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top 200 commentsshow 500

[–]andrewheins 222 points223 points ago*

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Evil has no creed, religion, race or colour. It's a disease that can infect anyone, at any time, and we all fall prey to it occasionally.

Religion isn't a vaccine for evil any more than science or wealth or beauty is. The best you can do is be self-critical and fight it when you find it in yourself.

[–]Crochetniac 102 points103 points ago

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Exactly. I know plenty of atheists who don't donate a damn thing because it's their money and who gives a fuck about cancer, diabetes, AIDS, etc. research? Who cares about the homeless and hungry? What does it matter if it's children who suffer?

I know a lot of Christians who will donate their last dollar to a good cause. My church back home is very small, and when a disaster strikes we all pull together and help what we can. We cut out the necessities at church, don't run the fan and have the AC set as high as we can manage (and we're in AZ, so this is no small feat). My pastor, who has a lot of kids, will refuse his paycheck even though he puts in well over 40 hours/week for the church and will instead spend extra time at his fathers body shop putting in work so that he can feed his family that way so that the church can continue to function when we're doing poorly. I know Christians who have dedicated their whole lives to charity work and rely on the Lord for where their next meal comes from.

I also know Atheists who give all that they can manage, and Christians who won't give their pocket change. Although I feel that God can and does encourage people to be charitable, you cannot go off of the actions of one Christian and judge Christianity as a whole. There are so many Christians who don't follow what the bible actually teaches, they spread hate and are greedy when they're supposed to spread love and be charitable, and the sad part is that they do so in God's name. Take the WBC for instance, I'm Christian and I think that they're fucking crazy because of the hatred their church spews out of it's ass. The same goes for Atheism, you can't use one Atheist as an example for all of them. You can't meet one atheist who is nice and friendly and think "Man these atheists are all awesome". You can't meet an atheist who is a total asshole and think "Wow, atheists all suck, just like this guy."

It just doesn't work.

[–]influenztial 27 points28 points ago

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You aren't the person this is typically directed at. It's more for the folk who think anyone without a belief in god is intrinsically evil.

Not to make the point that all the people of a certain group are this way, but "you can be good without god".

[–]Crochetniac 29 points30 points ago

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I understand that, but I have also come across a lot of atheists, and people of all religions, who assume that all Christians are evil and bad and full of themselves and self-righteous and blah blah blah.

This poster may be somewhat effective in poking fun at those Christians who actually are like that, and might possibly get them to think, but I think more than anything it also helps justify people who do assume all Christians feel that way. I feel insulted that when people find out I'm Christian they cringe, like I'm all of a sudden going to change from the person they knew previously, I had one person say "You're Christian? Just don't shove all that bible bullshit in my face like the rest of the cunts do" Umm, excuse me?! I barely knew this person and we were getting along fine before that. Ignorant Christians making ignorant judgments about all atheists are no better and no worse than ignorant atheists making ignorant judgments about all Christians.

[–]RLBAEB 3 points4 points ago

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I get the same as an agnostic theologian. From both atheists and religious people. And still I fight for the right to treat people the right way.

Don't draw all these borders on the map, man. Behave, and don't bullshit anyone. Right?

It's not about religion in cases like this. It's about the people who benefits in dollars or esteem from other people being naive or gullible or terrified. As opposed to atheists, agnostics, religious, and non-thinkers when they're doing whatever is the human benevolent act in a certain situation.

Big difference. We are all just 'persons'.

Thank You for your attention! (now go do something nice to semeone else and enjoy your life)

: )

[–]Kalium 1 point2 points ago

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I understand that, but I have also come across a lot of atheists, and people of all religions, who assume that all Christians are evil and bad and full of themselves and self-righteous and blah blah blah.

You know where we get this from? From the silence of the many decent Christians. If I was to go find someone standing up to a street preacher spewing bile and hatred, my experience is that this brave soul would most likely not be Christian.

I've spent more than my share of time standing up to street preachers. I can't think of a single instance where someone I didn't know to be an atheist joined me.

You are, sadly, judged by your fellows. And so are we.

[–]thetaprime 5 points6 points ago

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Long time religious crackpot here (I think that's the term used around here). I just wanted to say that you nailed it on the head.

I offer you a high-five sir!

[–]sartfm 65 points66 points ago

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Good friend of mine was recently hired as one of Warren's C level execs, apparently he's about as nice a guy as you can ever meet.

[–]Wilhelm_Amenbreak 37 points38 points ago

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On a similar note, I used to work as one of Warren G's regulators. He was always a dick and made us walk his dog, Nate.

[–]SuminderJi 15 points16 points ago

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He was awesome in the Office.

[–]kopo27 -1 points0 points ago

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Didn't he disown his granddaughter because she didn't believe in capitalism?

[–]mellonandenter 33 points34 points ago

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She was in some documentary and said some stuff and I guess he was pissed that she was dumb enough to be lured by the producers into using HIS celebrity to get their point across.

[–]kopo27 1 point2 points ago

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Yes, I saw the documentary, this is where I heard this.

[–]dukerutledge 29 points30 points ago

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It was because she used his celebrity (which he abhors) to gain attention and further her career while also insulting him. He agreed to pay for her education on the grounds that she did not do that. She broke their agreement and continues to do so afterwards.

[–]notanotherpyr0 3 points4 points ago

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And do not forget that she is his ex-step-granddaughter. Someone who he didn't really have to disown in the firstplace because they no longer had any real relation and if he didn't support her any more because she was no longer family nobody would have batted an eye.

[–]Conde_Nasty 11 points12 points ago

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This reads like a Fox News headline...

[–]derpilicious 13 points14 points ago

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wasn't his biological granddaughter. she was his son's stepdaughter, i believe.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]smpx 7 points8 points ago

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Pat Robertson is almost comically evil. Like something you'd watch in a children's cartoon or something. Check out his wiki sometime and you would be amazed at just the length he'd go to fuck over the world.

