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top 200 commentsshow all 297

[–]XanthosDeia 279 points280 points ago

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My college computer security professor was a huge opponent to electronic voting, especially (but not limited to) ones without a paper trail.

For our first assignment in the class, we were actually given the source code for a generic electronic voting machine, and given carte blanche to insert any hack for whatever purpose we wished. After that, each team was given hacked code from two other teams and we had to find the other teams' hacks (without diffing the code).

The best hack (and only one that wasn't discovered/understood by other teams until after the assignment) was a team that simply changed the length of the random PIN given to each voter from 4 digits to 6. As it turned out, because the un-modified system didn't use a secure random number generator, 6 digits disclosed enough information to allow a group of attackers with 2-3 consecutive PINs to easily find the random seed and generate infinite PINs.

[–]havespacesuit 84 points85 points ago

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Jesus fucking christ.

[–]DaGhost 48 points49 points ago

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ELI5

[–]fauxnetikz 57 points58 points ago

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I'll give it a shot (correct me if I'm wrong, someone):

When you go to use this machine, you're given a PIN to use to "log in." The PIN is randomly generated by the software. In programming, "random" numbers are based on a "seed," which could be the current time, a formula (square root of the person's age * 5, or whatever), or some other number.

The hack changed the PINs from being 4 digits to 6 digits (4321 vs. 654321). Since the two extra digits contain more information, they were able to figure out what "seed" the system was using to create PINs. Once they had the seed, they could use it themselves to generate any number of valid PINs they wanted. This would allow them to enter thousands+ of valid votes that the system would not be able to distinguish from real voters.

Does that make more sense?

[–]DaGhost 13 points14 points ago

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I actually followed along the first time, I didnt get the point. And you gave me said knowledge.

Thank you (upvotes!)

[–]jibberia 3 points4 points ago

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Actually, I bet the extra two numbers were at the end of the pin, thereby allowing them to find "2-3 consecutive pins" and *easily* figure out the seed.

Well explained, though. Upboat sailed your way.

[–]Death_Blinder 1 point2 points ago

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Smart people, can you please save our country?

[–][deleted] 52 points53 points ago*

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Why the fuck can't they implement an electronic voting machine that also prints out paper copies of each vote. ffs, even give each voter a receipt of the votes they cast. Someone tampers with either side of things they get caught..

edit: to address concerns of selling votes and cost: how would this be any more expensive than having traditional 'scantron' paper ballets, aside from electricity usage and voting machine equipment cost, and why not have the printed voter receipt encrypted so actual votes cast couldn't be read unless brought to a comptroller office or something...

[–]tuscanspeed 139 points140 points ago

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They DO have voting machines that print a paper trail and are fully audited and are as secure as any slot machine.

They just don't use those for governmental voting.

"Why?" You say. Is it really that hard to figure out?

[–][deleted] 37 points38 points ago

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Funny thing, you get upvoted for statements like this, but when I imply anywhere that the government doesn't have it's own peoples best interest in mind, and I get stormed by folks calling me a "tin foil hatter".

[–][deleted] 60 points61 points ago

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You have to say it in the right place.

People flock to the threads that match the mood of their opinion, and if you post it in a thread with a differing mood or message, you're going against the tide and will get downvoted.

[–]jmarquiso 4 points5 points ago

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You know the ISSUE with these voting machines is that the image is implying is a lack of governmental oversight.

[–]infantada 10 points11 points ago

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I would say that the actual issue is a lack of public oversight. Opensource it (months to years before deployment) and make it mainstream public. Let the wizards hack and kludge and crack and fix the code. Let it be accessible to the people who are giving consent to be governed. Some won't care, some some will care but do nothing about it, some will care but not be able to do a thing about it, some won't care but still dig around and debug it for fun. But some will care, and also (be able to) make contribution. That's the strength of opensource.

Now, there does need to be some official oversight. A maintainer, if you will. Calibrations and standardizations... That's a debatable matter, but maybe it too should be a public matter. Who calibrates our machines? The corrupt government, or the corrupt corporations, or the developers? What about a non-partisan non-profit organization that operates like any other standardization org, like iso or ansi or nist?

Lots of wrinkles to iron out yet.

[–]groberts1980 4 points5 points ago

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Agree completely. The problem here is that the software on these machines is developed by private companies who are profit driven, therefore their code is trade secret and closed source. Code like that will never, ever be as secure as open source code that hundreds (or better yet, thousands) of people have looked at and contributed to it being bulletproof.

When will the government wise up to the fact that a single entity (in most cases a Corp) is incapable of producing a product that cannot be hacked?

[–]akbc 0 points1 point ago

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they don't opensource the slot machines too.

[–]asbestosmask 2 points3 points ago

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is a lack public oversight.

ftfy

[–]downneck 1 point2 points ago

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preaching to the choir is easy. take your downvotes like a man and hope you reach someone.

[–]nilcalion 8 points9 points ago

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Paper trail can be used to sell your vote

[–]tuscanspeed 2 points3 points ago

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Elaborate please.

What good is selling my vote after it's cast? I'm not following.

