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[–]annata 144 points145 points ago

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That's some Silent Hill'esque stuff, very creepy and true

[–]BonzoTheBoss 30 points31 points ago

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Indeed, a powerful image regarding the indoctrination that children undergo.

[–]highd 37 points38 points ago*

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When I think of my parents taking me to church when I was a kid, I always feel like I was left with invisible handcuffs on. I am an atheist now, but it was a very slow process for me. The guilt of shedding something like that, something your parents thought was so important that they dragged you to a place week in and week out for more then 10 years is tough to over come.

I wish there was an age restriction on taking kids to church. Maybe 11 or 12, by that time you sort of know how to sort the bullshit from what matters, and the choice to continue with a religion would be up to the kid. I know it's pie in the sky thinking but it makes more sense to me than that picture.

[–]breauxaj 29 points30 points ago

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I agree with this idea, except you know exactly what will happen. The major religions would be gone in a single generation. Without the indoctrination of children, they don't stand a chance.

[–]artee 9 points10 points ago

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Not sure that's true, apparently humans are predisposed towards believing there is some deeper meaning behind everything. It might not be one of the current big religions, but just be replaced by something else.

[–]bananatattoo 10 points11 points ago

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Definitely true. Humans are predisposed toward it, sure, and there will be plenty of adults that convert. But just think of the number of children who grow up in one religion and never move away from the place where they grew up, they raise children like themselves...

Of course, we can't deny that putting kids in church on sunday morning mean there are fewer children in restaurants and grocery stores during that time.

[–]Thalfon 4 points5 points ago

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To add to the others, even if people were still predisposed towards some kind of spirituality, I suspect at the very least that you'd have much less organized religion and more just passive/personal spirituality, which (hopefully) wouldn't come with the reality-contradicting dogma and bigotry.

[–]colorless_green_idea 0 points1 point ago

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But there is always the "church crowd" on Sunday afternoons, with extra kids to make up for the time in the morning they weren't there.

[–]slipperyottter 4 points5 points ago

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I would say this is because we are naturally curious creatures. If we have no way of finding answers, then we are more likely to be religious, since they readily have answers, valid or not.

If science, especially theories like the big bang, the formation of solar systems, and evolution were to be taught earlier on, then people would be less likely to be religious, because science has mighty strong evidence to support itself.

Kids also need to be taught the scientific method, and how scientist avoid confirmation bias by trying to prove themselves wrong instead of right.

[–]bigups43 0 points1 point ago

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Humans are most likely predisposed to a lot of uncanny shit that we no longer do.

[–]chrisrico 13 points14 points ago

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Christianity, like other religions, is a meme, and it has found a way to successfully use our brains to replicate itself. Part of that reproductive success is due to the prescription for childhood indoctrination. It's not just an accident that children are taught this shit as absolute truth.

[–]W00ster 2 points3 points ago

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Religion or the 2000 year old equivalent of Nigerian 419-scams....

[–]3R1CtheBR0WN 7 points8 points ago

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And priests are the biggest trolls ever

[–]rossryan 0 points1 point ago

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They get paid for it. Think about it. If you thought so little of your fellow man, that you would enslave his mind, and eat the fruits of his labor, while peddling a snake oil solution to his problems (ensuring he would always have to come back for more), you'd be a priest.

As it stands, I believe parts of the Bible (New Testament), read, allowing for interpretation as a thinking man, not as a pawn, that when their savior returns, they intend to divide up the cities, the cities' wealth, and its inhabitants, according to who has promoted their religion the best. And parts of Revelation seem to imply that these priests will have the 'true believers' tackle an army of superior numbers and strength, with the promise that this is 'the first death.' Me thinks the priests have found an excellent way of killing off select portions of the populace, and claiming their belongings in their absence.

What these 'true believers' are told, is that 1.) in attacking this army, they are doing the will of their god, and 2.) that by doing so, they will earn favor with their god, and so are assured a 'resurrection,' which will take place at some point in the future (several years, or a thousand, who knows), and 3.) the army that they attacked will be thrown into a volcano pit ('the second death').

Given that quite a few of the Abrahamic religions all state something similar, and I may have found traces in a few other religions, I feel I am either looking at a poison pill / scorched earth scenario, in which the religion is attempting to protect itself against a hostile takeover from another, or someone has setup an interesting doomsday scenario, where a few fires in the right places, maybe a timely famine, and a shout of 'the enemy is over the next ridge,' with no clue who that enemy is, resulting in two or more groups annihilating each other in the process. It would be an intriguing solution to the 'population problem,' while 'cleansing' the earth / human gene pool of less desirables (anyone who doesn't resist the religion a.k.a. the mentally enfeebled).

I'm still weighing a few things, mentally, with regards to this...I could be wrong, and probably am.

[–]Bandit1379 1 point2 points ago

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Sometimes I wonder why I was so fortunate to escape...

[–]mike_sol 3 points4 points ago

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It does take a long time to clear your head, doesn't it! Were you left with any moralistic holdovers and hangups?

[–]highd 7 points8 points ago

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Yes, and it's embarrassing. If I hear jokes about Jesus I get giddy, nervous and look for signs of impending doom. My husband makes some of the most offensive jokes, just to push this button.

The best relief that came with my new life is that I know that when I am doing good for people, I am just doing good for others and not trying to buy my way into heaven. It makes doing good things and being a good person feel even better.

[–]Gregoriev 2 points3 points ago

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My husband makes some of the most offensive jokes, just to push this button.

That's a keeper right there.

[–]sparr 1 point2 points ago

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A point I'm always curious about when it's brought up... What sect of Christianity were you brought up where you learned that doing good things got you into Heaven?

