use the following search parameters to narrow your results:
e.g.reddit:pics site:imgur.com dog
reddit:pics site:imgur.com dog
see the search faq for details.
advanced search: by author, community...
Help victims of the Aurora shootings
Help victims of the Sikh shootings
Welcome to r/atheism, the web's largest atheist forum. All topics related to atheism, agnosticism and secular living are welcome here. Please read our FAQ.
Recommended reading and viewing
Thank you notes
Related Subreddits <--the big list
Chat: #reddit-atheism on irc.freenode.net
Watch: #/r/atheism on reddit.tv
Read The FAQ
Submit Rage Comic
Submit Facebook Chat
Submit Meme
Submit Something Else
reddit is a source for what's new and popular online. vote on links that you like or dislike and help decide what's popular, or submit your own! learn more ›
Guess which one the Bible's OK with? [pic] (i.imgur.com)
submitted 2 years ago by Ash09
[–]Nerdlinger 258 points259 points260 points 2 years ago
Look, nobody in their right mind is OK with that black hat/brown jacket combo.
[–]underdog138 40 points41 points42 points 2 years ago
I also take offense on behalf of the gothic community. There's nothing wrong with people waering leashes and chains and listening to Marilyn Manson.
[–]alecb 14 points15 points16 points 2 years ago
Sigh, if only there was a Guantanamo for fashion faux pas....
[–]peturh 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago
Not to mention the black shoes and brown belt.
[–]AtheismFTW 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago
Don't worry, he'll get a black tip soon enough.
[–]121221223 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago
They are so 20@9.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago
And the bondage/s+m look lost its "shock factor" a long time ago.
[–]stesch 129 points130 points131 points 2 years ago
A bit funny that many religious blacks in California voted against gay marriage.
[–]Ash09[S] 86 points87 points88 points 2 years ago
yes, it's just sad
[–][deleted] 115 points116 points117 points 2 years ago
"Man, being free and having equal rights is AWESOME!" eyes other group "now hold on just a second you guys...."
[–]sutcivni 11 points12 points13 points 2 years ago
Let's not get carried away...
[–]scrumpydoo23 41 points42 points43 points 2 years ago*
It's funny, because that's what their ancestors said.
[–]xinu[] 8 points9 points10 points 2 years ago
its like a history lesson come to life!
[–][deleted] 2 years ago
[deleted]
[–]b33r 34 points35 points36 points 2 years ago
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#CAI01p1
70% of African American voters were in favor of Prop 8.
[–]Reverberant 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago
58%, the 70% number number is likely not accurate
[–]zubzub2 7 points8 points9 points 2 years ago
I looked at the report; the follow-up study that you did surveyed a far smaller number of people than did the exit polls (266 black, Latino, and Asian-American voters, see page 2, without any breakdown of how many polled were black -- if in proportion to the population, probably a minority of these), whereas the numbers b33r is citing are the official exit poll numbers.
That being said, it certainly could be true that doing a large-scale study would yield different results.
The blog page that you link to does make one good point, though -- it's not fair to solely blame "black voters" for passing Proposition 8 -- they're only 7% of the voting populace in California. Age and religion make up a larger component of the voting populace. Also, the report makes another valid point -- blacks are demographically more religious as measured by frequency of attendance at religious services than any other US ethnic or racial group -- and this is probably a big part of the relevant numbers.
[–]likeahurricane 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago
Exit polls also told us John Kerry was going to be president...
Not saying the study is any more accurate, just that exit polling data is crap.
[–]Reverberant 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago
the follow-up study that you did
Just a clarification - I did not do this study, I just found the link on google. (IOW, I'm not Ta-Nehisi Coates, Patrick J. Egan, or Kenneth Sherrill).
whereas the numbers b33r is citing are the official exit poll numbers.
The exit poll methodology that CNN used had some problems as ell, namely that the polls were conducted at "random" precincts but blacks are only found in significant numbers in a few CA precincts.
This is not so say that blacks did not vote in large numbers for Prop 8, all the data seem to indicate that they did, I'm just trying to point out the the "70%" number isn't right.
[–]cohesion 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago
here is some details from fivethirtyeight, http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/prop-8-myths.html
tl;dr: not super true
All this is saying is that first-time voters who voted for Obama voted against Prop 8. African Americans as a whole still voted for it by a large margin.
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago
Yes sorry to say I just talked with someone I know (he's black), and he defended the Jews as "the best slave owners".
I lol'ed then I cried.
[–]play3393 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago
I don't think it's funny at all.
[–]stesch 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago
I wanted to say "ironic", but then we would rather discuss the definition of it.