[–]nilcalion 11 points12 points ago

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You can get a deal with a malicious person that he will pay you X amount of cash if you vote for A. You will get paid only if you can prove that you in fact did vote for A. You usually only can show proof of your vote AFTER the voting :)

[–]tuscanspeed 1 point2 points ago

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Fair enough. But it's already kind of done, just ahead of time. That's how a lot of people view party affiliation.

I do see your point though. I'm just having a hard time figuring out if it would make a big difference.

[–]BraveSirRobin 0 points1 point ago

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Worse: your boss says "vote X or you are fired".

Having no proof of what each voter voted is key in free elections.

[–]LarrySDonald 2 points3 points ago

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You could anyway. You're allowed to vote in private (obviously) so it's not like you couldn't snap a cell pic or video of yourself voting the way you're paid to. It would be illegal and tricky to do on any sort of scale without getting caught, but that's the case with a paper trail too.

[–]nilcalion 0 points1 point ago

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That's true and they should not let you in a voting booth carrying cellphones or any kind of recording device.

[–]michaelshow 1 point2 points ago

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similarly, it can be used to intimidate voters to vote in certain ways. guy with a baseball bat saying "let me see that slip".. it better be for the right person.

[–]txcapricorn 1 point2 points ago

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The problem with this theory is that you'd need a lot of people with bats - more than potentially worthwhile. (From a 101 political theory standpoint, this is one of the problems with the "stick" portion of "Carrot, Stick, Kiss;" the amount of effort required would cost more than the end benefit.)

Now, at a higher level (say, Congressional or City Council) this idea works well. But at the street level, where there can be tens of thousands of votes? Knee capping one guy isn't going to change the outcome of the polls.

[–]nimajneb 2 points3 points ago

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Adding a paper trail doesn't make the unit itself more secure, it makes it easier to find discrepancies, if audited. But even the paper trail can include the discrepancy so the auditor may not even know the vote is altered.

[–]Big_Baby_Jesus 1 point2 points ago

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Not surprisingly, we use electronics machines with a verified and fully auditable paper trail in Nevada. It allows us to have a fantastic early voting system where anyone in the county can show up to any early voting station. You're in and out in 10 minutes.

[–]TheJBW 0 points1 point ago

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Who downvoted this? As a Nevadan, BBJ is 100% correct. In the 90's, the state government went to the gambling regulatory agency and basically asked them to set down guidelines. Before the rest of the US had diebold crap, we had a verifiable paper trail. Frankly, I don't understand what is wrong with the rest of the country.

[–]hornetjockey 0 points1 point ago

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The voting machines where I vote in central Ohio do have a paper receipt. There is a little window on the voting machine so you can see it being printed.

[–]StridentLobster 11 points12 points ago

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Or we could just skip the horribly insecure thing which requires a power source, and just write on the paper for starters.

[–]dunchen22 18 points19 points ago

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I think the point of e-voting is that it can produce instant results. But if we're going to wait nearly 3 months from election day to inauguration, I think I can wait a few fucking days to make sure we got it right.

[–]Icovada 20 points21 points ago

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Over here, Italy, we vote on paper. Guess what? Around 45 million voters, most of the time voting for two or more things, and the results come in at most 3 hours after the polls closed. Is it really so difficult?

[–]rjung 12 points13 points ago

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Sure, but you guys have Socialized Medicine!

[–]Icovada 3 points4 points ago

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...and? I don't see the point.

[–]spicnic_basket 17 points18 points ago

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It's a joke.

[–]Dr_fish 21 points22 points ago

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Typical American calling socialised medicine a joke >:(

[–]spicnic_basket 0 points1 point ago

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Typical foreigner calling out American stupidity :-P

[–]staz 12 points13 points ago

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well in Italy it's easy, Berlusconi win all the time

[–]BulletBilll 1 point2 points ago

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It's the same here in Canada, voting usually closes at around 8~9pm, resutls are in by midnight to 1am

[–]Icovada 1 point2 points ago

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Voting closes at 3pm, votes come in right in time for the evening 8 o'clock news

[–]BulletBilll 1 point2 points ago

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I'm on the east coast of Canada, so voting and results is later for me. Because Canada has 5 timezones.

[–]harpwn 1 point2 points ago

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Might have something to do with the fact that there are more Californians than Canadians. America is HUGE and we still have the votes by the next morning

[–]BulletBilll 0 points1 point ago

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I don't think size matters, they just split up into smaller districts in higher populated areas so everyone can have their votes counted as soon as possible.

[–]kyleg5 2 points3 points ago

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These machines do exist, but the central argument against them is cost. After the fiasco that was Florida in 2000, Congress (in their infinite wisdom) passed the "Help America Vote Act" which provided hundreds of millions of dollars (unpaid for, of course) to the states to purchase new voting machines. So in the early 2000's, most states upgraded to Diebold-made machines with all of the flaws listed by the OP (and then some), and now states are VERY reluctant to go out and purchase new machines that offer VVPT (voter verified paper trail). The transition is happening, but the cost of the transition makes it a very slow one. Unfortunately, the reality is that VVPT only provides security in the event of a paper recount, which registrars HATE because it takes time and manpower, two things they lack. If a hacker (or machine malfunction) programs the electronic vote counter to a believable ratio that avoids a recount, no one will ever go through the paper ballots.

