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top 200 commentsshow all 272

[–]UmberGryphon 442 points443 points ago

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Oh noes! The earth moved relative to the absolute reference frame! Oh wait, there is no absolute reference frame....

[–]cdigioia 104 points105 points ago

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That is so much more succinct and eloquent than what I was going to say. Good...good job with the words you made just now before. They were purdy.

[–]capnrefsmmat 37 points38 points ago

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Accelerating reference frames (such as orbits) are distinguishable and different. Only inertial reference frames (with no acceleration) are indistinguishable and would not have this problem.

[–]dicey 69 points70 points ago

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Orbits are not accelerating reference frames. The Earth is following an inertial straight line path in a curved space.

[–]Patrick_M_Bateman 16 points17 points ago

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I see what you did there.

[–]raytaybruce 39 points40 points ago

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I don't.

[–]Patrick_M_Bateman 70 points71 points ago

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There are two ways to look at circular motion - the traditional way is that the Earth is traveling in a straight line (constant velocity), but being accelerated towards the Sun, so it travels in an orbit. This is where the "no such thing as centrifugal force" pedants show up. When you're on a merry-go-round, you feel a force propelling you outwards. However, in a linear reference frame, that isn't a force at all - it's your body's velocity in a straight line; the actual force is being exerted on you by the merry-go-round inwards to keep you going in a circle.

So - you are under constant acceleration towards the center of the merry-go-round, and the Earth is under constant acceleration towards the Sun. This means that your reference frame is always accelerating.

One theory of space-time is that gravity curves space, and this creates the appearance of "force" that we think of as gravity. This is the old "marbles on a rubber sheet" theory - if you take a big sheet of rubber, and put heavy balls* on it at various places, they'll dimple the sheet. Now if you roll a marble along the sheet, it will roll towards the dimples. This is remarkable similar to what a path past gravity wells looks like.

So if the Sun is a bowling ball, pulling down the sheet of our Solar System, then the Earth is just rolling around the dimple like one of those "orbiting quarter" games. And if you use this as a reference frame, there's no acceleration at all.

* Obligatory

[–]lucasvb 3 points4 points ago

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I always disliked the weights on the rubber sheet example, as there's still a force in that physical model pushing the objects inwards (the horizontal component of the normal from the rubber sheet).

Isn't there something better than that?

[–]RobotRollCall 12 points13 points ago

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Yes, but not without invoking a lot of abstract differential geometry.

The essence of it is that in the Euclidean plane, lines which are parallel at one point are parallel everywhere. But the geometry of our universe is not Euclidean; it's more complex than that. In our universe, lines which are parallel at one point can converge at another point. They remain straight the whole time — which is to say, there's no infinitesimal deflection along the curve — but they cross anyway, because the underlying geometry of spacetime is curved.

But the bowling-ball-on-a-trampoline model, for all its shortcomings, does serve to illustrate the fact that straight lines can appear curved, which is one of the biggest obstacles you have to get past when teaching general relativity to people who have never heard of non-Euclidean geometry before.

[–]EncasedMeats 1 point2 points ago

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Hence so many Lovecraftian protagonists going mad...mad, I tell you!

[–]lackofbrain 2 points3 points ago

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Thankyou. I never understood where the whole "there's no such thing as centrifugal force" idea comes from. Now I do.

[–]RobotRollCall 11 points12 points ago

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Basically any force which can be made to vanish by choosing the right reference frame is called a "fictitious force," or sometimes a "pseudoforce."

But really, the distinction is a pretty abstract one. By choosing the right reference frame, the "force" of gravity vanishes, so if you consider gravity to be a "real force," then centrifugal force, Coriolis force, acceleration force and all the others are just as "real."

Life gets a lot simpler if you stop talking about forces entirely and just focus on accelerations.

[–]Birk 4 points5 points ago

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The Acceleration is strong with this one.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points ago

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Life gets a lot simpler if you stop talking about forces entirely and just focus on accelerations.

Love this sentence, gonna use it in my personal philosophy.

[–]BritainRitten 2 points3 points ago

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Your personal philosophy is pretty narrow...

My personal philosophy is the inverse square law!

[–]BarelyIllegal 0 points1 point ago

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Try explaining that to a police officer.

We were just having some accelerated sex! What's the big deal?

[–]Sealbhach 1 point2 points ago

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One *theory** of space-time is that gravity curves space, and this creates the appearance of "force" that we think of as gravity*.

I thought this had already been proved, with pictures of gravitational lensing and the experiments during solar eclipses?

[–]Aldazar 3 points4 points ago

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it is still called a theory. even gravity is a theory

In science a theory is basically our current understanding/explanation of how something works with the evidence we have to support it. it remains a theory no matter how muich evidence we gather. these theories will be changed or discarded once we find new evidence that contradicts or otherwise alters our understanding/evidence of the concept the theory discribes.

[–]ParanoydAndroid 1 point2 points ago

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the traditional way is that the Earth is traveling in a straight line (constant velocity), but being accelerated towards the Sun[.]

By definition, one cannot be accelerating and have constant velocity. I understand, and agree with, your post. But I think this part could be worded better.

[–]DoorFrame 2 points3 points ago

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There's no such thing as centrifugal force.

[–]codepoet 9 points10 points ago

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It's just a name for inertia in a special circumstance.

/runs for the door

[–]RobotRollCall 10 points11 points ago

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So is gravity.

[–]fullerenedream 1 point2 points ago

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That's how I think of it.

[–]lynn 9 points10 points ago

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Yes there is. The James Bond xkcd comic is correct: if you construct Newton's laws in a rotating frame, one of the terms is an outward force.