For instance, he once held a charity drive to collect money for Haiti, and then used that money to buy a plane to ship blood diamonds from African warlords who paid him in exchange for selling them medical supplies that were for kids.

That's not being cruel, it's kind of ridiculously evil.

[–]tecknomarco 88 points89 points ago

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Saying your a christian is quite easy. Acting like one on the other hand...

[–]cd7k 93 points94 points ago

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"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ" - Gandhi.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points ago

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You spelled GANDHI right. That's rare around these parts. Thanks.

[–]tecknomarco 20 points21 points ago

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You dress in your best clothing, get in your SUV drive past homeless and hungry people to hear a sermon on how to be more like Christ. Boggles the mind

[–]shamy52 32 points33 points ago

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Yes, that's exactly what all Christians do every Sunday.

[–]Crochetniac 16 points17 points ago

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Yup, on Sundays I actually refuse to go to church until I've passed at least 3 homeless people to not help. It takes up a hell of a lot of gas sometimes.

[–]cd7k 4 points5 points ago

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Exactly this. The Bible, quite clearly states that if you're rich and materialistic you're not getting to Heaven, but that doesn't stop Christians presuming to know what God 'really meant'. Sure, he meant a camel walking through an archway... nothing to do with you giving up your wealth...

[–]KuztomX 4 points5 points ago

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Doesn't say you are not getting into heaven. It says that the poor on earth will be rewarded most and the rich will be like the poor. You are basically judged based on your attachment to earthly, materialistic things.

To elaborate, heaven will not be like earth. So if you are attached to earthly things, you will feel most left out, so to speak.

[–]cd7k 5 points6 points ago

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Mark 10:25 (as Nadrik mentions) or Matthew 19:24 was what I had in mind:

"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

[–]Nadrik 1 point2 points ago

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Mark 10:25 disagrees.

[–]soyabstemio 11 points12 points ago

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Writing or typing you're a Christian is not so easy.

[–]dem358 5 points6 points ago

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You're

[–]Crochetniac 3 points4 points ago

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your a christian is quite easy

My a Christian is not easy! I'm not even sure what an a Christian is. Is it anything like a b Christian or a c Christian?

[–]KayWho 4 points5 points ago

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you're*

[–]Ilktye 1 point2 points ago

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I don't believe in God or Christ as his son, but the Bible (like all similar texts) has some pretty good points stated as being said by Christ. They are probably copied from earlier texts but what's the difference.

If everyone would think how they would like themselves to be treated, I believe the world would be a better place.

So actually you can act like a christian should, even if you are not.

[–]Cituke 10 points11 points ago

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You need a concept of what a Christian is supposed to act like before we can talk about that kind of statement. That's an issue unto itself. People conceive what Christianity is supposed to be as this all rainbows and gum drops.

They seem to forget that Christ preached to hate yourself and your family, at times says we should still follow old testament law, has fine bitches (not sure if that's the original hebrew wording) pouring expensive perfume over him

[–]nikoliko66 21 points22 points ago

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context is everything, the passage is about you should hate yourself or family in relative terms to how one should love God. but wtv, bash away

[–]kyothine 8 points9 points ago

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I think the people who downvote you don't quite understand what you're saying.

Cituke is trying to say:** Who is a "True Christian?"** The answer: No one. The only difference between extremists and moderates is that extremists follow the bad parts of the Bible and the moderates follow the good ones.

[–]Spotpuff 0 points1 point ago

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Who differentiates between "good" and "bad" parts of the bible? Why do followers get to pick and choose? Shouldn't they just blindly obey the thing since it's the word of "god"? Even when the bible contradicts itself?

[–]Cituke -1 points0 points ago

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I'm more saying that what is a 'true Christian' is impossibly subjective, but if we're going off of what's in the bible, you're not going to end up with this warm and fuzzy idea that everybody like to have.

I always love when people downvote but don't reply. I offer citations of what is actually preached by Christianity and practiced by Jesus and apparently that's not what Christianity is about?

[–]nonumbers 3 points4 points ago

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[–]penthehuman 2 points3 points ago

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[–]xtirpation 369 points370 points ago

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I like how this image subtly implies that atheists are great and Christianity is bad when really there are douchebags in all religious beliefs.

[–]echeese 86 points87 points ago

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The third one wasn't part of the campaign for the first two. I think it's meant to show Christians that atheists aren't monsters without morals.

[–]G_Force 29 points30 points ago

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That's an interesting take that, as a Christian, puts the whole thing in a new light for me. In the end, it's more a positive for the secular than a smear against the religious. Thanks for the new perspective.

[–]Zariwoop 5 points6 points ago

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As part of the group that did these, the comment above yours represents the correct interpretation. :)

When we originally posted the ads on r/atheism we got a really positive response and someone on there created the third image.

[–]Bamont 19 points20 points ago

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Warren Buffet is an agnostic. Bill Gates is, more or less, also an agnostic.

It's a bit misleading. I think it's not about showing that atheists aren't monsters with morals - but that you do not need Christianity (or any religion, for that matter) in order to be a good person.

[–]solquin 14 points15 points ago

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I hate to be pedantic, but the term agnostic is rarely used correctly, and it's being misapplied here, in the sense you are claiming those two are not atheists.. An agnostic is someone who thinks it is impossible to know if there is a god(s), which is a very different view from someone who says that they simply do not know. True agnosticism isn't actually compatible with the Christian religious tradition. In Christianity, God is known to interact with humans. If God came and interacted with you, you would then know that God existed, would you not? Then certainly it is possible to know of God's existence. In this case, the only thing you could say is that you can't know that God doesn't exist, but that's a vacuous statement that applies to any proposed entity that is not logically inconsistent. You can be agnostic about an entity that only exists outside this universe, but not one that actively interacts with the universe.