[–]jackolas 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago
Could have said queer.
[–]harlows_monkeys 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago
You could have left the word "religious" out of that without affecting the validity of the observation. Gay people do not get much of a welcome in other minority communities.
The black supremacists (yes, they exist) even tend to claim that there was no homosexuality in Africa--homosexuality is a white thing, and so any gay black person is a traitor to their race.
[–]powercow -5 points-4 points-3 points 2 years ago*
Well it is somewhat explainable.. in the fact that the african american community is struggling "family" creation issues. They have a higher percentage of single parent families and dont like that stat. You recall the million man march.. which was mainly about getting black men to promise to take care of their responsibilities as family men.
I'm not saying this is a good excuse to vote for oppression.. but right now they are in a fight for traditional families and see things that arent traditional as a threat to that goal.
Not being black.. this is just a theory of mine.
[–]Reverberant 9 points10 points11 points 2 years ago
They have a higher percentage of single parent families and dont like that stat.
..
??
As the Official Representative of Black America I can guarantee you that the views of blacks on gay marriage have absolutely nothing to do with black single-parent statistics.
[–]powercow 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago
dont wish to expand? It is just somethign that baffled me so i made a theory from my limited experience.. your down votes and stupid comment dont really help educate me or change my mind.. so what the fuck is your point?
I'm sorry if i have seen many instances of the african american community trying to save the traditional family and conflated that with right wing christian extremest goals to do the same.. Perhaps you could drop the jokes and explain your point.
[–]Reverberant 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago
What is there to explain? I never heard a black person say "the number of single-parent black families really bothers me... I think I'll go hate on some gays to make up for it."
When black folk talk about the 'traditional family" it's never been in the sense of the "traditional family = one man + one woman" it's always been in the sense of "if you're going to knock boots and produce offspring, please remember that full time mother + full time father = successful kids." What other families do has never entered into the equation.
[–][deleted] 28 points29 points30 points 2 years ago
I cannot believe in a God who will not let me eat shrimp or lobster. How can you create something so tasty and then forbid me from eating it?
[–]userax 32 points33 points34 points 2 years ago
It's to test your faith, silly. Like everything else in the world.
[–][deleted] 16 points17 points18 points 2 years ago
What tests my faith is waiting for my shrimp and lobster. Why have you forsaken me oh! Lord!
[–]davidreiss666 8 points9 points10 points 2 years ago
Well, obviously you don't understand the bible. You see, shrimp and lobsters are the real chosen species. The role of humans is to to make sure no other creatures on the planet harm the shrimps or lobsters.
[–]ericarlen 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago
I've heard that people taste like chicken.
[–][deleted] 133 points134 points135 points 2 years ago*
As a gay man I am really tired of gay, Christian, Bible apologists who argue the Bible is anti-gay because of errors in translation. The Bible is very obviously as anti-gay as it is anti-female, anti-shrimp, anti-lobster and pro-slavery. It is a loathsome, arrogant text of the Bronze age that should in no way remain relevant in our times. There is really no going around Biblical homophobia; If you are gay, and in need of spirituality you should choose some belief system that doesn't loathe your very existence.
I guess the traditional religions go out the window then.
[–]massiveboner911 11 points12 points13 points 2 years ago
Well spoken.
[–]davidreiss666 38 points39 points40 points 2 years ago
Well, to be fair... the bible could be interpreted as pro-shrimp and pro-lobster. After all, if you were a lobster one of your greatest nightmares would involve somebody with a big vat of boiling water and liquefied butter.
Maybe that was it -- we aren't supposed to kill, cook and eat the gays. Maybe it's just a huge issue with the modern accepted interpretation.
[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 2 years ago
You are correct, it is Anti-eating shrimp and lobster.
[–]will_itblend 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago
Perhaps 'lobster and shrimp', in ancient Aramaic, were slang terms for the penis and the clitoris.
[–]Haemogoblin 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago
Oh man, just put that lobster right in my boiling pot; I'll handle the shrimp.
[–]lungfish59 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago
Some confused Greeks thought the Jews must worship pigs, since they refused to kill and eat them.
[–]OsakaWilson 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago
True. If the Shrimp/Lobster Lobby had any money, I'm guessing they would be pouring cash into the pockets of politicians who take a literal interpretation of the bible.
[–]Jynx1989 10 points11 points12 points 2 years ago
In leviticus where it says "man shall not lie with man" it also says "a man shall not lie where a women has bled" Which of course means i would be going to a red tent every month but what i don't get is if being gay is so much a sin, isn't being in the same bed with a women on her period Just the same? how come there isn't being a law passed?