It cannot occur on its own (without rotation) but it is real.

[–]redfishvanish 1 point2 points ago

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link please?

[–]lynn 1 point2 points ago

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hal's got you covered...sorry, I was on my ipod and it would have been a pain in the ass to find it.

[–]halberdier25 2 points3 points ago

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[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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That's called a pseudo force and the distinction is that a real force changes the speed or velocity of an object. The mathematical construct below merely indicates there is an equal and opposite force outwards, but that force exists in parity with the true centripedal force. Remove inward force and the outward one suddenly loses interest and stops existing.

[–]TheCoelacanth 1 point2 points ago

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Gravity is also a pseudo force. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points ago*

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finally after years I understand this. so clear. newtonian physics makes sense.

Yes and still I remember the fact that the rubber sheet is purely visualisation there's nothing to say there isn't other things going on or that it's actually somewhat different. We're just visualizing that way because it's the simplest way of doing it.

The assumption is that linear reference frames are even what's truly going on

[–]shaggorama 15 points16 points ago

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this isn't newtonian physics. this is relativistic physics.

[–]L1ttl3J1m 2 points3 points ago

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I saw (Or think I remember seeing) "Science-for-Schools" type show with a real rubber sheet and real heavy balls (how could I resist?). I was illuminated.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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minds were blown that day

[–]p1mrx 3 points4 points ago

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If it's truly the case that an orbit is a straight line through curved space, then why does a faster-moving object follow a completely different path?

[–]RobotRollCall 12 points13 points ago

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An orbit isn't a straight line through curved space. It's a straight line through curved spacetime. You can't make meaningful sense out of the idea if you ignore the fact that space and time are two aspects of the same underlying geometry.

Which makes it basically impossible to visualize, unfortunately, but if the 20th century taught us anything, it's that our brains are not very good at visualizing the fundamental realities of the universe.

[–]ryegye24 1 point2 points ago

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But we can still measure an acceleration in the earth. We can measure a force being exerted on the earth. Curved space or not, the earth is not following an inertial straight line path.

[–]RobotRollCall 1 point2 points ago

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It actually is. What you're measuring on the Earth is the effect of the tidal force. If the Earth were a single, dimensionless point — this is purely for purposes of illustration, obviously — then there would be no measurable accelerations on the Earth as it moved in its orbit around the sun. But because the Earth has extent, there's a net quadrupole acceleration; at the points closest to and farthest from the sun, there's a tendency for matter to fall inward and outward, respectively. At the points ahead of and behind the Earth in its orbit, there's a tendency for matter to fall toward the Earth's surface.

The equivalence principle says that the outcome of a purely local experiment is independent on the location in spacetime where the experiment is conducted. One of the implications of the words "purely local" is that if your experimental apparatus is sufficiently large to detect the presence or absence of tidal force, it's not a local experiment any more, and equivalence no longer holds.

[–]chakalakasp 1 point2 points ago

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What I love about reddit is that this is only 3 comments down from the top post.

[–]captainhaddock 2 points3 points ago

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According to relativity, gravity is the same as acceleration. Therefore, following a straight line through space curved by gravity counts as acceleration.

[–]RobotRollCall 6 points7 points ago

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Actually you have that exactly the wrong way 'round. Freely falling under the influence of gravitation is the opposite of acceleration. The falling body experiences no acceleration; the observer who's stationary with respect to the source of gravitation — you, standing on the ground, for example — is the one who experiences acceleration.

[–]captainhaddock 0 points1 point ago

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Do I? Because both gravity and acceleration cause the same relativistic effects — time dilation, increased mass, etc.

[–]RobotRollCall 0 points1 point ago

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Standing still relative to a source of gravitation is equivalent to acceleration. Freely falling — or as you phrased it, "following a straight like through space curved by gravity" is not acceleration. It's the opposite of acceleration; it's inertial motion.

And for the record, mass never increases. The whole "relativistic mass" thing was a bad idea from the start, and is not taught any more because it isn't physically meaningful.

[–]capnrefsmmat 0 points1 point ago

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(just thought of this)

Orbits are elliptical. Wouldn't the inertial straight line path be a circle? Hence, orbits are indeed accelerating reference frames.

[–]dicey 0 points1 point ago

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Orbits are elliptical. Wouldn't the inertial straight line path be a circle? Hence, orbits are indeed accelerating reference frames.

Nope. Circular, elliptical, parabolic, and hyperbolic orbits are all inertial straight line paths. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the 3D projection of the orbit isn't important: the line is straight in a 4D curved spacetime.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points ago*

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yeah you've got the galaxy and then the universe and then FUCK!

Then where would you end up if you went back in time? (or perhaps this type of time machine is impossible) 0_o

[–]RobotRollCall 2 points3 points ago

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All types of time machines are impossible, for a wide variety of reasons. Time-translation invariance (and the consequent conservation of energy) is high up on the list. It serves as a sort of trump card, meaning that any method you could imagine for going back in time, whether it's plausible given the known laws of physics or not, cannot be possible.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points ago

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All types of time machines are impossible

Not at all. I could write "Time Machine" on a cardboard box. It would travel through time.

In a more traditional sense of the word "Time Machine", any object moving relative to another experiences time dilation. Get on a (theoretical) spaceship traveling at .99c for 5 minutes, and you will have traveled 35 minutes into earth's future.

Edit: Now that I'm rereading your comment, it's pretty clear that you meant backwards time machines are impossible. And it's also clear that you know more about this than I do. So I'm just going to shut up.

