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[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]HermesTheMessenger 49 points50 points ago

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Wow.

Along those lines, backing your conclusion, it's well known to cultural anthropologists that OCD and shamanism go hand and hand. OCD tied to mysticism appears in about 1 out of 100 people on some significant level -- ideal for small tribal groups that typically have between a few dozen to just over 100 members. As one member of a tribe commented on their own shaman; 'I am so glad we have one, but not more. Only one.'

The old testament priestly sections are about as OCD and shamanistic as they get; they talk about where to put the blood from the sacrifices (right hand side only: ear lobe, thumb, toe), and what is 'clean' and 'un-pure'. Who can enter the temple, how many days women must sequester themselves after mensus, ... and on and on and on.

The same pattern shows up in tribal groups through the shamans and religious institutions. Yet, outside of those people and groups nobody thinks like this except for people with a great deal of OCD. Those people become the shamans. They become the priests. Or, they are banished/executed/... .

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points ago

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I'd like to know more about this. Sources?

[–]Folye 36 points37 points ago

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Evolution, religion, schizophrenia and the schizotypal personality

It's 60 minutes long, but very, very well worth it.

[–]miketheamazing 3 points4 points ago

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This is excellent.

[–]TheBowerbird 2 points3 points ago

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I love Sapolsky so much. Kudos for linking to this, as it is what I instantly thought of.

[–]UpontheEleventhFloor 4 points5 points ago

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Wow, this guy is great, I'd never heard of him before. Thanks very much for this, much appreciated.

[–]HermesTheMessenger 4 points5 points ago

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One of many;

As for the OT priestly sections being linked to OCD ... that might be my own observation, though it's painfully obvious and I likely picked it up somewhere (possibly from the Sapolsky lecture).

[–]Masher88 7 points8 points ago

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"Get it wrong, and people will call you a cult...get it right, and maybe people won't go to work on your birthday." -Proff. Sapolsky

[–]rex_gildo 2 points3 points ago

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there are lots of different forms of shamanism, in south america its mostly based around psychedelic drugs while inuit or sora shamans mostly rely on trance through meditation. in some societies there is one chosen shaman, in others there are lots of shamans who dont even need trances. there have indeed been found links between imagery provided by schizophrenics and general shamanic drawings from around the world. BUT this doesnt mean that shamans are schizophrenic, it means that they can get into a state of mind that is similar to mental illness.

[–]invisime 5 points6 points ago

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they can get into a state of mind that is similar to mental illness.

From personal experience, I know that sleep deprivation is a cheap and effective way to do this.

[–]timothydrake 1 point2 points ago

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I never thought about that and I have OCD. That makes a lot of sense.

[–]Spraypainthero965 0 points1 point ago

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Wow I never made this connection before but it makes perfect sense.

[–]Shadow16nh 35 points36 points ago

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Jebus. This should probably be its own thread.

[–]painperdu 9 points10 points ago

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It made you a great writer, though!

[–]ghanima 7 points8 points ago

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Since no one else who has responded to you has said this, it sounds like your mom has what my mom does -- Paranoid Schizophrenia. I didn't have it as bad as you did, growing up.

I found that knowing there was a name for it, and that other people have it (and thus, other children have experienced the same type of Hell) made me feel less alone.

[–]wynden 1 point2 points ago

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Why do Paranoid Schizophrenics or otherwise medically delusional parents retain custody of children? I know that the alternatives are no bed of roses either, but these stories make even foster care sound viable...

[–]ghanima 2 points3 points ago

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In my case, my mother had "custody" because my father and she stayed together -- nobody was fighting for alternate custodial arrangements. This probably happens a lot more often than you'd think.

There is a lot of misinformation about mental illness in general and in my case, the problem was that my father decided to pretend the illness didn't exist. So, my sister and I remained -- effectively -- trapped by our circumstances.

[–]dilloj 2 points3 points ago

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My story is very similar to ghanima and dwaxe. My mother, who is also a paranoid, delusional schizophrenic also retained custody of my sister and I until her extended prison visit.

My father was 10 years sober, but a recovering alcoholic. My mother is also foreign born (Romanian). Her illness was not fully diagnosed until too late, and a lot of her symptoms were choked up to her being a foreigner, not crazy. sigh The custody system is really stacked against fathers, it seems.

[–]morningstar5 5 points6 points ago

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My mom was crazy too, and she killed herself by jumping off our balcony, but you had it worse.

