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[–]moogoo2 86 points87 points ago

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I think it's interesting that every time an abortion thread starts the exact same arguments get posted.

  • It's a life / it's unaware
  • rape pregnancies are bad / every life deserves a chance
  • Pro lifers are pro death penalty / babies are innocent and killers aren't

There's never any new debate on this subject.

[–]origin415 27 points28 points ago

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That is probably because the entire issue comes down to whether you define life as starting at conception or at birth. All your other beliefs about the subject revolve around this, and no one even seems to debate it.

[–]Shaper_pmp 20 points21 points ago*

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All your other beliefs about the subject revolve around this, and no one even seems to debate it.

Because it's axiomatic, and axioms by definition aren't really subject to proof or disproof. You can't prove "human life begins at birth" or "human life begins at conception", because the progression from sperm and egg to independent baby is not a single instant - it's a long, slow process of one thing changing into another. Rather, people arbitrarily plump for one or the other for social or religious reasons and then defend their arbitrary decision to the hilt.

I'm sure half the reason discussions get so heated is precisely because neither side has a good, factual, killer argument. Every debate descends into two groups of monkeys flinging poop at each other because that's all they can do on the subject.

Against this context we have to arbitrarily pick a line somewhere on the spectrum of sperm+egg->baby human, and agree it's ok to kill everything that side of it, but not ok to kill everything this side.

However, there's no logical argument that demonstrates that any particular position is more "right" than any other, so there's no actual debate to be had - you either agree with someone or you don't, and aside from irrational and invalid appeals to emotion neither side can make any headway against the other.

Ultimately society's consensus position is to try to balance the priorities "mother's rights" vs. "baby's life", and draw a line somewhere in the middle. However, this is largely just a "split the difference" compromise with little real hard reasoning behind it, which is why it so often comes under attack from one side or the other.

[–]onionhammer 3 points4 points ago

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Against this context we have to arbitrarily pick a line somewhere on the spectrum of sperm+egg->baby human, and agree it's ok to kill everything that side of it, but not ok to keel everything this side.

Which is exactly what the supreme court has already done for us (viability)! Yay debate over.

[–]smemily 13 points14 points ago

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Life doesn't start. The fetus / embryo is made from cells that were already alive. It's always alive.

But that isn't relevant. What's relevant is whether a person has the right to use their own organs and blood as they wish.

For example, if your brother were dying of liver failure, and you were the only possible donor, it might be moral for you to donate, but it would be wrong for the state to MANDATE that you do. And there's no doubt that your brother is a fully formed person. He just isn't legally entitled to anyone else's body parts.

[–]wrathofpitboss 5 points6 points ago

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The example of your brother doesn't work because in your example your brother would have a say in it. Your brother could plead for your assistance, or perhaps refuse to accept your organs as there would be a risk to you in providing assistance to him.

Additionally no one could ever say that their brother was created as a direct consequence of their own actions (unless you're in a seriously fucked up family) but in most abortion cases (rape pregnancies being the obvious exception) this is exactly the case.

So I would spin your example of the brother this way: If your brother were dying of liver failure and he was ill from a direct result of a poison that you created and forced upon him, and you were the only possible donor, could the state MANDATE that you save him? Probably not but you would undoubtedly face criminal charges in that scenario.

[–]smemily 5 points6 points ago

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Fine, let's say it's your adult child dying of liver failure. :) And you're the only viable donor.

Most people would agree that you should donate. I bet we'd even agree that you're an asshole if you can, but refuse.

But assholery isn't the question. The question is where the law falls. And the law has to fall on the side of NOT FORCING DONATION. There is no eminent domain when it comes to human bodies.

[–]moogoo2 2 points3 points ago*

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This is basically how I see it. I just wish we could shelve the vitriol until that issue can be solved.
EDIT: spelling

[–]bananapajama 3 points4 points ago

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I don't think this issue will ever be solved. In the meantime, law makers do have to make a decision, and any decision they make will make a particular group of people angry.

First, they have to decide whether to base the definition of life as "biologically" or "spiritually."

If spiritually, then they have to deal with the ethical implications of imposing their spiritual beliefs on others, or not. Since most developed countries have separation of church and state, they obviously must respect other people's religious beliefs, and therefore cannot impose their own beliefs onto people by way of laws (logically, although this is not done in practice).

If biologically, one must then decide which biological phenomenon to choose as the defining characteristic of "life." Heart beats? Brain activity? Implantation into the womb? There is no fine line.

This is why this subject is so hotly debated. Until everyone is of one mind about this subject, or this subject ceases to have an impact on our every day lives, it always will be.

[–]blcknight 1 point2 points ago

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I'm liberal-ish, but this is something I just don't understand.

Elective abortion -- not in the cases of rape, incest, medical necessity, etc -- comes down to a choice of being responsible for your actions or not.

If you make the choice to have sex, then you make the choice to possibly bring a new life into this world, and you have to deal with that responsibility.

[–]CheshireIsBack 9 points10 points ago

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You could deal with it responsibly by getting an abortion.

Wouldn't you consider it being responsible to acknowledge whether you can or cannot currently have a child? (Desperate economic situations, immaturity of the mother, drug addiction, other kids that need to be taken care of etc.) Even if you were to give the child up for adoption its not like pregnancy is free, it involves a lot of work, time and energy that some people cannot afford.

Not fooling yourself into thinking you can go through pregnancy and take care of a child I consider being responsible.

[–]ehird 2 points3 points ago

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Consider a bad decision made by a teenager.

[–]stop_alj_censorship 0 points1 point ago

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Carl Sagan had some interesting commentary on that very aspect of this debate in his book Billions and Billions. I recommend.

I personally don't care when "life begins" and that really doesn't impact my opinion that the woman is more important than a new life in any form, especially one that can be (albeit randomly) recreated later. We terminate "life" in many forms; I've never met a vegetarian "pro lifer" and the only aspect of their opinion is from their religious beliefs, which nicely aligns with their repression of women.

[–]omnilynx 53 points54 points ago

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I don't really want to get in an argument, so I won't reply beyond this, but here's a point I haven't seen around.