[–]highd 1 point2 points ago

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I was raised in the Methodist church. Our minister was always very clear about good deeds. I think he hit that topic up every 5th sermon. He always made the streets lined with gold pitch, and how "every good deed get's you closer to heaven".

[–]sparr 1 point2 points ago

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A point I'm always curious about when it's brought up... What sect of Christianity were you brought up where you learned that doing good things got you into Heaven?

[–]Ottiee 0 points1 point ago

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http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=232420

"All people under 18, except those studying at religious schools, are banned from worshiping in the Central Asian nation's mosques, churches or other religious sites, said the law which came into force on Thursday.

It also bans girls from wearing jewelery except earrings and prohibits people under 20 from getting tattoos, going to night clubs and watching films or reading material which "disseminates pornography, violence, extremism and terrorism"."

Progress, sort of?

TL;DR - Kids in Tajikistan aren't allowed in churches or mosques and have to go to secular school.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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OH GOD WON'T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN!?

[–]smellslikegelfling[!] 0 points1 point ago*

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Not just the indoctrination, but the world view that people carry with them even after they grow up. They see everything through a lens made of the bible. Everything to them is in some way tied to God, the bible, or Jesus from then on, and interpreted likewise. I like to call them Jesus goggles.

[–]femalephilia 11 points12 points ago

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scripture head FTW.

[–]godlessaltruist 3 points4 points ago

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yeah, something about this image is terrifying and disturbing to me

[–]aidrocsid 5 points6 points ago

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It reminded me of Beetlejuice actually.

[–]annata 5 points6 points ago

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[–]MoroccoBotix 1 point2 points ago

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It really is scary the utter bile that parents feed their children. Hell, just look at the pure indoctrination the children of the Westboro Baptist Church had to go through. :(

[–]TheBachelorFrog 12 points13 points ago

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Sadly, how I felt as a young child. The worst part was my father was a pastor. Never worked though, I was always an atheist and would often troll at church.

[–]CeeJayDK 26 points27 points ago

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Reminds me of the movie Coraline.

[–]CosineX 10 points11 points ago

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That's what I thought of, too. "You can live in this great little fantasy world, but there's horrible stuff happening around you and also we're taking out your eyes."

[–]bsonk 0 points1 point ago

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Yay, another fan of a movie I am mildly associated with!

[–]Tastii 5 points6 points ago

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[–][deleted] 20 points21 points ago

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How about "Raising a muslim"? That would be a fun picture, right?

[–][deleted] 16 points17 points ago

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I think an appropriate title would be "Indoctrination". Can be religious or non-religious. It's just that the religious often don't allow their kids to choose or think for themselves.

[–]sushihamburger 1 point2 points ago

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Picture would include more FGM.

[–]PlaySalieri 0 points1 point ago

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What would "Raising a pastafarian" look like?

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points ago

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That can't be right. That child doesn't look molested at all.

[–]PossiblyHeroin 12 points13 points ago

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Any idea who the artist is?

[–]tarantulus 7 points8 points ago

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[–]not_loubandy[S] 9 points10 points ago

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I don't think that's the original artist. Check the comments

[–]tarantulus 0 points1 point ago

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my bad, can't get to deviantart at work.

[–]not_loubandy[S] 5 points6 points ago

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I found the image on 4chan and tinyeye'd it, but couldn't find the original artist

[–]HerrBongwasser 4 points5 points ago

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drr...drr...drr...

[–]Leg_Named_Smith 2 points3 points ago

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Are all UPS drivers Christian?

[–]honestbuzzard 2 points3 points ago

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Ugh, reminds me of my upbringing...

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]svantuss 0 points1 point ago

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Musta struck a nerve.

[–]daman345 2 points3 points ago

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A lot of people say you could say the same about atheist parents. You could, but it wouldn't apply in most cases. Unless you class raising them to think critically, ask questions about things and possibly teach them stories from many different religions as indoctrination. Which would be daft.

[–]yollamasmama 3 points4 points ago

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I can't quite figure out what that guy is trying to do with the kid's hand...

[–]uselessbastard 4 points5 points ago

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i think he's distracting the kid while mom sneaks up from behind?

[–]neightdog 20 points21 points ago

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My parents never did this and I came to my own conclusions about Jesus

[–]not_loubandy[S] 11 points12 points ago

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what were your conclusions about Jesus?

[–]Antrikshy 9 points10 points ago

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He's not God.

[–]tequiila 5 points6 points ago

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He is similar to George W Bush

[–]W00ster 1 point2 points ago

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The Jewish equivalent of Superman comic books

[–]Veylis 4 points5 points ago

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You were undoubtedly influenced by the powerful in group out group system that cults create in communities that host large numbers of cultists.

It is a powerful social pressure. You obviously would not have found the "truth" in the christian bible otherwise. Do you think many Hindu would pick up a bible in their home country removed from these pressures and as adults decide that christianity was the correct religion?

[–]AgnesScottie 1 point2 points ago

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Where I grew up, at least 85% of the parents did this. Obviously not literally this, but you were brought to church at a young age and you sang the Jesus songs, and once you reached the age where you could ask questions you were always steered back to God and the Bible as the right answer.

[–]neightdog 0 points1 point ago

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85% of the parents did this

[citation needed]

[–]AgnesScottie 0 points1 point ago*

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"A vast majority" It was not all parents, some kids did not go to church. That didn't mean their families didn't believe in God, they just weren't as hardcore about it. But it was common in elementary school for the "getting to know you" part of class to include asking where you went to church. I could go through an elementary school yearbook and be able to tell you the denomination of most of the kids. I'm not sure where you are from, but in small town bible belt Tennessee there was no such thing as "reaching your own conclusion" about Jesus.