[–]willcode4beer 7 points8 points ago

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It's to prevent the selling of votes. Having a receipt with your votes would provide proof for those buying votes.

[–]test_alpha 5 points6 points ago

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Unfortunately, it also enables the selling of votes. By the people who make the machines.

[–]mst3kcrow 4 points5 points ago

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Alternative: give people the ability to inspect the printed receipt under, say, a hard clear plastic which can't be opened without a key.

[–]decavolt 2 points3 points ago

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They do, and they're in use in certain places. In the last 2 districts I've voted in for Chicago the electronic machines have produced a paper copy of my ballot.

[–]SoPoOneO 4 points5 points ago

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Why not have the voter mark bubbles on a paper copy, and feed that into a machine? And then they can confirm by looking at a screen that it has been recorded properly.

In that scenario the original thing they wrote on is the receipt.

[–]CircumcisedSpine 4 points5 points ago

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During the 2008 election, my state offered this option as an alternative to the paperless touch screens. In 2010, the scantron option was gone. I asked the official on site and they said the state mandated 100% electronic voting and only permitted scantrons in 2008 because the expected turnout exceeded the number of machines they had available at the time.

Bullshit if you ask me.

[–]Icovada 5 points6 points ago

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Sounds like the people wanted scantrons... like, you know, a voting in the voting. An they just didn't care. It's anti-democratic

[–]CircumcisedSpine 4 points5 points ago

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The scantrons were popular. When I asked what happened to them, the volunteer said she wanted then too and that many people asked if they were available.

Lame.

[–]Icovada 1 point2 points ago

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How about paper and pencil?

[–]SoPoOneO 1 point2 points ago

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Scan-trons seem like a better solution to me. You still get electronic tallying, but you start out with, and keep on file, nice simple paper. Laying out the paper in a logical way is still critical, but seems potentially less error prone than touch screens. I guess it does require more prep time and resources to pre-print different ballots for every district.

[–]Seangonzo79 0 points1 point ago

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I know for my last time voting, which was a county issue on a sports arena we had, that this. You get a scantron and a manilla folder. You go into a booth, vote, put your vote in the folder, walk 10 feet, take your vote out of the folder, and put it in the machine

[–]piderman 1 point2 points ago

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Because it means that with that paper you can trace your vote and thus it is linked to you. Voting however is supposed to be anonymous.

[–]arachnophilia 37 points38 points ago

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gambling: serious business.

democracy: not so much.

[–]Kalium 31 points32 points ago

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Live Free or Diebold.

[–]cavortingwebeasties 4 points5 points ago

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That's full of clever.

[–]Kalium 0 points1 point ago

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I can't claim it's original. It's something that was tossed around back in the days of the Electronic Civil Disobedience mailing list.

[–]Burnin8 56 points57 points ago

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Why don't we just use scantron forms like school tests? Paper trail and speed.

[–]dunchen22 77 points78 points ago

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Because that's much more difficult to manipulate.

[–]rjung 8 points9 points ago

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Not that it doesn't stop malicious folks from rigging Scantron machines either.

[–]trimeta 17 points18 points ago

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Some states do just that.

[–]ryouba 1 point2 points ago

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Quick! Grab a bubble gum wrapper and rub the shiny side on your scantron! You'll get a 100.

[–]bikemaul 1 point2 points ago

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Oregon and virtually all of Washington state vote by mail.

It even reduces the cost of elections; I'm sure with the debt crisis the entire country will change over in time for 2012 elections. /s

[–]Popular-Uprising- 5 points6 points ago

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Unfortunately, it also increases the potential of voter fraud, voter intimidation, and disenfranchisement of voters.

[–]bikemaul 0 points1 point ago

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I think the potential for disenfranchisement of voters higher with this highly flawed implementation of voting machines.

[–]Yotsubato 0 points1 point ago

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We do, at least in California.

[–]C_IsForCookie -1 points0 points ago

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Are you between the ages of 6 and 22? You better be able to use a scantron or you fail!

Are you older than 22 and not in school? We will accept your complaints when you tell us that scantrons are hard to use and you don't understand them.

[–]Popular-Uprising- 0 points1 point ago

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In a nutshell: cost, time to tally, potential for error, potential for "losing" ballots.

[–]counteraxe 4 points5 points ago

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At my polling place you put your scantron through the scanner yourself to make sure your vote got counted, then the hard copy ballot goes into a locked box. I would assume it would have about the same time to tally as a full electronic system. It also seems like the full electronic (ie touch screen) systems would be more costly, more error prone, and they don't generate hard ballots so they are in effect 'lost' by design...

[–]dwaxe 29 points30 points ago

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The first one on that list is the very worst. All electronic voting software should be open source. Then we'll be ruled by crafty technocrats. After that, by robot overlords.

I for one welcome our new robot overlords.

[–]thatusernameisal 6 points7 points ago

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At least you got a chance to win while gambling.