[–]RobotRollCall 7 points8 points ago

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I meant time machines in the sense of time travel as it's commonly portrayed in fiction, yeah.

And please don't shut up. I'm nobody special. I'm glad you pointed out that I was a bit ambiguous in my statements.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points ago

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Maybe you know this. Wouldn't a transversable wormhole allow you to travel back in time?

  1. Find/create wormhole

  2. Accelerate End A of it to near light speed for a two years. Time dilation would mean that this end travels forward, let's say, two months in time while End B travels forward two years

  3. Enter End B, exiting End A. Welcome to 22 months ago!

Granted, the earliest this could take you back is the day you started accelerating the wormholes relative to one another. So no getting Jesus' autograph. But you could make a killing in the stock market.

  1. Welcome to 1 year, 10 months ago!

[–]RobotRollCall 7 points8 points ago

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This paper addresses your question directly. Short answer: No. Traversable wormholes are not possible for a wide variety of reasons, ranging from the non-existence of imaginary mass to conservation of Noether charge.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points ago

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Damn. Well there goes my retirement plan.

[–]StupidLorbie 1 point2 points ago

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And that paper has a rebuttal posted at the bottom. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong.

[–]RobotRollCall 4 points5 points ago

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Yes, and you should read the rebuttal. Because the abstract says, in its entirety,

In a recent paper on wormholes (gr-qc/0503097), the author of that paper demon- strated that he didn’t know what he was talking about. In this paper I correct the author’s naive erroneous misconceptions.

In case you don't get the joke, both papers have the same author. They were published to illustrate the inherent contradictions, and thus the logical impossibility, of wormhole theory.

[–]StupidLorbie 0 points1 point ago

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I bow to your wisdom - I noticed the flippant summary, but assumed this was some kind of "in" joke at Stanford. Obviously it is, and obviously I missed it :)

[–]quack 1 point2 points ago

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I'd just like to point out at this juncture that modern physics consists, in its entirety, of deriving an internally consistent set of axioms which are usefully predictive of observable situations. Earlier physicists have had other such sets of axioms (Newton comes to mind) which were predictive of the data available to them. Such older axiom sets are still usefully predictive for sufficiently crude data collection methods, but newer data required different axioms to encompass both the older and newer data.

Our current axiomatic set, like older such sets, is in no way a set of laws or rules for the universe. The universe behaves as it likes, and we attempt to make sense of it. We've acquired a lot of data lately regarding the behaviour of the parts of the universe readily observable from our little ball of rock, water, and nitrogen, but we have by no means observed all possible data in all places in the universe. If the history of physics teaches us anything at all, it ought to teach us that others after us, with different tools at their disposal, will someday collect data inconsistent with our current axiomatic set, and will at that time make revisions to or replacements of our current set of axioms.

We cannot exclude the possibility that such later observers may observe time travel, just as prudent scientists in Newton's time ought not to have excluded the possibility that light travels at the same speed in vacuum regardless of the apparent direction of travel of the observer, or that the locations of atomic particles in spacetime are essentially probabilistic. Such data would have been shocking to them, and indeed were shocking when first observed, just as observations useful time travel would be shocking to us today. Again, the universe does as it pleases. For us to presume that the universe must abide by our axioms as though they were laws of matter is arrogant in the extreme; our axioms are almost certainly wrong, though we know not how.

About the strongest statement we can make is that useful time travel is wildly inconsistent with every known way of observing and manipulating our physical universe. If useful time travel is possible, it will be based on axioms not yet derived from data not yet collected from experiments not yet performed using equipment and approaches not yet conceived.

[–]RobotRollCall 0 points1 point ago

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I find this attitude — and it's a depressingly common one — to be infuriating. For all of how you dressed it up in fancy language, it basically boils down to "Nobody knows anything, and science is all guesswork that could be contradicted at any time."

This is rubbish. Science is the tool we use to learn about the universe. It works. We know more today than we did yesterday, and we'll know more Monday than we knew today. To dismiss all that as just speculation and assumptions is insulting, not to mention actually, literally wrong.

[–]quack 1 point2 points ago

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With all due respect, I don't see how you got from

useful time travel is wildly inconsistent with every known way of observing and manipulating our physical universe.

to

Nobody knows anything, and science is all guesswork that could be contradicted at any time.

While I appreciate that there are a lot of Intelligent Design idiots making the "science is all guesswork" claims, their willful ignorance doesn't make it inherently wrong to acknowledge that we don't know everything. Why the hostility?

Also,

Science is the tool we use to learn about the universe. It works.

Yes, because science is the method. The method wasn't attacked; its repeated application was cited as the reason the known laws have been refined over time, and continue to be refined.

[–]M0b1u5 2 points3 points ago

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Oh Noes! The idiot who invented the time machine somehow forgot that Time IS Space, and vice versa. If your machine can move you in one of these, it can also move you in the other.

Protip: a time machine is also a teleporter, with the time differential set to "zero".

I guess what this shows is that cartoonists are far more stupid than scientists.

[–]treacys111 1 point2 points ago

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Not to mention the solar system is constantly moving within the Milky Way galaxy, and the Milky Way is constantly moving as well.

[–]oldbean 1 point2 points ago

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is there still a spoon?

[–]khayber 5 points6 points ago

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the spoon is now a spork

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points ago

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then the cow must jump over Bjork, if the dish is going to run away with the spork.

[–]radonchong 4 points5 points ago

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I'm on a horse.

[–]Acidictadpole 1 point2 points ago

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The spork is now diamonds!

[–]mostlyferal 2 points3 points ago

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The sun's reference frame, looks like.