[–]dilloj 0 points1 point ago

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You have the gift of closure. I'm still waiting.

[–]morningstar5 0 points1 point ago

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It just occurred to me that my post may have sounded sarcastic. It wasn't mean to; I seriously think that dwaxe had it worse, because of the abuse he/she suffered.

[–]Vectoor 3 points4 points ago

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Oh... Gives karma

[–]login_or_register_ 3 points4 points ago

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It must be difficult hating someone you ought to love. :(

[–]dilloj 1 point2 points ago

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Only during the holidays, for me anyway.

[–]MxM111 0 points1 point ago

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Hating is always easier than loving.

[–]jamescagney 1 point2 points ago

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Using rational dialog to conquor any kind of faith fails almost all of the time. Self-delusion is omnipotent and omnipresent.

[–]iKs279 0 points1 point ago

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Surely religious faith is not inherent in a healthy brain and there is no reason Americans would have a less healthy brain than Europeans. Therefore it must have been learnt, it must be "software" and the multiple stories on r/atheism show it can successfully be removed (through software).

[–]Frostxtq 0 points1 point ago

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It fails almost all of the time at that specific time when you try to conquer it, but it doesn't mean that it completely failed. How do you think that most atheists came to be? Most renounced religion because of rational dialog, not necessarily with another person, but within themselves, although for a number of us, it did start with hearing different opinions from other people.

[–]wynden 1 point2 points ago

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drew a heart on the cover, and wrote “I love you”. When she found it hidden in my room and ripped it up before Mother’s Day came around, she disparaged it

My mum once made an illustration of a dragon and mailed it to her sister as a gift. Her sister burned it on the grounds that it was Satanic. She regretted it in later years as well, and they loved each other, but my mum will never forget it.

[–]fairy_nuff 5 points6 points ago

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God damn...

Who the crap put these onions here?!

[–]Leechifer 3 points4 points ago

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We have them to wear looped around our belt--which is a style that's making a comeback, if you haven't heard.

[–]jamescagney 1 point2 points ago

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You're still wearing onions? Good lord, what is this, 2009? Get with it!

[–]Philo_T_Farnsworth 4 points5 points ago

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Who the crap put these onions here?!

Please promise me that you will never use that meme again.

[–]fairy_nuff 1 point2 points ago

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No promises.

[–]Daemon_of_Mail 0 points1 point ago

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Wouldn't it technically be illegal for someone with a known severely destructive mental illness to raise a child? Oh wait, I actually know several people like that who still have their children, so I guess not.

[–]andbruno 0 points1 point ago

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You didn't call child social services why?

[–]LordWorm 61 points62 points ago

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HEY WAIT THOSE ARE THE SAME THING

[–]canad93 47 points48 points ago

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I have faith that they are, in fact, different.

[–]Hawtre 27 points28 points ago

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Insanity!

[–]tellu2 5 points6 points ago

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No...he's just devout :P

[–]toastee 2 points3 points ago

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If your beliefs were founded in reality it wouldn't be faith!

[–]Twevy 0 points1 point ago

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Nice try, George Michael.

[–]_pupil_ 3 points4 points ago

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Religion is a 'gateway' psychosis

- Dave Foley

[–]oedipusanonymous 127 points128 points ago

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The difference between faith and insanity is only scale. I think it is something like this:

1 - insane

1000 - sect

10,000 - cult

100,000+ - religion

[–]Pufflekun 98 points99 points ago

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“The only difference between a cult and a religion is the amount of real estate they own.”

-Frank Zappa

[–]BigPapiC-Dog 10 points11 points ago

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You sure that was Frank Zappa? I always attribute that quote to Martin Luther King, Jr.

[–]theRealStormDawg 5 points6 points ago

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Pretty sure it was Mark Twain, right? Or George Carlin.

[–]finnurtg 3 points4 points ago

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Wasn't it Abraham Lincoln? Didn't he say everything?

[–]longhairedhippie 0 points1 point ago

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You guys are all wrong. It was Confucius

[–]dbhanger 20 points21 points ago

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Confucius started every sentence with "Confucius say", so it couldn't have been him.

[–]rugtoad 3 points4 points ago

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Confucius? I don't think so...that definitely sounds like JFK.

[–]Twevy 1 point2 points ago

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Nope. Definitely Snoop Dogg.