[–]spacemanspiff30 13 points14 points ago

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the problem with the last one is that the gaming control board is staffed by those who either used to work in, or wish to work for the casino's. almost every dispute is decided in favor of the casino. sort of how regulator's will decided for the regulated in order to have the opportunity to earn substantially more when they leave based on their connections and knowledge of how the system works. however, it is a valid point.

[–]Big_Baby_Jesus 6 points7 points ago*

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You have no idea what you're talking about. Every person who works in the gaming industry lives in fear of gaming control board fines. If you don't do things exactly by the book, they will fine the living shit out of you.

If one casino in a state is proven to be cheating their customers, what do you think will happen to attendance at the other casinos in that state? Gaming commissions are in charge of protecting the entire state's reputation, and more importantly their tax revenues.

Feel free to post a link where a state gaming board sided with a casino over a patron who was in the right. Before you post about a slot machine malfunction, that sign that says "malfunction voids all plays" is not a joke. If the maximum possible jackpot on a game in $100k, and the game has a $37M jackpot, that's a malfunction. The casinos get audited to make sure that the games aren't malfunctioning in the house's direction, either.

[–]yawetag12 2 points3 points ago

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This.

I work in a casino. We're audited every quarter by three entities: internal auditors (work for the company), external auditors (paid by the company; think D&T), and gaming auditors (paid by the state, through taxes paid by the casinos). The "difficulty" of the audit gets tougher as you go down the list.

Good example. This didn't lead to a fine, but was something mentioned on a recent gaming audit report: The state regulations say a Table Games person must replenish playing cards in the pits; when they do this, they're escorted by a Security Officer, who verifies the number of decks removed and added to each pit, then signs off on the paperwork. At my casino, the Officer is usually a male and the Table Games manager is often a female. The male, being nice, pushes the cart for her and she's basically walking next to it the whole time.

The state auditors claimed the Table Games employee isn't in possession of the cards at all times. Therefore, she has to push the cart while he walks next to it. Crazy, but it's their interpretation of the rules.

Gaming is probably the most-regulated industry in the country. Every procedure completed by an employee is detailed in several different documents, each more restrictive than the next. You'd be surprised how tedious things can be.

[–]Big_Baby_Jesus 1 point2 points ago

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Gaming is probably the most-regulated industry in the country.

I know an electrical engineer here in Vegas that went from working at a slot machine manufacturer to working for GE on a new type of Uranium enrichment. A reason they said they hired him was because "you are already familiar with the type of regulatory environment we have in the nuclear energy industry".

[–]hivoltage815 5 points6 points ago

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The problem with the graphic is the assumption that public entities are less corruptible than private. You have to assume both are equally corrupt and build your system from there.

[–]zeug666 2 points3 points ago

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If someone doesn't think the public is equally as corrupt as private (maybe even more), than let me tell you that I've got this thing, and it's f--ing golden. I'm just not giving it up for f--ing nothing.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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f--

fuck has four letters. What expletive did you mean?

[–]borosiliKate 0 points1 point ago

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Frying

[–]zeug666 0 points1 point ago

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haha, just lazy typing and habit using two hyphens

[–]spacemanspiff30 0 points1 point ago

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very true, but private entities are harder to check up on than public ones. but you make a very valid point

[–]unkyduck 12 points13 points ago

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Funny that the same companies can produce ATMs which flawlessly count a zillion and six transactions a day... but somehow they can't lock the back door of their voting machines. (Literally and figuratively)

[–]willcode4beer 7 points8 points ago

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There have been a number of ATM hacks in the news over the last decade too.

[–]mst3kcrow 6 points7 points ago

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Go to Defcon and use an ATM.

[–]Chandon 2 points3 points ago

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The security model is completely different.

ATMs involve relatively low value authenticated private transactions with an audit log between two parties with an interest in securing those transactions. It's a dead easy information security problem.

Voting requires explicitly anonymous and non-logged but reliable and non-duplicated communication between potentially hostile parties in a system where any systemic attack has a potentially extremely high monetary value. The resulting information security problem is basically impossible if you assume electronic data transfer and non-expert users.

We can solve the problem by either:

  • Educating every voter and election worker as information security experts and having them each build their voting machines from off the shelf parts and write their own voting software. At this point it's a solved cryptographic protocol problem and works perfectly.
  • Use the standard "paper/pen/little old lady" voting procedure which actually ends up having basically all the properties you want when used in the real world.

[–]TheMetal 4 points5 points ago

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I hope this is not too far down to be read. I used to work for a IT security company who will remain anonymous. My company was hired by the state to test the electronic voting machines. I don’t remember the model (Diebold was the manufacturer) but we were sent two, and several chips after breaking one of them. Our first complaint was that the internal components were too easy to access. Out second was with how encryption was done. Not only did we find these devices to be very insecure, but after submitting our findings we were ordered by the state to rewrite the report in a more favorable context, or they would drop our contracts with them. Upper management caved, and wrote the reports the way the state officials wanted them written. I have no evidence of this other than what I was told by the engineers on the testing team. I wish I had gotten ahold of both reports.

TLDR: Company I worked for was hired to test the machines. Diebold voting machines suck, and are insecure.

