in itself impossible to define logically, religious Americans, and atheist Americans have common ground in a pursuit which is irrational. This is a point against

-All "laws" of nature are tenets of science which CANNOT be further explained. We have to take these laws on faith that they will continue to fail to be disproven. Sure I believe that every force has an equal and opposite reaction, but I take this on FAITH. I will never be able to prove that this law is true, just as Newton failed to prove it. We have merely failed to disprove it and every observation up to this point appears to confirm this premise. While this fulfills expectations, logically this is not proof. The root of scientific understanding is therefore founded in a form of faith in something which cannot be proven further. Many of these laws or understandings have been subsequently disproven as we improved our understandings. We always thought that if you were moving towards an emitter that the emission would appear to move faster. This is the case with the Doppler effect on sound. If you run towards someone throwing a snowball at you the projectile closed with it's own speed plus your own. Michaelson and Morley proposed an experiment to determine the speed of the Earth in the ether of the universe by comparing the speed of light in perpendicular directions. The experiment was a bust in a most profound way. They could not detect any relative motion of the speed of light. No matter how carefully they rebuilt their apparatus they could not detect any difference in the speed of light under any orientation or experimental condition. Against all expectations and against several "laws" of science, they had to give up and accept a most perplexing conclusion: the speed of light is constant?! This discovery gave rise to quantum physics, a huge area of science which defines behavior which is extremely strange in comparison to our comfy Newtonian understandings.

In light of the requirement of FAITH in basic laws of science, I see a reduced difference between science and religion. About the only difference I see is that science is supposed to be self examining. We are supposed to retest our laws in order to see if we can further divide them or pull out new understanding. Organized religion can be dogmatic and protective of their old orders, but this is a human mistake which also occurs in science sometimes. I have many religious friends (my wife included) who have a flexible sense of religion. They haven't exactly proclaimed their disbelief in crazy shit like the Book of Leviticus, but their personal sense of religion appears to be reasonably reconciled with their rational needs. I believe that Einstein's personal religion was of a flexible nature. It would be contradictory for him to be a dogmatic God botherer in the church and a flexible freebooting physicist tooling around with algebra to see how he could reconcile weird shit like a unifying theory. Quantum physicists basically were free thinking enough to throw away the dogma that light behaved like a particle with inconsistent speed (across frames of reference) and bent their understandings of space and time to fit the constant of C.

Stop using a crummy understanding of science in a "rational" assault on religion. Every time I see a clip of Dawkins going off on the wickedness of religion I wonder if he has forgotten his research in evolution. Perhaps religion is an evolution of BEHAVIOR which is self propagating and has been instrumental in bringing about generally very peaceful and orderly societies. Sure you can get all retroactive and say that now we have laws and order and MRI machines, we should shitcan religion for EVERYONE, but that's just basically fascism in new garb.

Humans today are still emotionally motivated beings. We might think that we've got logical tools which superceed all other decision making apparatus but if we really thought that way we'd never get a hardon and procreate because that would be just irrational. The real trick is being able to reconcile our emotional motivations with our rational understandings. Let our rational understandings inform our emotional motivations. Maybe we don't exactly need that shiny new automobile which will unfortunately NOT get us handjobs from women we hardly know. Maybe I could stop buying so much useless crap that just goes into the dumpster and I could afford that backpacking trip in South America and eat a guinea pig on Machu Pichu.

It's illogical to be so reductive and try to pry the human condition apart. Do you think that something as sophisticated as human behavior is going to be properly reduced into some basic lego chunks by our crude rationale? Besides, what's the fun in that? I think real happiness comes from opening up your emotional motivations to being rationally informed and using one's rational powers to fulfill one's emotional desires.

[–]decodersignal 3 points4 points ago

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TL;DR just kidding I didn't read it either.

[–]foobarr -1 points0 points ago

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With all due respect, House never gets it right until there are only moments remaining. Considering he said that at least a week ago, he simply must be wrong. It's waaaay to early for him to be right.

[–]Cosmocrator 1 point2 points ago

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That's reasoning! +1

[–]Stewpid -1 points0 points ago

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If you could reason with Liberals there would be no Liberals. FTFY

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points ago

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/atheism is leaking poops.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]EmptyFriend 2 points3 points ago

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except that it's in the r/atheism faq as one of the examples of images posted way too often ( http://i.imgur.com/MnjuN.jpg ). it still sneaks into r/pics and r/funny pretty often though.