[–]histumness 1 point2 points ago

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You think a southern baptist minister said that?

[–]abk0100 0 points1 point ago

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MLK was actually guilty of a lot of plagiarism, so it could be both.

[–]Hypersapien 0 points1 point ago

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I don't think MLK was ever that snarky.

[–]twofazed 4 points5 points ago

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-Michael Scott

[–]ranthria 27 points28 points ago

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Maybe switch sect and cult, but yeah that's pretty much it

[–]ColdSnickersBar 2 points3 points ago*

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I disagree that it's all about size. I think it's a bit more complex than this. If this were true, then why would, for instance, some small branches of Christianity be considered "cults" and others not? The Quakers are usually not considered a cult. The Branch Davidians are.

Many people think "cult" when they hear an amount of "strangeness" in the "cultists" beliefs. Now, the first thought is, obviously, that "strangeness" is arbitrary, right? Christianity, when viewed from the outside in, is just as strange as Hindu or Islam or whatever, right?

Well, I think not, actually.

If you think of religions as memes, in the Dawkins sense (in The Selfish Gene, back in the 60's, Dawkins coined "meme" to explain ideas that experience natural selection but in a "meme" pool instead of a "gene" pool), then they also have memetic properties that either enhance its ability to survive in the meme pool, or detract from its ability to survive. Christianity is made of many memes (a "memeplex", as Dawkins said), many of which work great together. For instance, the "faith" meme that holds belief without evidence is heavily reinforced with the "hell" meme that provides a punishment for thinking "dangerous" thoughts. The "hell" meme also works great with the "evangelism" meme, causing it to spread quickly as this takes advantage of natural human instincts to try to help other people. These all form into a meme that survives great in the wild.

Cults, on the other hand, include memes that seem "stranger" than religions because they include memes that stand out as obviously destructive to itself. For instance, doomsday prophecies are obviously timebombs for the meme which will take it out of the memepool on a specific day. Ritual suicide is another self destructive meme.

Often, organizations which identify cults and help cultists escape from cults will have criteria to identify "cults". If you look at many of these lists, they'll be things like "encourages members to cut off from society and family", "requires members to give away all possessions", etc. There are, I think, common threads found in "cults".

Now, I would agree that the overall nature of "religion memeplexes" are very related to the nature of "cult memeplexes", but I don't think it's as simple as "cults are just tiny religions". Rather, I think that these are two emergent systems within the larger system of human society, and that they both have distinguishing traits.

I think it is common, though, that cults grow into religions; however, I think the history of religion clearly shows that when this happens, the cult sheds many of its cult memes. For instance, Mormonism dropped polygamy and isolationism. I suspect that Scientology is currently dropping many cultish-seeming traits in order to grow. Back when it was a cult, proto-Christians believed that the world would end within their lifetime, and the Bible even says this, but as it became a religion, their imminent doomsday prophecy became a metaphorical, nebulous, warning about some unknown time in the future, and transformed into a potent motivational meme for a larger religion. Perhaps this is a pattern because cultish memes are great for forming small devoted and exclusive groups, but don't work with larger groups, while religion memes are great for organizing huge groups of diverse and inclusive followers, but don't have enough zealous ideals to spontaneously start up.

[–]Shadow16nh 58 points59 points ago

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Had to give it two reads, and then I had to give it one big smile.

[–]locriology 42 points43 points ago

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Took me more than two. I'm a retard.

[–]definitely_retarded 49 points50 points ago

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Took me around 4, but then again...

[–]soasdude 8 points9 points ago

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improvement, good job!

[–]Leechifer 4 points5 points ago

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Just don't go full retard.

[–]big-o-notation 1 point2 points ago

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No, you just have faith.

[–]morpheousmarty 1 point2 points ago

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It's the formating. The repetitive part should have started the line both times, and make it easy to compare. At first you're not sure if there was a subtle difference between the two.

[–]Libertaire 0 points1 point ago

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Hah, me too.

[–]rydan 7 points8 points ago

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I thought I got it right on the first pass but gave it a second read just to make sure.

[–]CoBeir 10 points11 points ago

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Me too. Then I googled for a text version to save and found a different version and had to reread both versions again. The version I found is more literal and less "trollish", I guess is a decent word.

“The difference between faith and insanity is that faith is the ability to hold firmly to a conclusion that is incompatible with the evidence, whereas insanity is the inability to hold firmly to a conclusion that is compatible with the evidence.” (Emphasis is mine.)