There's a lot of debate about when we can consider the fetus/baby a full human. Some people say even the single cell at conception is fully human, and some say that it doesn't become a separate human until the umbilical cord is severed. But the real answer is that we don't know. There's no bright line that we can definitely say "before this, it's just a part of the mother's body, after this, it's a new organism". All we can say is that some time between conception and birth (inclusive), it becomes human.

If that's the case, then at any point along the line, we have two possibilities for error: we could kill a human, or we could needlessly protect a non-human. Of the two, I consider the first to be rather the more egregious. Of course there are other factors, such as the fact that we are curtailing the mother's rights to protect the non-human, but still killing seems more extreme than a temporary restriction of rights.

By that reasoning, it would seem that the logical conclusion is to prevent abortion at any point after conception, but that's not necessarily the case. If we were able to assign weights to the gravity of each of the errors (say, killing a baby is twice as bad as restricting a mother's rights) and furthermore were able to assign a probability that the fetus is human at each stage of the pregnancy (naively, start at 0% at conception and increase linearly to 100% at birth), then there would be some point at which the chance at which it was human would match the weighted cost ratio, so that before that point abortion would be justified and after it we would prefer not to allow abortion.

Since no one that I'm aware of has done such an analysis, I'd prefer to err on the side of caution for now, so I am tentatively pro-life. I haven't actually had much opportunity to put that into practice, though, and I'm not really interested in seeking such opportunities out.

[–]jomoito 7 points8 points ago

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I really appreciate your reply, and didn't feel like an upvote alone would do that justice. Its hard to be moderate about hot-bed political/social topics. I often wonder what would happen if two differing sides on an issue such as this were to have a REAL debate about it. Would people be able to come to a compromise?

[–]TakesOneToNoOne 0 points1 point ago

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As a pro-life person I'm willing to make the compromise that abortion shouldn't be outlawed before the end of the first trimester.

[–]thevaleyard 2 points3 points ago

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This post reminds me of Scrodinger's cat.

[–]White_Washed 2 points3 points ago

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The one thing I do know is that my wife, who is 8-weeks pregnant, had an ultrasound at 7 weeks and we could hear the heart beat; words can't describe what that sounds like for a first-time father. I, myself, would rather die at this point than have anything happen to what some think isn't a human.

[–]pstryder 3 points4 points ago

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Since no one that I'm aware of has done such an analysis, I'd prefer to err on the side of caution for now, so I am tentatively pro-life.

I am pro-choice. The reason is very simple: No one is in a better position to make the decision than the pregnant woman/mother. There are all kinds of reasons a woman may pursue an abortion. And NONE of them are any of YOUR business.

If abortion is outlawed (or restricted much more than it already is in many places in the US) then the ONLY thing that will change is that pregnant women who want an abortion will die from botched, illegal, back-alley abortions, (or the old style metal coat-hangers will see a resurgence in popularity.) No, it won't be all of them, and no, the ones who die DON'T deserve it.

Aside from that, there is a social good to be had from legal, easily available abortions: unwanted children have a FAR higher likelihood of becoming criminals. Yes, I do think we need abortion available as a choice to keep society functional. (Yeah, I read Freakonomics.)

I, personally, go even farther: any woman in the US should be able to walk into any clinic, doctors office, hospital, etc and be examined, and walk out with birth control; anonymously, and free of charge. Also, YES your tax dollars should pay for the abortion of any woman that wants it, anonymously, and free of charge. (Men should be able to get vasectomies on the tax-payers dime as well.)

Shut up about it being unfair if your tax dollars are spent on abortions; think anyone gives a damn about my being pissed tax dollars go to pay for abstinence-only education, religious indoctrination, and 2 wars I think we should leave immediately? Of course not.

[–]DickcheeseDoughnut 1 point2 points ago

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What would you do if you saw a woman about to be murdered in an alley somewhere? Would you do nothing and just keep walking? Because that is none of your business either.

[–]Sillyboy1212 1 point2 points ago

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By the same logic then, we should make robbing banks legal because the robbers are putting themselves at risk by breaking the law....

In terms of the unwanted children and likelihood of being criminals I'd like to see a source. Not cause I'm saying your making blind claims I just want to know where that came from to look into it myself.... But along those lines if (which goes with what you say about birth control being free) women didn't get pregnant then there would be no reason for abortions in the first place....

[–]redorodeo 3 points4 points ago

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No. The argument that at conception a 'human' is created is an argument from the supernatural, that there is something 'special' about a human. A human is not only something that is biologically active but also mentally active. We are defined by our thoughts. For this reason, death can be defined as being brain dead.

Take baby Nicholas ( video.) He has no active brain just a brain stem, or Anencephaly. He is for all intents and purposes dead. It's sad to see the family carry the pregnancy to term. It's sad to see them know that he's not there but wish desperately that he was, "He's smiling. He's laughed for the first time. It was wonderful to hear him laugh."

Abortion is surely an emotional issue, but appealing to that emotion in order to create a definition of life is useless.

[–]chewbacca77 2 points3 points ago

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Would you be charged with murder if you killed a brain dead person?

[–]redorodeo 1 point2 points ago

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If it goes against their advanced directives, then yes.

[–]chewbacca77 1 point2 points ago

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By that reasoning, it wouldn't be a crime to kill baby Nicholas.

[–]redorodeo 1 point2 points ago

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Legally, yes. It doesn't mean 'he' isn't dead.

[–]MattRix 1 point2 points ago

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Yeah, but what if you knew the person who was brain dead wouldn't be brain dead in 9 months?

[–]Sykotik 1 point2 points ago

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You are operating under the assumption that the baby being born is always in it's best interests, there are cases were this is not true.

[–]what_the_junk 11 points12 points ago

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You are operating under the assumption that it is other people's right to determine other people's best interests, there are cases where this is not true. Like, all of them.

[–]Sykotik 1 point2 points ago

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No I'm not. I'm pro choice, I was just being devil's advocate.