[–]will_itblend -10 points-9 points-8 points 2 years ago
In leviticus where it says "man shall not lie with man" it also says "a man shall not lie where a women has bled"
Could it be that the admittedly crappy, obsolete old book of fables has again been misinterpreted?
'Lie' may not be are reference to lying downor having sex, but rather, a reference to telling lies.
Then, it would mean that a man shouldn't tell lies to other men, or to women when they are on the rag.
As many men consider that it is OK, and even necessary to lie to women all the time (I personally don't share in that belief), that old book was simply telling them to:
always tell the truth with other men, and also, don't even try to lie to women on their period, 'cause they will know it right away, and are liable to bite your head off!
[–]bgaesop 14 points15 points16 points 2 years ago
No, the original Hebrew is quite clear about it being "lie down." They're only homonyms in English
[–]will_itblend 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago
I know that... I guess I go too far with my deadpan humor (dry humor) sometimes, and people think I'm being serious even though it seems very obviously a joke to me!
But speaking of homo-nyms...
(OK I'll stop now!)
[–]faultydesign -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago
Yep, pretty much.
[–]Jynx1989 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago
Either way, people are "picking and choosing" what they would like to believe instead of recognizing that being gay a long time ago meant no pro creation and meant low population and so to fix that they said it was wrong. I have never heard that particular interpretation (I was raised catholic) and somewhere between finding my sexuality I realized it was good for a certain time but is out of date for today. I could be very wrong and you could be right, either way can we at least agree that the book is crap?
[–]cohesion 9 points10 points11 points 2 years ago
amen! :) it really is silly, it's not a translation error, it's just depressing that people need to believe that...
[–]IConrad 20 points21 points22 points 2 years ago
No, it is a translation error. The error being that it was ever translated, as opposed to burned for kindling, you see.
[–][deleted] 20 points21 points22 points 2 years ago
I think the Bible deserves an important place amongst literature from the ancient world. It should be studied and regarded as Greek and Roman mythology. It should not be the foundation of our society's morality.
[–]IConrad 10 points11 points12 points 2 years ago
Well, yes. In all honesty, that's certainly fair enough. I was mostly engaging in hyperbole.
[–]viceroy_eric 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago
I am kind of wary of anyone saying any book should be burned for any reason.
[–]buu700 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago
That's very unChristian of you. Do you not wish to see at least the sinful warlock known as Potter purged from our great society?
[–]gaso 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago
The bible is the inerrant word of god himself. Christians can't be held accountable that their god is a moronic, contradictory douche-bag.
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago
I can't believe in something that is anti-bacon.
Buddhism?
[–]pumpkin_gypsy 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago
Perfectly put.
[–]DSLJohn 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago
in need of spirituality you should choose some belief system that doesn't loathe your very existence.
That's the challenge, huh? My wife is as liberal as I am, maybe even more. She is incredibly pro-gay rights, as are my kids. But she feels the need to have some type of religion in her and the kids life. She chose to do a very liberal form of Christianity, which I contend is rooted in beliefs that so contradict her own. Yet, there isn't really a fitting substitution.
[–]bgaesop 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago
Which really liberal branch?
[–]DSLJohn 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago
United Church of Christ, I can't pin down what they actually believe in. But it is very progressive and liberal, very inclusive.
[–]MBlume 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago
I grew up in that branch, which is why I never had a youthful, angry, rebellious break with Christianity, just a gradual dawning realization that it wasn't, y'know, true. Still have great memories from church.
[–]bgaesop 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago
I'm a fan of the Quakers, personally. They're the only branch I've seen that actually practices things like pacifism
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago
I'm starting to think that there's a distinct correlation between the release of Brokeback Mountain and the prevalence of gay cowboys. I might not have a large enough sample space though.
[–]xardox 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago
Well how large is your sample space, and how many gay cowboys have you sampled with it?
I assume the same thing when they are dressed like cops!
[–]libbrichus 15 points16 points17 points 2 years ago*
So is it okay with the half depicting gay BDSM or the half where a cowboy is passing a note to the other cowboy?
[–]jgreen44 29 points30 points31 points 2 years ago*
Where does it say God is into bondage?
Oh, never mind. I just realized. Yahweh's safe word is, "Jesus Christ!"
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago*
Can't be, thats himself.
Yahweh's safe word is "Chosen Race". Once he utter it, the universe need to stop fucking around.
(Edited for the Giggles)
[–]MaxBro 17 points18 points19 points 2 years ago
The Bible's against country music? I think I'm going to have to reconsider everything now.