Time machine must be solar powered.

[–]monkeyme 1 point2 points ago

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That doesn't in any way invalidate the point the comic is making. In fact that makes it even more salient.

[–]AmbroseB 4 points5 points ago

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Actually, it does invalidate the comic's point. Assuming the point it was trying to make was that the machine failed to take the motion of the earth into consideration and therefore failed, then you have to wonder why it ignored one motion whilst taking into consideration others? After all, the sun is also moving, as is the galaxy, and yet the man's relative position to the sun did not change.

[–]LurkersGonnaLurk 0 points1 point ago

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What are we to believe, that this is some sort of a magic time machine or something?

[–]Tude 0 points1 point ago

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You can set up a static coordinate system using a light pulse.

[–]rrcjab 0 points1 point ago

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Thank you! Now I realize that I must make the time machine ITSELF the absolutely reference frame. I'll be right back!

EDIT: didn't work.

[–]jfjjfjff 0 points1 point ago

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"my nerdiness gets in the way of my sense of humor...."

[–]fishpen0 18 points19 points ago

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Because someone who managed to figure out time travel wouldn't have thought of that.

[–]prosayik 15 points16 points ago

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That's why you need boxes with a pre-existing location in space like Primer. Just don't off your past selves and con your friends.

[–]LupeFiascoStoleMyHat 8 points9 points ago

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I wish I fully appreciated Primer.

Watched it twice, still brainache.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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I really started to enjoy it with the fourth viewing (seriously). Knowing the major plot already allows you to focus on the time travel

[–]doctorsound 5 points6 points ago

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First thing that came to mind was Primer. As confusing as the movie was, their time travel theory is much more sound than any others.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago*

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One thing I never got about that movie: why didn't Aaron(timeline 4) come back to timeline 3 and destroy the box so Abe(timeline 8) couldn't go back in time to timeline 5 and fold the box into timeline 6?

[–]giveitago 32 points33 points ago

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Also something about stealing hits from the website of whoever created this.

[–]Aksumka 4 points5 points ago

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Too bad the author removed all of his content a while back. Old DA.

[–]damn_it_so_much 1 point2 points ago

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I did try to find the source, but I failed. The illegible watermark in the top left corner is actually for a chive-style rehosting site, and all the tineye results are from blogs reposting it from other blogs. Sigh...

[–]EepyDee 14 points15 points ago

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The barman says "sorry, we don't serve time travellers here."

A time traveller walks into a bar.

[–]HTxxD 55 points56 points ago

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That's if you only travel in the dimension of time, without changing the positions on other axes. More likely, the time travelling devices will involve near-light-speed motions anyway.

[–]SomeKindOfOctopus 50 points51 points ago

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Hence, the TARDIS

[–]inkathebadger 22 points23 points ago

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Do you /r/doctorwho?

[–]SomeKindOfOctopus 8 points9 points ago

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Well, I do now.

[–]RarneyBubble 1 point2 points ago

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Excuse me kind species of water, but do you mind me asking specifically what kind of octopus are you?

[–]SomeKindOfOctopus 3 points4 points ago

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The kind that makes your insides, outsides.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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The best kind.

[–]Patrick_M_Bateman 5 points6 points ago

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It's bigger on the inside...

[–]radiantwave 7 points8 points ago

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That's what they all say...

[–]khayber 2 points3 points ago

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That sounds painful...

[–]ahmes 2 points3 points ago

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Don't worry, it's dimensionally transcendental!

[–]the_tardis 2 points3 points ago

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Can I get a vworp vworp?

[–]ccampo 14 points15 points ago

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This is wrong. The real solution is UmberGryphon's. If you reverse in time in one reference frame, then you stay in that frame. There is no absolute frame. It's called Newton's first law, and more precisely, the first postulate of special relativity.

[–]krangksh 4 points5 points ago

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Can you explain this further? Because when I read umbergryphons comment, I thought what it meant was that you could never correct for this and time travel to the right location, because there is no "absolute reference frame" that we know of, that is to say that you can calculate for the movement of the Earth, but then you also have to calculate for the movement of the sun around the galaxy, the movement of the galaxy away from the universal point of origin, and possibly a larger gravitational force that pulls on our galaxy cluster that we don't understand, etc so you would never be able to know exactly where you should be. But it seems like you are saying the opposite essentially, which being that I am no scientist, is givin' my old mind grapes a little what-for!

edit: admiralteal seems to have my exact sentiment, and now they are starting to seem like they somehow blend? So lost...

[–]ccampo 7 points8 points ago

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All inertial reference frames (that is, non-accelerating frames; they can be moving at some constant velocity) are indistinguishable. The laws of physics in these frames are all the same. Results of physics experiments do not change depending on your point of reference. This was first assumed by Newton (although he did believe in an absolute frame) and solidified by Einstein. There is no "correct" or absolute reference frame in the universe, where everything else moves relative to it.

If you are on Earth, everything else is moving relative to you! In a sense, the entire universe is moving around Earth. However, to the rest of the universe, Earth is moving. So who is right? Both views are. It is in this sense that nothing is absolute.

To be totally rigorous however, We are not in a "truly" inertial frame, because we are accelerating (circular motion around the sun, around the galactic center, our galaxy around it's group's center of mass, etc.). This acceleration is very minimal however, and our reference frames are, for all intents and purposes, inertial.

For more information, just look up relativity. Start with Galilean relativity (Newton's first law) and then go to Special Relativity. If you are interested in tensor analysis, learn that and go to general relativity.

Physicist here, BTW.