[–]rjcarr 1 point2 points ago

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Are you saying that you were never taken to church, or taught about religion in any way, but now you're a christian?

Because you know the part about smashing a bible over your head is a metaphor, right?

[–]HoopsMcgee 1 point2 points ago

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So unless he came to the conclusion that God doesn't exist, then his parents forced him to be Christian?

[–]rjcarr 1 point2 points ago

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I think forcing may be a little strong, but many, many parents literally force their children to go to church up until a certain age. However, most children do what their parents tell them so again, force may not be the right word. But very few children would opt to go to church, that's for sure.

[–]neightdog 0 points1 point ago

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would you, as an atheist, let your child/ren go to church?

[–]higherlogic 3 points4 points ago

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No, because my children would have no reason to ask to go to church, just like they wouldn't ask me to go to a KKK rally.

[–]Major_Major_Major 1 point2 points ago

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If my kid wanted to go to church with a friend or something, I would let him.

[–]rjcarr 1 point2 points ago

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Of course, but I can't imagine why they'd ask to go to church of any faith. But if, for whatever reason, they started watching one of those church channels and said hey, this looks interesting, can we go I'd say absolutely.

[–]neightdog 0 points1 point ago

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What if your child decide to become a fundie?

[–]rjcarr 1 point2 points ago

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At what age? I don't think there are any fundamentalist christians below the age of 15 that haven't been influenced by their family in some way.

If my child was a young adult (say 15+) he could practice whatever religion however devoutly he wishes.

[–]neightdog 0 points1 point ago

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Any age. No qualifiers. Your child decides the earth is 6000 years old and Amurrica and no abortion and the bible is the word of god, etc.

[–]rjcarr 0 points1 point ago

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Like I said, if the child was of appropriate age (~15+) he can do whatever he wants. I'd hope I would have thoroughly educated him enough to not have those beliefs but you never know.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]fiftypoints 36 points37 points ago

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Have you seen Jesus Camp? I think that's the kind of indoctrination the image is alluding to.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points ago

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Yeah, but Jesus Camp is a pretty extreme example. It's not just atheists that find that documentary haunting: it's a LOT of Christians. I'm a catholic living with a group of priests and brothers (a very orthodox group, too), and we all think that shit is terrifying and ridiculous.

[–]p4ch1nk0 4 points5 points ago

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What's most troubling for me is that I'm not sure how widespread that degree of Christianity really is. I grew up with a slightly less severe form of it and I'm still observing the results of it in others. The summer camps and other church-centered events that children were immersed in really had an effect in my area.

[–]pahncrd 3 points4 points ago

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The underlying justifications against rationality and humanism are still apparent in most other sects of Abraham religions.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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Possibly, but not all.

[–]pahncrd 0 points1 point ago

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From my time in various parts of the midwest and west of the united states, they are all there at varying levels depending on the particular sect.

The most destructive ones are arbitrary shame and punishment, and I see those everywhere.

It's just not a long fall for many given the right environmental pressures. Once it is in a persons head to give up rationality for faith, it doesn't really matter whether it is a little bit or a lot, they now have the mechanism to justify anything through the arbitrary pressures of their tribe or sect.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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I think you would be right, but you're missing one thing.

While the ability to justify ANYTHING with faith or "God told me to" can be exceptionally dangerous (Inquisition, Salem Witch Trials, etc), Christianity should teach that these justifications should also be probed by reason. So, let's take the example of a man who kills hookers "for Jesus". He has taken his faith and justified his actions, but is he a good Christian? No, because he's not using reason or mercy in his actions, both of which were taught by Jesus.

[–]pahncrd 0 points1 point ago

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You went a little no true scottsman on me. :3

You are correct that a great many people that identify as christian, are really shitty at being christian and ignore all of the inconvenient bits. It is one of my pet peeves in fact. Like the social conservative that holds jesus as his personal savior and hates homos, then goes on to hate the poor as well, while voting for more wars and more suffering.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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I was just reading up on that fallacy on the FAQ. Creepy. It's one of my pet-peeves too, especially when people use Christianity as a political means. It totally misses the point; if you're Christian, then Jesus should be the end-all-be-all, not just a reason to be a tea-bagger, or a means to get conservatives to like you. It seems very contradictory to me.

[–]Absyrd 4 points5 points ago

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Do you believe that only the saved go to heaven, and those unsaved will rot in hell for all eternity? If this is the truth, there is nothing wrong with "Jesus Camp" or any extreme fundie church out there, and I roll my eyes whenever a Christian calls out another's extremism. If you truly accept Christianity, you SHOULD indoctrinate your beliefs onto your kids, because not doing so would be selfish.

When Harold Camping predicted the rapture on May 21st, most Christians denounced his beliefs as radical and extreme. Really, the only difference you guys shared was the date of the events. If you guys are right, there is no "extreme" or "too literal" interpretation of the Bible.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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First off, I'm not a fundie. I'm a Roman Catholic, and we don't believe in literal interpretations of the Bible. I don't believe the world was created in 7 days and neither have the last two Popes.

I also don't believe that people are "saved" in the protestant sense of the word. I don't believe that simple belief in God is enough to get to heaven, I think it takes a series of choices, and an overarching attitude. However, I also believe in a God of mercy who welcomes into heaven many people who are not Christian.

Indoctrination, in the sense that you are using it, is the forcing of beliefs from one generation onto another. I don't believe in this, nor do I believe that believing in something simply because that's all you heard is true faith. It's lack of perspective. There are those who have witnessed and subscribed to other beliefs before converting to Catholicism. These are the people who have true faith, along with those who have probed their faith until they are convinced by it, not their parents.

