use the following search parameters to narrow your results:
e.g.reddit:pics site:imgur.com dog
reddit:pics site:imgur.com dog
see the search faq for details.
advanced search: by author, community...
1,504 users here now
For non-U.S. politics and news please consider /r/WorldPolitics or /r/WorldNews (N)
Please Do Not:
Editorialize the titles of your link submissions or they may be removed. Your headline should match the article's headline as closely as possible, to avoid misrepresenting the gist or facts of the article. Note, the "no editorializing" rule does not apply to self-posts. For those, standard guidelines of reddiquette apply.
Post self-posts which contain abusive or provocative language with perceived intent to incite hatred. Such posts may be removed.
Manipulate comments and posts via group voting, which is against reddit TOS - such content will be removed, and repeat offenders will be banned.
Use "BREAKING" in your titles. (*) as they will be removed
Post users' personal information (*) as they will be removed
Submit images with little or no substance or images of text. Political cartoons are allowed only if linked to the original source or author; those submitted via imgur or similar will be removed.
Report a submission just because you don't like it. The report function is only for spam and inappropriate content. If you report something, please message the moderators as to the reason you feel it is inappropriate.
Use link shorteners or redirectors, or use ALL CAPS.
If you think your submission has been autobanned, please message the moderators.
Requirement for sidebar listing: 1000 subscribers.
Full list of related subreddits, including those under 1000 subscribers
Follow us at
reddit is a source for what's new and popular online. vote on links that you like or dislike and help decide what's popular, or submit your own! learn more ›
Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice (i.imgur.com)
submitted 1 year ago by schwanky
[–]livingfortoday 361 points362 points363 points 1 year ago
Why can't I be pro-choice and anti-abortion?
[–]iranintoavan 60 points61 points62 points 1 year ago
I would assume that is most people that are pro-choice. I don't think there are many people out there that are pro-abortion. It's not like people are encouraging abortions for fun and stuff. No one WANTS to get an abortion so I would argue most are pro-choice and anti-abortion.
[–]texmed 316 points317 points318 points 1 year ago
Who says you can't? I personally am against having abortions, but I'll support a woman's right to make her own choice. I can't go around forcing my belief on others, just like I wouldn't want someone forcing theirs on me. To each their own.
[–]godofpumpkins 43 points44 points45 points 1 year ago
I'm not sure I understand your position. Is that a "you should be able to choose to abort, but I think it's wrong" or "I think abortion is horrible, but is definitely the lesser of two evils"?
Because I don't think anyone (except for the pro-death person at the top of this thread) is actually pro-abortion. It's a horrible and traumatic event for the women who get them, and is almost never an easy decision. Nobody likes them, but the alternative is worse. I'm not against abortions on principle, but would prefer them not to occur (by better prevention mechanisms and education and such).
[–]powerlurker 12 points13 points14 points 1 year ago
why do you think it has to be traumatic? Serious question.
[–]bearington 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago
Most women I've spoken to say it's traumatic primarily because they're called murderers on a daily basis. It's hard to not feel bad when billboards and bumper stickers everywhere talk about how horrible a person you are.
[–]sonnyclips 37 points38 points39 points 1 year ago*
It might be easy for some women, but it doesn't matter because it's none of our business.
[–]superiority 22 points23 points24 points 1 year ago*
It's a horrible and traumatic event for the women who get them
Some of them, perhaps.
edit: some people find out they are pregnant, get an abortion, and are not particularly concerned (and certainly not traumatised) by it. It's a fact. Not everybody thinks abortion is some sort of horrible crime, not everybody needs therapy sessions to deal with. Some people move on with their lives.
[–]coldtoescolderheart 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago
It's a horrible and traumatic event
Come on, let's kill this myth. While it may be for some, birth and post-partum depression can be just as horrible and traumatic, but you don't hear many people arguing against babies on that basis. Women who have abortions are no more likely to have mental problems than any other women, and (anecdotally) most of the women I know have simply felt overwhelmingly relieved afterward.
Now, that said, it is a medical procedure, and no medical procedure should be taken lightly. I'm with you on the contraception and education. Abortions should be safe, legal and rare.
[–]mMelatonin 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
It's a physically painful event that I would have rather not gone through, but I didn't find it traumatic. I was definitely in the camp of women that you knew: overwhelmingly relieved.
[–]ReflexMan 83 points84 points85 points 1 year ago
Exactly. But people that are pro-life go around assuming that people like us just looooooove killing babies. Woohoo for blind prejudice.
[–]IReallyLikeDinosaurs 227 points228 points229 points 1 year ago
Yeah I hate how all pro-life people go around making generalizations about other groups of people.
[–]kinkypig 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago
Yeah dude, why can't they be more like dinosaurs.
[–]funnyish 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago
I think the principle difference between the two stances is that pro-life people consider abortion as a murder while pro-choice people don't. House said it very well - with morally ambiguous choices the danger is that you can get on a slippery slope and go too far. Even if you can go too far on one case by mistake then it might be questionable (a good example of such a moral choice is pro- or against the death sentence). However with abortion we have a very clearly defined line - the birth. Noone will ever argue that killing the baby after birth is not murder. Therefore I can fully support abortion and my only consideration would be for the mother and for the potential damage to her reproductive system.
Supporting both just doesn't make sense to me because you either consider abortion murder or you don't.
[–]AusIV 18 points19 points20 points 1 year ago
I take a couple of issues with this.
First, I don't think the line is as clearly as you put it at birth. My wife is currently 34 weeks pregnant. The baby won't be born for another six weeks, but if there were damn good reason it could probably survive being born today. In late term cases, I would still value the mother's life over that of the unborn baby, but I take serious issue with aborting a viable fetus just because the mother doesn't want it.
Second, although I don't consider abortion murder, I still consider it to be a bad thing. An abortion is the end of a human life that could have been. Whether it happens to save the life of the mother, because the mother didn't want to raise the child or complete the pregnancy, I consider it to be a tragedy, even if it's not a murder.
That said, I'm still pro-choice. I believe that human beings should have full authority over their bodies, and that no other human being has the right to demand the use of it. While I hold opinions about whether or not a woman should grant her fetus the use of her body for the duration of a pregnancy, I don't believe anyone has the authority to demand that she carry a fetus to term.
[–][deleted] 1 year ago
[deleted]
[–]tigrente 24 points25 points26 points 1 year ago
New rule: If you are protesting abortion, you should also be handing out condoms.
[–]shippfaced 8 points9 points10 points 1 year ago
I think they're usually against that too. Hmm....what's wrong with this picture?
[–]justinasaurusrex 75 points76 points77 points 1 year ago
I'm fairly pro-abortion, to the point where I've begun protesting live births.
[–]ggggbabybabybaby 13 points14 points15 points 1 year ago
Because you're either with us or against us!
[–]ThirdBassist 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago
False Dichotomies ftw
[–]ABabyAteMyDingo 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
Exactly. I mean who the hell is pro-abortion?
[–]xblurr 103 points104 points105 points 1 year ago
I don't think this abortion thing will ever be resolved: one side believes a life is being killed while another side believes a woman's body is her own business.
[–]webbitor 48 points49 points50 points 1 year ago*
There is actually some common ground.
For example, I think many pro-lifers believe that ending a pregnancy to save the woman's life is justified. In my view, that's a small concession, but it's something. And many believe an abortion is acceptable in cases of rape or incest (though I don't understand how they reconcile that).
On the other side, I imagine almost all pro-choice people would like to see fewer abortions, especially among underage girls. Many that I've spoken to advocate for better reproductive education and contraceptive programs.
It's narrow ground to come together on, but it would be good to see some cooperation on that front.
*Edit: first paragraph said pro-choicers, corrected to pro-lifers.
[–]noonelikesrejection[] 13 points14 points15 points 1 year ago
For example, I think many pro-choicers believe that ending a pregnancy to save the woman's life is justified. In my view, that's a small concession, but it's something.
Maybe edit that; I think that you meant to say pro-lifers there.
[–]superiority 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
I think many [anti]-choicers believe that ending a pregnancy to save the woman's life is justified
The official position of the Catholic Church, which has over a billion adherents, is that it is not. They lauded Nicaragua's decision to ban abortion without exception (previously it was banned with medical exceptions) after Daniel Ortega was elected. When Amnesty International declared that abortion was a human right in cases when the pregnancy put the mother's health at risk, the Church hierarchy said that Catholics should stop supporting the organisation. Of course, most Catholics ignore those teachings of the Church that strongly conflict with their own personal beliefs, so I couldn't say that all Catholics hold this position.