[–]RobotRollCall 2 points3 points ago

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We are not in a "truly" inertial frame, because we are accelerating (circular motion around the sun, around the galactic center, our galaxy around it's group's center of mass, etc.).

You're right but for the wrong reason. The motion of the Earth through spacetime is inertial; the appearance of a curved trajectory is an artifact of the geometry of spacetime. But we, sitting here are in an accelerated reference frame, by virtue of the fact that we are stationary with respect to a source of gravitation.

[–]ccampo 0 points1 point ago

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I was referring to centripetal acceleration, v2/r. The Earth spins, so we're accelerating toward's it's center. It also orbits, so are accelerating inwards towards the Sun, which is accelerating inwards towards the galactic center, which is accelerating towards something else, etc.. Coriolis effect anybody?

[–]RobotRollCall 0 points1 point ago

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Yes, but as a physicist you must necessarily be aware that centripetal acceleration vanishes when you boost to an inertial local reference frame.

[–]ccampo 0 points1 point ago

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Yea. Free-falling.

[–]RobotRollCall 2 points3 points ago

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Right. So orbital motion around the sun, as the sun orbits the galactic centre, as our galactic centre orbits the barycentre of the local group and so on, is inertial motion.

[–]ccampo 0 points1 point ago

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This is pedantic. The whole point behind General Relativity was that ALL frames of reference are equally valid (some are just more difficult to work in), so there is really no need in discussing inertia when including GR. I was just trying to establish the point that Earth is only locally inertial.

[–]prelyt 1 point2 points ago

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i learned a lot from reading that.

[–]gamer_4_life 1 point2 points ago

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So, how do you differentiate between time frames? Is each frame a separate existence, its own universe (they certainly can't be static)? If you can only go forward in time and maintain your current 'internal reference frame', then how is that different from simply accelerating towards the speed of light? Whence comes this so-called 'time travel'?

I've tried to imagine this process and all I can see happening is that, as you approach the speed of light, it becomes harder and harder for anything to move. If every part of your body was going at that speed, it would 'seem' to stop in time, because you can't really move in any direction without an enormous (near infinite if not infinite) amount of energy. The normal processes that happen in your body, right down to the subatomic level, would be 'suspended' (and you might even become compressed). You would simply move through the universe at near light speed until you were able to stop. No time travel involved.

The concept of time as a uni-directional dimension never made much sense to me. Everything in normal space can move freely in all 3 dimensions with no restriction. I mean, why would you even call time a 'dimension' at all? Personally, I think time is nothing more than a unit of measure and doesn't exist as a dimension.

[–]RobotRollCall 6 points7 points ago

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So, how do you differentiate between time frames?

Think about it objectively for a moment. How would you compare differently moving clocks? You could transmit some kind of radio signal from one clock to the other, but in that case there's a symmetry: an observer at A always sees the clock at A ticking faster than the clock at B, but the observer at B always sees the clock at B ticking faster than the clock at A. In special relativity, the local clock is always the fastest clock.

This might seem paradoxical, but it works just fine, because the only way to actually directly compare the clocks is to put them in the same room and look at them, which means one of them must be accelerated into the reference frame of the other, and it's that acceleration that breaks the symmetry of special relativity.

Whence comes this so-called 'time travel'?

Nowhere. There's no theory of time travel that doesn't contradict one or more of the fundamental truths of our universe.

I've tried to imagine this process and all I can see happening is that, as you approach the speed of light, it becomes harder and harder for anything to move.

Not at all. If you were accelerating at a constant rate in a small spaceship with no windows, you wouldn't be able to tell in any way whether you were moving at one mile an hour or six hundred million, relative to some arbitrarily chosen, notionally stationary point. (You also wouldn't be able to tell that you're not just standing in a windowless room on the surface of the Earth.)

If every part of your body was going at that speed, it would 'seem' to stop in time

On in the reference frame of an observer who's notionally at rest. (Or, conversely, you're at rest and this other observer is rocketing past you at an absurd speed. It's the same thing.)

because you can't really move in any direction without an enormous (near infinite if not infinite) amount of energy

Few things confuse new students of relativity more than the notion of "relativistic mass." That's why it's not taught any more. The idea is not a physically meaningful one, and it violates the equivalence principle to boot. In your own reference frame, you observe yourself having no more momentum than you would under any other conditions.

The normal processes that happen in your body, right down to the subatomic level, would be 'suspended' (and you might even become compressed).

Again, only from the point of view of a differently moving observer.

You would simply move through the universe at near light speed until you were able to stop.

Yes, but all distance intervals parallel to your direction of motion would be contracted by virtue of your velocity relative to the things you're measuring. That's how it's possible for a fast-moving thing to get from some point A to some point B in less proper time — that is, the time as measured by a moving clock — than you would assume by just multiplying the speed of light by the stationary distance. In the reference frame of a notionally stationary observer, time for the moving observer is dilated. In the reference frame of the moving observer, time works as always, but the distance from A to B is contracted.

The concept of time as a uni-directional dimension never made much sense to me.

That's because time is fundamentally different from space. There are a lot of different technical ways to explain this, but the simplest is to point out that the metric of four-Euclidean space — what spacetime would be like if time were just like space — has the diagonal terms +1, +1, +1, +1, while the metric of Minkowski spacetime is -1, +1, +1, +1. The time dimension is different from the space dimensions.

why would you even call time a 'dimension' at all?

Because you need four coordinates to specify a point in spacetime, and the dimensionality of a manifold is equal to the number of coordinates you need to specify a point on it.