If you believe that Christianity requires indoctrination, it is you who misunderstand the religion.

[–]sluggdiddy 0 points1 point ago

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Then why are the majority of its core tenants and beliefs focused on indoctrination? Why is church in almost every sect of it basically an indoctrination center where people chant the same lines repeatedly over and over again to eachother? Indoctrination isn't as cut and dry as you imply when you use the word "force" to describe how it is implemented. There are also subtle ways that people indoctrinate others, are you equally against that form of it?

Also I find it just slightly odd that someone who doesn't believe in a literal interpretation of the bible is trying to claim that someone else misunderstands the religion. Why is it that for the longest period of time a literal interpretation of the bible was all that existed? Or was it ok for them to take it literally then because that was back in ancient times when people acutally behaved the way that the bible instructs its followers too but now since we do not act (for the most part) like bronze age ignorant people any more that its no longer ok to take it literally? In my opinion, my unbelievable humble opinion...I am the son of god. Oh wait. I meant that it seems to me that those who took the bible literally in the past and still do today, are more in line with the originally intended interpretations of the holy book as it is really the only way the book makes any sense. For example, what the fuck does gensis mean if its not literally about creation, or noah's ark tale..what is the non-literal interpretation of that? Or whats the non-literal interpretation of all the "sins" or crimes that call for death? I just don't understand how any of that makes sense as anything but something meant to be taken literally...

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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We believe that God reveals him self little by little over time, as his people grow and change. Also, I'm not sure that the Bible was taken as literally as you think it was for all of history. For instance, the story of Jonah has always been understood as a satire; the Jews didn't actually believe (or at least, the educated Jews) that animals put on sack clothes and repented for their sins. I imagine that they looked for religious truth (aka, the moral of the story) rather than scientific truths in scripture.

[–]Absyrd 0 points1 point ago

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I don't want to start a religious debate because no one ever wins, but I disagree that you should unsubscribe your belief from certain passages and accept others as truth. John 14:6 says there's NO way to God except through Jesus. I don't know where I'm supposed to draw the line between what should be taken literally and figuratively, and I don't think the Bible was written with that intention either.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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Exactly. You approach God through the teachings of Jesus, which was a message of love, not brutality. As Catholics (and we're in the minority here), we believe that the Bible is religiously true, not scientifically true or historically true. The important part of the creation story isn't HOW God created the world, just that he did. He could very well have initiate the Big Bang and then guided evolution, but the meat of the story is that he has a very large role in creation, so that's the part we take as truth.

[–]bananatattoo 19 points20 points ago

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You find it haunting, huh? Yet you go to church, give money to these organizations, dedicate your time to a group of people who have basically the same beliefs and practices and reinforce this very activity?

You must not be very haunted.

[–]Daemon_of_Mail 2 points3 points ago

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give money to these organizations

Implying he's somehow helping to fund extremism.

dedicate your time to a group of people who have basically the same beliefs and practices and reinforce this very activity?

That's an interesting assumption.

/r/Atheism has quite an impeccable way of arguing.

[–]bananatattoo 8 points9 points ago

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I am not adequately illustrating how I came to my conclusions. I know they're a little bit accusatory, so let me explain.

I found it hard to continue calling myself a Christian in the face of the horrific things that have been done in its name. I felt like, and continue to feel like, any good thing I did as a Christian would only serve to strengthen an institution which was not an overall force of good.

I consider the "Jesus Camp" idea in this category of things I can't believe people allow to happen in an organization they dedicate so much time to. I understand that all Christian denominations are different. That's what bothers me.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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I know what you mean; I'm Catholic, and I'm sure you've heard what has been done in the name of Catholicism. You have to separate the religion (that is, the teachings) from how people apply them. For instance, if for some reason Atheists decided they were going to bomb the shit out of everybody (I know that this would not happen, it's a very extreme example), that wouldn't make Atheism true or untrue. Only logic and reason can decide if a belief is true, not how it's believers (or non-believers?) behave.

[–]ScannerBrightly 2 points3 points ago

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Implying he's somehow helping to fund extremism.

There was a time when people thought that knowing about child rape and not going to the cops about it was pretty damn extreme.

[–]FCalleja 23 points24 points ago

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I'm not trying to be rude here, but you guys do realize that if you had been born in, say, India, you'd be Hindi and not Christians? How did your parents NOT influence the information you got that led you to Jesus?

[–]pahncrd 4 points5 points ago

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Probably Convenience Christians. People that call themselves Christians, but ignore all of the inconvenient parts. :3

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]pahncrd 2 points3 points ago

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It isn't really Christianity though. Everyone wants to take their beliefs and apply them to God, instead of the other way around. To fit God into the mold that they have created for him, without regard to the reality of what their religion really calls for.

For example, it is convenient to cite the bible for condemning homosexuality, but it is inconvenient to live a life of service to the poor and live a life of poverty. Or to observe any of the old laws as is charged in the new testament.

I find that when pushed, many Convenience Christians are really just deists that like to fit in and pretend.

In any case, I'm glad they didn't hold you down and make you choke on.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]Daemon_of_Mail 2 points3 points ago

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I considered myself deist for a while. I've kind of juggled it between atheism and agnosticism. I'm pretty much just atheist nowadays though.

[–]pahncrd 1 point2 points ago

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I'm a deist only since I acknowledge that the origin of existence had to be an uncaused effect, so therefore a miracle by strict definition.