Perhaps more disturbing is the fact that, according to Gallup polls, the proportion of the population who think that abortion should be "illegal in all circumstances" generally stays in the 15-20% range. Assuming that all of those people describe themselves as "pro-life" in the same polls (a reasonable belief, I think), that's between 30 and 45 per cent of all anti-choicers who think abortion should not be allowed when the mother's life is at risk.
it would be good to see some cooperation on that front.
This is not going to happen, because anti-choicers are not actually interested in protecting the lives of fetuses. At every opportunity, they attempt to block measures that can improve women's health and reduce the number of abortions. The most recent example is the House bill passed the other day to defund Planned Parenthood. Taxpayer money is already prohibited from being used to fund abortions, so the funding that Planned Parenthood got was used to pay for things like the millions of contraceptives handed out each year, and the millions of cancer screenings and STI tests performed. If you take anti-choicers at face value when they say that they are concerned about the life of fetuses, I am afraid you are hopelessly naive.
[–]0157h7 7 points8 points9 points 1 year ago
I for one am pro life and can't reconcile rape and incest, so I place it right there with any other abortion.
[–]webbitor 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago
Upvoted for logical consistency.
But do you hold funerals for miscarried pregnancies?
[–]forehand 110 points111 points112 points 1 year ago*
Wrong. There are a few of us on both sides that can in fact actually have a reasonable discussion. The reality is that both sides believe the same thing: a woman has a right over her body and that murder is wrong. Really. This is the case. If one can not recognize this then he will not be able to converse, let alone convince, the other side.
But clearly they disagree! Of course they do. They disagree on both those points which they also hold!
Sounds impossible huh? No, it's simple. They disagree about where a womens body begins and where it ends. Is the fetus part of her body, or is it a distinct being (a parasite if you will.) From that disagreement we find the next: Is it murder? If it is the womens body then: No, it's the same as popping a zit. If the fetus is a separate person then: Yes, you can't kill other people, even if they are ruining your life!
Don't get me wrong, there are extremes on both issues on both sides! Some pro-choice folks think it is a person and think murdering said person is fine and some anti-abortion folks think it's not a person and women can't choose what to do with their body.
But I hold that most are not in the extreme and actually do hold to the first two facts that I listed above. I only make this comment so long in the off hope that at least one person will recognize the reality that I speak of for the first time and in so doing find common ground in which to communicate with their fellow man on items about which they strongly disagree.
If I've done my job, then I've presented my concerns in such a way that my view is not apparent without checking my history.
Edit: 2 upvotes?! I have succeeded surprisingly. :D
Edit: Downvoters please do comment so I can learn!
[–]Aluminium_Illuminati 30 points31 points32 points 1 year ago
Brilliant. This is the best point I've seen made about the issue. It's the same with so many controversial issues: people choose a stance that's hard to disagree with (I mean, who is 'anti-life', or 'anti-choice'?) without realising that their position is not actually at odds with their opponents.
People should really be debating the point at which a fetus becomes a separate human being. Now, that's not an easy question to answer - at least in my mind. I have trouble thinking of a newly-fertilised egg as being human, but yet have equal trouble thinking of a foetus, moments before it is born, as not being human. So at what point between those extremes does the change occur? That, to me, is the crux of the issue. It may be difficult (if not impossible) to answer, but at least it's what we should be talking about.
(Someone's probably already mentioned this, I'm sure.)
[–]Zadof 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago
That is one debate, but then again, another one could be: why do women want to get abortion and what can we do to help them change their mind so even if the abortion is legal it doesn't happen.
[–]xblurr 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
This is the right mind set. I know contraceptives (that prevent fertilization) are not 100% effective, but I'm all for easy access to them and sex education if it means there's less abortions.
In terms of rape/incest, I personally believe that the killing of that life (big surprise- I'm pro-life) would be acceptable. It's hard to explain or reconcile that. It's just a grey area: when is the start of life that can be universally agreed upon.
It's also grey because both sides have to find some compromise.
[–]Alanna 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
The problem with that mindset is that once you acknowledge it's nobody's business but the woman in question whether she gets an abortion or not, you have absolutely no ground or leg to stand on to convince her otherwise. Witness pro-choice reactions to the bill presented (did that ever get passed?) in Oklahoma last year which required women to get ultrasounds before abortions. People were up in arms about this. All it required was that the woman know what she was aborting-- but people were claiming this was invasive and insulting to women.
[–]shippfaced 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
Well, since late-term abortions aren't allowed in this country, I don't think anyone's arguing that a foetus, seconds away from being born isn't alive. However, personally, I think of it like this: if I were unable to breathe on my own, feed myself, basically on life support, I would want the plug pulled. I'm not really alive. Would you be able to do that? I think it's basically the same thing. You're pulling the plug on this foetus that isn't really alive, as it can't provide for itself in the most basic of ways. Now obviously babies aren't going around hunting down animals for food or anything, but they can breathe on their own, and mothers are pretty much always there to feed them. I dunno, maybe that doesn't make sense. I just woke up.
[–]swankyfive 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago
About your life support argument, I see where you're going. But I wouldn't want the plug pulled if I was about to be getting off of said life support though.
[–]squigs 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
one side believes a life is being killed
A lot of them seem to be inconsistent though. Some (not all) still approve of abortion in the case of rape or incest which would appear to contradict "a child's right to life".
another side believes a woman's body is her own business.
And many (but again not all) of these people would probably draw the line at late third trimester abortion - at the point where the child is more-or-less fully developed.
I'm certainly in the latter category, and so don't use the argument of a "woman's right to choose". It's a soundbite. It's a factor but it's not the entire argument, because the entire argument is a lot more nuanced.
[–]jurble 244 points245 points246 points 1 year ago
I never understood the abortion debate. But then, I am a robot.
Beep boop.
[–][deleted] 83 points84 points85 points 1 year ago
abort, retry, ignore?
[–]SwiftyLeZar 25 points26 points27 points 1 year ago
Abort, definitely. If that doesn't work, retry.
If all else fails, ignore.
[–]IPromiseImHuman 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago
Unlike you, I fully comprehend the plight of these humans because I am one.
[–]outwrangle 14 points15 points16 points 1 year ago
10101 11101 01010 00110 00010
Know what I mean?
[–]DeLoreanMotorCars 57 points58 points59 points 1 year ago
I'm pro choice, but I have no problem understanding why someone would be pro-life. I'm glad I will never have to make that choice. (I don't have an ovary)
[–]jbhelms 40 points41 points42 points 1 year ago
I too am pro-choice, but I think that it should almost never happen. I am very pro sex education. There are lots of things you can do to keep from getting pregnant. Use a condom AND birth control, and if the condom breaks then use the morning after pill. But if all those fail, I think until the fetus is able to survive on it's own it is not a baby.
FYI, the most surefire way of avoiding an unwanted pregnancy is to be gay :P
[–]Agent-A 27 points28 points29 points 1 year ago
In America this can also help you avoid an unwanted marriage.
[–]outwrangle 7 points8 points9 points 1 year ago
You don't have to be gay to do it up the butt. :P
[–]Ninja_Surgeon 7 points8 points9 points 1 year ago
My semen is so strong it gets girls pregnent in the bum. As well as men.
[–]ThirdBassist 7 points8 points9 points 1 year ago
You sound like an incredible lady.
[–]dinnercoat 64 points65 points66 points 1 year ago
Whenever I see/hear abortion debate I always think of this article.
The only moral abortion is my abortion
[–]JANETRON 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago
Thank you for this article, it is a really great read on the issue.
[–]forevernomad 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago
I always think of this video. One question
[–]crecon 568 points569 points570 points 1 year ago
I'm pro DEATH.
WAY too many fucking humans on Earth.
[–]Souzetsu 259 points260 points261 points 1 year ago
Hey, baby. Want to kill all humans?
[–]-Emerica- 85 points86 points87 points 1 year ago
-Heard in Bender's voice
[–]_this_guy 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
This.
[–]reflion 10 points11 points12 points 1 year ago
I'm a baby at risk for abortion. Heck yes!
[–]doody 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
I’ve a hunch you’re not. (but, if you are; it’s a flawed plan.)
[–]normallyerratic 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
Genius already, and not even out of the womb. Our schools just won't suit him...