[–]calyxa 1 point2 points ago

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that one makes a whole hell of a lot more sense.

[–]MxM111 0 points1 point ago

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I do not know why do you smile to the fact that majority people on the Earth are alike to being insane...

[–]Shadow16nh 0 points1 point ago

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I smile because I have a sense of humor. The post by the OP is only half serious, and was written with humorous intent.

[–]olifri 30 points31 points ago

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tomato tomato

[–]EetsGeets 30 points31 points ago

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Doesn't work so well in text form...

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]EetsGeets 10 points11 points ago

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Took me a second, but you've got a damn good point there.

[–]theshallowdrowned 3 points4 points ago

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Why are there so many songs about rainbows?

[–]loggedout 0 points1 point ago

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I agree with Roy_G_Biv,

but for some reason I still read it like people say it. Weird.

[–]EetsGeets 0 points1 point ago

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...so do I, that's why I said

you've got a damn good point there.

[–]Beachy 7 points8 points ago

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potato potato

[–]Leechifer 5 points6 points ago

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"Let's call the whole thing off!"

[–]hypogenic 1 point2 points ago

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fap fap

[–]danxmason 5 points6 points ago

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Except sometimes insanity holds a belief that is fixed firmly on truth.

[–]purebacon 0 points1 point ago

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But the insane would never be able to tell if their belief was false. They could luck out and be correct anyway, but there's a lot more ways to be wrong than to be right so that's a risky bet.

[–]nroose 5 points6 points ago

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I wish people would stop using just the one word "faith" for religious faith or belief in god. I have faith in myself, my family, my friends, and my dog, among other things, but it is not blind and baseless. I don't believe in god, but I am greatly insulted by the terms "non-believer", "faithless", etc.

[–]Wizard_Glick 1 point2 points ago

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Agreed. There is room to hold faith until compelling evidence presents itself. At that point, one's rationality is tested.

[–]NOACeulemans 0 points1 point ago

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Along the same lines, don't you think 'atheist' is kinda insulting? I mean, why is it that atheists are defined by the act of NOT believing in one or more gods (a-theistic)? Are we believers by defaults?

[–]RedArmy- 16 points17 points ago

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tl;dr version, faith = insanity.

[–]projektdotnet 14 points15 points ago

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And the tl;dr for CS majors: faith == insanity

[–]sumsarus 5 points6 points ago

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That's just an operation to test equality, it doesn't state anything about the result (true or false).

[–]Democritus477 6 points7 points ago

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var = (faith == insanity);

printf("%d",var);

1

[–]projektdotnet 0 points1 point ago

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I figured the returns true was implied

[–]HazierPhonics 0 points1 point ago

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===, if you're a sensible CS major.

[–]compiling 5 points6 points ago

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I'm not JokeExplainer, but

in JavaScript the behavior of == cannot be described by any simple consistent rules. The expression 0 == false is true, but 0 == undefined is false, even though both sides of the == act the same in boolean context. For this reason it is recommended to avoid the == operator in JavaScript in favor of ===.

Wikipedia: Equals Sign

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points ago

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You think that's bad, check out PHP

[–]iKs279 0 points1 point ago

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But it depends strongly on the language. In PHP and Javascript, which seem to have fucked up ==, the devs added a stronger ===. In Ruby though it seems in general to be less strict than ==. In C, C++, C# and Java, the problem doesn't exist.

[–]projektdotnet 0 points1 point ago

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My school uses Java so the === issue was one I had forgotten since it's been so long since I used PHP/JS

[–]BloodRedSumo 2 points3 points ago

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Joke explainer, go.

[–]OGrilla 0 points1 point ago

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"Faith Equals Insanity", a blunt summary for the linguists.

[–]jablair51 10 points11 points ago

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Reminds me of Mark Twain: "Faith is believing what you know ain't so."

[–]mwomorris 11 points12 points ago

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I doubt the faithful would define it as such. Faith, to them, is not incompatible with the evidence, simply independent of it. Equally ridiculous IMO, just not so pithy.

[–]CrazyEddie041 37 points38 points ago

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How many legs does a cat have if you call a tail a leg?

Four. Calling it a leg doesn't make it a leg.

Same goes for faith's relationship with evidence.