Personally, I think time is nothing more than a unit of measure and doesn't exist as a dimension.

It's absolutely fine for you to think that. It won't have any negative effect on you or your life if you hold that opinion. As long as you understand that you're not actually, technically correct.

[–]efg13 2 points3 points ago

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The general consensus is that time is not accurately thought of as a fourth dimension. That model of thought is considered old-fashioned and incorrect.

[–]RobotRollCall 4 points5 points ago

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That's absolutely incorrect. Are you basing that on Weinberg's 1972 textbook? Because he was in error when he wrote that.

[–]efg13 1 point2 points ago

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I'm basing it off of the assumptions of people that grew up with that video that shows 10 dimensions, and think of just adding time as a fourth dimension in cartesian space. And off of a discussion somewhere else on reddit that I can't find atm.

To clarify my statement, it's quite correct to think of time as a dimension in a Minkowski coordinate system. But most people are not familiar with this I think. RobotRollCall, am I correct here? Could you expand? "Yay!" for learning.

[–]RobotRollCall 2 points3 points ago

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Ahhhhh yes. Bryanton. One of the most notorious peddlers of pseudo-scientific rubbish of the past decade. His book (which the video was made to promote) is infamous for getting absolutely everything completely, utterly wrong. It's so wrong it makes one wonder whether the author — who is not a scientist or even a philosopher, but rather a composer of music — was deliberately screwing with people.

Time is absolutely a dimension. All the mathematics of physics — not even modern physics, but even simple classical mechanics — requires that this be the case. Since you need four numbers to uniquely identify a point in our universe, our universe is definitely four-dimensional.

[–]efg13 1 point2 points ago

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I agree completely. Well put.

[–]fullerenedream 0 points1 point ago

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Cool. I did not know that. Wait... how do you define 'dimension' in this context?

[–]efg13 0 points1 point ago

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Time can be a dimension in a Minkowski coordinate system, not in a Cartesian one. We are used to Cartesian coordinates because we like the linearity of Galilean transformations. In order to study relativity, we need to use Lorentz transformations, and thus Minkowski supplies us with a new system.

[–]bjs3171 1 point2 points ago

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And this is why I love this site.

[–]wnoise 0 points1 point ago*

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This was first assumed by Newton

Galileo.

EDIT: From Wikipedia:

Galileo put forward the basic principle of relativity, that the laws of physics are the same in any system that is moving at a constant speed in a straight line, regardless of its particular speed or direction. Hence, there is no absolute motion or absolute rest. This principle provided the basic framework for Newton's laws of motion and is central to Einstein's special theory of relativity.

[–]killerstorm 0 points1 point ago

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Each particle has its own trajectory in spacetime. As you probably know, things around you do not fly away even though earth, sun and galaxy moves. Why is that? Because gravitation affects everything in same way and if two particles participating in gravitational interaction float nearby they will continue to do so.

If you consider time travel to follow certain trajectory rather than an instantaneous jump from one point to another it is easy to see how keep it local -- this trajectory should be similar to trajectory of a particle which interacts gravitationally. That is, just taking into account gravity field would be enough.

Or from another perspective we can consider gravitation a feature of spacetime itself, and so most natural trajectory through spacetime will naturally stick to masses nearby.

This will only help to be somewhere near Earth, but not always on its surface. So I think time travel needs an accurate timing to avoid materialization inside the Earth core.

[–]krangksh 0 points1 point ago

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Well I suppose I thought of time travel as a sort of "jump" to a different time, like teleporting through spacetime. That seems to me a little bit more feasible than something else, which I presume would involve somehow reversing the mechanics of time itself? So if that was the case, wouldn't you be teleporting to a different time and space, rather than travelling through it? That sentence sounds so ridiculous its hard to leave it there, but lets play the pretend game.

On another note, assuming you travel through spacetime and that keeps you near the Earth, wouldn't accurate timing still be very incalculable? My first thought was "only travel to the same day of the year so the Earth is in the same position around the sun", but that still fails to account for the movement of the sun and the galaxy and so forth. How could the timing be sufficiently accurate to prevent a catastrophic disaster?

[–]killerstorm 0 points1 point ago

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There is an interesting video of Neil deGrasse Tyson answering a question about colliding black holes: it turns out that time travel might be possible in that circumstances. I guess that is as scientifically plausible time travel theory as it gets.

wouldn't accurate timing still be very incalculable?

No, I think it only needs to account for gravitation of Earth and moon and it is not that hard.

Consider Earth satellites -- they travel on their own around the Earth, with pretty stable orbits. You don't need to take into account movement of the sun and the galaxy when calculating trajectories of satellites. They need corrections from time to time because of air friction, but not because of unknown gravitational forces.

So if you want to be sure with your time travel, do it on a space station which orbits Earth -- there are less chances for catastrophe in this case :)

[–]admiralteal 37 points38 points ago

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It's worse than that. Our solar system is moving blazingly fast through our galaxy, our galaxy is spinning as part of a local cluster in a unit spinning around a super-cluster in constantly more vast and fast-moving structures that make up our turbulent universe. Were there such thing as stationary reference point, the speed the earth is moving at right now would probably confound the laws of physics as we know them. Fortunately, there isn't so it doesn't!

But moving freely through time would presumptively already entail the tech to move freely through space, so no big deal either way.

[–]DocDerry 8 points9 points ago

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No kidding. The guy made a time machine that didn't take in the fact that everything in the universe is moving. Didn't he watch the new star trek?

Maybe he should have tested it on the admiral's prize hound first.