[–]KerrickLong 2 points3 points ago

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ordered by the state to rewrite the report in a more favorable context, or they would drop our contracts with them

ಠ_ಠ

[–]Osmodius 4 points5 points ago

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Mmmm justice.

[–]jambox888 4 points5 points ago

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This is why reposts can be good - so we don't forget about important stuff like this.

[–]Lokehue 3 points4 points ago

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From The Programmer's Mouth: How The 2000 Election Was Fixed

"Clinton E. Curtis, ex-programmer tells all during a Congressional hearing on voting fraud. In October 2000, Curtis was asked by Tom Feeney (R), then Speaker of the House in Florida, to write a computer program that would render electronic voting fraud undetectable. Curtis did just that."

Video of Congressional hearing

Also see the documentary Hacking Democracy

[–]raider1v11 1 point2 points ago

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then amazingly Clinton E Curtis and Tom Feeney started an electronic voting device company.....

[–]Eyght 12 points13 points ago

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If people had to put money in the machine to vote, the same system would be used for slots and voting machines.

[–]kaywiz 12 points13 points ago

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You mean like taxes?

[–]Jymotion 0 points1 point ago

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I see the difference between them, but could you explain a little more?

[–]skintension 2 points3 points ago

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Right, but one of those is about money, and the other one is about money.

[–]HansJuan 2 points3 points ago

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Here in the Netherlands, a bunch of hackers just hacked the whole thing and showed everyone that it's messed up.

[–]casperrosewater 34 points35 points ago

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We in the U.S. have not lost our rights and our freedom, we have blindly given them away.

[–][deleted] 65 points66 points ago

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Fuck you, no I didn't.

[–]hollywoodbob 31 points32 points ago

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Our parents did it while we were still too young to vote.

[–][deleted] 53 points54 points ago

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No. That's a tired copout. The real answer is that you can only elect a TINY percentage of the government, and once they're in they have no incentive to actually do what they promised.

[–]theusernameiwanted 26 points27 points ago

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What made this man delete his account ಠ_ಠ

[–]dunchen22 20 points21 points ago

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He knew too much.

[–]ExogenBreach 38 points39 points ago

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[–]alexoobers 10 points11 points ago

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The hivemind has grown more powerful than we could have ever imagined.

[–]C_IsForCookie 0 points1 point ago

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This

My next door neighbor tried to get me both into voting and then into voting for the tea party and M.Bachmann. Firstly I told her the tea party and Beck are out of their minds and why and she couldn't counter.

Then I explained I'm not into voting because it's not how we display our power any more. It used to be that the people's power lied in our ability to choose our leaders. Well that doesn't matter any more because they all get caught up in the game one way or another after they're elected, even if they had good intentions.

Our power now comes from our ability to get our voice heard like never before and network ourselves to get things changed. Don't like the way government its running? Don't bother electing a new guy because he'll just suck too. Get the word out instead! Make noise! LOTS OF NOISE! Get the media involved, get facebook involved, get local government involved, call your local representatives and complain so that they're involved and on your side. Make Some Fucking Noise!

This is where our power comes from now.

[–]significantshrinkage 1 point2 points ago

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You'd make a great M.C.

[–]GManNickG 0 points1 point ago

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And not voting is the best option? Inaction isn't going to counter-act the truly bad votes.

[–]NancyGracesTesticles 8 points9 points ago

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That's weird because a variety of voting software systems have been evaluated by academic and state-level organizations.

As far as programmers being convicted of fraud, you don't know that the guy that contributed to your banking software wasn't convicted of fraud. And what about the PMs, QCs, QAs and DBAs that are involved in the project. Do you need to know if they have any convictions on their records, or is it just the coders?

[–]warpus 21 points22 points ago

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And what about the graphic designer? Maybe there's a penis in there somewhere

[–]NancyGracesTesticles 4 points5 points ago

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Meh...everyone knows that graphic designers don't do any real work :P

[–]faggatron 7 points8 points ago

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My dad worked as a manager in the software department of a bank. Yes, all of them were background-checked.

[–]a_lumberjack 0 points1 point ago

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In many cases, criminal check AND credit check required for finance companies. Even for an internal comms job my girlfriend was interviewing for, they just don't want any insiders who might try to pull a scam.

[–]hughk 2 points3 points ago

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The Banks where I have worked require some kind of elementary background check, criminal record check, etc. Yes, banks buy binaries through external vendors but the QA can be fairly tough.

[–]IMonCRACK 1 point2 points ago

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Watch this and you will see it's not the actual voting machine, but the cartridge it uses.

[–]tuscanspeed 3 points4 points ago

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That's weird because a variety of voting software systems have been evaluated by academic and state-level organizations.

It doesn't take much more than a quick look at Diebold to see the potential problems.

Would love to see some kind of link backing your statement up. All I could find was how easy it was to hack one via usb flash drive.

[–]khalilzad95 0 points1 point ago

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This post is pretty old - are there any other parts of it that are no longer accurate?

[–]digiteknique 0 points1 point ago

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I work for a casino management software company. Every employee and principal of the company has yearly background checks through the company. Since we also sell software to tribal casinos, we are checked yearly through the tribal commissions. I have approximately 12 background checks run on me per year.