[–]capecodcarl 16 points17 points ago

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"What I didn't put in the report was at the end, he gave me a choice between a life of comfort and more torture. All I had to do was to say that I could see five legs, when in fact there were only four."

"You didn't say it."

"No... no, but I was going to. I would have told him anything. Anything at all. But then more than that, I believe that I could see five legs."

[–]Leechifer 7 points8 points ago

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"THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS!!!"

[–]CrazyEddie041 1 point2 points ago

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Reminds me of this.

[–]DiscoYoghurt 4 points5 points ago

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[–]CrazyEddie041 1 point2 points ago

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[–]DiscoYoghurt 0 points1 point ago

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Well, yes, obviously, but he was referring to the modified quote by carl which was from Star Trek.

[–]notalady 0 points1 point ago

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Nice, I'll remember that one.

[–]wilywampa 2 points3 points ago

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Exactly. Faith can be belief without evidence, not just belief despite evidence. Think celestial teapot. Most faith is of this type. Fundies who reject evolution and such despite all the evidence are the insane type.

[–]brznks 0 points1 point ago

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what is this, a legitimate correction of a misinterpretation? DOWNVOTE

[–]PipingHotSoup 2 points3 points ago

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Nythology- the study of how to sass the religious.

[–]RandomFrenchGuy 0 points1 point ago

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Isn't it the study of that ancient order of knights ?

[–]Laziness 4 points5 points ago

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You know you could've just typed it here; you didn't have to ruin your book.

[–]OGrilla 1 point2 points ago

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As has been stated before, pictures get more upvotes. It's all about the karma, baby.

[–]HazierPhonics 0 points1 point ago

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I thought this was written on a mirror...

[–]Laziness 1 point2 points ago

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It's not a very reflective mirror then.

[–]typtyphus 1 point2 points ago

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[–]Nevarr 1 point2 points ago

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No, i think it is written on a wall just.

[–]nanker 1 point2 points ago

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On an entirely different topic, your handwriting is exquisitely legible. It's like something out of a dream.

[–]ReigninLikeA_MoFo 0 points1 point ago

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Stay. Between. The. Lines. ( In the voice of Ben Stein, of course.)

[–]NOACeulemans 1 point2 points ago

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If I ever get a tattoo, this is what's going on my skin.

[–]Mumberthrax 1 point2 points ago

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...seriously? You wouldn't want to use something a little less fallacious?

[–]NOACeulemans 1 point2 points ago

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Suggest me a good atheist quote. I've been looking for a good one (that's not utterly long) for a while now, and considering getting a simply stylized one tattooed.

I'd owe you one big time.

[–]Mumberthrax 1 point2 points ago

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I actually wouldn't condone putting an ideologically based quotation on my body in such a permanent manner. What happens if you change your opinion?

What happens if a christian gets a tattoo that says "Jesus is the way and the light" and later becomes an agnostic? That christian may have been so convinced he was right, he had faith that all other beliefs were wrong and he would never ever regret that tattoo.

[–]NOACeulemans 1 point2 points ago

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What happens if you change your opinion?

About being a-religious and atheist, even anti-theist? Then it'll serve as a reminder to not dabble with petty faith.

And if anything or anyone ever proves to me that a religion is in the right, well then, gods help me, I'll laser that sucker right off. Nothing like a painful procedure to say 'I was wrong'.

I don't expect the latter will happen.

[–]Mumberthrax 1 point2 points ago

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Well, what is your intent with the tattoo? Is it to advertise to others? To educate? To reaffirm your beliefs to yourself? Is it to shock? To have others compliment you and say you're cool?

If you can determine what your specific reasoning is for wanting the tattoo, then you can probably narrow down the kind of quote you want.

[–]NOACeulemans 1 point2 points ago

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I think both to reaffirm my beliefs to myself and point out my adherence to those beliefs to others. So a bit of a 'I think this and I broadcast it', I guess.

[–]Mumberthrax 1 point2 points ago

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Alright, so you want something pretty darned pure, right? Just saying "I'm an atheist" (or something similar) is kind of general, and can have a lot of different interpretations. It doesn't solidly connect with your personal beliefs or reasons for believing the way you do. So what are your beliefs, then?

Do you believe that all religion is wrong, destructive, manipulative, harmful to self-determination, etc.? Or maybe just some specific religions?

or that there is just no god, and therefore it's silly to adhere to a cultural belief system that is based on that false premise?