[–]h0ckey87 0 points1 point ago

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House is too awesome

[–]aleab05 -1 points0 points ago

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when i read this, i heard his voice, and his lisp. lol.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points ago

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[–]biggmclargehuge -1 points0 points ago

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Well said writers for the fictional television show character House, well said...

[–]My_First_Pony -3 points-2 points ago

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The religious people on this site will downvote and make passive agressive comments, pointing out how some religious people are also logical, how they feel religion is opressed and attempt to discredit what was said. They never think it applies to themselves, because they're reasonable people right? They say they beleive in science just as much as Jesus. In reality they suffer from cognitive dissonance, trying to reconcile "Jesus is lord" with reality. Let me ask the Christian people this:

You're a rational person right? You know that evolution is overwhelmingly proven to be true. You know that humans evolved from ape like ancestors. But if that's true, then what about Adam and Eve? There's no absolute point where suddenly an ape gives birth to a human. You can't give rise to the billions of people alive today from a single breeding pair, did Cain have sex with Eve? So if Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden were just figurative, then where did original sin come from? Is every living thing born in to sin? Why?

Maybe there isn't original sin, so nothing is born into sin. Then why did Jesus die? Why should you follow him? Don't just wave your hands and say "God did it" and "he works in mysterious ways", actually think about the implications of what you beleive.

Maybe it's all a load of shit? Go read your bible, you'll realise it is if you're reasonable enough.

[–]MInTheGap 0 points1 point ago

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In answer to your questions:

  • Sure.

  • Your second sentence is false: Evolution has not been "overwhelmingly proven to be true." In fact, evolution is still evolving because current discoveries keep forcing scientists to change their models. Some may say this is the scientific method in action. Others could as easily say that this shows that the original model is flawed beyond repair.

  • What about Adam and Eve?

  • Certainly-- there was no time when an ape gave birth to a human. I believe the Creation Story. What's the problem with giving rise to billions of people from a single breeding pair? Are you mathematically challenged?

  • No, Cain did not have sex with Eve. Probably married one of Eve's daughters or granddaughters. You're not taking into account the longer lifespans.

  • I don't believe Adam, eve and the garden were figurative, therefore I have no problem with original sin or beings born into sin.

  • Exactly-- if no sin, why did Jesus die? This is why I don't think there's a middle road.

[Edited for formatting.]

[–]My_First_Pony 0 points1 point ago

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So you're saying because discoveries are being made that correct minor gaps in the understanding of the specific evolutionary path of certain species of our planet that the entire principle is flawed? You do not understand evolution or the scientific method.

I'm not mathematically challenged, the problem with giving rise to billions of people from a single pair is the fact of inbreeding. Unless of course you wave your hand and say "God just made it so the inbreeding didn't cause severe retardation and sterility in the children."

I invite you to actually learn about evolution and science in general instead of just going "God did it exactly how it says in this version of the bible".

[–]MInTheGap 0 points1 point ago

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First of all, I have no problem with science correcting minor gaps in understanding. However, that's not really what we're seeing. What we're seeing is revisions of dates because things don't fit. We're seeing every major "find" revised to be not such a big deal. And then there's soft tissue found in fossils supposedly millions of years old-- where there shouldn't be soft tissue.

The greatest evolutionists of our time keep redefining the Macro-Evolution model. It was The Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection, then it was probably natural selection, and now's it's something even more convoluted because that doesn't even seem to work.

Let alone the whole problem of life coming from non-life.

Sure, the scientific method starts with an hypothesis and then tests for the hypothesis and modifies itself based on the outcome. The problem is that with TENS, the scientist starts with the outcome he wants and then continues to massage the data to fit his outcome-- and then states that this is what the Creationist does.

There's no hard facts out there that prove or disprove Evolution simply because Evolution is unfalsifiable. It's definition is simply changed to fit whatever is found.