[–]yul_brynner 3 points4 points ago

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Seriously, all time travelers test their shit first on dogs

It should be a rule or something.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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also, metric expansion.

[–]RobotRollCall 1 point2 points ago

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There isn't actually any peculiar motion associated with metric expansion. All distance intervals between fixed points vary with time, but there's no meaningful way to convert that fact into a concept of movement.

[–]RobotRollCall 1 point2 points ago

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Not "blazingly fast." Our total peculiar motion — our motion around the sun, the sun's motion through the galaxy, the galaxy's motion through space, all summed up — is only about 375 miles a second. A lot by terrestrial standards, to be sure, but it's so small in cosmological terms that it literally rounds down to zero.

[–]quack 0 points1 point ago

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Our total peculiar motion ... is only about 375 miles a second.

How does one properly state what that speed is relative to?

[–]RobotRollCall 2 points3 points ago

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It's relative to an observer who would perceive the cosmic microwave background as being isotropic. This is called the cosmological reference frame, and it's the most useful reference frame to use when talking about the universe. For example, all that stuff you hear in the popular press about the age of the universe being more and more precisely determined? That age refers to the elapsed time that would be measured by a clock in the cosmological reference frame from the first instant of the Big Bang to the present.

We, here on Earth, do not see the cosmic microwave background as being perfectly isotropic. There's a slight dipole to it, telling us that relative to the microwave background we're moving at a net speed of around 375 miles a second toward a point in the constellation Leo. That's the sum of all the different peculiar motions of our planet, our sun, our galaxy and so on.

[–]EveryoneLovesReposts[!] 8 points9 points ago

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I feel like I'm traveling backwards in time each time this comic hits the front page.

[–]wrathofg0d 1 point2 points ago

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the vast majority of image content on reddit is a repost to someone

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points ago

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I'm pretty sure all time travel is actually space-time travel.

[–]dafones 8 points9 points ago

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Time travel is more properly thought of as teleportation through space time.

[–]iorgfeflkd 12 points13 points ago

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Here's the thing. Time travel depends on magic to work. The same magic can be used to to place the traveler at the right spot.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]donwilson 6 points7 points ago

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You're telling em that we figured out time travel, but forget to plug in the variable in earth orbital positioning? Yea, okay comic, like I'll believe THAT.

[–]jared555 1 point2 points ago

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Miscalculation?

[–]cyber_pacifist 2 points3 points ago

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Also you can't travel back in time because that would break the law of relativity where information can't travel faster than the speed of light.

[–]p1mrx 5 points6 points ago

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It's not really a law, it's just an observation that hasn't been falsified. The universe may well have an exploit or administrator mode that allows you to break our current laws.

[–]RobotRollCall 1 point2 points ago

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It's actually not an observation. It's a logical consequence of the fact that the speed of light is identical in all reference frames.

[–]AmbroseB 0 points1 point ago

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How could you observe that information can't travel faster than light?

[–]yul_brynner 0 points1 point ago

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Newtonian law, replaced by Einstein's laws, replaced by p1mrx's laws.

[–]fullerenedream 2 points3 points ago

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Newton's laws weren't replaced. Relativity reduces to Newtonian mechanics at non-relativistic speeds.

[–]Spartanfred104 2 points3 points ago

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Hey Must have not been using Crystals

[–]squigs 2 points3 points ago

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Since this was posted, I've travelled into the future by 3 hours. In that time, the earth has moved 200000 miles.

Why am I not in the middle of space?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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Because you are moving with the earth at the same rate.

[–]squigs 1 point2 points ago*

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That's what I'm getting at. We have no idea how a time machine might work, but it sees reasonable that it would travel through time rather than teleporting from one point in time to the next. So it would follow the earth round as well. The problem being either being flung off because of inertia or being crushed by gravity depending on how gravity is affected by travel through time.

[–]Gloria815 2 points3 points ago

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Wibbly-wobbly, timey-whimy...stuff.

[–]Hellzapoppin 2 points3 points ago

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I don't see why this would happen. But I like H.G. Wells notion of time travel.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago*

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The earth orbits around the sun at a rate of one orbit/year. Traveling backwards or forwards in time without some method of also moving in 3 dimensions would likely leave you stranded in the middle of space because, unless you travel in increments of exactly one year forward or back (e.g Feb. 2nd, 2011 to Feb. 2nd, 1612, or June 4th 2011 to June 4th, 2111), the earth will be in a different part of its orbit when you arrive.

[–]tommym 2 points3 points ago

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and since the solar system is moving around the galaxy, even after 1 exact year, i don't think you'd be at the same point in space.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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That too.

Basically, if your Time machine only moves though time, and not space, you'll be lucky if you're still in the orbit of Pluto when you arrive.

[–]Hellzapoppin 1 point2 points ago

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I understand all that but it makes assumptions about time travel which aren't necessarily true. For example, why wouldn't standing on the ground during travel count as 'moving in the 3rd dimension'? H.G. Wells concept is that you must move through time, you are not simply teleported from a to b.

In fact I just had a fun thought: Maybe using this method you would be thrown into space due to the increased spin of the earth x-D

[–]tommym 2 points3 points ago

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Since time is just one dimension, along with X,Y, and Z space, wouldn't a machine that could move objects thru time, also include the mechanism for synching with the start-location coordinates for X Y and Z? I'm thinking 4D GoogleMapz, with a start and an end location....but thanks for reminding any would-be T.M inventors who may have overlooked it. - And true - there are plenty of moving machines (like cars, fer xample) that only operate on an object in a subset of all dimensions (2, e.g...) So I'm wrong.