Is it just that one should always be critical of what they accept as true, to by vigilant in examining one's beliefs in case false assumptions are made? Sort of a more philosophical assertion?

[–]NOACeulemans 2 points3 points ago

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I believe all religion is harmful to humanity as a whole... minus Jainism, but that's really just an exception, and who's to say it doesn't encourage some sort of discrimination? I think religion encourages people to stop seeking for real answers, encourages xenophobia, discrimination and by extension bloodshed, is divisive, dangerous and all those negative things you listed.

In addition, I think that even if there were a god, or gods, that it is ridiculous that they would expect us to adhere to organized religion.

I'm a gnostic atheist, as I fully reject the idea of the existence of a god, gods, or any godlike being. It is in direct conflict with everything science has ever taught us, and purely ridiculous at the mere suggestion.

I think if there is anything out there we could be inclined to define as a godlike creature, then it is simply a creature with extraordinary characteristics (much like the saying "any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic"; we might some day meet the descendant of a civilization so advanced we perceive its abilities as godlike).

On a sidenote, I'm very glad you would take time to help me out. People like to say reddit is declining, but I beg to differ.

[–]Mumberthrax 2 points3 points ago

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Well, I'll say that my personal beliefs are somewhat in conflict with yours to a certain extent. With all that I've read and learned from many individuals, and the considerable time I've spent contemplating the matter, I tend to be more likely to believe in a divine force of some sort than not. I was once as ravenously anti-theistic as anybody on r/atheism, too.

But this isn't about me!

A little searching brought me these links:

I know you could just as easily have found these, but perhaps having them in one spot will make it a little easier.

[–]fitzydog 1 point2 points ago

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Calling Sagan-man!!!

[–]tellu2 1 point2 points ago

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This reminds me of Richard Dawkins on Q & A recently where he described how if religion wasn't so widespread we'd be calling people believing in it crazy...

[–]MikeTheStone[S] 1 point2 points ago

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Context: From the Francis Alÿs Exhibition at MOMA.

[–]Mumberthrax 1 point2 points ago

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Faith is not necessarily about believing in something despite evidence to the contrary. Faith is believing in something without confirming evidence. When I have faith that humanity will make it, that we'll survive and become a brilliant species, this is not supported by evidence, and it is not contradicted by evidence. It is not insanity.

If I have faith that my country will be able to make it to the moon by 1969, that is not insanity. If I have faith that I'll be able to invent a flying machine when nobody else has before, that is not insanity. If I have faith that I will win a spelling bee, despite my being comparable in skill to my opponents, I am not insane.

Do you get the idea?

Stop this needless haughtiness and derision. Respectful engagement is what is needed, not character defamation. "You have faith? You are insane, then."

It's stupid, and only serves to dehumanize the people that you would seek to help (if you truly care about education).

[–]fitzydog 0 points1 point ago

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That's hope.

[–]Mumberthrax 0 points1 point ago

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No, hope is when I want it to happen. Faith is when I believe it will happen.

[–]fitzydog 0 points1 point ago

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But if you have a rational basis for believing these things, is it still faith? If I had seen my country's scientists complete the manhattan project, and am familiar with the engineering accomplishments we have done, then there is a strong probability that we will make it to the moon. If Kazakhstan said it was going to go to the moon, I have no reason to believe or have 'faith' in that project.

[–]Mumberthrax 0 points1 point ago

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Something in this argument doesn't feel right. I am not an expert at debate, so I'm not sure what it is. I don't know that I completely understand your position.

[–]pianobadger 1 point2 points ago

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I'm not religious, but I would say that if insanity is "the ability to hold firmly to a conclusion that is incompatible with the evidence," than faith is the ability to hold firmly to a conclusion in the absence of evidence.

Many people who think they have faith are insane.

[–]titaniusA 3 points4 points ago

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Faith is voluntary.

[–]forresja 8 points9 points ago

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I wonder sometimes if it really is. I don't think most religious people feel like they have chosen to have faith. To them, that is just how the world is.

[–]titaniusA 0 points1 point ago

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Yeah, you have a point; I think the question on the table is what is the nature of faith, is it something you can have if it's been forced on you? My subjective answer is no, it must come from your own inner self to qualify as faith.

[–]Dunscaith 9 points10 points ago

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Childhood indoctrination is "voluntary"?