[–]lotlotters 0 points1 point ago

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Since no one that I'm aware of has done such an analysis,

I think you a word.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points ago

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Actually, that's not really true. Yeah, the same arguments and ad hominem attacks are often made because they're easy to understand and pretty much everyone has an instinctual response they want to share. On the other hand, pro-choicers and making a relatively new argument: that abortion decreases crime. And pro-lifers have recently been claiming that abortion reduces GDP. So, yeah, there are some new arguments.

[–]smemily 2 points3 points ago

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I don't like the "decreases crime" argument and wish pro-choicers wouldn't use it. It starts getting a little Hitlerish when you're talking about death being OK for society's benefit - especially when you're usually talking property crime.

A better argument in my opinion is that each person has a right to bodily autonomy, and this includes determining if you're willing to donate organs and blood, even if the recipient dies without them.

[–]origin415 0 points1 point ago

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Here's a rough draft of possible standard retorts:

  • abortion decreases crime / so does the death penalty?
  • abortion reduces GDP / but increases GDP per capita?

[–]hammerer 8 points9 points ago

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I know this is gonna get buried, but here's some things I don't often hear discussed:

  • I have no obligation to share my body parts (or fluids), or my food, with another person, even if it's the only way to save his/her life. A fetus would take up space in my body, share my blood, and use the nutrients that I gain from eating food. If the fetus is a person, then I should be able to decide not to share - the only way to do that at this time is through abortion. If it's not a person, then what does it matter if I want to get rid of it?

  • Pregnancy and childbirth carry a non-zero risk of death. It's not a large risk in the developed world, but it can still happen. I'm allowed to kill, in self-defense, another definitely-alive human being who threatens my life. Why shouldn't I be able to do the same to a potential person? Do I not have the right to defend myself?

[–]zgh5002 8 points9 points ago

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I like my stance. Don't take away the right to choose. If you are pro-life, don't get abortions. It's really that simple.

[–]rogue780 3 points4 points ago

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Only if you don't take away your child's right to choose life.

[–]tanstaafl90 1 point2 points ago

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And never really will be. It's a litmus for candidates to show how deep their conservative/liberal values go. It's also used as a way to avoid discussion about more pressing issues. This is one of those cases where prevention will save a tremendous amount of heartache.

[–]updog 0 points1 point ago

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No there isn't any new debate on this subject... on reddit. Philosophy, ethics of abortion. Go read some. I especially like the continual debate over the word viable and whether or not that which is viable has human rights.

[–]Mixed_Advice 0 points1 point ago

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how about: "the mother's choice is more important than the governments"

[–]Smoked_Herb 0 points1 point ago

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What I don't understand, is why MOST, I repeat, MOST, pro-lifers are pro war, not just death penalty. They'd rather send our grown men and women to die, who happen to be children of other parents, than to let a mother choose whether or not she wants an abortion.

[–]Gregs3RDleg 0 points1 point ago

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i think it's sad that pro-choice is pro forced-vaccination....that's anti-choice as far as im concerned

it's probably because the entire issue is controlled by ass-holes that think it's ok to put shit into people without their consent....even though we have other options available.....

[–]waterburner 0 points1 point ago

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I feel like pro life people often miss the real point. Just because some one is pro choice doesn't necessarily mean they are pro abortion. While I cannot see myself ever having one, i respect other people's right to choose to have a social life during the next 18 year

[–]OLOTM 0 points1 point ago

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Pro lifers are pro death penalty / babies are innocent and killers aren't

I am always amazed that someone pro abortion and anti-death penalty cannot see their own contradiction.

[–]TakesOneToNoOne 0 points1 point ago

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I'm both pro-life and anti-death penalty. I'm also anti-war.

[–]Larsenmur 239 points240 points ago

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well i kinda disagree... being pregnant isnt as bad as being dead imho..

[–]lask001 160 points161 points ago

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I'm pro-choice, but I think her point is terrible too.

[–]Pooters 32 points33 points ago

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Yes, it's a horrible point. Really really really horrible. At least she could have had a witty banner or something.

[–]Libertarian-Centrist 10 points11 points ago

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What if Jesus was aborted?

[–]AlexanderSalamander 17 points18 points ago

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We'd all be Jewish!

[–]Leadpipe 7 points8 points ago

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Oi vey!

[–]jamescagney 14 points15 points ago

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Then he'd be dead now.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points ago

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THEN WHO WAS JUDAS??

[–]touchpadonbackon 0 points1 point ago

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Well he would have at least avoided being sent to earth by his dad so that he'd be killed, so... there's that.

[–]dgafuan 4 points5 points ago

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He would have still died on earth, just unborn..

[–]Elrox 0 points1 point ago

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We would have avoided years of hatred, murder and bigotry in his name.

[–]lask001 1 point2 points ago

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I think that her banner was a poorly done attempt at wit.

[–]pyroenthused 6 points7 points ago

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I agree. I was almost aborted.

[–]CheshireIsBack 0 points1 point ago

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I had a friend tell me he wished he was aborted. His mother was a single mother that lived with his grandmother. Most of his life he thought his grandmother was his mom and his mom was his sister. That was very difficult for him to deal with when he realized what was up especially when his real mother is still immature as ever.

[–]pyroenthused 1 point2 points ago

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to wish to have never lived... I do hope someone tried to help make his life worth living.

[–]n311go 5 points6 points ago

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Yeah, seriously. Worst. Point. Ever.

[–]stinkem 23 points24 points ago

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Yeah this is a weak retort. If the issue is being argued this way, I tend to agree with the man's position.

[–]CosmicBard 3 points4 points ago

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What if you've been impregnated by chest-bursters?

[–]Todomanna 10 points11 points ago

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Chest-bursters are people too.

[–]justguessmyusername 2 points3 points ago

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Yeah; the oldster's sign is definitely more powerful. The debate is one of government overreach, not pregnancy.

[–]red_moon 9 points10 points ago

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And being pregnant is kind of your fault/responsability, not being killed before you were even born...

[–]foomp 33 points34 points ago

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True, but being dead before you're self aware isn't all that bad. At least you wouldn't think so.

[–]lask001 46 points47 points ago

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You wouldn't know though.