[–]SimulatedSun 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
Our schools just won't suit him...
better abort
[–]Nicoscope 30 points31 points32 points 1 year ago
I agree with you, and I am doing something about it, every day, many times a day.
I'm a smoker.
[–]lurkerturneduser 14 points15 points16 points 1 year ago
And it's not like the dead ones can say no or fight back.
[–]jamar0303 17 points18 points19 points 1 year ago
Maybe not NOW...
Won't be so confident if they come back looking for your brains...
[–]Yossome 11 points12 points13 points 1 year ago
Abortion zombies?
[–]TheRentIsToDamnHigh 38 points39 points40 points 1 year ago
care to lead the way in solving the problem?
[–]GiantSquidd 60 points61 points62 points 1 year ago
Like some kind of ...solution?... to solve everything... once and for all?
[–]SpaceViking 25 points26 points27 points 1 year ago
It would have to be a solution to deal with it forever though, something a bit more final.
[–]dooglies 18 points19 points20 points 1 year ago
A solution to end all solutions.
Yes...
A final solution.
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago
With a final countdown...
[–]dezmd 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
Sounds like something that would come out of Europe
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago
Like, something final, you know? A solution that would last for 1000 years? Maybe?
[–]crecon 33 points34 points35 points 1 year ago*
Absolutely. Already am leading they way. One way is by not proliferating. Now, if what you're trying to do is make a snyde or funny remark about killing myself, I'd say I can't do that. I wouldn't do that to myself (much as I might want to) or advocate that another person walking this Earth should do that to themselves. The topic of suicide, however, is an entirely different thing from what the original poster is referring to.
[–]justaguess 15 points16 points17 points 1 year ago
Thank you for not breeding. If you're not going to kill yourself, please remember that you have the freedom to cause humans to lose their lives, accidentally of course.
[–]mentat 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago
Perhaps you'd like to join the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement.
It's really too bad that it's the more intelligent people who are deciding not to breed.
[–]redwing634 9 points10 points11 points 1 year ago
She has kind of a terrible argument.. it's like saying "It's easy to be pro-choice when you're a parent of a 6 year old" to argue in favor of killing children you can't handle.
[–]nevinera 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago
It's not easy to be on either side of this 'debate'.
Both sides keep pretending that they're disagreeing about rights - who has what right, and which right is more important. But that's not what they disagree on at all - the real issue is about what constitutes a person. And there is no science to defend either side of what is essentially a purely philosophical question.
Stop glaring at the 'pro-lifers' for trying to take away your rights over your own body; if you really belived that the not-quite-baby inside you was a full-fledged person, you'd probably be picketing with them.
Stop picketing abortion clinics, shame is not the right tool for ANY job. If you feel that strongly about the issue stand outside the clinic with a sign that says 'I will adopt your baby, and raise it in a loving household. Please let me."
And for fuck's sake, chill out everyone.
[–]Probably_immortal 35 points36 points37 points 1 year ago
I love how our science is very basic and we can't decide on abortion. I can't wait till we know what genetic disorders our children will have then that will complicate things a bit. I think that people who discover that their child will die at the age of 8 because of leukemia might make a different decision. Would I blame them? Fuck no.
[–]asininequestion 48 points49 points50 points 1 year ago
Watch Gattaca.
[–]WhatDidYouSayToMe 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
You have no idea how happy this comment makes me. I watched the first half(ish) when I was on a trip to Germany 1 1/2 years ago. Never found out the title and couldn't finish it. Now I can. Thanks.
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago
Well you could've just asked reddit, man!
As seen on /r/AskReddit...
Dear AskReddit: What is that movie that I saw halfish the way through during my trip to Germany?
[–]rz2000 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
Believe it or not, a sentence or two describing any part of the first half would have been enough to get a dozen people saying its name.
[–][deleted] 17 points18 points19 points 1 year ago
I was born with a fun condition that will probably kill me at the age of 30-something. If I had a fetus test positive for the same thing fuck yeah I would abort in a heartbeat.
[–]pdb01 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago*
Why?
We're all going to die someday. With your logic you'd abort everyone. It's not how long you live that counts, it's what you experience in that time that does.
You have every right to live your own life as you choose. You have no right whatsoever to decide how worthwhile another life is on their behalf.
[–]BellsSC2 57 points58 points59 points 1 year ago
To me this actually illustrates the imbalance for the argument. If you are pro-choice, you HAVE to argue on the basis of whether or not the baby is a "life."
Being pregnant and being killed are magnitudes apart. If what is happening is the killing of a child, the guy in this photo is clearly in the right and the woman is heartless. That is the only sensible place for the debate to occur.
[–]Tiffehx3 22 points23 points24 points 1 year ago*
I completely agree with you and I think this is the pivotal issue where pro-lifers and pro-choicers will NEVER be able to compromise on.
Pro-lifers will always see abortion as the killing of the unborn no matter at what stage the pregnancy is at. They believe (as do I) that life starts at conception, therefore it is wrong to have an abortion. I don't want to deprive anybody of their rights, but that's what I feel.
Pro-choicers will almost always see abortion as a woman's choice. The 'cells' are not a baby yet and therefore it is not 'murder'. The woman can choose if she wants to keep this 'potential baby' or if she doesn't want it and disposes of it.
Unless we can conclusively prove (which is near impossible) that the embryo is considered a human being and therefore should be afforded the rights of a human being, abortion will always exist as a choice.
EDIT: I just wanted to add: "Forget whether it'll tax the already failing system or if the mother is not financially stable or whatever 9384754976 problems can occur. If the "bunch of cells" is a human/person then murder is not right under any circumstances. That is why even though people often tell me "BUT THINK OF ALL THE PROBLEMS THAT WILL OCCUR!!!!" I still cannot stand by abortion. (special exceptions for special cases withstanding)
[–]lestratege 12 points13 points14 points 1 year ago
It is not a belief to say that life starts at conception, it is a scientific fact. If 2 cells were found on Mars, we'd claim to have found life on Mars, and rightly so. The question is whether this life is worth more than a mosquito's.
[–]wingspantt 8 points9 points10 points 1 year ago
I think it's more accurate to ask, "Does personhood begin at conception?"
[–]SkittlesUSA 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
But then you validate extremely unjust and subjective standards to grant human life "personhood."
Many people have deprived human beings of "personhood" on the standards of race, sex, age, orientation. The inalienable right to life must be free of subjective standards of "personhood" and apply to all innocent human life.
[–]gabe2011 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago
You're actually right on that. Imagine the news cycle if we got to Mars and found a tiny amoeba. They would be all of over it; but somehow a clump of cells that starts in a human being as a new life is a bacterium that needs to be "removed". Also, another point, most people celebrate their "birthdays" on the wrong day; they are 9 months late. You aren't magically made in 9 months. It's a process that composes part of your life. That's my reasoning.
[–]pdb01 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago
Um, it's called a "Birth" "day" for a reason, and it is celebrated exactly when it should be.
[–]gabe2011 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago
Yes but it's incorrect. People say you are 20 when in reality most people are actually closer to 21. This throws off the whole idea that we age when we get pushed from the birth canal. Our birthday is meaningless; conception is the absolute point of the beginning of life.
[–]TaargusTaargus 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
I see your point but it would only be wrong if it were called "lifeday" or something of that sort. Birthday is simply your day of birth. It doesn't really imply one way or another when you came into being.
[–]yellowstone10 9 points10 points11 points 1 year ago
If you are pro-choice, you HAVE to argue on the basis of whether or not the baby is a "life."
I suggest reading some Peter Singer for an alternative viewpoint.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer#Abortion.2C_euthanasia_and_infanticide
[–]TheRentIsToDamnHigh 15 points16 points17 points 1 year ago
abortion is a very contentious issue, the heart of the problem is that people demand you to be either pro-life or pro-choice, this just polarizes the whole debate and shuts out people whose opinions and questions we need in order to get a workable solution. the matter at hand is complicated; at what point do you consider a fetus to be a baby? what methods do you want to see implemented to reduce abortions (sex ed, abstinence ed, family planning etc...), do you philosophy agree on the autonomy of a person on how they treat their body ( for any and all situations), are we ready to set up a social service net to ensure the welfare of the child and family if we do prohibit abortions? for some things in life, the answer can not be contained in a headline or a tweet
[–]Ptylerdactyl 9 points10 points11 points 1 year ago
I agree wholeheartedly. I think abortion is definitely one of the issues where both sides have valid points.