[–]RandomFrenchGuy 8 points9 points ago

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I always viewed it as borderline child abuse. Maybe I'm being intolerant.

[–]Dunscaith 6 points7 points ago

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Nope, you're just sane.

[–]slimshady2002 1 point2 points ago

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Or is he....insane?

Yeah, ill just show myself out

[–]titaniusA 0 points1 point ago

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You're talking about religion, which is the practice of faith. Also, in the same way that true knowledge is never taught but always the result of realisation (the reason why psychologists don't just give you the answer but have you realise it), faith is never the result of indoctrination.

[–]Dunscaith 0 points1 point ago

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Yes I am talking about religion. As was the OP's picture/quote. You make a huge assertion that faith is "never" the result of indoctrination. Children are hardwired to believe what their elders and people of authority tell them are facts. You should REALLY re-asses what you just said.

[–]titaniusA 0 points1 point ago

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My point is that believing something is not the same as faith in something, faith is a spiritual conviction, not the result of external forces.

[–]Dunscaith 0 points1 point ago

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I don't believe in a spirit or a soul, so your point is null to me, or in other words, faith is most certainly the result of external forces.

[–]discursor 4 points5 points ago

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I hate this smug bullshit.

[–]underwireonfire 1 point2 points ago

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I would differentiate between the two based on whether the actor is attached to a particular outcome. If you have faith that everything will be ok, that everything will work out for the best, etc, it is not the same as "having faith" that the roulette wheel will land black (insanity). You may not know how everything will turn out ok, how life will provide you with the tools you need, but if you have faith without attachment, it is a far cry from insanity.

[–]millface1 1 point2 points ago*

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The difference between insanity and faith is that insanity is when a person's brain functions sub-optimally based on genetics rather than power of will, while faith is believing in something that exhibits a lack of proof. Since you can't fully define a deity, faith in such a thing can't possibly be considered insanity. Silly? Sure, but its no defect in your brain.

[–]Wizard_Glick 1 point2 points ago

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I'm with you until the theory bit. A theory is not an undergraduate fact; it's an explanation. Despite its colloqial use, a theory is not the same as an opinion or a hypothesis. In science, it is a fact in practice.

I don't think you deserve to be downvoted for your comment, however, so have your point back for participation.

[–]millface1 0 points1 point ago

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Yeah, should have been more specific. Evolution exists, fact. But certain parts of that package are unobservable. We can safely assume the formula, but we can't watch it happen. Thats faith. Not the contextual faith that means GOD JESUS SPIRIT RAH RAH. Rather, it falls under the actual definition of the term, which would still be a part of every day life even if you nix religion. Which is why I don't like seeing the word butchered and turned into something its not.

[–]fitzydog 0 points1 point ago

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Not faith. It's like seeing a set of points on a graph that make an exponential curve. Is it faith that we think that the points will create a curve?

[–]Eoiny 1 point2 points ago

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What about having faith in your partner? Is that insane? (Has tended to be for me, but that's not really the point...)

[–]miparasito 7 points8 points ago

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If all evidence suggests that your partner isn't someone you can trust to be there for you, then yes.

[–]darkangelx 1 point2 points ago

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If you find used condoms in the trash and no one else lives there, you find the toilet seat up after you get home and were gone all day and you KNOW you put it down because you are a considerate person and THEN you come to the conclusion they arent cheating on you, yes you are insane.

[–]Mumberthrax 0 points1 point ago

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Nothing about having faith in your partner implies that you found evidence that they are not worthy of that faith.

[–]darkangelx 0 points1 point ago

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Nope but if the evidence points to them lying, THAT is reason to not find them worthy or you are insane :P

[–]Mumberthrax 0 points1 point ago

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In general, I agree. I just think that having faith in something does not necessarily imply contradictory evidence.

[–]brianberns 1 point2 points ago

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This is cute, but it's wrong (i.e. incompatible with the evidence). Faithful people are not insane. There is a real difference, whether we want to acknowledge it or not.

[–]AetherThought 0 points1 point ago

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Wow, I had to read that a few times to notice that they were the same... ಠ_ಠ

[–]RandomFrenchGuy 2 points3 points ago

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Short term memory is usually the first to go.

[–]jiggygent 0 points1 point ago

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I read it like 3x trying to find the difference.. thinking to myself, "I must have missed it."

[–]gensek 0 points1 point ago

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Gotta love correctly attributed graffiti.