[–]Thorbinator 2 points3 points ago

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The universe is uncaused, or god is uncaused. It's illogical either way, but we exist. I like the method that does not involve all the extras of religion.

[–]pahncrd 1 point2 points ago*

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My brand of deism is just a general acknowledgement of the inherent strangeness of existence, more than anything, it is functionally indistinguishable from Atheism, so I usually identify as an Atheist.

I might also consider the universe as god, and intelligent life as the way god perceives itself, but that would be functionally indistinguishable from Atheism as well. The idea certainly appeals to me, but I don't have any particular faith in it being true necessarily.

There is no religion involved as it doesn't shape my action in any way. There is no faith, no tenets, but only philosophical acknowledgement. I'm strictly a rational humanist in action.

[–]pahncrd 0 points1 point ago

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Jesus probably didn't exist, but that really doesn't matter to some, as it is the idea that is important. It's a damned shame that the idea of Christ was so twisted towards violence and bigotry over the years. The stories of christ that evolved from the disparate stories of early christian sects truly made it seem as if many of the early christians really did want to bring understanding and empathy into a world of harsh Abrahamic religions.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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Yes, stoning women to death for adultery is very inconvenient.

[–]ManufacturedConsent 1 point2 points ago

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While the books portrayed in the picture do have the Christian cross, it alludes to far more than religion. Indoctrination is what all kids who are raised in a do-as-your-told way end up with. If you are not raised to think critically and make your own decisions, then by default, you look to your parents for decision making and guidance so you believe what they tell you to believe.

That is until you realize you don't have to. But if you are indoctrinated with a cult-like belief system which sets high costs for leaving (eg: excommunication from family and friends) then it is likely you will continue to believe or at least pretend to.

And the cycle repeats.

[–]Rastafaerie 1 point2 points ago

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Your parents never told you that if you don't follow their religion you'll end up in Hell? You just decided to become a Christian spontaneously after no societal and parental pressure to learn about Christianity or believe in God? I find this hard to believe. I do believe you that your parents never physically smashed your head in a book though.

[–]neightdog 1 point2 points ago

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also, i have 4 kids and we don't go to church.

[–]neightdog 1 point2 points ago

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no. i grew up with a single mom and she really never made a big deal about religion. it really wasn't an issue. my mom and dad were catholic and catholicism srsly creeps me out. actually most christian religion creeps me out. but then again, my take on the matter really doesn't conform to mainstream christianity.

but there was no pressure at all to become catholic or even christian for that matter.

[–]postguy2 5 points6 points ago

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my take on the matter really doesn't conform to mainstream christianity.

Ah, a Cafeteria Christian: picking out the good bits and ignoring the bad ones.

[–]professorberrynibble 4 points5 points ago

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Wow. There is no reason to be so condescending. There is no reason to assume this person's beliefs are destructive in any way, nor is it inherently bad for him to subscribe to particular bits of scripture.

[–]neightdog 1 point2 points ago

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thank you. more atheists should be like this.

[–]Alanna 0 points1 point ago

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Really? Your parents never brought you to church services or Sunday school? They never impressed upon you, implicitly or explicitly, the central place religion has/had in their lives?

Maybe not, maybe your parents weren't that religious. Hell, my parents aren't all that religious and I still got taken to services and religious school.

[–]not_loubandy[S] 7 points8 points ago

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Now somebody do a "Raising an athiest"

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago*

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As per request Atheist here. Anything you believe strongly you'll pass onto your kids. All kids are indoctrinated one way or another. You can stop raging about it now. EDIT: Clarified wording

[–]Matriss 34 points35 points ago*

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Don't a lot of atheist parents just take the "let's teach them critical reasoning skills them expose them to various religions when they're old enough to understand them" approach, though?

Maybe I'm not looking deep enough, but I've literally never seen anyone writing about the subject in any other way (unless it's "atheists are evil and we need to bring the babies to Jesus!" which doesn't count in this context). Do you have examples?

EDIT: Honestly asking, not everyone has to be catty online in every comment. Just most of them. :D

[–]EncasedMeats 3 points4 points ago

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Don't a lot of atheist parents just take the "let's teach them critical reasoning skills them expose them to various religions when they're old enough to understand them" approach, though?

Single data point here. I never told my kids there wasn't a god, nor did I attempt to teach them about the myriad beliefs humans have invented over the millennia. What would be the point of that, anyway?

When they did ask if there was a god, I only ever asked them what they thought. Over the years, they have variously believed in Santa Claus, God, fairies, and heaven without God. In each case, they eventually realized all on their own that none of those made any sense.

If you don't enforce/reinforce a belief in something silly, kids as young as five will figure it out on their own.

[–]Elseone 12 points13 points ago

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Ok, here we go again.. Atheism is NOT a belief, it is the LACK of belief. I was raised by Atheist parents, they didn't speak a word about any gods/religion. Feel free to twist that into "indoctrination".

[–][deleted] 17 points18 points ago

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I have never seen an atheist force their kids to be atheist.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points ago

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You can't force anyone to be anything. However, you can claim that the other argument has absolutely no merit, which is what most atheists do. Indoctrination isn't usually by brute force, it's by years of suggestion; saying things like: that belief is absurd, or, only a moron would honestly believe that.

Other than that, I'm some atheist has cut off their children's trust fund or whatever because they "found Jesus". There are millions of atheists, and there has to be at least ONE bad egg.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points ago

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You can't force anyone to be anything.

I mean forcing your kids to go to church X times a week, sending them to Bible camp against their own will, disowning them for not believing in God, etc.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points ago

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you can claim that the other argument has absolutely no merit, which is what most atheists do

I don't think that's a very convincing argument. Many atheists are understand of why people are religious, even if they find it irrational.