It bothers me that the pro-life people think they can tell everyone else what to do.
It bothers me that the pro-choice people often claim that no man has a valid opinion on abortion. Yet when it comes time to assign responsibility for a child, a man without initiative on the subject is not doing his part.
[–]Ptylerdactyl 59 points60 points61 points 1 year ago
I feel like this takes an unnecessary step toward putting up abortion as simply the solution to an inconvenient pregnancy. Of the many distraught women who have come into our clinic for counseling who are considering abortion, only one has ever stated that they simply wish to abort as a means of very late contraceptive. To imply that pregnancy on its own justifies abortion spits in the face of the rape and incest victims who are legitimately traumatized and are looking to abort for their health and/or sanity.
One of the largest criticisms of abortion, after the purely insane criticisms, is that people take it too lightly and use it simply as a "get out of responsibility free" card when they are lax with their protection. Please, please don't lend credence to this criticism.
[–]ventomareiro 16 points17 points18 points 1 year ago
I would rather that people can get an abortion (which is not a funny business to begin with) than force them to rise unwanted children.
[–]turdoftomorrow 7 points8 points9 points 1 year ago
I mean, that's kind of what it is, though, isn't it? Is it possible for a pregnancy to be convenient if you don't want to have the child?
As you explained in your comment, most people don't consider abortion as a form of contraceptive. How about, instead of worrying about giving crazy people fodder, we just call them on their bullshit and not lend their baseless arguments credence by acting like we respect their completely made up crazy thoughts?
[–]CaptOblivious 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago
If you aren't anti-war then you aren't pro-life, you are just anti-choice.
[–]ryguy82 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago*
Why can't people just live their lives and mind there own business? The same goes for people that are anti gay. In what way does it affect you? It doesn't so get another hobby and stop acting as though you have moral authority on every issue!
[–]aoei43 15 points16 points17 points 1 year ago
Being killed is more serious than being pregnant. The woman's sign makes pro-choice seem selfish and uncaring, and less important than the pro-life position. The only people who would agree with her are already pro-choice, and therefore she's wasting her time.
The only reasonable excuse for abortion is that the fetus does not deserve human rights. Pro-choice people should stick to that argument and develop it, otherwise they're just preaching to the converted. As soon as someone accepts that the fetus is a human being, then abortion is no longer morally acceptable except under the same circumstances that would lead to the death of an adult (such as serious risk to the mother).
Likewise, pro-life people should forget the bible quotes and stick to "the fetus is a human being" argument.
[–]GSaiya 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
I think its a little more nuanced than that. I don't think its just a binary "fetus does or does not have human rights". The stage of the fetus's development is also a factor that should be considered in whether it has rights.
[–]GoatBased 14 points15 points16 points 1 year ago
A higher percentage of males are pro-choice than females.
40% of men believe abortion should be generally available, and 37% of women think it should be. 20% of men think it should not be permitted, and slightly more women, 24%, agree.
Source: CBS Opinion Poll
[–]phantomneko 11 points12 points13 points 1 year ago
I'm pro-choice because I've seen what happens to the children who are unwanted and go in to the system. Most of them wish they were dead. Most of them have tried to kill themselves. The foster/adoption system is so fucked and the people in it are so fucked that these kids feel like they're better off dead. I never wish for that kind of suffering for anyone. Why should someone's religious dogma force a child to be in that abuse?
[–]jmf1234 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
well then maybe the answer is to fix that system rather than kill them off?
[–]FSMacolyte 108 points109 points110 points 1 year ago
When my mother was pregnant for me, I tested false-positive for spina bifida. The doctor told her to consider abortion, and she didn't because she didn't feel it was the right thing to do, but if she'd been the sort of person who felt they weren't capable of dealing with that kind of child then I wouldn't mind having been aborted.
[–][deleted] 48 points49 points50 points 1 year ago
When my mother was pregnant with me I scored a false positive for Downs and the doctor recommended she abort. She made a point in not aborting because at the time she was participating in campaigns for Reagan's election and campaigns against abortion rights and believed it was morally wrong. I was born with severe, painful physical birth defects, but no mental ones and no extra chromosomes. I have a picture and news clipping of my mother and father speaking at an anti-abortion rally and holding me up before a crowd as their believed proof that abortion is wrong.
Fast forward 23 years and I began to question the beliefs forced upon me as a child. As I became a young woman I came to see how these laws and decisions had the potential to impact my own future and and I grew up to be a huge proponent of abortion rights. I believe abortion procedures and contraception are tremendously important factors in the freedom that women enjoy today. I never worry "what if I didn't exist" because that doesn't matter. If I didn't exist. I wouldn't exist. What matters is the right of half the population to not be considered criminals for wanting to make decisions (and sometimes very difficult ones) about their reproductive freedom.
[–]FSMacolyte 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago*
This made me tear up a bit... This is so true, thank you for sharing.
To be honest, I agree with people's right to be pro-life (as in, encouraging of other people to not have abortions) but the moment they try to force their opinions on other people, that in my eyes is wrong.
Edit: Wrong, not wring.
[–]aradil 169 points170 points171 points 1 year ago
Fretting about those sorts of things is silly anyway. There are an infinite number of events that could have transpired that could have resulted in you never having existed.
What is it a big deal if your mom happened to get to choose the event? Is it really different from deciding to wear a condom?
[–]Quazifuji 37 points38 points39 points 1 year ago
On the other hand, you can take this is the opposite direction and ask if it's really any different from her killing the baby after giving birth.
I'm pro-choice, but I do think the argument's fairly complicated and pretty much comes down entirely to subjective morals. I think a woman having the right to choose should take priority over the life of an unborn baby, but I also can't come up with a concrete argument as to why aborting a fetus should be a personal choice when killing a baby isn't, even though I feel strongly that it's the case.
[–]SaladProblems 9 points10 points11 points 1 year ago
Well, to be fair the baby is no longer part of her body once it's born. I think that pretty much everyone can agree on that. When the child becomes human before birth is truly subjective, hence my pro-choice stance.
Personally I am also happy that after the third trimester it is generally not possible to get an abortion (though I would certainly sacrifice the unborn to save the mother any day of the week if it's a health issue).
Some religions do actually believe contraception is a sin, and not so long ago some batshit insane member of a state legislature wanted to start investigating miscarriages...
I know the slippery slop argument is evidence of poor debating skills, but I do feel when it comes to acknowledging a fetus as a fully protected human being it opens a lot of doors that should stay shut.
[–]metatron5369 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago
Well, to be fair the baby is no longer part of her body once it's born. I think that pretty much everyone can agree on that. When the child becomes human before birth is truly subjective
No, not really. Several cultures around the world traditionally held off naming until it was apparent that the child would survive infancy. No need to name someone who never existed. Even then, infanticide happens everyday today. Just look at the missing generation of Chinese women.
Humanity has been killing their children this since before the dawn of man: the Ancient Greeks considered infant sacrifice abhorrent, but exposure wasn't "technically murder": the newborn could be discovered and taken away, and the cause of death was "natural causes".
In Rome, it was as casual to some as abortion is now (if the anecdotal evidence on Reddit is to be believed) - This is a letter from a husband to his pregnant wife c. 1BCE:
Know that we are still even now in Alexandria. Do not worry if when all the others return I remain in Alexandria. I beg and beseech of you to take care of the little child, and as soon as we receive wages I will send them to you. If-good luck to you!-you bear offspring, if it is a male, let it live; if it is a female, expose it.
You can argue that abortion would solve this, but the end result is the same, I just think people will always find ways to rationalize their decisions in life.
[–]Quazifuji 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
Well, to be fair the baby is no longer part of her body once it's born.
That's certainly a significant part of the argument, and one of the reasons I think everyone can easily that killing a baby that's born is entirely bad. Once the baby's born, its existence is no longer tied to the mother's physical health, only to her lifestyle, and giving a baby up for adoption does not carry the physical trauma or risk of giving birth to it.
I do feel when it comes to acknowledging a fetus as a fully protected human being it opens a lot of doors that should stay shut.
It complicates things, certainly, but it's hard to tell the people who think abortion is indistinguishable from infanticide that we should allow it just to make things simpler. Making things illegal always adds complexity to society, we just have to figure out which things are still worth banning despite the hassle it causes. Usually, it comes down to a question of whether the action causes enough harm to another person or society. With other legal debates like drugs or gay marriage, I think the argument mostly revolves around whether it harms society or not and you can't really make a legitimate case that it causes personal harm to anyone. Abortion's the only issue I know of where there's really a strong debate about whether the action actually causes harm to another person or not, and that debate is pretty much a purely subjective philosophical one, which makes it much trickier to come to any real conclusion.