[–]DickWilhelm 0 points1 point ago

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You'd have to be insane to write on a wall with a Sharpie, you can't paint over that shit :p

[–]kellysmith 0 points1 point ago

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I can't see the diff...ah, I get it!

[–]Joe_Kehr 0 points1 point ago

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I'd rather say that insanity is holding a conclusion firmly that is incompatible with the evidence, whereas faith is the ability to hold a conclusion firmly that is incompatible with the evidence.

Put differently, faith allows you to mimick insanity perfectly, and insanity is perfected faith.

[–]AtheistUniverse 0 points1 point ago

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Thanks for highlighting the subtle difference. Crucial.

[–]Aedan91 0 points1 point ago*

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They sound the same to me.

\joke.

[–]Aladar_42 0 points1 point ago

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Source for the image? Something tells me that this is one of the series of absolutely beautiful photos made in old, about-to-be-demolished psychic hospital that I found link to ages ago, and I would definitely love to see them again..

[–]capt_0bvious -1 points0 points ago*

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So if I have faith in your ability to achieve something that you repeated failed , I am insane? In other words, I should not encourage you to try to do something that you failed before? This quote is stupid.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]capt_0bvious 1 point2 points ago

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ok..you have a terminal illness..I would be insane to have faith that you can beat it? the definition of faith is believing without evidence...that's why it's called faith and not fact.

faith = belief that is not based on proof ref. dictionary.com

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]capt_0bvious 1 point2 points ago

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you obviously don't know what the definition of faith is. People have had recovered from terminal illness.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]capt_0bvious 0 points1 point ago

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how is that insane?

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]capt_0bvious 0 points1 point ago

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you can't encourage people to have faith. If they have it they have it, It doesn't mean they are insane.

[–]15sunrises -4 points-3 points ago

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Fucking great, now we're calling religious people insane. I'm sure that won't push them to be even more fundamental. It's becoming depressing to think about how many haughty atheists there are out there pressing theists even further into their belief systems.

[–]_pupil_ 6 points7 points ago

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Yeah, atheists. Stop pointing out the flaws in peoples thinking so that they are free to discover those flaws themselves, from their religious friends and family, from their pastors and rabbis, their religious radio, and their religious schools. It will work and we can prove it: just look back at how effective it's been for the last few thousand years...

Wassat? Atheism is the single largest growing religious denomination in the world? I believe that is in absolutely no way related to the development of a large, globally connected, network where information can flow freely and people can express their doubts and concerns with like minded individuals (generally) without fear of being stoned to death for their troubles. Free exchange of ideas has never gotten us anything, we should think about peoples feelings first and foremost.

Also, talking to made up beings in your head and believing easily disprovable facts about our world and fictional beings in no way reflects on your ability to accurately asses reality. To describe one-sided telepathic conversations with your omnipotent invisible-friend as 'insane' is a complete mischaracterization. Get with the program, heathens.

[–]DeFex 1 point2 points ago

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Except atheism is not a religious denomination.

[–]fitzydog 1 point2 points ago

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He meant 'group'.

[–]Pilebsa 1 point2 points ago

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Right, since reasoning with them using logic has proven to be so successful.

[–]rex_gildo -1 points0 points ago

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evidence needs truth->truth is relative-> there is no truth->there is no evidence->nobody bases anything on evidence->everyone beliefs and is insane

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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So why should we accept this claim you made?

[–]rex_gildo 1 point2 points ago

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i dont say you should, but you could if you want, if everyone did it would save us a lot of fighting

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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I think relativists believe in the absolute that everything is relative. Centrists are extremist about extremism being wrong. Theists believe that the existence of a consciousness is the cause of existence. Agnostics know for sure that they can know nothing for sure. Mystics invalidate the senses using a sixth sense. Kantians know about the noumena which they claim cannot be known.

[–]rex_gildo 0 points1 point ago

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nice paradoxes...but what is your point?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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My point is that there are absolutes. Sometimes extremes are right. Theists are wrong. Agnostics are wrong. Mystics are wrong. Kantians are wrong.

[–]rex_gildo 0 points1 point ago

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that there are absolutes doesnt mean that there can be relativism...dont think black and white

[–]rex_gildo 0 points1 point ago

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cant

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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I agree.

[–]EviLiu -2 points-1 points ago

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Awesome.

[–]Synzael -2 points-1 points ago

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Uptoke for you good sir :)