In any case, both those who do not know and those who do not think you can know fall into the set of atheists. An atheist is simply anyone who lacks a theistic belief. Since having a theistic belief would contradict the "I don't know" part of agnosticism/I-dont-know-ism, you can safely call people in those categories atheists.

Now, you may have heard them call themselves agnostics, or even denied that they were atheist, even though they admit they lack a belief in god. This isn't uncommon, as misuse of agnosticism as it's own religious category is pretty widespread. There's also a pretty high negative connotation associated with the word atheist, so a lot of atheists prefer to call themselves something else.

[–]NickTheNewbie 1 point2 points ago

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What do you call a person who desperately wants to believe there is a god because they're incredibly scared of death.

[–]gmick 2 points3 points ago

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Personally, I find comfort in oblivion.

[–]fpif 1 point2 points ago

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How often do you find other people who feel that way? I do, but very few other people seem to agree with me.

[–]gmick 4 points5 points ago

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Practically never. People are willing to believe in a vengeful, petty, jealous and cruel god that might sentence them to an eternity of torment if it means they can be immortal. It really makes no sense to me. I'm fine knowing that I'm a biological marvel (along with the rest of humanity), but will ultimately die and cease to exist like every other animal.

I recently had to have 4 stents put in due to blockages in my coronary arteries. While in the ER giving blood, my pulse and BP bottomed out and I flatlined for over 30 seconds. My heart restarted on its own and I had strong convulsions. As far as I could tell, I passed out. There was nothing in between. If it had ended there, I would have never known. Lights out. Nothing more. (FYI, I'm in rehab now and doing well)

[–]bollvirtuoso 2 points3 points ago

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Human.

[–]CMEast 1 point2 points ago

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If they want to believe but don't then they are atheist. Any one that doesn't believe in a god is an atheist.

[–]Svanhvit 1 point2 points ago

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For some reason I tend to see a lot of atheists use agnostic people as their idols. Bill Maher comes to mind as one of them. He has claimed to be agnostic, but he is the go to guy when people want to decry anything that has the word faith in it.

[–]Treberto 11 points12 points ago

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Protip: most atheists are agnostic.

[–]the_scorpion_stings 1 point2 points ago

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"Agnosticism is the view that certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—are unknown or unknowable." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

"Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

[–]Nadrik 1 point2 points ago

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There is no such thing as an "agnostic". Why? Because that does not answer the question of belief. You either believe (theist), or you don't (atheist). Knowing does not enter into the equation, and frankly, anyone saying they know is not to be trusted.

[–]Nadrik 1 point2 points ago

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Actually, I shouldn't say there's no such thing. Rather, everyone is agnostic. Again, anyone claiming to know is wrong/crazy.

[–]thatwasntababyruth 1 point2 points ago

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Pretty much everyone i've met who identifies as either religious or atheist claims their way is correct and the others are wrong. They might not persecute you for it, but they do believe they are correct. They KNOW its correct, even if it might not be according to others, thats what makes you religious in the first place, having the faith that what you believe is completely correct.

That said, i'm agnostic. My belief is that nobody should have the audacity to think they can be correct on religious matters, and that really, none of us should give a shit.

[–]pheel23 380 points381 points ago

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I take the message as, being a "Christian" doesn't automatically give you the moral high ground. Too many people judge another's character on weather someone is Christian or not and IMHO that's a pretty ineffective way to choose those in your life or who to place trust in.

[–]potatolicious 11 points12 points ago

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Not only that, it's a very common belief amongst some evangelical Christians that morality is derived from belief in a higher power, and that in the void of spirituality (a.k.a. without the fear of God) morality breaks down.

This is basically a refutation of that (IMO, completely stupid) claim.

[–]ALaccountant 53 points54 points ago

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I think being "Christian" is about how you act not how you say. Unfortunately many people refer to themselves as Christian but their acts betray their lie.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points ago

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So, good atheists are Christians?

[–]nonumbers 59 points60 points ago

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No true Scotsman amirite?

[–]Caleth 20 points21 points ago

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Not necesarrily I think ALaccountant is going more with the quote from Gandhi (I think it was him.) "I love your Christ, if only more Christians would act Christ-Like." Possibly paraphrase and misquoted but that is the summation.

Being Christian is to simply be part of a group, to truly live the life Jesus asked us to aspire to is wholly more than just being part of the group.

Now maybe I'm projecting on to his statement but that's what I took away from it.

[–]Taylor645 20 points21 points ago

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just for clarification, the quote is "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

[–]Caleth 1 point2 points ago

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Thank you. I knew I was wrong but didn't want to interrupt my train of thought for fear of losing it.

[–]ALaccountant 3 points4 points ago

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You are right :)

[–]luke10_27 18 points19 points ago

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There is no Christian who is able to perfectly live out the Christian ideal. Many Christians are sincerely trying. There are other "christians" who go to church because it's a good place to make business contacts, or because it creates a positive image about them, which they then use for political or financial gain. Most of the time, the ones who give Christianity a bad name are the phonies.

[–]Fyzzle 14 points15 points ago

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No, being "Christian" means you have certain beliefs like Jesus died on the cross for your sins. The bible is obtuse and confusing so people can pretty much act however they want and are able to justify it if they don't have someone like the church to interpret for them. Even then there are many churches with many interpretations.

Being "Good" is about how you act and is independent of your religious beliefs.

[–]discipula_vitae 12 points13 points ago

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The term Christian came around coming from the words "little Christ." Being a Christian means striving to act as Christ act. It's more than just a belief, or at least it used to be more than a belief.

[–]thegravytrain 0 points1 point ago*

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No, being "Christian" means you have certain beliefs like Jesus died on the cross for your sins.

Sometimes being Christian just means your parents are or your cultural identity is fused with being Christian. (Italians/Irish with the Roman Catholic Church)

Edit: To make it clear, this is an observation not a recommendation...