[–]Deus_Imperator 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago
I dont think my opinion should influence policy or anything, but i dont see much of a difference in abortion vs straight killing a baby after being born.
[–]FSMacolyte 92 points93 points94 points 1 year ago
Exactly! This is why I feel that most people who are "pro-life" are really just "pro-messing-with-other-people's-lives."
[–]tsondie21 159 points160 points161 points 1 year ago
As someone who is on the fence, but has traditionally been pro-life, I can tell you that it is certainly not the case. Most pro-lifers legitimately believe that whatever is growing in a womans uterus is a human being. There are varying views on when exactly that occurs, but most pro-lifers think it is pretty early on. I don't care to hear any arguments about why a cluster of cells isn't a person as that is not the point I am trying to get across. Pro-lifers are for real, they don't want to subjugate others' rights; they just want to save human lives.
It is an easy trap that I am all to privy to fall into, making a caricature of those I disagree with. If we are to move this conversation forward to a place where we can really understand each other's viewpoints and come to a real conclusion, we need to stop placing people in boxes and warping their views in our own heads.
Just as you don't think that human life is worthless, pro-lifers don't get off on taking away choices and repressing women.
It is easy to get caught up
[–]ooglag 30 points31 points32 points 1 year ago
upboat the shit out of this.
If we are to move this conversation forward to a place where we can really understand each other's viewpoints and come to a real conclusion, we need to stop placing people in boxes and warping their views in our own heads.
[–]FSMacolyte 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
Good point. That's why I said "most people who are 'pro-life' ". Some very good friends of mine are strongly pro-life and they genuinely believe in it, and I respect that.
However, it really is a controversial debate because while abortion is arguably murder, it really can better a number of people's lives. Do you feel that abortion is the same degree of murder as killing someone in the prime of their life?
[–]Nougat 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
I'm very interested in your input on this.
The difficulty I have with the "whatever is growing in a womans uterus is a human being" argument is that a huge proportion of pro-lifers are wholly in favor of a "rape or incest" exclusion clause, and people who oppose such a clause are painted as fringe elements by both sides.
But really, if "whatever is growing in a womans uterus is a human being," how is it all right to kill a human being based on the actions of some completely separate people before the human being in question even existed? It doesn't make any sense at all.
Unless you consider this: according to conventional wisdom, the female is the victim in cases of rape and incest. Since she hasn't "acted irresponsibly" in becoming pregnant, but rather had pregnancy "put upon" her, then abortion is okay. Whether terminating a pregnancy is okay or murder depends on whether the woman's actions in becoming pregnant can be judged to be "irresponsible" (by whom is another question). It's not about whether the fetus is a human being or not; it's about whether or not the mother has sinned.
Therefore, I find the pro-life argument about "whatever is growing in a womans uterus is a human being" to be absolutely hollow. Does that make sense? Do you have a different explanation of the rape/incest clause from the pro-life side of things?
tl;dr: Rape/incest exclusion clause makes the pro-life stance about the pregnant woman's behavior, not about whether the fetus is a human. What say you?
[–][deleted] 27 points28 points29 points 1 year ago
Seriously, if a person is so concerned with "saving lives", maybe they should focus on the over a BILLION people already living, who are starving to DEATH.
Right now.
Now.
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago
And why do you assume that we don't? Why do so many pro-choicers bring that up? And how many of them are helping others? I've been told many times that unless I adopt a bunch of people's unwanted children I'm not pro-life but am, in fact, a hypocrite. Know how many people who've said that to me were adopted parents? ONE. In my experience, a lot of people who accuse pro-lifers of not caring aren't doing anything to help others themselves. They are conveniently off the hook for having to help other people's children because they think those children should've been aborted in the first place.
I don't know if you are helping others and I don't want to know; it's not my place to judge you. Just....before you accuse others of not helping, make sure that you are doing something to help, because otherwise it's nothing but hypocrisy.
[–]KolHaKavod 22 points23 points24 points 1 year ago
A pro-lifer could say the same about world hunger activists.
"maybe they should focus on the thousands of babies killed EVERY DAY".
Neither point is relevant.
[–]rollhomet 55 points56 points57 points 1 year ago
As sweet and pity-inspiring as this sounds.. Come on people. I would definitely not want to be murdered, but I wouldn't mind being aborted. I wouldn't know the difference.. Wouldn't miss a thing.
[–]ribosometronome 114 points115 points116 points 1 year ago
You wouldn't miss a thing if you were shot in the head right now, either.
[–]rollhomet 40 points41 points42 points 1 year ago
Shit...
[–]degustibus 18 points19 points20 points 1 year ago
We don't give murderers a pass for killing unsuspecting victims who never experience agony.
[–][deleted] 23 points24 points25 points 1 year ago
My parents confessed they thought about abortion, but to me it's all the same as if they had considered any other form of birth control.
Abortion = no me condom = no me
[–]krazytaxi 10 points11 points12 points 1 year ago
My number one fear is getting pregnant while on the pill and using a condom. I'm a virgin and have no idea what I'd do if I had sex and the condom broke, and the pill failed (even when taking it religiously). Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the pill have a 99% success rate? What if I'm that 1%?
I'm pro-choice, because I'm thinking about what I would do if I ever had to choose. Key word: choose. I have that choice. I don't believe I could ever get an abortion, but that's me. A redditor wrote earlier (and I'm paraphrasing here) that if you don't have control over your body then you are a second class citizen. That resonated with me. I NEVER want someone to tell me what I can and can't do when it concerns my reproductive organs.
When it all comes down to it every single person in this thread is making a choice as to whether or not they are pro-life or pro-choice. Seems to me like you're choosing right there. How about this, I'm telling all the pro-lifers that you HAVE to be pro-choice now. Are you feeling controlled?
I don't care if you are pro-life. Most of me agrees with you. I refuse to make this choice for someone else, however.
[–]thcobbs 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago
Firstly, I agree. It is ultimately your decision. Especially if you are adamant about birth control. You're the one who has to carry the child for nine months and there are serious health concerns for you and the child. My wife nearly died having our daughter... and this isn't the guilt-trip sorta thing. I watched her get a magnesium drip and be rushed off to emergency c-section. NOT something for the weak willed.
However, speaking as a father who loves my daughter dearly. Honestly, I can't imagine my life without her or my wife... At least consider the possible father's actions and reliability.
[–]krazytaxi 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
You are absolutely right. I do need to consider the possible father's views. Truthfully, that thought had not even entered my brain. I really need to consider this whole debate in more detail before having sex. Why can't it just be fun with no consequences? :(
[–]thcobbs 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
Its only as much fun as it is... because its a biological imperative.
Another option is to go the technical virgin route and ensure he likes cunnilingus.
You should be prepared for consequences, no doubt, but if you take proper precautions, the chances of getting pregnant are very very very very small. Use condoms and a hormonal form of birth control, or get a copper IUD if you can afford it (suckers are expensive), and if you want added protection, time your cycles and don't have sex when you're ovulating (which sucks, admittedly, because that's when you're most hormonally inclined). Most unplanned pregnancies happen because people didn't bother to use birth control (just once!) or they didn't use it properly (forgetting to take the pill, taking it with other drugs such as antibiotics that lower its effectiveness, agreeing to pull out and not actually pulling out, not leaving a reservoir in the tip of the condom, etc etc.). So whatever method you use, research the hell out of it and don't be shy about asking your doctor exactly how to use it, what the side effects are, and anything you should know about that could lower its effectiveness. If your doctor is weird at all about discussing this stuff, find a new doctor or visit Planned Parenthood.
If you're that worried about it, as well, I would advise against sex outside a committed relationship, and being very up front with the guy about your feelings on abortion. I have made it very very clear to any guy I've slept with that if I get pregnant, we can discuss options, but he's a daddy, whether or not he chooses to stay with me. Many of the horror stories you hear about are from people who never bothered to discuss the possibility.
Or, yeah, you can go the "everything but" route. Google and get creative. :)
[–]stredarts 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago
Huh, I just saw this protest last Friday. This was a demonstration/gathering in support of Planned Parenthood in Olympia, WA. They had pizza and other wholesome goodies and seemed like they were having a pretty good time.