[–]ThatsALogicalFallacy 0 points1 point ago

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If someone irrational believes an argument, and we understand that their irrationality is what makes them believe it, that doesn't mean that the argument has merit.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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Not necessarily. Just because something is irrational, doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong. Take an emotionally-charged reaction. You could argue that such a reaction is irrational, but you could also make a case for emotions being logical.

[–]ThatsALogicalFallacy 0 points1 point ago

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I didn't say that if someone irrational believes something that it's wrong. I only said that if someone irrational believes something it doesn't necessarily give merit to that idea.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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And I never said that the idea deserves merit in the first place.

[–]ThatsALogicalFallacy 0 points1 point ago

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I see. I don't know what you were trying to say with this then:

you can claim that the other argument has absolutely no merit, which is what most atheists do

I don't think that's a very convincing argument. Many atheists are understand of why people are religious, even if they find it irrational.

[–]HapkidoJosh 0 points1 point ago

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However, you can claim that the other argument has absolutely no merit

Not really close to being told that you are going to burn in hell forever if you don't believe or if you are bad or you play with your winky. Religion has fear going for it. Atheism just has witty sarcasm.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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Honestly, I've been in close contact with the Catholic church for years and have only twice been threatened with hell. The whole fire-and-brimstone thing is more of a protestant gig...

[–]not_loubandy[S] 7 points8 points ago

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I believe strongly in not indoctrinating my children. OMG I'll now indoctrinate my children with not indoctrinating lol meta

[–]darthweder 4 points5 points ago

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My parents raised me with no religion. And that's different than raising me atheist. They never said "God doesn't exist and all of those people are stupid." I remember a time when I asked my Das why we never went to church on Sunday like all of the mormon kids, he answered "We go to church whenever we go camping, so we make up for those missed sundays."

I made my own decisions about religion, my parents even encouraged me to go to church with my friends when they invited me. That is the complete opposite of indoctrination.

[–]logan101 5 points6 points ago

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Atheism is not a religious ideal.

[–]underline2 1 point2 points ago

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I went to Sunday School with my great grandmother when I was 5 (and got yelled at for coloring my Jesus purple), I got a Beginner's Bible for Easter when I was 6, and went to Catholic school from 3rd to 9th grade. That's the only experience I had with religion.

Never once growing up did I think of it as anything other than a story. I cried my eyes out when I read the story of David in my Beginner's Bible. But I never thought it was real. My mom never mentioned god or religion outside of these contexts. Is that still indoctrination?

[–]whydontyoulikeme 1 point2 points ago

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If you want to raise someone in a particular religion you just teach them about that religion. If you want to raise an atheist you teach them about lots of religions.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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2 things.

1) No one reads the God Delusion to a toddler. 2) What atheists parents do is teach critical thinking skills, and not indoctrinate their children into religion. This creates atheists.

[–]OdinsBeard 0 points1 point ago

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As per your name you should make one for Linux.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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No! Only religious and non-religious debaters ever do this sort of despicable indoctrination. Everyone on the Linux side of the argument would never indoctrinate their children in any way. We only teach open, critical thinking. I know this because I have never heard of any Linux users indoctrinating their children, but people who talk about religious arguments, I have. QED Both atheists and Christians propagate harmful beliefs (which should be considered a form of child abuse) and everyone should use in lieu of any opinions on religion.

[–]Confusedmonkey 0 points1 point ago

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Atheist here who hasn't read that book.

[–]The_Mexorcist26 3 points4 points ago

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Only when you escape the grasp of the book, can you be called human.

[–]WatersLethe 1 point2 points ago

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Not sleeping tonight. or ever.

[–]Calvinb27 1 point2 points ago

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TIL Christians have books for heads

[–]brettlyian 1 point2 points ago

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I got spanked by my parents one night because I wouldn't say prayer with them. I was too tired and didn't feel like it. Sometimes they just have to beat it in you.

[–]OneAndOnlySnob 3 points4 points ago

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It's Thursday again!

[–]SebCS 1 point2 points ago

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If any of you played Okami, do you get the same feeling from this picture as you got from Mr. and Mrs. Cutter?

They look completely different, however something feels similar.

(-_-') <-- Me if nobody played Okami and I'm alone on this

[–]LordDerpington 1 point2 points ago

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Yeah, so not even close in my family. My dad was an elder in my church (First Christian Church, Disciples of Christ), and nobody in my church or family ever forced me to have any beliefs. In Sunday school growing up we were taught that the only way to have a mature faith was to question everything told to you, and draw your own conclusions. Our preacher had this sermon he used a couple times a year, where he said that if you only believe something because the people around you believe it, you don't REALLY believe it, it's just peer pressure. I know it doesn't fit the nice storyline that non-Christians have about us, but some of us are actually progressive, free-thinkers. Hell, the best man in my wedding is a lesbian, clearly we're not all brainwashed by Pat Robinson at birth.

[–]painperdu 0 points1 point ago

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I'm willing to bet, however, that somewhere along in your life there was some sort of coercion and/or hard motivation that made you conclude Christianity to be agreeable with your world outlook. Be it a potential mate, friends, fellow workers . . . You didn't just happen upon Christianity by chance alone and then judge it as a rational world view.

What was it?