[–]boozecruisin 4 points5 points ago

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It shouldn't. Although I disagree with him about many things, this is one the points Richard Dawkins argues that I think is bang on. There is no such thing as a "Christian child" any more than there is such thing as a "Republican child". Being Christian is a decision, not an ethnicity or an innate part of your identity in any way. You should not be called a Christian, Muslim of atheist just because your parents were. You reach a point in your life where you decide your religious beliefs for yourself, and after that point people can refer to you with monikers such as these. Anything before that is indoctrination.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points ago*

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I grew up in a Christian family and one thing that's always pissed me off about my childhood was this: when I was six years old my parents sat me down in the kitchen with my whole family standing around me and asked me if I was ready to accept Jesus into my heart. Naturally, seeing my family want me to do it and being in that position, I said of course. And we prayed and I officially had Jesus inside of me, or whatever.

I was six fucking years old. I later went to Christian schools and brought this up to people when I was seen as a "bad Christian", got into a huge debate with like 20 people all throwing their doctrines at me. Fortunately I'd been challenging my faith rather than being comfortable in ignorance, so I'd done a lot of studying of the religion and knew a lot of their arguments already and ways to challenge them back.

These people call themselves faithful when they're really just indoctrinated, they call themselves strong when they've got no free will. Regardless of the religious aspects, that sort of brainwashing in any regard is fucked up and I'm ashamed to be from a family that took part in it.

edit - I still have an issue w/ organized religion, but I do believe in God even today. I don't think that my issues with fellow Christians should influence my beliefs in negative or positive ways, it's something personal and internal to me.

[–]ALaccountant 0 points1 point ago

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Well I am a Christian and believe in Jesus with all of my heart. There are those who I would say are not Christian, although that is not for me to decide, and give us a bad name. Those people that I would say are Christian generally happen to be exceedingly nice and forgiving people. I wish people on Reddit in general would stop bashing Christianity but instead bash the people who choose to behave how they do.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points ago

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But there are problems in the world that directly result from Christianity. Faith-healers letting children die. ID being taught in schools and "teach the controversy". Gay people oppressed. Books burned. And no matter how lovely and nice Christian people may be, their organizations do some terrible things. So, maybe we shouldn't bash Christians, because they are just people trying to muddle through life like the rest of us, but Christianity is definitely worthy of bashing.

[–]whitedawg 31 points32 points ago

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This ad is targeted at Christians who believe that god is necessary for good and the absence of god is necessary for (or the same as) evil. People who don't believe that usually already recognize that the goodness of a person is rather independent of their religious beliefs.

[–]Drewman43 3 points4 points ago

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the goodness of a person is rather independent of their religious beliefs.

Both Theists and Atheists could benefit from this statement.

[–]Zariwoop 10 points11 points ago

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I'm a member of the group that made these ads, and our point was as others here have said. Being irreligious doesn't make you immoral. The third panel is actually the work of a Redditor in response to the first time the ads were posted on here, and at some point ended up being added to a picture with the other two.

[–]dcfogle 36 points37 points ago

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it's not really all that subtle

[–]MananWho 8 points9 points ago

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No, the image is implying that some people can be good even without religious beliefs, and that some people can be evil even though they have faith in god.

Essentially, it's showing that religion in itself has little to no effect on how "good" or "moral" a person is. Sure, they picked only positive images for atheists and negative ones for Christians, but that's only to challenge the common misconceptions that Christians are generally good and atheists are evil.

[–]SystemOutPrintln 2 points3 points ago

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Exactly, thats why I have no religious beliefs ;)

[–]davy_crockett 3 points4 points ago

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No, it doesn't. It implies that atheists can be good and religious people can be bad.

[–]mkbrangan 2 points3 points ago

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it's not subtle.

[–]gmick 4 points5 points ago

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Defensive much? The only thing I took from it was that you don't need a god or the threat of eternal torture to be a good person and having them doesn't prevent evil in the least.

[–]dhaft88 1 point2 points ago

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I think it implies that atheists are on par with christians, but if the point is to make atheists appear to be better than christians then this I do not agree with. There's no need to say anyone is better than anyone else based on religious belief.

[–]Bad_Sex_Advice 1 point2 points ago

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This was a cross post from r/atheism, so that's probably why.

[–]MomoTheCow 1 point2 points ago

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You'd like this clip, from a Chris Hedges/Christopher Hitchens debate about religion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re3d0hiM4EQ

Hedges also likes to quote Reinhold Niebuhr on this particular issue: "Religion is a good thing for good people and a bad thing for bad people."

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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This is known as cherry picking

[–]Cituke 0 points1 point ago

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I only kind of agree. What we have to take into account is proportions. If I say '99% of polar bears are disruptive to towns and 1% of black bears are disruptive to towns' I could make a statement like 'there are disruptive bears in both species', but I'd be missing the point.

That being said I don't agree with the pic either as it's using example evidence rather than statistical evidence.

[–]TeaAddiction 1 point2 points ago

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If I remember correctly these images are somewhat of a counterargument to people not being able to have good morals without the belief in god, heard in statments such as: I would murder and/or steal if I didn't believe in god. The argument is put in such a way that it gives a premise of what "good" is that most people agree with and pointing out that these attributes exist in people that lack the belief in God (or a god).

With this aspect in mind the statement 'there are disruptive bears in both species' doesn't work very well because the point is that there are disruptive black bears.

Then there is a whole other debate regarding what belief or lack thereof causes people to do certain actions.

Hence these images work very well as a counterargument even if it speaks very little of the overall situation with christians and atheists (the picture leaves the possibility open that the rest of all christians are saintly, generous and is all that is good in the world and all of the atheists excluding those two mentioned are murdering sociopathic assholes even if that is not the case).

[–]Cituke 2 points3 points ago

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We're basically talking about absolute statements at this point, which example evidence is a fine rebuttal for, but I really don't hear people making the statement 'atheists can't be good'. I usually hear more of 'How can atheists know what is good?' rather than that.

[–]ThinkinFlicka 18 points19 points ago

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As a Christian, I am ashamed of some of the things other Christians are: closed minded, racist, and ignorant of science.