[–]xinu[] 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago
the bibles allowed to get one right now and then
[–]Stormwatch36 17 points18 points19 points 2 years ago
Guess what type of sentence ends with a question mark.
[–]will_itblend 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago
A question.
No,srsly, a question?
An interrobang?!
[–]Stormwatch36 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago
An interrobang you say‽
[–]patcito 7 points8 points9 points 2 years ago
If you want to see the reply from a christian and have some fun, check it here http://identi.ca/conversation/18125963
[–]desmo 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago
Wow you have punched those idiots so many times they dont know what has hit them. I cant believe the retorts to your facts and links. Talk about move the goal posts when you corner them. The classic was about learning hebrew, what a fucken cop out.
[–]wickedcold 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago
It doesn't say gays should be put to death-you choose to think it does.
So apparently its not that they want gays put to death, just men who have sex with other men. They're making a distinction. How clever.
[–]badjoke33 12 points13 points14 points 2 years ago
I don't know when to use question marks?
[–]will_itblend 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago
I don't know too!
[–]will_itblend 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago
WTF does the bible have against cowboys?
Oh wait...never mind.
It's pretty obvious that churches invent false moral theories to control their parishioners. How else are they going to make money if not by inventing hell and then offering a "cure for hell"? By working like the rest of us? Are you fucking nuts?
[–]will_itblend 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago
Q: What's the difference between the 'priests' and the politicians?
A: The 'priests' have known how to get away with a lot more corruption, for ages.
Have an orangered on me.
[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 2 years ago
Some here are claiming the bible doesn't condemn homosexuality. God's real issue is "wasted seed".
Regardless, you'd figure the lord god almighty, infinite creator of the universe could write with less ambiguity. Let me help him out:
"Look Israel, your ejaculate is really important to me. It must go in a chick's ax wound. If you put it anywhere else, I'll fucking end you."
Look Israel, your ejaculate is really important to me
Sounds like the 'lord' was himself a homo!
[–]bustedagain 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago
It's for IVF. You think the virgin birth was miraculous? Oh no sonny jim ...
She told her parents it must have been a fucking ghost.
[–]wesmwatson 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago
I want to make a gay joke about the two shirtless black guys in chains but I would feel like such a douche.
[–]bna1820 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago
But..but..the Bible supports a nice kind of slavery! One where the owner must treat the slaves very nicely, and one where the slaves have a chance to be free! ... Honest!
[–]drodspectacular 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago
I want this made into postcards for the next holiday season.
[–]db2 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago
Okay, so the mostly-white slightly-black people are supposed to be fresh-from-Africa slaves? Did the crew of the ship spend several lifetimes in the villages first lightening up the skin of their soon-to-be-kidnapped prey?
[–]nopaniers 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago
Neither
[–]fij 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago
I see your Exodus 21:16 and raise you Exodus 21:20-21:
If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
(Emphasis mine)
[–]three141592653589 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago
It certainly gets the point across, but I think it would be more powerful if the image on the right was of a gay couple that emphasized their love for each other rather than the stereotypical gay fashion cowboys. Anyone feel like ammending it?
[–]frogmeat 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago
Was this poster made for people who've never looked inside a Bible?
[–]jherazob 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago
That's almost all christians
[–]kublakhan1816 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago
I doubt many people will say this but the bible can be used and was used to argue against slavery. religous people were very much involved in the abolitionist movement. And this carried over to the arguments made by Martin Luther king during the civil rights movement.
[–]derleth 25 points26 points27 points 2 years ago
I doubt many people will say this but the bible can be used and was used to argue against slavery.
Indeed it was. It was used to defend both sides of that argument. It has been, in fact, used to defend both sides of just about every moral argument Christians have ever faced. So how can such a document be anyone's moral compass when it can be anything you want it to be? What use is a moral compass when it always points towards "I'm right and you're wrong"?
[–]kergeten 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago
Give this man a prize.
[–]kublakhan1816 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago*
I agree with what you're saying. You did a better job than I did explaing why the poster is nonsense. Indeed. Give this man a prize. The bible can easily be used to defend gay relationships and condemn slavery. See with documents like the bible, it requires interpretation and study. That doesn't make it of lesser value than any other thing. The constitution of the US is a good example. Its words have been used to both liberate and harm. The last 200 years of American history and the debates and disagreements by intelligent men and women do not take away from the fact that the constitution has been a good roadmap and compass.