[–]LordDerpington 1 point2 points ago

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I actually had a negative view of it for a long time, I was agnostic until about 14. A few people in my family were very hypocritical, passing themselves off as devout and righteous then doing whatever they wanted when nobody was watching (think the song "Backslider" by the Toadies). So I just made up my own moral code and went about my business. I went to church with my family when I felt like it, mainly to spend time with my dad who worked a lot during the week, and a lot of my friends went, but I didn't consider myself a Christian. I even went to a DoC church camp, but it was honestly a social and not a religious thing, plus the camp was always about 66% girls, and I liked those odds. It was about flirting with girls ans hanging out with friends, not anything else. Then when I started high school, our useless youth minister left the church, and we got a new guy. Being a cocky 14 year old, I tested, pushed, and prodded him whenever I saw him, but instead of treating me like some kid or a potential convert, he treated me like a person, which blew my mind. We were out on some trip to the bowling alley (I was still just using church as a social place) and we started talking, and somehow seeing somebody who practiced a brand of Christianity without the hypocritical, self-righteous bullshit struck a chord with me. He didn't do good things to get noticed, but actively hid them, because that's not what he was doing them for. He was open about his faults, because he knew everybody was human, had faults, and didn't deserve to be judged. Gradually I realized that just because a lot of people use Christianity for selfish reasons, it doesn't mean there isn't something there. A couple of years later, I converted.

[–]postguy2 0 points1 point ago

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A couple of years later, I converted.

Why? You've described why you don't think you were indoctrinated by fundies, but what possible reason is there to accept as true such an outlandish story as Christian doctrine?

[–]LordDerpington 1 point2 points ago

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I think you and I are using different definitions of Christian doctrine. I doubt there are many atheists who would disagree with the phrase "let the one among you who is perfect throw the first stone". The Christianity that I practice is based off of love, forgiveness, tolerance, and trying to make the world a better place. I have never once tried to actively convert somebody, I actually find it distasteful. I just live my life the way I want, and if somebody asks me about it I tell them. There is a whole segment of the Christian population that believes that far from being the moral arbiters of humanity, we're called to be the nurse, the comforting balm, and the healing salve of humanity. Our job isn't to build a legion of followers, but to find people who need help, and help them with love in our hearts. Our doctrine is everybody needs love, everyone deserves to be happy, as long as you're hurting nobody else I have no right to oppose your lifestyle choices (I'm pro-gay marriage), and if you have the means to help somebody in need then you should. Which one of those is outlandish?

[–]postguy2 1 point2 points ago

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I believe in all that stuff, but without the whole imaginary, unsupported "God"-myth part of it. Without the nonsensical Jesus narrative. Why is that necessary in order to have your beliefs that we should be good to each other?

[–]LordDerpington 1 point2 points ago

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It's hard to understand for somebody who hasn't felt it, because I remember before I had felt it, but when you're a Christian you're not doing it alone. The idea that to be moral you have to be Christian is absurd, but a relationship with God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit helps you when you're at your weakest. When you feel like there is nothing left in your tank, sincerely ask for help, and you'll receive it. To Christians, the Holy Spirit is what gives us the extra strength to either do what we have to do, to get through a rough time in our lives, or what gives us guidance. It takes a leap of faith, but once somebody has genuinely experienced what a relationship with God is like, they understand.

[–]postguy2 1 point2 points ago

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Ah, imagination. It's a hell of a thing.

EDIT: What I mean is, you do realize that other religions say the same thing about Krishna and Allah, right? It's the power of suggestion; imagination.

[–]LordDerpington 0 points1 point ago

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I'm never going to understand why some atheists feel the need to make themselves feel superior. I'm clearly not some bigot hell-bent on spreading an ideology of hate, so there's no need to suppress me. I'm not saying I have a monopoly on truth, so there's no need to prove me wrong. If what you need to get through the day is to belittle people with different worldviews than you, that's fine, and I sincerely hope you have/find peace.

[–]lordarthien 0 points1 point ago

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I don't think postguy was being that condescending. He was providing the explanation he finds more convincing, albeit in a rather absolutist way. I do agree with him that I find belief in the supernatural to be unnecessary and, as an addendum, sometimes subtly contrary to the intellectual values I hold in esteem, but I also wholeheartedly agree that your worldview is completely positive and something to be respected highly.

P.S. As I gay person I can't help but cringe a little at your statement of support for marriage equality. My sexuality isn't a lifestyle choice. Whether I was "born this way" or it emerged from my childhood/early adolescent experience (which is what I put my money on), it's something I can't do anything about, and to try to live a heterosexual life would only be damaging to myself and my hypothetical family. Although I must concede, saying that to someone with your unique worldview feels a lot like splitting hairs, and if you feel that way, too, I apologize.

In any case, based on your posts I have a lot of respect for you, so have upvotes.

[–]Alanna 0 points1 point ago

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But all of that is very inconsistently toted in the Bible and in Christian tradition. And without a divine scripture or tradition, where does the knowledge and authority of god come from?

[–]Plutokoekje 0 points1 point ago

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The Christianity that I practice is based off of love, forgiveness, tolerance, and trying to make the world a better place.

^

Sorry buddy but it seems to me you confused Humanism with Christianity ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism )

[–]LordDerpington 0 points1 point ago

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I have no doubt Humanists also try to be a force for good just like real Christians do, but that doesn't mean that I've "confused" the two. Despite what some people think, there are Christians out there who selflessly want to do as much good as we can.

[–]painperdu 0 points1 point ago

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Isn't the converse correct as well? Because people may do good things doesn't necessarily mean they are Christian?

[–]LordDerpington 0 points1 point ago

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I agree 100%, my room mate is agnostic, and I think he's a great guy. Most of my friends aren't active Christians, actually. I definitely don't want to give the impression that we Christians have a monopoly on morality, because that idea is ridiculous. I was just saying that finally finding and becoming close to a Christian who put his money where his mouth was got me thinking about it in a new way.