[–]yawetag12 1 point2 points ago

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Good news: you won't go more than a month without having that warrant served!

[–]digiteknique 0 points1 point ago

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Excellent. I hate laying there, unable to sleep for worry about outstanding warrants.

[–]griffin30007 3 points4 points ago

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I'm just going to leave this here. you know, just to fuel the flame war.

[–]IMonCRACK 2 points3 points ago

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As am I. The video you posted is Testimony, and mine is proof.

[–]griffin30007 0 points1 point ago

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Ah been a while since I saw that one. Great doc.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]gbates31 0 points1 point ago

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If we can't trust either of the two with voting or power, then maybe they shouldn't be made responsible in the first place.

[–]rincon213 1 point2 points ago

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Comparing casino security to airport security is equally startling

[–]nickfaker 1 point2 points ago

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Please dont even use the term "Electronic Voting Machine". The fraud starts with the terminology, and "machine" implies something mechanical and reliable. These things are however just computers, and that's what they should be called.

[–]IMonCRACK 1 point2 points ago

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[–]Frank_The_Hyena 1 point2 points ago

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Nice. I like the way that the corporations getting rich is closely scrutinised to ensure, you know, they ain't stealing off you. But they sure don't want you knowing how they steal elections.

[–]LuNaTiC_ViRuS 1 point2 points ago

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AMERICA!

FUCK YEAH!!

[–]ArmsRaisedBeBrave 1 point2 points ago

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American Blackout and Hacking Democracy are both great films to see on the subject!

[–]kadmylos 1 point2 points ago

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The difference is, of course, that slot machines make profit, and therefore are considered more important in this country. CAPITALISM MUST BE DEFENDED AT ALL COSTS OR ELSE YOU ARE A COMMUNAZI. THAT IS ALL. GAWD BLESS 'MERICA.

[–]Astroid 1 point2 points ago

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Why do you need electronic voting? You must be able to gather as many counters/population as anywhere else and counting only takes a few hours in Sweden (except for remote votes that come in later)

[–]IphtashuFitz 1 point2 points ago

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About 10 years ago I worked for a while for a company that developed electronic games for the casino industry. At the heart of every game is a random number generator that feeds numbers to the games. The games themselves are fully stateful, so if you reset a game and give it the same sequence of random numbers (and play your moves identically) then it should result in the exact same outcome.

The RNG's themselves are highly secure since the play of every game depends entirely on them. IIRC, there are only two companies that have RNG's certified for use in Las Vegas (at least at the time I was working for this company). An RNG is essentially a small box with a power cord, a serial connector, and a locked panel to get inside it. whenever a game that's hooked up to the serial port reads from it, it gets a new random number. If power is lost or if the RNG is opened up then the device immediately locks itself down (and possibly if the data signal on the serial port is lost as well, I forget). Once the device is locked down it has to be reset by the gaming commission, who are the only ones with the appropriate codes to do so.

The gaming commission also has the ability to audit the RNG's, which let's them generate a complete list of all the random numbers that the device has generated. And since the games themselves are stateful, it means that they can replay entire game sequences if necessary in order to verify the outcome of a game.

At first it surprised me how sophisticated & secure these RNG's are and that voting machines aren't anywhere near as secure. But then it occurred that billions of dollars a year rely on the security of the RNG's, while politicians rely on the results of voting machines...

[–]yawetag12 0 points1 point ago

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which let's them generate a complete list of all the random numbers that the device has generated.

I don't think it's a "complete list," but only a list of the last x spins (x varies by jurisdiction).

[–]pbtifo 1 point2 points ago

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What the fuck does the picture for 'Handling Disputes' represent?

[–]gndn 0 points1 point ago

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It's two angry faces staring at each other (in profile). They're having a dispute that needs handling, presumably.

[–]Warlizard 5 points6 points ago

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So put the Mafia in charge of elections.

I can't see any problems with that.

[–]A_Straw_Man 2 points3 points ago

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We tried that. Got a lot of progressives elected.

[–]notdanrather 2 points3 points ago

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A few years ago, in Tucson, an IT guy working for the county took all of the voting results home on a CD. The results could have been edited in MS Access. In the end, they just decided that he probably didn't alter them and they accepted the results.

[–]mst3kcrow 1 point2 points ago

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Sounds like Kathy Nickolaus of Waukesha, WI.

[–]ambiguousequitur 1 point2 points ago*

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In Canada, we use pieces of paper and a pencil. We get the results the same day. Instant paper trail. Is laziness a good enough excuse for your insecure electronic systems? Am I missing what the real reason is?

[–]Monolithic 0 points1 point ago

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We have a much smaller population though. That said I still don't agree with electronic voting machines.

[–]Adrestea 1 point2 points ago

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The stupid thing is that electronic voting machines that I'm aware of are kind of glorified abacuses. Electronic voting COULD be done right, in a secure way, with useful extra features like being able to verify that your vote was counted correctly without being able to sell votes, and not revealing your vote to anyone anywhere. See the google tech talk here.

[–]Chandon 0 points1 point ago

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Although the theory for cryptographic voting is great, it doesn't work for large scale elections in practice because requiring a math degree in order to trust that the voting system works in practice is unacceptable in a democratic society.