[–]foomp 19 points20 points ago

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Whoa.

[–]lask001 12 points13 points ago

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I know, deep right?

[–]mistahkurtzhedead 12 points13 points ago

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we need to go deeper.

[–][deleted] 38 points39 points ago

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C O N C E P T I O N

[–]wtfmanquestionmark 5 points6 points ago

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But when are you self aware?

[–]foomp 3 points4 points ago

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that would be the crux of the issue wouldn't it?

[–]TeaAddiction 3 points4 points ago

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Being the devils advocate I'll say: If self awareness is the prerequisite for the life to have value, does that consequently mean that given that a person is in a coma (making the assumption that the person is not self aware in any sense) and has no persons close to him/her, that it is morally permissable to kill this person? One premise that could be added is in a situation where this person costs the hospital/state money that could be used to help other people, and you may even add that his organs could be used for transplants that save other people.

If this is not okay, what is the key aspect that is different from that of a fetus being aborted.

[–]foomp 4 points5 points ago

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Not what-so-ever. In the argument as posed it applies.

Not being self aware, and by extention not being able to place value on your own life is a better situation than being self aware and being unwantedly pregnant.

In the case of the coma patient, who we're assuming to be a previously high functioning human who displayed self awareness - the fear of death was likely present before the coma and will be afterward (assuming the coma is a transient condition). The fetus has yet to become self aware so you we can't make any assumptions about what it might or might not feel.

As to your hypothetical coma patient, this is exactly why medical advance directives exist. To be able to extend your self aware judgements to a time when you might be incapable of making them.

[–]TeaAddiction 2 points3 points ago

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Yet again continuing to be the devil's advocate

In the case of the coma patient, who we're assuming to be a previously high functioning human who displayed self awareness - the fear of death was likely present before the coma and will be afterward (assuming the coma is a transient condition). The fetus has yet to become self aware so you we can't make any assumptions about what it might or might not feel.

Why is it that we place worth in the past? And why does not future consequences matter then?

Why can't we make any assumptions regarding the fetuses future will of life? Is it not quite strongly bound in our genetics? Why can we assume the future will of the coma patient with the past will of the coma patient, and what if the patient is in a coma due to a failed attempt of suicide?

And how can we assume that the coma is transient? If we can make assumptions in the case of the coma patient, why can we not make assumptions in the case of the fetus?

If all it boils down to is the past, why is that such an important key factor? And is it then moral to kill a baby who had to be surgicly delivered due to it being in coma?

[–]foomp 2 points3 points ago

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Good point. Damn your devil's advocacy!

I will rebut thusly:
With the coma patient we know that they are capable of being self aware, and as self aware individuals ourselves we can sympathize with the condition. In this case the past gives us a point to which we can apply an experiential comparison.

The fetus, I contend, not only isn't self aware - it never has been. That isn't a state of being i've ever had (in so much as i need self awareness to correlate experiences and states of being - i cannot have experience with the state of never having been self aware before i was self aware) [wow that got quite existential].

If the coma isn't transient, the aforementioned medical directives still hold for what the patient would like. The fetus doesn't have that option, and never will.

Your last question is more thorny - as i don't look at abortion as a moral issue. I deal with it as a rights issue. But if i must answer i will. Assuming the baby is close to full term, it wouldn't be able to be aborted, so it wouldn't be able to be killed under that premise.

As far wether i have a moral obligation to not providing vegetative care to a comatose baby: no i do not. If the diagnosis for the baby is a permanent vegetative state then that's an option for the parents/caregivers.

[–]everettb 1 point2 points ago

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I can argue my autistic nephew is not classically self-aware beyond simple motor neuron tests. I detest anyone who thinks their line of reasoning is so solid that they can determine someone elses right to live. Even as a pro-choice (with current 1st trimester limits) I think to take someone who is alive and push your way on them is rather barbaric.

If the person in question is an adult, hopefully they've gotten a living will and those who are trusted with such decisions can make them. To even think cost came to your mind? Wow, grandma time to move over, we need what you got now (bonus points if you can tell me where that general quote came from)...

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points ago

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You think newborns are self-aware?

[–]squarebit 35 points36 points ago

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Mine has almost figured out his hands belong to him.

[–]Turuku 6 points7 points ago

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One could argue that doesn't really matter at all, as long as they are functioning - yet small - human beings.

The problem with this whole debate is the lack of solid arguments, mostly strawman-argumentation.

E.g.: Is this baby-seal already self-aware?

http://advocacy.britannica.com/blog/advocacy/wp-content/uploads/seal-hunt-3.jpg (arguably NSFL)

See? Because it's just so despicably easy to appeal to emotion instead.

Same thing on the other side with the rape-child argument. Prime example of a strawman-argument, which contributes little to nothing to the question whether or not the rights of the child outweigh the rights of the mother.

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points ago*

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Here is a non-emotional argument. At 24 weeks, the fetus has a 50% chance of surviving outside of the womb. To me, that is a human being. I am only ok with abortion in the first term, and even then it bothers me a bit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viability_%28fetal%29

[–]smemily 6 points7 points ago

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And here's a non-emotional argument: Fewer than 2% of abortions are performed after 21 weeks, so your statistic is 98+% irrelevant to the discussion.

[–]jmf1234 2 points3 points ago

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[citation needed]

Are you talking about a specific location or the entire world or what? Are morning after pills included in this statistic? Im gonna do some internet sleuthing but it smells like it was just pulled out of your ass

[–]smemily 1 point2 points ago

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Sorry, forgot to paste the link apparently.

http://www.abortionfacts.com/statistics/gestation.asp

It's the US, and it's not including morning after pills since they aren't classified as "abortion" since they prevent implantation. They'd just lower the stat more.

That is from an anti-abortion site, btw.