[–]Bjoernn 4 points5 points ago

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As a human being, I am ashamed of some of the things other peope are: close minded, racist, and ignorant of science.

FTFY. Please don't talk like only christians are like that.

[–]ramerica 2 points3 points ago

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...or you can just be a good person no matter what you believe in.

[–][deleted] 35 points36 points ago

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But, you see, Pat Robertson isn't a real Christian.

Literally how my entire family would respond were I to show them this image.

[–]EverGlow89 10 points11 points ago

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Well, he's not.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points ago

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And why not?

[–]AvidWikipedian 20 points21 points ago

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Because he is actively but indirectly killing people and breaking the golden rule. I'm an atheist but he's hardly a Christian if he doesn't even follow the Bible.

[–]whitedawg 19 points20 points ago

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By your definition, I don't think any Christians exist. If you can come up with one example of a Christian who follows every passage of the Bible, then your argument might have some merit.

[–]AvidWikipedian 9 points10 points ago

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Alright, I'll concede that. On the other hand, he doesn't even try to follow the Bible and live a just life.

[–]solquin 2 points3 points ago

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Living a just life has nothing to do with being a Christian, which is the whole point of the add, I'd say. Clearly, any moral person would admit that it would, in fact, be wrong to actually follow the Bible, even the New Testament. Given that he has to use something other than religion to judge that parts of his religion are wrong, then there must be some other source of moral judgement, and it must be separate from religion. Following that doesn't make someone more Christian, any more than it makes them more Jewish, or Hindi, or Muslim.

[–]logicalmonkey 1 point2 points ago

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christians are not supposed to follow all part of the bible, they are supposed to follow Christ's teachings, hence Christians. Fundies don't get this.

[–]yardglass 4 points5 points ago

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I think you'll find most christians don't follow the bible. Someone once told me that the bible was like an EULA, nobody actually reads it, they just click 'I agree' and move on.

[–]tivo17 7 points8 points ago

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Pretty sure that was reddit.

[–]danielvago 6 points7 points ago

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he doesn't even follow the Bible

Who in this world actually follows the bible?

Takes their children to the edge of town and stone them, if they are being unruly. Never eat seafood. Believe slavery is ok. Believe that people should be put to death for a lot of stupid reasons.

[–]helpingfriendlybook 5 points6 points ago

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Christ, Christ, Christ. Christian. Christian. The teachings of Christ. Christians follow the teaching of Christ. Christ never said those things, and indeed, said many things that would suggest he would find them abominable.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points ago*

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What interpretation of the Bible? You can't just focus on Matthew 7:12 and Luke 6:31 and say "That's it! That's all there is to Christianity!" From an objective point of view, those passages don't even make sense -

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. -- Matthew 7:12, NIV, other translations are similar

The fact that 4 of the 10 great commandments are specifically addressed towards worshiping God contradicts this. Is there any way to interpret those 4 as being a form of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"? No.

Same with so many of the other laws, such as the purity laws (e.g. food restrictions, cleanliness restrictions, virginity, etc.).

How is the Law's apparent acceptance of slavery in line with this 'Golden Rule'? How is Jesus' own refusal to condemn slavery, despite his parables and his culture clearly involving slavery, in line with this 'Golden Rule'?

he's hardly a Christian if he doesn't even follow the Bible.

Hmm.

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. -- Romans 3:20-24, NIV, emphasis mine

By your definition -- that is, whoever does not 'follow the Bible' is not a Christian -- then no one is a Christian. No one follows the Bible perfectly; no one even follows their own interpretation of the Bible perfectly.

Yet this passage very clearly states that "righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe"; if he simply believes, then he is righteous in God's sight regardless of his actions, or so claims the author of Romans. If being righteous in God's eyes does not make you a Christian, then what does?

I mean that - what is a definition of a Christian that applies to, and only to, Christians (i.e. includes all Christians, excludes all non-Christians)? And here you get to the crux of the matter: 'Christian' is a concept created by humans, and defined by humans. Like other human conceptions, the definition is a fluid, amorphous amalgamation of tradition that is really not definable in an objective fashion. Unlike the No True Scotsman case, where you can at least get a lot of people to agree on a definition of what a 'Scotsman' is that is demonstrable (someone who was born and raised in Scotland, for example), there is no easily defined tangible boundary for Christianity - only a vague notion of 'belief'.

Disclaimer: I'm an atheist who was raised in an extremely well-read Christian family. I've gone to Christian schools my entire life, including a Christian college with a seminary. I have no doubt that Pat Robertson considers himself to be a Christian, and that he has plenty of scripture to prove it to himself (and to the millions of those who follow/followed him as a Christian leader).

If you want to keep debating this, I'm game.

[–]ryanmarkphillips 1 point2 points ago

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This is awesome. Thanks for including references from the bible. It really helps ground these kinds of discussions... and I think it may be necessary IF we want christians and atheists to make any sort of progress through conversation.

I would contrast this with a Christian saying "I believe everything in the Bible is true" and an Atheist saying the exact opposite, and that being the end of the conversation.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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I have plenty of experience - from the other side of the fence. My parents, my schools, and my church all valued teaching me (and my peers) how to debate - and I mean debate, not argue.

I don't think they expected the outcome being a nearly-gnostic atheist, though.

[–]Merrydol 2 points3 points ago

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The bible contains so many passages that are contradictory to the point of being mutually exclusive that it is literally impossible to "follow the bible." Every Christian has their own interpretation of it, and a fair number of them assume any other interpretation is "not Christian." They're wrong, they're all Christian.

[–]EverGlow89 1 point2 points ago

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Because it couldn't be more obvious that he's only in it for the money. This man does not believe in God. If he did, he'd believe in Hell and that he's going there for such blatant manipulation.