[–]hivoltage815 2 points3 points ago

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I don't understand this argument. Lots of people have math degrees to verify. It's not like the average citizen understands how the current system works.

[–]Chandon 0 points1 point ago

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It's not like the average citizen understands how the current system works.

Whether the average citizen actually understands or not, you can explain the standard "paper/pen/little old lady" voting protocol to a volunteer poll worker well enough for them to act as an election observer in like two minutes:

People vote on these pieces of paper and put them in the ballot box, then later we count the votes in the box. The box is empty now, see? Make sure that the only thing that goes in the box is one completed ballot per voter. When we're counting tonight, keep an eye on all the ballots and double check all the counts in case someone tries to cheat.

With electronic voting machines there's no chance of that. With cryptographic voting it's even worse. It's essential to plausible democracy that everyone can participate, and we have a procedure that works well that enables everyone to follow along. There's no excuse to screw this up.

[–]Chandon 0 points1 point ago*

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One interesting thing to note about the Scratch and Vote system described in that video is that that it doesn't rely on any specific hardware or software. The whole question of auditing voting machines is avoided - it's effectively a "paper ballot" system.

It still suffers from the problem that it requires expertise to trust or even to understand the proper voting procedure, but if we could somehow mandate two years of university level discrete mathematics for every voter a system like that would be pretty cool. The secret ballot is still weaker than the standard protocol, but it might be acceptable.

[–]Sarahmint 0 points1 point ago

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This makes me mad >:(

[–]NBegovich 0 points1 point ago

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A source for that information would be greatly appreciated.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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not even shocked... good post

[–]dunchen22 0 points1 point ago

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Sign up for absentee ballot voting. Always vote with pen and paper.

[–]HSOK 1 point2 points ago

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I do this from Canada. My first ballot was for the Bush vs Gore election and it had punch out holes. Since that whole "hanging chad" issue they've switched to a bubble sheet type ballot, where you just mark an X in a circle. This is basically the same thing for Canadian voting ballots. Funny how a system from thousands of years ago still seems the most fool proof.

[–]Chandon 0 points1 point ago

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Absentee ballot voting has most of the same problems as electronic voting, even if it's done with pen and paper. Like electronic voting, absentee ballots provide neither observability nor the secret ballot.

Further, by centralizing the tallying, dedicated absentee ballot systems like they use in Oregon make the value of fraud drastically higher than in other systems. All you need to do is compromise the workers at that one tallying office and you can make the vote come out however you want.

The secret ballot is one of the more controversial requirements for a voting system because it seems like a huge waste of time until someone actually engages in vote buying or voter coercion. At a certain point you have to just accept the historical lesson that this does happen and has allowed elections to be stolen and realize that the secret ballot really isn't optional. This is important enough by itself that any voting system that allows absentee ballots at all is illegitimate.

[–]Sontikka 0 points1 point ago

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[–]Sephr 0 points1 point ago

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Why would you care if any of the programmers have been convicted of fraud if the software is reviewed by the government? I'd be worried about the operators of the machines, not the programmers of the software.

[–]BigolTiddiz 1 point2 points ago

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Who said the software is reviewed by the government? I wouldn't trust my local government to empty my garbage, much less review code.

[–]Sephr 0 points1 point ago

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It's implied by fixing the first issue.

[–]JOHNREDCORN 0 points1 point ago

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Funny you say that, they skipped my garbage can yesterday. I suspect they skip my votes too.

[–]chijiba 0 points1 point ago

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In California they require the machine to print out a hard copy of your votes as well.

[–]steste 0 points1 point ago

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what the hell is that picture supposed to be for "handling disputes"?

[–]reddittttttttttt 0 points1 point ago

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I think its two ladies with very large mouths kissing? No but really, I came in here in search of what it was, and after studying it...It's two faces, noses touching, eyes glaring, eyebrows down, with smug looks

[–]g8trboi 0 points1 point ago

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Tip of the proverbial iceberg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clint_Curtis

[–]SpartanSig 0 points1 point ago

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I work for a large casino's compliance department and can verify that casino's can barely breathe under the pressure of the gaming board, especially outside of Nevada.

[–]kitkatkitkat 0 points1 point ago

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What the fuck america?? Can we all please stop being idiots and giving people reasons to point at our once great ideal of democracy and go "really bro? seems like your shit is more messed than ours."

if other counties said "bro"....

[–]FlyDino 0 points1 point ago

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Well that's depressing.

[–]hornetjockey 0 points1 point ago

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Slot machines: Operated by private companies and regulated by the government.

Voting machines: Operated by the government and regulated by the government.

There's your problem.

[–]expectingrain 0 points1 point ago

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Also one gives you free drinks. The other makes you want to drink.

[–]tomparker 0 points1 point ago

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Michelle Bachman -- Michelle Bachman -- BAR

BAR --------------- BAR --------- Kenny Powers

Sarah Palin ------- BAR -------------- Rick Perry

[–]gurucingh 0 points1 point ago

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Look at this site -http://indiaevm.org/, it actually shows how one can walk into a voting booth and hack the machine.