The church folks, not so much. They come out every Friday with their dead baby signs to protest Planned Parenthood. They also occasionally show up with the same geck at the Evergreen State College, trying to browbeat the libruls. I usually try to ignore them, and I'm really glad this counter protest got together to engage in some alternative messaging.
Really, this isn't just about abortion, this pro-life group is against all of the family planning services Planned Parenthood provides. They are also against the IUD PP and the State provided my for my girlfriend.
So support Planned Parenthood, because sex without babies is good!
I think men should have just as much of a say in the abortion debate, even if they will never themselves have to make the choice, because the question is whether or not the fetus has rights, which all people can have an opinion on. I am pro-choice and a woman, but I think that implying that men's opinions are less important on the subject (as the woman in the photo is doing) weakens our argument.
[–]Mikey129 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago
Do whatever you want to do.
[–]Basye 11 points12 points13 points 1 year ago
I am anti-poverty and taking care of the babies after they are forced to be born. Show me where the "pro-lifers" are strong in that area because it seems to me all they do is thumb their nose in the face of young mothers (especially single moms), when in fact it is their actions which help contribute to this poverty and the endless cycle of unwanted children. Why do they want to close Planned Parenthood which is the #1 distributor of BC pills (to prevent pregnancy). Why don't the pro-life folks give out free BC pills instead of screaming at scared young women in front of clinics? As far as I can see they are "pro-zygote" but nothing close to real "pro-life".
[–]lestratege 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
Completely agree with you. Most US pro-lifers are also against any kind of social service for the unwanted child.
[–]PimpDawg 26 points27 points28 points 1 year ago
How about pro-death? Who's pro choice and for the death penalty? How about pro-life and against death penalty? In catholic countries the pro-lifers are anti-death penalty. I don't get America.
[–]lurkerturneduser 29 points30 points31 points 1 year ago
The Catholic Church in America is anti-abortion and anti-death penalty as well. Just, America is majority Protestant. To my understanding, Catholics use a bible that translates to "thou shall not kill" and Protestants generally use one that says "thou shall/shalt not murder."
[–]AzMoo 8 points9 points10 points 1 year ago
IMO, The death penalty is still murder, it's just state-sanctioned. It's a grey area though because some definitions (definitely not all) include "unlawful" as a condition.
[–]smors 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
I'm going seriously of on a tangent here, sorry. The 10 commandments are from the old testament where, if i remember correctly, the death penalty was very much in use and accepted. That probably means that when the commandments were given by god, executions where not a violation of the commandment.
Not that I think that a 3000 year old book should in any way influence current policy.
[–]The_Prince1513 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago
This is why I believe "Pro-Life" is bad terminology mainly used as a shock word. Most people who are "pro-life" are against the killing of an unborn child; i.e. someone who is completely innocent and has not done anything to warrant such action. The death penalty is entirely different as it concerns people who are largely being killed because of actions that they knowingly committed.
I dunno thats at least how I view the dichotomy.
[–]nixcamic 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
I'm pro-life and don't really understand "pro-life" pro-death penalty pro-war people. Just call your selves anti-abortion, it would be way more accurate.
[–]tetzy 10 points11 points12 points 1 year ago
My penis nullifies my opinion.
[–]Fizxxy 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
Like others have said, one can be pro-choice AND anti-abortion. If I got a girl pregnant, I would leave it up to her. It's her body. Until one has the ability to develop a fetus outside of the mother of origin it is completely up to her. If she asked me I would say I'd prefer her to keep it because I don't like the idea of running away from the consequences of my actions.
As for the debate about fetuses being "people", I'm not a follower of any sort of supernatural belief. Me, you, a fetus; we are all just collections of organic molecules and water. The extent of the definition of "people" is solely a matter of societal practicality.
[–]joecook1987 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
As a Christian guy who honestly hates abortion.
I'm pro-choice.
This however, is a terrible argument for the case.
[–]CaptOblivious 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
Also, I don't think that anyone whom has not adopted an unwanted child and is ready to adopt another one should be allowed to protest against women getting abortions.
[–]dswander 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
George Carlin says it best http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvF1Q3UidWM
[–]bjmarte 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
Maybe you should try them both and see which one is harder.
[–]Mooseheaded 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
If a baby is formed at the time sperm and egg are united, and if the average ejaculation contains 40 million sperm, then a typical ejaculation that does not result in fertilization kills, on average, 20 million babies.
Hell, you actually kill that many babies on fertilizing ejaculations to two significant digits!
[–]smacksaw 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
I know the point is that she is trolling him, but it seems to me after looking at it for a moment that if he were trolling her, her problem seems more trivial than a barb at him for not knowing her situation.
[–]EulerMcEinstein 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
These kind of things always annoy me. Ideally an argument is not weaker just because of who made the argument. Of course that's not completely applicable to this situation but I am a little annoyed at getting told I can't have an opinion on abortion just because I have a penis.
[–]anothernewday 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
the child didnt choose anything. the woman did.
[–]jrm12 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
does anyone realize how much stronger the guy who is pro-life's sign is? im pro-choice but i feel like being killed and being pregnant arent comparable
[–]mca592 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
Sooooo no worries when having sex, and lots-of-choices when you're pregnant? K....
[–]eugenetabisco 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
I have such a mixed feeling about abortions. But, since I am a man, I also believe my opinion really doesn't count. I have absolutely no experience, nor could I ever, at assessing the entire situation.
[–]ChairYeoman 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
More women then men are pro-life. And saying you have to be a women to have an opinion on abortion is like saying you have to be a pedophile to have an opinion on age of consent laws, because "otherwise it doesn't really affect you".
[–]RogerDeanVenture 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
Because pregnant is the same level as death? I feel as if there is a sharp inequality with these two boards.
[–]PersonEveryman 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
I know she's just trying to have a snappy retort, but her statement is flawed. It's easy to be pro-life when you're not the one that's pregnant? Well there are tons of women, that get pregnant, that are pro-life. So her statement doesn't hold much weight. His statement, on the other hand, applies more broadly and makes more sense.
It's like when you hear two people arguing, and the person you agree with is doing a bad job of defending the cause you support. If you're going to go forth and be our spokesman, please do a better job of it.
[–]NomNomNomRawr 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
I believe in a woman's choice. If you believe it's the best choice, take it. But I couldn't have one myself, honestly. It has a lot to do with personal choice. Rather than what society considers right and wrong.
[–]Celarcade 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
Stuff like this makes me angry. Women who deal with unplanned pregnancies don't think about fucking politics regardless of what side of the fence they might sit on. Women who deal with this have enough on their plate. I'd rather focus on helping women who face these situations make sound decisions rather than flashing insensitive signs (yes, PC signs can be insensitive, too).
[–]LSDemon 23 points24 points25 points 1 year ago
Today I saw a bumper sticker that said "Aren't you glad your mom chose life?"
I really wanted to stop them, and explain to them that yes, I am very glad that my mom had a choice. I don't think they understand that the key word in their bumper sticker is not "life", but is in fact "chose".
[–]yellowstone10 24 points25 points26 points 1 year ago
The correct answer to that bumper sticker is "Yes, but I wouldn't be upset about it if she had chosen abortion."
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
I upvoted you because you made me laugh.
But at the same time, I'm glad that I didn't die this morning on my way to get bagels.
[–]tvc_15 9 points10 points11 points 1 year ago
great comment. i wouldn't have wanted a mother that was forced to have me.
[–]skekze 12 points13 points14 points 1 year ago
It's easy to be pro-life, then wait till they grow up, and be all for the death penalty, for the child no one wanted to raise.
[–]kyte13 8 points9 points10 points 1 year ago
Quick! Burn down all the orphanages.
[–]EvilHom3r 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago
I think the names "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are pretty funny. How can you be against life or choice?
[–]webbitor 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
Both groups use different terms for themselves than does the other group. In terms of "branding", I think the pro-life crowd is doing better.
pro-choice (self-describing label) pro-abortion abortionist anti-life
pro-life (self-describing label) anti-abortion (ANOTHER self-describing label) anti-choice
[–]DexterNormal 9 points10 points11 points 1 year ago
An eight week old fetus is a blob of partially differentiated cells. The anti-abortion people do the country a disservice to gloss over that. A third trimester fetus is a baby. The pro-choice people do the country a disservice to gloss over that.
But by all means, let's keep talking past each other for another 40 years. It's good politic$, innit?