[–]dumnezero 2 points3 points ago

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awesome

[–]Shodan76 3 points4 points ago

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I think it also expresses the violence used by religiuus parents towards children to make them accept all that crap.

[–]bigbadbass 2 points3 points ago

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Those eyes are disturbing.

[–]Ikinoki 4 points5 points ago

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here's an orthodox version http://i.imgur.com/oY8Pb.jpg

[–]Inamo 0 points1 point ago

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AHHHHH!

[–]toobueller 1 point2 points ago

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You have to forgive them.
They know not what they did.
Brain washing happens to every christian kid.

A shared fantasy under the spell of the book.
Your innocence and wonder and potential is all they took.

At the ends of their wasted lives, I guess they'll still be missed.
But when they find there's nothing there, boy will they be pissed!

[–]danxmason 2 points3 points ago

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Reminds me of those people who mutilate genitals for religion.

[–]taibhse 8 points9 points ago

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jews?

[–]faultydesign 10 points11 points ago

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Hey, man, that's, like, their culture, man.

[–]taibhse 6 points7 points ago

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Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points ago

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Also Arab nations as well as Americans.

[–]makesureimjewish 1 point2 points ago

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:'(

[–]jibbodahibbo 5 points6 points ago

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ewoks?

[–]tacopizzaking 1 point2 points ago

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buhh

[–]mambypambyland 2 points3 points ago

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Eunuchs?

[–]mambypambyland 2 points3 points ago

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Indoctrination at its finest.

[–]Mindle 0 points1 point ago

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Reminds me of Coraline, with the button eyes thing.

[–]smalleyes 0 points1 point ago

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is this not true about any system that is taught to a child from a parent?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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like what ?

[–]redspectacle 0 points1 point ago

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I throw that pic up every time we start a match in TF2 and someone always has to talk about it. It's fantastic.

[–]philosyche 0 points1 point ago

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The kid is Ben Tennyson.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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That is terrifying, and sadly true.

[–]Kainen1342 0 points1 point ago

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My fiance and I want a shirt and/or posters

[–]AddictiveSoup 0 points1 point ago

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Even though indoctrinating kids can end up bad, that isn't always the case. I was baptized when I was very young, and have gone to Christian school my entire life, but it never affected me. I am now an atheist, and my parents are fine and supportive of that.

[–]Nethius 0 points1 point ago

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I am so making this into a t-shirt.

[–]Brettersson 0 points1 point ago

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I work retail and was ringing a woman out for something when my manager comes over, on the phone, and asks the person on the phone for their name. the woman I'm ringing out without even hesitating says "derpina" and then soon realizes he was asking the person on the phone. she then makes a remark regarding her catholic school upbringing, and being taught to obey without thinking. I can't remember exactly what she said, but I had to hold myself back from agreeing too emphatically, so i just chuckled and nodded

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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Are you guys parodying yourselves?

[–]Jandklo 0 points1 point ago

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666 karma.

Fuck yeah

[–]thawafsty 0 points1 point ago

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This is an amazing piece of art and the artist needs to be recognized.

[–]ilovemagicmush 0 points1 point ago

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Creepy? Yes. Total propaganda? Yes.

[–]tecmason 0 points1 point ago

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As someone who has grown up in a Christian household, nothing about this picture rings true for me.

[–]mrmadagascar 0 points1 point ago

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Reminds me of the buttons from Coraline

[–]12358 0 points1 point ago

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Looks like the bible is making them narrow-minded.

[–]headcrusher9 1 point2 points ago

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Funny and very true :D

[–]twonicorn 1 point2 points ago

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So raising your children to be Christian makes you a horrible monster?

Funny, there are people who think that I'm some kind of horrible monster for raising three atheists. They think I've selfishly condemned my children to an eternity in hell. What else could they think? They know that what they believe in is right. Just like you do.

[–]Ericgzg 7 points8 points ago

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No, it isn't just like I do.

[–]poopyfinger 1 point2 points ago

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You know what is sad, I have to sort the comments in this subreddit by most controversial to get ones that actually are halfway decent for a conversation, the top ones are usually just more self-affirmation.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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Well if you forced your children to be atheists then they have every right to be mad at you. But, if you taught your children basic critical thinking skills I would assume that they rejected the silly notion of gods/goddesses when it was first brought up.

[–]twonicorn 0 points1 point ago

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I don't think you have to do much in the way of indoctrinating children. They are highly influenced by their parents. I never told my children that there was no god. I told them that some people believe in god and some people don't and that I'm one of the ones who doesn't. They all believed in god when they were small, and I never discouraged that. When they got older and decided that they didn't believe anymore, I didn't high five them or welcome them to the team or anything, but I have no doubt that my beliefs influenced theirs.

While I know there are parents who hammer christianity into their kids' brains, you can't make the assumption that all christians do this. Just like they shouldn't assume that, as an atheist, I forbid my kids to believe in god.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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You seem to be forgetting the fundamental difference (that causes parents to indoctrinate their kids) between atheism and theism (christianity in particular)

A Christian parent who has a child that doesn't believe has a child that is going to Hell. This is what the majority of christians (at least in America) believe. This is why Parents indoctrinate their kids.

An atheist parent who has children that believe in God has a child that isn't being completely rational, and is not using critical thinking skills in all areas of his life.

This is how I can assume christians bash their delusions into their kids, and atheists don't.

You being an atheist likely had very little to do with your kids becoming atheists. Your kids probably just grew out of it (as you weren't forcing God on them) like they did Santa Claus.

[–]twonicorn 0 points1 point ago

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But here you're saying that only atheists are capable of rational, critical thinking, which is just not true.