And there's this:

  • Canada: During the year 2003, 6.5% of induced abortions were performed between 13 to 16 weeks, 2.2% between 17 to 20 weeks, and 0.8% over 20 weeks. This sample included procedures carried out in hospitals and clinics.[7]
  • England and Wales: In 2005, 9% of abortions occurred between 13 to 19 weeks, while 1% occurred at or over 20 weeks.[8]
  • New Zealand: In 2003, 2.03% of induced abortions were done between weeks 16 to 19, and 0.56% were done over 20 weeks.[9]
  • Norway: In 2005, 2.28% of induced abortions were performed between 13 to 16 weeks, 1.24% of abortions between 17 and 20 weeks, and 0.20% over 21 weeks.[10]
  • Scotland: In 2005, 6.1% of abortions were done between 14 to 17 weeks, while 1.6% were performed over 18 weeks.[11]
  • Sweden: In 2005, 5.6% of abortions were carried out between 12 and 17 weeks, and 0.8% at or greater than 18 weeks.[12]
  • United States: In 2003, from data collected in those areas that sufficiently reported gestational age, it was found that 6.2% of abortions were conducted from 13 to 15 weeks, 4.2% from 16 to 20 weeks, and 1.4% at or after 21 weeks.[13] Because the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's annual study on abortion statistics does not calculate the exact gestational age for abortions performed past the 20th week, there are no precise data for the number of abortions performed after viability.[13] In 1997, the Guttmacher Institute estimated the number of abortions in the U.S. past 24 weeks to be 0.08%, or approximately 1,032 per year.[14]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-term_abortion

So actually I'm being very generous by saying 2%, it's more like 1.4% in the US and lower most everywhere else.

[–]jmf1234 1 point2 points ago

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I gratefully eat my words...though viability seems like quite a sketchy point for beginning of human life, what status should a baby have the second before it becomes viable? Also how does our definition of viability change with advancements in technology?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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I am only ok with abortion in the first term, and even then it bothers me a bit.

Then take some biology, especially pay attention to the development parts of the class. Differentiating cells != a person. For a long time during development the zygote isn't any more "alive" than the sperm and egg cell that combined to create it.

[–]bdog2g2 2 points3 points ago

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According to this 39% chance at 24 weeks.

  • 23 weeks 17%
  • 24 weeks 39%
  • 25 weeks 50%
  • 26 weeks 80%
  • 27 weeks 90%
  • 28-31 weeks 90-95%
  • 32-33 weeks 95%
  • 34+ weeks Almost as likely as a full-term baby

Edit: Not trying to be an ass, simply pointing out there's a difference between 39% and 50%. At a 39% chance of survival, I'd want my family to pull the plug from life support if I were on it.

[–]everettb 20 points21 points ago

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39% chance and you pull the plug? Really?

Seems home-boy quoted 50% at 24 weeks, thanks for straightening him out. I see it was really 25 weeks. Whew. His entire post is pretty much invalidated when you see he was off an entire week.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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I got my numbers from here.

The numbers are all subjective and vary depending on country.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points ago

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Your numbers seem quite low, but they are very relative numbers.

Another article shows it as:

23 weeks 26%

24 weeks 47%

25 weeks 67%

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7340288.stm

http://www.hss.state.ak.us/dph/wcfh/informedconsent/2ndtri.htm

The point is with the fetus being able to survive outside the womb in such high numbers, it at some point before birth deserves the status and rights of a human being rather than a clump of cells.

At a 39% chance of survival, I'd want my family to pull the plug from life support if I were on it.

Bullshit

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]jforeman1988 2 points3 points ago

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I don't think her point is that being dead is the same as being pregnant. She's saying it's easy to be morally superior about it when it's not you who has to make the choice.

[–]quaunaut 96 points97 points ago

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This picture gets to me. I'm pro choice, but are you seriously trying to fucking compare being pregnant to being dead?

Fuck, I'd rather be pregnant with sextuplets than be dead. And I'm a guy. That shit would be awkward as fuck.

[–]JayceMJ 10 points11 points ago

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You'd also be rich as a male pregnant with sextuplets.

[–]jscoppe 1 point2 points ago

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But you have to cash in on that shit fast before the next topic of the week comes along.

[–]dafakin 0 points1 point ago

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Sex-mom-dude?

[–]pass_over 12 points13 points ago

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the point she's trying to make is that men don't understand what it's like to have to actually deal with giving birth, so it's easy for them to make judgments about something they don't understand.

[–]brokenblinker 4 points5 points ago*

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People that get an abortion don't know what its like to deal with giving birth either.

Edit: Obviously I meant first time pregnancy.

[–]pass_over 5 points6 points ago

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That's not true, several women who already have children get abortions because they simply don't have the resources to raise another OR they just don't want another.

[–]Mr_Dobalina 4 points5 points ago

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You'd never know you died. You'd never know you existed. It's not quite the same.

I'm pretty cynical, but I've never understood the "all life is sacred" thing. I say bullshit. Humans are a violent species seemingly bent on self-destruction. Not to mention the planet is currently grossly overpopulated with no end in sight to our growth until the planet can no longer support us. Why does the world need more unwanted children?

There's also a pretty solid argument that legalized abortion is responsible to the sharp decrease in crime starting in the 90's due to substantially less unwanted children.

[–]quaunaut 2 points3 points ago

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Once again, I'm not pro-life. I just think her argument sucks.

[–]deroy 15 points16 points ago

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Her argument isn't really aimed at promoting pro-choice. I saw it as more of an commentary on the fact that it is a bit absurd that a man, who cannot be pregnant, feels like he has the right to pass judgement on what a woman chooses to do with her body.

While a man does have a role in a pregnancy, and later on in the child's life, it isn't far fetched to say that men do not face the same issues during pregnancy. Men won't lose their jobs, deal with possible complications or simply have to face the reality of raising a child they may not be able to financially care for, and quite possibly on their own. So, in the end, it seems more like a criticism of people that condemn the actions of another without really understanding their situation.

[–]animateclay 2 points3 points ago

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"Humans are a violent species seemingly bent on self-destruction. Not to mention the planet is currently grossly overpopulated..."

You state that destruction is bad in our species, but call for destruction of innocent babies. Hmm, makes sense....makes sense....

[–]Evernoob 2 points3 points ago

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Population control is a pretty weak argument for pro-choice.