[–]reggieband 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
You are just shifting the debate from "is it alive" to "is it human". Before the argument was when did life begin (at conception? at a later date?). If you say: "It is ok to kill life but not ok to kill human life" you'll have to get out a ruler. There is and always will be a significant grey area.
The pro-choicers are quite aware of this new debate. I've read in this thread alone comparisons of the fetus to parasites, suggestions that bleaching a toilet kills more living cells, and eating a steak causes the death of a more advanced life-form. The obvious trick here is dehumanizing. If you dehumanize something then it becomes possible to get people to agree to kill it. And it works for more than just fetuses.
[–]phillipa1990 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago
The thing pro-lifers don't seem to realize is that if abortion is illegal, a lot of women (including me) will just go to some shady back alley and have it done there. Which will mean the needless death of a lot of women, so they're not "saving lives" at all.
Or is life only important when it belongs to something that hasn't been born yet?
[–]H8rade 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago
TIL: Being killed = being pregnant.
[–]ivanolo2010 7 points8 points9 points 1 year ago
Imagine this scenario: a teenage girl gets knocked up accidentally by an irresponsible guy who, upon learning about her pregnancy, decides to abandon her. Her parents find out and send her packing. She has to drop out of high school and get a crappy job to support this unwanted child. She has very little time to take care of him. There's no permanent father figure, except for these sketchy types. As a result of growing up in this environment, he starts hanging out with the wrong crowd and gets in trouble. He ends up in jail, but not before getting a girl pregnant. The cycle repeats itself....
This sequence of events can have multiple variations. Just add a second marriage, siblings, alcoholism, drug addiction, and/or abusiveness to the mix.
What about adoption? Some foster kids bounce from family to family, run away, or get kicked out as soon as they turn 18. They may end up homeless, prostituting themselves, or in jail.
Some of these people may go on public assistance permanently. Isn't this what Republicans complain about?
It may be an unpopular stance, but that's why I support abortion.
[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 1 year ago
They're not pro-life, they're anti-abortion. You gotta love their hypocrisy.
And I never understood the men who are anti-abortion. Wouldn't they want the option to not have an unwanted kid if they accidentally knocked someone up?
[–]niggles 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
This is a revealing comment. Much of the support for abortion stems not from women's desire for choice but from men's desire to avoid responsibility.
[–]themontereyjack 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago
Agreed. Disregarding individual rights, there are too many fucking people as is. It seems pro-lifers only care for the health of the fetus until the moment it pops out of the womb - after that, it's your problem.
[–]toastedtobacco 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago
Abortion as sanctioned murder? What's your point? We go to war, we condemn criminals to death, we kill in self defense. Life isn't as precious as [pro-lifers] make it out to be. Life is all too common on this planet and deciding who dies is nothing new for humanity. I could take your argument seriously coming from a complete pacifist, a conscientious objector. I wouldn't agree but I would take it seriously. You're just all fed up because babies are defenseless and innocent. That's only because they have seen the world yet. The truth is we don't need more babies when we can barely support the population we have, that's just irresponsible. What quality of life will that baby have growing up with a single teen mum? Sure there's a chance it could be a doctor or a lawyer but so might the children we already have if there were people around to take care of them and provide for them. Are you ready and able to adopt all the babies that might be aborted? Can you shoulder that responsibility? Let their souls go back in to the stack and re-issued for later use. You don't know how god works, if there is one. If the deaths we already have fit into his or her or it's plan then abortions are no different. Who are we to interfere with an omnipotent beings greater plan?
[–]fosoren 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago*
I think it's important to think about the fact that the emancipation of women and giving them control over their reproductive cycle, including the right to abort, is one of the most inportant factors in social progress.
Each woman have to make up her mind and decide what is right for her, there is no universal solution that fits everyone.
Edit: We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here. – Richard Dawkins
[–]shenglong[] 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago
The worst part is that effectively the father does not have any say either way. If he doesn't want the kid and the mother does, he still has to support it. If he does, and the mother doesn't, tough shit.
[–]omnivorous 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago
It's even easy when you are the one being killed, because you are a fetus. As in, your comprehension of being killed is essentially non-existent.
[–]sethandtheswan 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago
This is a really weak argument.
[–]LeoLy09 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago
Pro-Choice all the way. People should mind their own. Not your baby, not your problem. It's funny how people can concern themselves with lives they'll never be a part of.
Edit: Only the father should be taken into account when having an abortion. And even then, it's at the mother's discretion.
[–][deleted] 1 year ago*
[–][deleted] 24 points25 points26 points 1 year ago
it's easy to be pro-life when you act like some women aren't so desperate that they'd risk their own death rather than be pregnant.
love how the world is so black and white, don't you?
[–]LaLaVonne 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
Let's just all go back to the good ol' Pre-Roe days when there were no abortions.....oh....wait......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72Hk17V8DqU
[–][deleted] 29 points30 points31 points 1 year ago
Do you think that getting an abortion is an easy decision to make? Do you think that people who get abortions, get pregnant on purpose? Try getting pregnant while on birth control, or while using a condom, or better yet, both. What would you do? And please tell me, how would you feel?
[–]fox_wesley 39 points40 points41 points 1 year ago
"It's easy to make that pro-life sign when you're mentally, emotionally, and financially ready to try to have a child"
[–]Crystal_Cuckoo 16 points17 points18 points 1 year ago
"It's easy to make that pro-life sign when you act like all birth control methods have a 100% success rate."
And if you're Catholic, pregnancy is pretty much unavoidable seeing as all forms of birth control are forbidden.
[–]arkofkey 7 points8 points9 points 1 year ago
Well, if you're going to go down that path, why would somebody devout enough to avoid contraception decide to get an abortion? I'm pro-choice, but this argument doesn't make sense to me.
[–]marquella 12 points13 points14 points 1 year ago
So, you're advocating abstinence? Yeah, that's a rational argument...
[–]UTRocketman 7 points8 points9 points 1 year ago
Actually, technically, it is the most rational argument.
"I want to have sex. However, if I got pregnant, I could not support a child. Thus, I will not have sex at this time."
Emotion and sexuality tend to mess with the rational mind.
NOTE Not advocating for abstinence based education, just that it is the most rational choice.
[–]Elbows 57 points58 points59 points 1 year ago
Wow.....every post these guys act like no one is ever impregnated against their will. R A P E.
[–]TheChosenOne570 15 points16 points17 points 1 year ago
I lean very slightly pro-choice... but lets play Devil's advocate. You are saying aborting a rape baby is acceptable simply because its the product of rape? Sorry, that's not a good argument. If it is considered life, regardless of how it came into being, it should still be treated as any other life. If it is considered life and you are allowed to kill it simply because its father is an asshole, then life must not be very valuable after all.
[–]PleaseFixMyGrammar 31 points32 points33 points 1 year ago
I lean toward the pro-life side of the debate, but I do think an exception should be made for rape victims. After some quick googling, it looks like there are around 32,100 pregnancies a year in the U.S. which are caused by rape. Honestly, that's a lot more than I had thought it would be.
[–]mollay 67 points68 points69 points 1 year ago
Why should an exception be made? I never understand this point of view because it's terribly inconsistent. Most anti-choice people are against abortion because that whole "it's a life!" claim, but why is a rape baby any less ~sacred~? Why is it OK to make an exception for those fetuses?
[–]PleaseFixMyGrammar 10 points11 points12 points 1 year ago
You're right, it is inconsistent, but I still maintain my position. We only have two options, both of which in my mind are evil. On one hand we can force this person who has been through something traumatic and horrible into keeping a baby which has come into being through no fault of her own, a baby which will in all likelihood remind her every day of that horrible experience. On the other hand we can let her decide what she wants to do.
Either way, both choices can result in a life ruined. Might as well let the victim choose. I hope that made some sense.
[–]FMERCURY 29 points30 points31 points 1 year ago
Then you accept the pro-choice view that suffering of the mother takes precedence over the child. From there it's simply a matter of degree.
[–]muyoso 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
I agree with that point. I am not pro life, but I dont understand anyone who is pro life that gives an exception in the case of rape. If you feel that its a child being murdered, then why is it ok to murder the child if the mother went through some horrible shit?