This man is to Christianity as Nickelback is to music.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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Because it couldn't be more obvious that he's only in it for the money. This man does not believe in God. If he did, he'd believe in Hell and that he's going there for such blatant manipulation.

You misunderstand. You don't go to hell for actions; you go to hell for not believing - or so mainstream Christianity claims.

He likely believes that what he's done is good, and that he has received his finances from God (not scriptural, but plenty of Christians believe similarly) both as a reward for good deeds and to allow him to continue to fund the groups he founded or supports (e.g. the CBN).

[–]EverGlow89 5 points6 points ago

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I've met a lot of Christians and I've never met one that believes believing weighs more than your actions. No way.

[–]jdouglast 1 point2 points ago

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That's the logical fallacy called "No true Scotsman."

[–]DrDragun 10 points11 points ago

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It is only a fallacy under the condition that a universal claim is being forwarded, such as "a Christian would never use slave labor." If that's the case, then Pat Robertson is the counterexample, and it is fallacious to try to invalidate it with a "No true Scotsman" argument. But if the assertion ISNT universal, such as "Christians on average use slave labor less than X group" then it is NOT a fallacy to say Robertson is an outlier that doesn't represent the group (you need stats to disprove it).

[–]clanspanker 19 points20 points ago

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Need source for the slave labor accusation please. I will not use this picture unless I know it is accurate.

[–]eastb 21 points22 points ago

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[–]Mason11987 10 points11 points ago

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Sorry but I just don't see it. I see that he has or had a diamond mine, and he used planes to move equipment when saying he was doing other things. But this isn't the same as having slave labor.

[–]timothyjwood 12 points13 points ago

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Just don't use it. This picture is like a condom, once it's been used 30 or 40 times it's just no good anymore.

[–]Furthur 3 points4 points ago

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i cringe at the thought

[–]lemonpjb 12 points13 points ago

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I'm a Christian, and I don't believe that one's religious beliefs are intrinsic of their goodness. There are bad folks who are religious, and there are good folks that are nonbelievers. But the message this ad is sending is pretty heavily laden with snark.

[–]Pavementos 6 points7 points ago

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Uhh... strawman much?

[–]aoshjabro 5 points6 points ago

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I commend the philanthropist spirit of Gates and Buffet but I think this image is misleading. Not all atheists preform extraordinarily good acts and not all evangelicals are evil to the core.

[–]Ultramerican 2 points3 points ago

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Should have said for Pat, "...has God without good." or something more clever.

[–]ChicagoTed12 2 points3 points ago

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I feel that it is important to note that pointing that the richest Christian is also uncharitable is a somewhat obvious thing. If he were more charitable, he likely would not the wealthiest Christian.

[–]breakingeven 28 points29 points ago

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You'd think atheists are the most persecuted people in the history of earth with all the bitching they do about it on the internet.

[–]Haiku_attack 13 points14 points ago

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Well... historically they have been pretty persecuted. I mean, denying the existence of god, or challenging minor parts of scientific texts, hasn't really gone down too well throughout history, and still doesn't in a lot of places.

[–]pingas 5 points6 points ago

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That wasn't a haiku.

[–]Haiku_attack 5 points6 points ago

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神のこと、

信じないなら、

罰がある

[–]bdubaya 9 points10 points ago

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I don't know many kanji, so I'm just gonna read the hiragana and fill in the rest with ching-chongs

[–]realberbersilver 4 points5 points ago

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Well, they are one of the most widely disliked classes of people in the US. If we look at people's willingness to elect them if they are otherwise qualified, they fall behind homosexuals and those who have had extramarital affairs. Americans have a less favorable view of atheists than they do of Muslims.

Perhaps even more telling is the way atheists are portrayed in media, with this sort of condescending implication that atheists either really do believe in God, but are just mad at him, or were traumatized at some point and "lost" their belief. TVTropes has some good articles on atheists in media that help to show how condescendingly they're generally portrayed.

Sure, atheists weren't widely persecuted throughout history, but there weren't enough of them to be, and why does historical persecution even matter in this case? Christians were historically persecuted in some places, but you wouldn't describe American Christians as persecuted now.

Besides, of course it looks like all atheists are whiners. If you follow political and religious debates on the Internet, you only really see the bitchy ones, because the rest aren't as likely to bother coming on to say, "Hi, I'm a rather well-adjusted atheist who doesn't really care one way or another about Christians."

[–]rokic 2 points3 points ago

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Internet is whiner's heaven.

[–]dregofdeath 6 points7 points ago

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this is reposted every fucking week.

[–]Conchobair 12 points13 points ago

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Cherry picked false dichotomy.

We could put Stalin and Mao next to MLK Jr. and counter this point.

[–]KamehamehaWave 6 points7 points ago

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The point is only that being an atheist does not mean one is evil, nor does being a Christian make one good. Nobody is claiming that all Christians are evil, but many hold this belief about atheists.

[–]radardog 27 points28 points ago

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It would be easy to do the exact same thing portraying Christians as giving people and atheists as greedy d-bags. You just find 2 good Christians and 1 bad atheist and there you go. This image is worthless.

[–]danielvago 3 points4 points ago

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You're right. But if you just list Buffet and Gates, you could use that to show ignorant Christians that atheists are not evil, soulless, immoral people, by default.

[–]SOLUNAR 13 points14 points ago

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too bad they did not pick 2 good Christians and 1 bad Atheist. They picked two of the top three richest people in the world, and the RICHEST evangelist.

I believe it is a fair comparison.

[–]smok_e_wan_kenobie 5 points6 points ago

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Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. - Matthew 19:24

I think* Robertson is a great example of why Christ said this.

EDIT: Added 'I think' to indicate opinion

[–]kyothine 3 points4 points ago

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WOOSH it looks like you've FAILED to see the point of this image.

People already fucking know that Christians can be good people. The stereotype is that atheists are bad.

[–]ObamaisYoGabbaGabba 15 points16 points ago

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been to /r/atheism lately?