You don't really give a shit about the population. You just don't want the mistake you made when you chose not to use protection from fucking up your life.

[–]Mr_Dobalina 5 points6 points ago

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You just don't want the mistake you made when you chose not to use protection from fucking up your life.

Umm what? Abortion has no effect on my immediate personal life whatsoever. I've never screwed a girl without a condom, and I never plan to unless I get a vasectomy, or decide I want children.

I just think the world having a few less unwanted children is a good thing.

[–]nonethewiser 5 points6 points ago

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But his sign is bigger.

[–]bigjig 5 points6 points ago

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I love this type of thinking. It works out so well however you apply it. "You can't have a an opinion on this subject contrary to mine because your not pregnant"

[–]DeLoreanMotorCars 35 points36 points ago

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I'm pro-choice, but it's not hard to see both sides of the argument. I'm glad I'll never have to make that choice.

[–]cincocrazy 16 points17 points ago

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I am pro-choice too but the argument that she is the one being pregnant can just as easily be argued that she shouldn't be getting pregnant. People should use condoms and don't shoot or get shot inside if you don't want to prego. There's also the choice to get pregnant and the choice not to get pregnant. Many and in most cases most women take the responsibility to prevent this and are successful at it.

[–]Mixed_Advice 4 points5 points ago*

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Getting an abortion isn't fun. There seems to be this view that it's just some light hearted decision.

Rape, accidental pregnancy, ectopic pregnancy, lack of sex education, severe congenital defects, late-age pregnancy, retardation without accessibility... the list of valid reasons for abortion are far longer than the narrow view that abortion is the morning-after solution to horny 20 somethings that should know better.

The killing argument is a red-herring and mostly religion based. Medically we're talking about something that won't survive outside of the womb, the potential mother's cooperation and desire to have a baby are more important than any other factor in pregnancy. If the female is not interested in the child, you should let them abort it as soon as possible. (This is why the birth then adoption argument is redundant.)

review the rate of natural miscarriage for a fuller picture

Also there are many medical conditions that the female may have which can endanger her life should she attempt to carry a child to term. Some of these are temporary (such as obesity, high blood pressure etc.) Meaning that there are often "better and worse" times for a female to be pregnant, even if she has the desire to have children.

[–]Pfeffersack 1 point2 points ago

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Not being able to be pregnant is not the same as not going to have choice. A potential would-be father has a responsibility, of course it's not the same.

[–]politicallore 16 points17 points ago

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It isn't? Sure the first few months are really ALL mom. But for the rest of those 18 years...

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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Sure the first few months are really ALL mom.

It's all mom taking care of the baby while dad supports them financially.

[–]ElderMoose 1 point2 points ago

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I'm Pro-life, but it's not hard to see both sides of the argument. I'm glad I'll never have to make that choice.

[–]brentose 24 points25 points ago

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R-R-R-REPOST. I think this might be the fourth time I have seen this one.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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[–]yuyukachoo 16 points17 points ago

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This thread is full of people who apparently equate pro-choice with pro-abortion.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points ago

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Well duh. Those same people also believe in a magical sky wizard that will apparently send you to an eternal after life of fire and brimstone if you don't love him, but he loves you and needs money.

[–]Look_Another_Repost 3 points4 points ago

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I think I've seen this before...

[–]Vee_Vee 3 points4 points ago

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ITT whoosh

[–]SandyShoes08 54 points55 points ago

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Yeah, she's got a real point about how inconvenient it is to be pregnant when you don't want to be. Fuck that baby's life, she's got a summer beach party to attend damn it.

[–]imoutits 30 points31 points ago

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so she's killing the fetus because she doesn't want to go through 9 months of pregnancy, not because she doesn't want to raise the child?

[–]MoneyWorthington 7 points8 points ago

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There are situations where the abortion's justification is the pregnancy itself, e.g. medical issues.

Otherwise, I agree that too much emphasis is placed on the pregnancy and too little on the effect it has; namely, a kid.

[–]LeSpatula 2 points3 points ago

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How did you come to that conclusion? Raising a child is the immediate consequence of being pregnant.

[–]imoutits 2 points3 points ago

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yes, but that sign wouldn't be valid if it said "...when you are not the one raising the child", and so the only complaint that she has is that men don't go through pregnancy.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points ago

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Adoption

[–]PhoenixAvenger 1 point2 points ago

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Unless you put it up for adoption. (Although there are certainly more than enough kids waiting to be adopted already....)

[–]sanchitosonria 2 points3 points ago

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On a non-serious note, does it look like the woman in the pic is busting a beat to anyone else?

[–]jarand 2 points3 points ago

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Looking for a safe stance on abortion? Me neither.

[–]alragusa 2 points3 points ago

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Abortion For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others!

[–]LastInitial 2 points3 points ago

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With the issue of abortion, I try to take a different stance. That is, why not make abortion a non-issue altogether? Let's attack the issue at the root by preventing unwanted pregnancies in the first place. Of course a few cases will slip through, but we'd prevent more abortions with pregnancy prevention than we would by electing someone who is pro-life.

[–]kajarago 4 points5 points ago

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Except that this argument falls apart with female pro-lifers...

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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funny this is been posted before but she was saying something different looks shopped to me

[–]kristianur 1 point2 points ago

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Well both of these are tecnically true. Although the grammar in the rightmost one is terrible.

Also:
- (Number of pro-choice mothers) / (Number of pro-coice women) ~ (Total number of mothers) / (Total number of women)
- Is she implying that this question should be settled by unwillingly pregnant women?

[–]tibuki 1 point2 points ago

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Pro abortion people could finish this debate very easily.

They just need to show, objectively and scientifically, the exact point the personhood starts.

[–]TrololoTrol 1 point2 points ago*

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Maybe it's at 6 months, two years, when it can talk, who knows.

[–]aDeadSoul 1 point2 points ago

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Strangely, I kind of agree with both signs minus any self righteous indignation or attack mentality. This is why I am a fence sitter on this topic. I really can't say that I am wise enough to pick a side on this topic. It is a real tough one.

[–]picsandnsfwonly 1 point2 points ago

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i see some very easily detected holes in her argument lol...