[–]TheLastGunslinger 2 points3 points ago

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Get a TARDIS. Problems solved.

[–]mrdizzy 2 points3 points ago

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CAN'T UNTHINK

Time travel fiction forever ruined. Thanks a lot.

[–]ronsta 2 points3 points ago

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Anyone who designs a time machine that doesn't take into account the Earth's orbit is a complete moron. /troll

[–]Undermined 5 points6 points ago

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Is it that time of the month already? I thought I had just seen this one.

[–]hot_pastrami 1 point2 points ago

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This assumes that the effects of gravity are nullified when moving through the 4th dimension.

[–]omgpro 1 point2 points ago

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I thought his cheeks were eyeglasses.

[–]cmbezln 1 point2 points ago

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the only problem i have with this is the idea that there is some absolute position in the universe. The solar system isn't the only thing that's "moving", the entire universe is and we dont even know if that's all that is moving, expanding, etc.

[–]makotech222 1 point2 points ago

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No, the problem is conservation of matter. How can the atoms that make up your body be in two places at the same time? impossible... unless you travel to a parallel universe...

[–]RobotRollCall 2 points3 points ago

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Conservation of energy, more properly; matter is not a conserved quantity except in the most trivial of closed systems. But yes, apart from a terminology nitpick you're absolutely correct.

[–]makotech222 1 point2 points ago

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oopsie forgot my relativity :D

[–]Monrreal73 1 point2 points ago

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And I just watched Primer.

[–]cessandra 1 point2 points ago

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Does this explain why the Doctor never ends up where he meant to be? :-P

[–]philodendron 1 point2 points ago

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What are you like a time lord troll or something man.

[–]drstreetmentioner 1 point2 points ago

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...is quite simply one of grammar.

[–]Gorgoleon 1 point2 points ago

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We've figured out how to travel through time, but not calculate orbits! Oh no!

[–]bork99 1 point2 points ago

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I think they solved this problem because they traveled back in time to post this to reddit a few months ago.

[–]bjs3171 1 point2 points ago

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Somehow I knew exactly what this comic would be.

[–]bjs3171 1 point2 points ago

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Atleast you didn't end up in a star.

[–]Xizer 1 point2 points ago

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Space-time machine.

Problem solved.

[–]eMigo 1 point2 points ago

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It's far easier to just transfer conscious control of bodies, using either yourself or someone else in the future as a shell.

[–]Uakaris 1 point2 points ago

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What? There wasn't enough road there to get up to 88?

[–]lolnameless 1 point2 points ago

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old pic is old

[–]drakeonaplane 1 point2 points ago

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I think if we can figure out time travel, we can figure out how to avoid this problem.

[–]salgat 1 point2 points ago

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When you are moving near the speed of light this really is already an established fact.

[–]scottcmu 1 point2 points ago

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Next time link to the original source to give credit where credit is due.

[–]monoglot 1 point2 points ago

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It's okay. Penny is my constant.

[–]L15t3r0f5m3g 1 point2 points ago

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Easy. Localize time.

[–]02HA 0 points1 point ago

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[–]Interceptor 2 points3 points ago

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Yay -remember when Strontium Dog used to do this to the bad guys in 2000AD? Man I'm a dork for knowing that shit... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strontium_Dog#Weapons.2Fequipment_and_mutant_abilities

[–]Jewboi 2 points3 points ago

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This is the first thing I thought of as well. But I have never even read 2000 AD - I just read about it on wikipedia. Now who's the bigger dork?

[–]Interceptor 2 points3 points ago

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A CHALLENGER APPEARS!

[–]puredoubt 1 point2 points ago

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AGAIN with this? diggers, go home.

[–]Butthurt_Police 0 points1 point ago

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Alright you're coming with me.

[–]casiopt10 2 points3 points ago

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Actually the Earth orbits the Sun in a counter-clockwise motion.

[–]JackOneill 14 points15 points ago

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Depends from where you're looking.

[–]Trekky0623 3 points4 points ago

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Or if he's travelling forward or backward in time.

[–]ItzInMyNature 2 points3 points ago

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Haha, I can't believe I have never noticed this. It is to simple, now I feel stupid.

[–]MrShow 0 points1 point ago

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Duh. Everyone knows it's "Beep. Bop. Boop."

[–]hadez2000 0 points1 point ago

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Wasn't this on the front page less than 3 months ago?

[–]Todamont 0 points1 point ago

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Thats why you have to go 88 mph. Duh.

[–]washer 0 points1 point ago

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You can just get around this by posting a time-beacon at your point of departure and sync it up with your time travel device. Duh.

[–]gthing 0 points1 point ago

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Just as you can travel along the first dimension without traveling along the second and third, you can travel along the fourth dimension with or without traveling along the first three.

[–]ooo_shiny 0 points1 point ago

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The problem with time travel is having to watch the same thing be posted a million times?

[–]chorder 0 points1 point ago

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"Seven Days" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Days_(TV_series) addressed that in the show, making the pilot of the time machine "ride the needles" to go the right time and place. I think they even had the guy end up in orbit after his first trip.

[–]Lochlan 0 points1 point ago

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FYI, there's an /r/timetravel!

[–]porplemontage 0 points1 point ago

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Also, the sun rotates around the center of the galaxy. And the galaxy is moving as well.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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The problem with that comic: satellites orbit Earth. They move with the planet around the sun, not stay behind.

[–]Chyndonax 0 points1 point ago

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Since the time machine didn't move in time the solution is easy. You just appear in spot relative to where the time machine is at in your target time. You can't go further back than when the machine first turned on but there's more than one reason for that.