Genesis 5:5 states that Adam lived to be 930 years old. Jim Duggar, at the age of 46, has 19 children. Assuming that the body didn't age in the ways that it does now, it's possible that Adam could have had 384 children with Eve. But, for the sake of the argument, let's say he had 100. So, that would mean that over 930 years Adam had 100 kids, of which Seth, Cain and Abel were only three (Genesis 5:4).

Though the Biblical record is clear about the fact that Cain and Abel were the first two children, but we also know that from Genesis 4:3 that the story of what happened between the two of them happened "after the process of time". At that time, Cain and Able both had profitable businesses gardening and tending sheep. These things did not happen immediately, and given the long lifespans it's conceivable that multiple generations could now be existing, or at least enough for different families and more than enough to provide for a wife for Cain.

Incidentally, the Bible doesn't name every person ever born, it selects certain people and tells their story. That Genesis 4:25 states that Seth was born after Cain had his kids might mean that Seth is younger than Lamech, but it could also mean the conclusion of the story of Cain and the beginning of the story of Seth.

(The method of textual preservation I find interesting in this passage is the Tablet Theory which states that Moses edited together tablets from the past, which would work well in this instance.)

You assume that there'd be a problem with children coming from a single pair, but does that mean you doubt current genetics that trace us back to a hypothetical "Eve" and "Adam"? The "Eve" is supposed to be from Africa.

Why do mutations such as severe retardation and sterility occur? Because of genetic defects, or the combination of genetic data such that a mutation occurs (which, incidentally, is the whole method that you say created everything around us if you believe in TENS, since it is the random genetic mutation that's supposed to give us more information. Will you get your story straight? :) ).

So, if God did create things "very good" it is highly likely that there would have been no problems intermarrying in these early generations. In fact, there's no Biblical prohibition of intermarriage until Moses and the law come into play. If you were a student of your Bible, you'd know that Abraham married close kin, as did Isaac and Jacob. In fact, we're lead to believe that it was common practice to marry cousins in that day.

It's only now, with our genetic similarities and carrying the same genetic flaws that we prohibit access to marry the next of kin, and even in the United States there are still places where you can marry your first cousin-- but I digress.

I invite you to actually learn about the Bible and Documentary Evidence in general, instead of just going "Evolution did it exactly how Darwin says in the Origin of Species."

[–]My_First_Pony 0 points1 point ago

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So your argument is this: Misleading vividness + spotlight fallacy, factual error, slippery slope, red herring, strawman, strawman + special pleading, false dilemma + burden of proof (also your position with this dilemma is based on circular reasoning, factual error and probably genetic fallacy), strawman, more statements based on circular reasoning, appeal to common practice, strawman.

I'd try to reason with you but... well...

I don't hate you, just don't go teaching defenseless kids your beleifs, how would you feel if a scientologist came and indoctrinated your kids?

Also don't kill your kids if god says to, what if god doesn't tell you to stop like he did with Abraham? You'll have murdered your own kids is what.

[–]MInTheGap 0 points1 point ago

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Did I just win the game "see how many words My_First_Pony can throw in there to make it look like he knows something without justifying his answer?" Because I spent quite the amount of time for you to just randomly dismiss all of it and thrown in a stupid photo of an illogical statement from a guy who is a hypocrite for a living and that's supposed to somehow mean something.

If I remember right, you can't even follow your own advice, since it was you that started the conversation expecting Christians to not even follow their own belief system, and when you find someone that is consistent with their belief system you simply can't process it.

That, and you probably didn't even read the reply.

You know what, perhaps you should take your own advice, and since you obviously have no clue what you're talking about you should refrain from commenting on the subject matter entirely.

[–]My_First_Pony 0 points1 point ago

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I'm sorry big words and simple concepts confuse you.

[–]MInTheGap 0 points1 point ago

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lol

[–]iHigh -5 points-4 points ago

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Road House

[–]llrudekid -5 points-4 points ago

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This is going to sound trollish, But why are people Religious? I was Religious because of up bringing, but I now would say I'm spiritual. Spiritual meaning I FEEL that their is part of me that is immortal even though I can't prove it and I believe listening to this part of my self is the best path through life. Why would you need a go between yourself and God if you have a soul? Doesn't religion seem like an odd construct? Like a mechanic taking his car to the shop? So seriously why are people Religious.