[–]DutchImmigrant 1 point2 points ago

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So her main and only argument is that men can't have a say in it because they can't get pregnant? Dumb bitch. We be getting kidney stones

[–]summerkc 1 point2 points ago

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IT'S EASY BEING 

*NOT PREGNANT*

WHEN YOU ARE NOT

BEING A WHORE

thats the sign I would have brought.

[–]diablo_man 1 point2 points ago

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This has been reposted a few times, and everytime the general consensus is that the lady got owned.

[–]krum 5 points6 points ago

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I think he won this debate.

[–]throughactions 3 points4 points ago

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Um, the whole murder thing seems a tad more compelling.

[–]DiggyComer 3 points4 points ago

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Ah abortion, the one way conservatives don't like to destroy life.

[–]rubengut 4 points5 points ago

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Wow. I can't believe most of you don't understand her point. You just read the 2 signs and compared "killed" and "pregnant" and assume she was comparing that. That's NOT her point. Do you even notice the one with the "pro-life" sign is a MAN? It's easy to tell others what to do in a particular situation when you know you'll NEVER have to go through it yourself.

[–]MoneyWorthington 11 points12 points ago

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It's easy to disregard all men's opinions on an issue that doesn't affect them at all.

Oh wait...

[–]spaceyraygun 3 points4 points ago

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i wish folks would stop calling it pro-life when they really mean anti-abortion or anti-choice.

[–]Gentleness 2 points3 points ago

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Those jerks. They're trying to trick us with their political twisting!

[–]JCoil4 15 points16 points ago

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I wish folks would stop calling it pro-choice when they really mean pro-abortion. It swings both ways.

[–]quodestveritas 7 points8 points ago

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Well, no. All reasonable pro-choice people are anti-abortion. Obviously the best option is providing good enough education and birth control that abortion is unnecessary. It should be a safe, legal emergency option.

[–]mappp 12 points13 points ago

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Not really because pro-choice is saying you are for choice, as in it should be your choice, whereas pro-abortion makes it sound like they think abortions are awesome!

Whereas pro-life makes it sound like they actually care about life when they don't consider the expected mothers life at all.

[–]bonerbambina 1 point2 points ago

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No, it's pro-choice. I believe that, if a woman becomes pregnant, she should have the choice of having an abortion. I don't think that women should be forced to have abortions.

[–]Mr_Dobalina 4 points5 points ago

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I'd be fine with pro-abortion and anti-abortion. Pro-life is such a silly term. It's also quite ironic that a lot of the so called "pro-life" politicians support the death penalty.

[–]SomeNetworkGuy 11 points12 points ago

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It isn't ironic at all. There is a clear distinction from a baby who hasn't had the chance to breath fresh air, enjoy Christmas or birthdays, taste candy, ride on an amusement park ride and many of the other things we take for granted and someone who is sentenced to the death penalty has had their chance at life and have decided to take someone else's life away from them.

Please don't make us pro-life people seem petty or otherwise ignorant in our stances.

[–]Mr_Dobalina 0 points1 point ago

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So you know for a fact that not even a single innocent person has been executed by the criminal justice system in the USA?

Sorry, but no matter how you try to rationalize it, calling yourself "pro-life" and supporting the death penalty is hypocrisy.

Also I wasn't trying to make anyone seem petty or ignorant, I'm merely pointing out what's quite obvious. The fact that you take it that way is quite interesting, however.

[–]czhang706 1 point2 points ago

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Really? Hypocrisy?

How many chances does an unborn fetus have to appeal it's untimely demise? I'm sure the US has executed innocents and that is certainly wrong. But it isn't exactly the same thing as an abortion. If you are saying that if you are anti-abortion you must also be anti-death penalty, then if you are pro-abortion you must also be pro-death penalty right? You have ridiculously oversimplified the situation.

[–]LeSpatula 0 points1 point ago

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You're right, you can't compare that. By having an abortion, you just "kill" an unaware cell cluster. By killing a man, you kill a full self-aware man with experiences, knowledge and friends.

[–]czhang706 1 point2 points ago

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It is under the assumption that if you are pro-life, you consider that cell cluster alive and it's own sovereign entity.

[–]Vinura 1 point2 points ago

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She needs a bigger sign.

[–]cerialthriller 1 point2 points ago

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i love the trailer park in the background.

[–]speaktodragons 1 point2 points ago

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How about this? Make abortion illegal accept medical reasons, life of mother etc in exchange for the same family / medical leave benefits as Europe.

[–]drodjan 1 point2 points ago

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This is a repost and also a terrible argument for pro-choice. Downvoted for both reasons.

[–]DannyCavalerie 1 point2 points ago

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Older than the internet

[–]monkeyfish 1 point2 points ago

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I'm pro-choice, and male, but If I were ever in that situation, I don't think I could ever be able to push towards abortion. Doesn't have anything to do with religion or killing, it's just that I feel like I have an obligation, and it's a risk that I took. Of course there are a lot of factors, as I do have a stable job yadda yadda yadda. And I guess I'm not too keen on banging girls that I haven't at least been on a date with. I'm probably a hypocrite.

[–]Toastmaster_General 3 points4 points ago

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A lot of women that are pro-choice in principle would not terminate their own pregnancies. They're not hypocrites, pro-choice just means supporting bodily autonomy. That the option's there, should anyone choose it.

[–]smemily 0 points1 point ago

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I'm pro-choice and female, but have never had an abortion, and don't see myself having one. But it's not about me personally.

[–]crazydaze 2 points3 points ago

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The main reason why I don't have a view on abortion is her statement. As a man I will never be pregnant. Who am I to say what someone else can or can't do to their own body?

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points ago

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what if it was your sperm that is involved?

[–]crazydaze 0 points1 point ago

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I'd have to say so be it. It's not my choice and if I'm having unprotected sex then I'm ready for a baby. If it's an accident of some sort it's still her choice to do what she wants. If she decides to keep it I'm there, and if she decides to abort I'll hold her hand in the clinic.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points ago

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Once you try to apply this logic to other situations you encounter in politics you might see how dumb it it really is.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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Yes, that viewpoint is the death knell of political and logical discourse. What supposedly unites us is rational thought, the belief that reason can prevail over passion and subjectivity.