The govt agencies roughed up these guys pretty badly.

[–]doinit4lulz 0 points1 point ago

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Oh, it must be voting season.

[–]elvis1403 0 points1 point ago

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Same with breath test machines

[–]T8ert0t 0 points1 point ago*

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This problem needs to be tackled by every state legislature. If that state is using electronic voting machines, do it with code and hardware that can be audited and spot checked, and allow voters a printed receipt with a unique number for their voting choices--which wouldn't have their name and info just the transaction--that can be verified upon during the final count or recount.

[–]thomasrye 0 points1 point ago

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When it says, "By a public agency..." I assume that means "By a non-profit government agency..." ? Because I'm sure many of the for profit voting system companies are public.

If not then this point is a big spin... but the rest seems valid :)

[–]NerdBot9000 0 points1 point ago

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I don't care about elections, JUST DON'T MESS WITH MY FUCKING MONEY! This is capitalism in a nutshell.

[–]youngrver 0 points1 point ago

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This is to rig your elections

[–]Rape_Advocate 0 points1 point ago

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lmao if you're not already aware that there is massive, untraceable voter fraud occurring in every single american election

[–]monstermash420 0 points1 point ago

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Sounds about right.

[–]dghughes 0 points1 point ago

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#4 "equipment certification by a public agency at arm's length from manufacturers" is misleading or at at least partially wrong probably due to ignorance more than anything. Manufacturers and local governments work with Gaming Labs International the biggest gaming device certification company in the world.

Nearly all, if not all, certification of hardware and software is done by GLI which I don't believe is a public agency the graphic probably refers to local government regulation as the final step after they get GLI certification.

[–]ZeNiTH456 0 points1 point ago

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All jurisdictions have the opportunity to do their own certifications above and beyond GLI. There are some that go beyond what GLI offers, these seem to be primarily lottery jurisdictions.

[–]dghughes 0 points1 point ago

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Yes, that's what I meant, but my point being it's both and never just one single local department GLI is always involved as far as I know.

[–]ZeNiTH456 0 points1 point ago

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There are some outside the US that don't use GLI, they are using a different 3rd party and their own team of testers. I can't think of any inside the US that do not though.

[–]dghughes 0 points1 point ago

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Oh I don't doubt it I just figured GLI was widely used due to the 'International' part of their name but I can see small regions where it wouldn't be used, some are pretty shifty places.

It's too bad the average player doesn't know about them I think it would be good to promote what they do maybe even a certification sticker or sign at the casino entrance.

[–]BreakThings 0 points1 point ago

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I'm quite a fan of electronic voting but I've refused to support its actual implementation until those exact problems have been fixed.

[–]stopherjj 0 points1 point ago

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Yeah, and the voting machines only give payouts for politicians rather than the guy pushing the buttons.

[–]victavicta 0 points1 point ago

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Just sent this link to the assistant registrar of voters for my County. I will await a reply :)

[–]leftwinglock 0 points1 point ago

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Interesting. Both machines were designed to make already rich people richer. Apparently, transparency is more important in gaming though. Sad.

[–]TyleReddit 0 points1 point ago

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And that's how George Bush won the election.

[–]RyudoKills 0 points1 point ago

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I emailed my brother-in-law, who works for Hart Intercivic, one of the biggest voting machine manufacturers in the world, and this is what he had to say:

That’s hilarious…..I’m not sure what voting system is used in Nevada, not Hart’s, but there is a bit of twisting of the information in these claims.

Software – ‘Software is a trade secret’ – not entirely true; it is dependent upon what that particular state’s requirements are. Some states , like California and Colorado, have very strict laws in place and have access to our software. Other states, like Oklahoma, do not have a state certification requirement so they may not want/need access to the software.

Spot-checking – this one is quite funny – we have a triple redundancy system – every vote is accounted for and it up to the state’s election officials to follow the correct procedures to prove this. We rely on complete transparency and to this day Hart has never lost a vote. The Diebold machine in the picture, their reputation is not very good.

Background Scrutiny – Not all, but some of our customer require a background check performed on Hart employees which Hart provides them upon request.

Equipment Certification – Again, this is based on what the state’s requirements are. In Texas, before every election the county or jurisdiction is required to perform a public test of the voting equipment to ensure no foul play.

Handling Disputes – this is pretty accurate; it is up to each states election board or Secretary of State’s office to handle election disputes. We cooperate fully with them, but it usually is human error by the voter’s part or error by the election judge onsite.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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This is depressing.

[–]Fluxbios 0 points1 point ago

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Put it all on black and vote for Obama.

[–]tedistkrieg 0 points1 point ago

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Welp that's what happens when the gaming industry is one of the most regulated industries around.

[–]mac1diot 0 points1 point ago

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There are a lot of errors on the right side of your list.

[–]alexd_aka_crtod 0 points1 point ago

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Shut. Down. Everything.

[–]jacekplacek 0 points1 point ago

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...and the most important thing: In Las Vegas you at least have a chance of winning...

[–]notreallyracist 0 points1 point ago

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hey add that to the reasons i dont vote

[–]dreinn 0 points1 point ago

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Money > votes, apparently.