[–]pingas 9 points10 points ago

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unfortunately

[–]FruityPeebils 3 points4 points ago

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it's a sad, sad state of immense circlejerk over there

[–]realberbersilver 1 point2 points ago

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Yeah, but, despite what you may see on Reddit, atheists are a tiny segment of the American population. The idea that Christians are bad is a stereotype among part of the atheist community, but the prevailing stereotype among Americans in general is that atheists are bad people.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points ago

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Welcome to Reddit!

[–]ironcoffin 12 points13 points ago

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We get it Reddit. Atheist's are the chosen one and the best "religion" ever. I wish I felt this smart when I turned 17.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points ago

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Don't forget how edgy they are too!

[–]ShahabJafri 8 points9 points ago

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You are implying that being gentleman requires being a public donor .. While a true gentleman will donate and remain discreet .. So you cannot judge someone on these grounds ..

[–]ErasmusDarwin 3 points4 points ago

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While a true gentleman will donate and remain discreet

I get where you're coming from, but in this case, there was definite good served by the publicity. They've encouraged quite a few other billionaires to leave the bulk of their fortunes to charity: The Giving Pledge

[–]ObamaisYoGabbaGabba 4 points5 points ago

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You can't have 80 billion dollars and be discreet. Adding "true" makes you sound petty and not in the least bit "convincing" as a private donor.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points ago

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Its easy to be 'generous' if you are a billionaire and will never give away too much money to make yourself poor.

What isn't easy, is the money and personal effort that countless middle class and dirt poor Christians put into donations, soup kitchens, outreach programs, and responding to emergencies.

[–]goonerredandwhite 3 points4 points ago

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I swear the number of times i've seen this posted - i can count with all my fingers on one hand

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points ago

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this belongs in r/atheism/, motherfucker

[–]Flubb 9 points10 points ago

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On Buffett: "He did not subscribe to his family's religion. Even at a young age he was too mathematical, too logical, to make the leap of faith. He adopted his father's ethical underpinnings, but not his belief in an unseen divinity." --from Buffett: The Making of an American Capitalist, by Roger Lowenstein (Doubleday, 1995), page 13.

On Bill Gates:

  • David Frost: Do you believe in the Sermon on the Mount?
  • Bill Gates: I don't. I'm not somebody who goes to church on a regular basis. The specific elements of Christianity are not something I'm a huge believer in. There's a lot of merit in the moral aspects of religion. I think it can have a very, very positive impact.

Therefore while they don't necessarily believe the dogma of the religions involved, they still either draw their ethics from it, or at least believe it is important.

Pat Robertson is still a horrible man.

[–]jfudge 14 points15 points ago

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I feel that is an incredibly healthy stance for both of them to take. No one should argue that religions are all wrong, they have a number of extremely valuable moral and ethical teachings. It is the sign of an intelligent and rational human being to see the positives of religion even if you don't agree with it completely.

[–]SuminderJi 2 points3 points ago

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Every time I pose that argument I get downvoted on Reddit.

There is a good and bad in almost everything, and that is a subjective matter anyways.

[–]jfudge 2 points3 points ago

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I absolutely agree with you. I don't see what's so wrong with finding the good in things. Reddit doesn't have to be right.

[–]whitedawg 5 points6 points ago

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If you take away the dogma, the ethical underpinnings of most religions (the Golden Rule, etc.) are echoed in many non-religious ethical philosophies.

Additionally, it sounds like both Buffett and Gates are trying to honestly answer that they don't subscribe to religion without offending too many people.

[–]Flubb 1 point2 points ago

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I think once you earn $40B you probably stop caring what other people think ;)

BG has been described as an agnostic, so he doesn't quite qualify as an atheist. Warren Buffett is apparently qualified as an agnostic as well.

[–]VelvetSunset 1 point2 points ago

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What did the original third part say?

[–]linksrd008 1 point2 points ago

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I always see those "Good with God" things around NYC, I really want to make a website that asks if you are "Swell with Satan."

[–]terphusker 1 point2 points ago

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I live in Omaha and I had the extreme pleasure of meeting Warren. He stood outside a restraunt for a couple hours taking pictures with people in the middle of Feb in Nebraska. Needless to say it was cold as hell and he couldn't have been nicer. He is a person that everyone should aspire to be like.

[–]Jmoseph 1 point2 points ago

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Most of those TV evangelists aren't really serious Christians and should be called out for the frauds they are. It's offensive to other Christians like me.

[–]shrapnel09 1 point2 points ago

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Champaign-Urbana double-take. Get your ass back to /r/uiuc!

[–]cefm 1 point2 points ago

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Pat Robertson's douchebagginess is a proven fact and isn't directly related to his religious beliefs. He'd be a sonofabitch no matter what religion he was.

[–]_mjolnir_ 1 point2 points ago

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Well that's a load of shit.

But hey-- it was a great karma boost!

KILL ALL CHRISTIANS!!! YAY!!!! ATHEISTS ARE BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE!!!

[–]satereader 1 point2 points ago

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oh don't be so hyperbolic. No one said to kill Christians. We just want to sterilize them, so they can't reproduce, and affix small bells to them so they can't sneak up on us.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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this is why i hate the reddit athiest community. like it or not there are SO MANY GREAT RELIGIOUS PEOPLE! but that doesn't matter does it. i guess the religious christian group in my town that gives free rides if your too drunk to drive are just a bunch of assholes huh?

[–]cookiexcmonster 1 point2 points ago

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Too low of a sample size to make any sound conclusion. You could spend all day juxtaposing and it wouldn't mean anything.

This was posted in r/atheism quite a long time ago and one of the top comments pointed out that this was bullshit.

[–]THEMACGOD 1 point2 points ago

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The last part should say something like, "Pat Robertson is NOT good WITH god."

While I agree with the sentiment, that seems out of place as a conclusion.