[–]throwawaymechanic37 1 point2 points ago

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Sometimes a parent can not take care of a child, the child gets the Flu, and it dies anyways. With an abortion, they can keep the child from living a short, painful life. And imagine the pain the parents must feel, holding their now born child watching it die. How much they must feel like a failure. What kind of sick fuck are you to judge them? You don't know the parents, you don't know the child.

How about instead of protesting outside of planned parenthood, you stand outside with signs saying "We'll adopt your child if you can't take care of it" How many of you pro-life people have actually adopted a child or two instead of just protesting while these children are forced to live without being able to afford medication or food.

There are people working at orphanages taking care of dozens of these kids. If you're going to be pro-life, actually do something about it. Prove it to us that you're willing to be selfless and help someone you don't even know.

You know those charities hardly do shit. Go to an orphanage and adopt. Otherwise shut your damn mouth.

[–]Wakamezake 3 points4 points ago

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How about instead of protesting outside of planned parenthood, you stand outside with signs saying "We'll adopt your child if you can't take care of it" How many of you pro-life people have actually adopted a child or two instead of just protesting while these children are forced to live without being able to afford medication or food.

You'd be surprised about pro-lifers and their willingness to help raise unwanted (unborn) babies, i don't have a link but i think some of them even wanted to get impregnated with leftover fertilized eggs.

[–]TrololoTrol 2 points3 points ago

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Yeah let's napalm Africa starving people!

Maybe jews, poor people, low QI and others next =)

[–]insomattack 0 points1 point ago

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Love the USA hat. Classic.

[–]PhotoShopNewb 0 points1 point ago

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So it's easy to be prochoice when your prego? So, overpopulation is a scam???

[–]Durpadoo 0 points1 point ago

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shes just a spiteful ho.

[–]Ljt216 0 points1 point ago

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I do not think this is true

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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At least make up a good title for the repost, "so true" isn't really an awesome title in any way. At least make it clever.

[–]orangebanna 0 points1 point ago

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How come the right never brings up liberal hypocrites like myself who are pro abortion but anti death penalty?I ussually don't give a fuck about being a hypocrite. People use the word as a way to force people into this bullshit black and white world that does not exist. It does bother me that I'm simple when it comes to this.

[–]bmleon2002 0 points1 point ago

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It's*

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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It's nice to see most of the comments agree that being pregnant is not on the same level as being dead.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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It's easy to enjoy reddit when you have a computer.....wait.

[–]Mixed_Advice 0 points1 point ago

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There are so many better options to write:

"It's easy being pro-life, when you're not the one carrying your incestuous father's baby."

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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I'd rather be pregnant than dead.

[–]LoremEpsom 0 points1 point ago

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No doctor would tell you that life does not begin at conception. /libertarian. I don't understand why people fall on the sides of this issue that they do, and never have. I'm almost 30.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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Repost.

[–]picsandnsfwonly 0 points1 point ago

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i think its funny how pro choice people are generally anti death penalty

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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Speaking personally. It's easy to not care either way, when you're FOREVER ALONE.

[–]Destroyer01 0 points1 point ago

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It's easy to say your pro life until your the one that knocked the girl or are knocked up and are stuck with the decisions of being a teen parent, or a parent who isn't emotionally, mentally, mature, or even in a financial situation to have a child these days.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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Look at this fucking hipster.

[–]Raplesyrup1 0 points1 point ago

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Theyre both valid points of view.

[–]In_the_East 0 points1 point ago

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Peter Singer had an interesting view on it. The argument many pro-lifers use is summarized as:

  • It is wrong to kill an innocent human being.
  • A human fetus is an innocent human being.
  • Therefore it is wrong to kill a human fetus.

Most people argue about the second point (is the fetus human, etc). Singer says of course it is human (just a different point along the same path the rest of us took); rather, the third point is the one that he disagrees with: it is, actually, okay to kill a fetus/human/baby under a number of conditions.

I do not agree with his full conclusions, but still, something worth reading.

EDIT: formatting

[–]FightGar 0 points1 point ago

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Its easy to post a politics topic in a different subreddit, if it appeals to reddit's general opinion and has to do with a moderately attractive female.

[–]collin_ph 0 points1 point ago

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It's easy to make a wrong decision when your hormones are all out of whack.

[–]TakesOneToNoOne 0 points1 point ago

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Because being pregnant is so much worse than being killed. eyeroll

[–]LittleMissGamerGeek 0 points1 point ago

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Touchy subject you got there. Well all I can say is, being a grown adult with a steady job, if I got pregnant now, morally I couldn't go through with an abortion. There are other options, like adoption/ morning after pills. If you'd asked me the same question when I was lets say, sixteen I would have said differently. I know all the "sex education" in the world would not have stopped me from being a teenager. Shit happens, condoms break and pills are missed. Yes pregnancy takes it's toll, atheistically, emotionally, physically and your body will never be quite the same. I think that's a big issue for a lot of women who are not ready to be pregnant. (Setting motherhood aside, taking adoption into consideration, it's the state of being pregnant, not the after care that most women are concerned with.) Not to mention the father who is equally morally responsible, does not have to endure the effects of the pregnancy, they have a "choice" by default, and a lot of woman feel they deserve the same. I'm sure there have been scenarios where the father wants to be a father and raise the child on their own but the mother does not wish to be pregnant. That's a hard decision to make as to what is right. Make a woman go through 9 months of pain, sickness, physical transformation that will last the rest of her life, and 36 hours of labor she does not wish to take part in. Or deny a life and a fathers right to raise that life? Maybe if each case was subject to physiological and moral testing, as each case would be different and then options determined based on that evaluation? I believe in the right of choice and even if I don't agree with yours, I'll flight to defend your right to make that choice, and maybe someday we'll all agree to disagree and get on with it.

[–]mistahkurtzhedead 0 points1 point ago

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her sign is smaller, therefore irrelevant.