[–]NoMoreNicksLeft 23 points24 points25 points 1 year ago
And every post people like you act as if the 1 million abortions are all due to rape.
all it takes is a username and password
create account
is it really that easy? only one way to find out...
already have an account and just want to login?
login
[–]livingfortoday 361 points362 points363 points ago
[–]iranintoavan 60 points61 points62 points ago
[–]texmed 316 points317 points318 points ago
[–]godofpumpkins 43 points44 points45 points ago
[–]powerlurker 12 points13 points14 points ago
[–]bearington 3 points4 points5 points ago
[–]sonnyclips 37 points38 points39 points ago*
[–]superiority 22 points23 points24 points ago*
[–]coldtoescolderheart 5 points6 points7 points ago
[–]mMelatonin 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]ReflexMan 83 points84 points85 points ago
[–]IReallyLikeDinosaurs 227 points228 points229 points ago
[–]kinkypig 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–]funnyish 6 points7 points8 points ago
[–]AusIV 18 points19 points20 points ago
[–][deleted] ago
[–]tigrente 24 points25 points26 points ago
[–]shippfaced 8 points9 points10 points ago
[–]justinasaurusrex 75 points76 points77 points ago
[–]ggggbabybabybaby 13 points14 points15 points ago
[–]ThirdBassist 6 points7 points8 points ago
[–]ABabyAteMyDingo 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]xblurr 103 points104 points105 points ago
[–]webbitor 48 points49 points50 points ago*
[–]noonelikesrejection[
] 13 points14 points15 points ago
[–]superiority 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]0157h7 7 points8 points9 points ago
[–]webbitor 6 points7 points8 points ago
[–]forehand 110 points111 points112 points ago*
[–]Aluminium_Illuminati 30 points31 points32 points ago
[–]Zadof 6 points7 points8 points ago
[–]xblurr 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]Alanna 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]shippfaced 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]swankyfive 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–]squigs 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]jurble 244 points245 points246 points ago
[–][deleted] 83 points84 points85 points ago
[–]SwiftyLeZar 25 points26 points27 points ago
[–]IPromiseImHuman 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–]outwrangle 14 points15 points16 points ago
[–]DeLoreanMotorCars 57 points58 points59 points ago
[–]jbhelms 40 points41 points42 points ago
[–]Agent-A 27 points28 points29 points ago
[–]outwrangle 7 points8 points9 points ago
[–]Ninja_Surgeon 7 points8 points9 points ago
[–]ThirdBassist 7 points8 points9 points ago
[–]dinnercoat 64 points65 points66 points ago
[–]JANETRON 5 points6 points7 points ago
[–]forevernomad 5 points6 points7 points ago
[–]crecon 568 points569 points570 points ago
[–]Souzetsu 259 points260 points261 points ago
[–]-Emerica- 85 points86 points87 points ago
[–]_this_guy 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]reflion 10 points11 points12 points ago
[–]doody 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]normallyerratic 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]SimulatedSun 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]Nicoscope 30 points31 points32 points ago
[–]lurkerturneduser 14 points15 points16 points ago
[–]jamar0303 17 points18 points19 points ago
[–]Yossome 11 points12 points13 points ago
[–]TheRentIsToDamnHigh 38 points39 points40 points ago
[–]GiantSquidd 60 points61 points62 points ago
[–]SpaceViking 25 points26 points27 points ago
[–]dooglies 18 points19 points20 points ago
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points ago
[–]dezmd 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points ago
[–]crecon 33 points34 points35 points ago*
[–]justaguess 15 points16 points17 points ago
[–]mentat 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–]redwing634 9 points10 points11 points ago
[–]nevinera 6 points7 points8 points ago
[–]Probably_immortal 35 points36 points37 points ago
[–]asininequestion 48 points49 points50 points ago
[–]WhatDidYouSayToMe 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–]ThirdBassist 6 points7 points8 points ago
[–]rz2000 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–][deleted] 17 points18 points19 points ago
[–]pdb01 2 points3 points4 points ago*
[–]BellsSC2 57 points58 points59 points ago
[–]Tiffehx3 22 points23 points24 points ago*
[–]lestratege 12 points13 points14 points ago
[–]wingspantt 8 points9 points10 points ago
[–]SkittlesUSA 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]gabe2011 3 points4 points5 points ago
[–]pdb01 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–]gabe2011 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–]TaargusTaargus 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]yellowstone10 9 points10 points11 points ago
[–]TheRentIsToDamnHigh 15 points16 points17 points ago
[–]Ptylerdactyl 9 points10 points11 points ago
[–]Ptylerdactyl 59 points60 points61 points ago
[–]ventomareiro 16 points17 points18 points ago
[–]turdoftomorrow 7 points8 points9 points ago
[–]CaptOblivious 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–]ryguy82 3 points4 points5 points ago*
[–]aoei43 15 points16 points17 points ago
[–]GSaiya 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]GoatBased 14 points15 points16 points ago
[–]phantomneko 11 points12 points13 points ago
[–]jmf1234 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]FSMacolyte 108 points109 points110 points ago
[–][deleted] 48 points49 points50 points ago
[–]FSMacolyte 4 points5 points6 points ago*
[–]aradil 169 points170 points171 points ago
[–]Quazifuji 37 points38 points39 points ago
[–]SaladProblems 9 points10 points11 points ago
[–]metatron5369 5 points6 points7 points ago
[–]Quazifuji 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]Deus_Imperator 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–]FSMacolyte 92 points93 points94 points ago
[–]tsondie21 159 points160 points161 points ago
[–]ooglag 30 points31 points32 points ago
[–]FSMacolyte 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]Nougat 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–][deleted] 27 points28 points29 points ago
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points ago
[–]KolHaKavod 22 points23 points24 points ago
[–]rollhomet 55 points56 points57 points ago
[–]ribosometronome 114 points115 points116 points ago
[–]rollhomet 40 points41 points42 points ago
[–][deleted] ago
[–]degustibus 18 points19 points20 points ago
[–][deleted] 23 points24 points25 points ago
[–]krazytaxi 10 points11 points12 points ago
[–]thcobbs 3 points4 points5 points ago
[–]krazytaxi 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]thcobbs 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]Alanna 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]stredarts 5 points6 points7 points ago
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points ago
[–]Mikey129 3 points4 points5 points ago
[–]Basye 11 points12 points13 points ago
[–]lestratege 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]PimpDawg 26 points27 points28 points ago
[–]lurkerturneduser 29 points30 points31 points ago
[–]AzMoo 8 points9 points10 points ago
[–]smors 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]The_Prince1513 5 points6 points7 points ago
[–]nixcamic 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]tetzy 10 points11 points12 points ago
[–]Fizxxy 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]joecook1987 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]CaptOblivious 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]dswander 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]bjmarte 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]Mooseheaded 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]smacksaw 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]EulerMcEinstein 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]anothernewday 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]jrm12 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]mca592 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]eugenetabisco 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]ChairYeoman 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]RogerDeanVenture 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]PersonEveryman 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]NomNomNomRawr 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]Celarcade 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]LSDemon 23 points24 points25 points ago
[–]yellowstone10 24 points25 points26 points ago
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]tvc_15 9 points10 points11 points ago
[–]skekze 12 points13 points14 points ago
[–]kyte13 8 points9 points10 points ago
[–]EvilHom3r 6 points7 points8 points ago
[–]webbitor 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]DexterNormal 9 points10 points11 points ago
[–]reggieband 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]phillipa1990 5 points6 points7 points ago
[–]H8rade 5 points6 points7 points ago
[–]ivanolo2010 7 points8 points9 points ago
[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points ago
[–]niggles 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]themontereyjack 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–]toastedtobacco 5 points6 points7 points ago
[–]fosoren 2 points3 points4 points ago*
[–]shenglong[
] 3 points4 points5 points ago
[–]omnivorous 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–]sethandtheswan 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–]LeoLy09 3 points4 points5 points ago
[–][deleted] ago*
[–][deleted] 24 points25 points26 points ago
[–]LaLaVonne 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–][deleted] 29 points30 points31 points ago
[–]fox_wesley 39 points40 points41 points ago
[–]Crystal_Cuckoo 16 points17 points18 points ago
[–]arkofkey 7 points8 points9 points ago
[–]marquella 12 points13 points14 points ago
[–]UTRocketman 7 points8 points9 points ago
[–]Elbows 57 points58 points59 points ago
[–]TheChosenOne570 15 points16 points17 points ago
[–]PleaseFixMyGrammar 31 points32 points33 points ago
[–]mollay 67 points68 points69 points ago
[–]PleaseFixMyGrammar 10 points11 points12 points ago
[–]FMERCURY 29 points30 points31 points ago
[–]muyoso 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]NoMoreNicksLeft 23 points24 points25 points ago