[–]APPaholic47 1 point2 points ago

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I think if you study where the majority of charity comes from in America will will be from our American churches. Maybe not in the sums of billions of dollars like these men gave but in local charity that doesnt get reported. There is a family living in my Churches parsonage right now whos house burned down last month. They are living there rent and bill free and arent members of our church. I'm not preaching i just hate things like this that paint all christians in a negative light.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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I still don't know how 700 club stays on the air. How could anyone believe that idiot.

What does not surprise me, is that it made the move to ABC Family about the same time they turned into the 'Teen fucking' channel.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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If this gets reposted 15 more times, ill get it tattooed on my ass.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]Chargelot 1 point2 points ago

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Oh look, it's this again. I'm all for atheism, but this is cherry picking.

[–]MrCharizard 1 point2 points ago

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Good in the absence of god is better then good in the presence of it.

[–]Dexiro 1 point2 points ago

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Religion doesn't play that big a part in which people donate money ~ though you might find some extremists use their religion as an excuse to be complete assholes.

[–]DudeSuit54 1 point2 points ago

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I like that every time this is reposted, decent conversations are started.

[–]rillegas08 1 point2 points ago

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Who's Pat Robertson?

[–]akutabi 1 point2 points ago

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I'm just glad this caused open and intelligent discussion. Good job everyone.

[–]tripled153 2 points3 points ago

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You know, I'm not one to complain about reposts but this must be the 6th time I've seen this this month.

[–]CitizenPlusPlus 4 points5 points ago

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To be fair. Bill Gates has done many really, really terrible things with his charities including funding corporations who are making significant contributions to climate change, displacing indigenous farmers in Africa thus increasing starvation, and encourage the defunding of public schools to be replaced with charter schools that only a select few will be able to attend.

And to be honest, has there ever been an honest billionaire? There is no free lunch, which means this hoarding of wealth has been achieved by low balling his employees and over charging his customers. And taking advantage of state research which has been the significant source of his companies technology without giving anything back. And hundreds of hostile take overs and anti-trust violations.

[–]davy_crockett 6 points7 points ago

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displacing indigenous farmers in Africa thus increasing starvation

Do you have a source for this one?

[–]Furthur 1 point2 points ago

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by displacement he probably means.. payed them much more than their land is worth to utilize it for something else. It's usually how that goes

[–]NoNeedForAName 1 point2 points ago

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But it's simply not fair to give a person an economic profit and use resources in a way that maximizes benefit!

Oh, right. It's totally fair. My bad.

[–]ObamaisYoGabbaGabba 1 point2 points ago

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which means this hoarding of wealth has been achieved by low balling his employees and over charging his customers.

LOL, so Now Bill Gates is being accused of low wages? If you didn't add that piece of bullshit I'd have almost agreed with you but then I realized you're a half wit with just a bunch of internet knowledge and a misplaced rage.

There is so much uncitable bullshit in your post it just makes me even more disheartened by the state of real factual knowledge on reddit.

[–]finalcut 2 points3 points ago

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This is a pretty fucked up comparison. There are asshats in every category of life. Everything doesn't have to be an "us" vs "them.

[–]kittenmittons 1 point2 points ago

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seriously? again??

[–]BrokeRegistration 0 points1 point ago

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Shouldn't this go in /r/atheism or /r/christianity or something? There's a reason I don't subscribe to either one.

[–]stancoffyn -1 points0 points ago

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For fucks sake, can we stop reposting this? Sure it is a great thing to point out, but I have seen this posted at least 5 times this year, and it is fucking June.

[–]JayGatsby727 0 points1 point ago

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I'll just leave this here. Be sure to read the second page and final conclusion.

[–]PeaInAPod 1 point2 points ago*

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The whole image is full of bullshit.

  • Bill Gates Net Worth = $56 Billion.
  • Warren Buffet Net Worth = $47 Billion.
  • Pat Robertson Net Worth = (estimated at) $200 Million.

The way the image is laid out with 3rd richest on top and 2nd richest in the middle, it would have the average passerby assume the guy on the bottom is the richest man in the world when he is anything but.

As for the diamond scandal it is known that he did use aircrafts designated for charity use for personal use but people don't mention that he reimbursed the charity $400,000 for this.

He has also ran a charity since 1978 to provide food, water, and medical help to 3rd world countries.

And as for the slave labor comment? No one has any right to bitch about that. Factories for Apple were found to have child laborers as were factories for Walmart need I go on?

*edited to correct W. Buffet net work per satereader's post.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]lighter-pop 1 point2 points ago

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Actually yes, we do have a right to comment on a religious man using slave labor and supporting and receiving kick backs from Charles Taylor who committed many war crimes, all for the sake of money.

His reimbursement of $400,000 only came after he was busted by investigators. If he never got caught, he wouldn't have reimbursed it. That, and even after he reimbursed it there is still the matter of him lying to people about it. He made up how he was using those jets for Rwanda so he could get more money from donations.

Also, if you think child labor is the same thing as an African diamond mine, I suggest you do you some reading on the conditions. While I do not support child labor, it has actually been proven to cause a net benefit for the area. Not because it is a positive thing, but because otherwise the children would be kidnapped and sold off into human trafficking rings. African diamond mines contribute nothing to anyone but the people running the mine, it is common for people to be abducted and forced to work there. They work people without pay, barely any food, and literally to death.

While this graphic is a least a little sensationalist, it by no means absolves Pat Robertson of his transgressions. I don't care what type of charitable things he has done or the lack of charity by others, he is a bad person.

[–]SquirrelySquirrels 0 points1 point ago

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Fuck that guy.

[–]beebopboobee 0 points1 point ago

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warren buffett<3 what a gentlemen.

[–]Mason11987 0 points1 point ago

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How do you know how little or much he (Robertson) donated?

[–]birdablaze 0 points1 point ago

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I find it hard to believe that Pat Robertson has never donated money in his life. Though it could be said that if he is donating money it's from the purses of idiot Christians who thinking giving this man's business money will get them into heaven.