[–]dimensional_dan 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago
Derleth was saying that the Bible is useless because it is ambiguous and contradictory, not that it should be studied to find true meaning. It's a rubbish book that we have morally surpassed.
It's the self contradictory and erroneous nature of the Bible that allows it to be used on both sides of an argument, such as slavery. Personally, I think there is way more evidence to support slavery in the Bible than there is to combat it, and likewise homosexuality is hard to support as a real Bible following Christian.
[–]kublakhan1816 -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago*
I don't understand how you can say it contradicts itself and say there is one real interpretation for the real bible following Christian, a la your statement about homosexuality. through time, the antislavery interpretation won out. So it's really academic to even point to any passages that justify slavery--you aren't arguing against anyone.
[–]dimensional_dan 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago
Anti slavery did not win out because people sat around and discussed what the Bible really meant. Slavery died out because sectarian morality overtook religious values.
[–]derleth 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago
See with documents like the bible, it requires interpretation and study.
So which parts do we study and which do we 'interpret' (ignore)? Don't those parts change over time?
The constitution of the US is a good example. Its words have been used to both liberate and harm.
The Constitution has never been ambiguous on the topic of slavery: It was for it prior to the Civil War, then it was amended to be against it afterwords. That is the honest way of doing things, as opposed to re-interpreting it and magically finding out that it agreed with the correct side the whole time.
This is why I think the Conservapedia Bible Project is honest, despite the fact the people doing it have no idea how to do it right: They're putting down in words the holy text they actually follow, as opposed to deliberately misreading and ignoring the text to support their positions. I wish every religious group would write their own holy text and amend it as their views changed.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago
I thought it was pretty interesting what the original Martin Luther had to say:
This
[–]ctsoccer13 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago
I'm confused... they both look the same to me. One is two black men doing a little BDSM and the other is two white men walking down a catwalk...
Is this a test of racism? I'm onto you...
[–]moonflower 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago
the issue of the OT laws keeps coming up again and again in r/atheism but just because those laws were written and just because some people believe they really were the word of god, doesn't prove anything about the existence of any god ...
i am starting to think that the most productive and useful debate with those who try to uphold those laws, is not to debate the existence of god, but to debate whether any worthwhile god would make such laws ... there's no need to take people's god away from them, just encourage them to be discerning with what they read, and ask themselves if they would really conclude that the OT was the word of god if no-one had told them such a thing
[–]dimensional_dan 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago
It doesn't disprove the existence of God as such but it does lead one to believe one of two things:
a) The Christian god does not exist. There is still room for God, but the self contradictory and morally inferior being described in the OT probably doesn't exist. God as described by Christians can not both be good and have a moral code which seems in places to be evil. That He does not exist is the simplest way to resolve the otherwise critical self contradictions.
b) God has a significantly different moral code than we do, which is hard to justify given that we're created in his image.
c) The Christian god does exist, but the Bible has been changed by man, and the original message has been lost or diluted to the point where the Bible is no longer an accurate reflection of His message. In which case Christianity has stopped being an accurate reflection of the Christian god, which is another way to say that the god that the Christians believe in does not exist.
God could exist, but I find the Christian explanation of Him to be very unsatisfactory.
[–]moonflower 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago
i resolved the dilemma by firstly rejecting the biblical god entirely, but years later, realised there was still a desire for all the good things about believing in some kind of spiritual guidance and heaven, so i'm rebuilding my faith with a new type of god, and she did not dictate any laws :)
[–]dimensional_dan 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago
I think that is perfectly reasonable. There is definitely something in the human psyche that seeks the spiritual. The only thing I would say to you is your spirituality should reflect reality and not just be an exercise in wish-thinking.
that beautifully describes how i feel, ''something in the human psyche that seeks the spiritual'' ... i would say my new beliefs are founded on a clear view of reality, with a simultaneous indulgence of the wishful thinking, meaning that even while one part of my mind is communing with spirit, the other part is aware that it is an illusion, like looking at a rainbow and enjoying it's beauty while knowing it is not really there
Fair enough, nice description.
[–]IConrad 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago
The passages endorsing slavery exist in the NT as well. Also, the passages condemning homosexuality exist in the NT as well.
Saying "The OT did it!" Like the OT was some sort of Simpsons rip-off just doesn't fly.
oh ok, replace everything i said about OT with ''bible'' and it still stands, the point i am making is exactly the same, whatever book it was in
[–]illskillz 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago
The same is true for America's founding fathers (along with the vast majority of the human race prior to the 1800's)
THEN WHAT IS IT FOR?
[–]spitz 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago
Validating the fallibility of humans.
[–]lungfish59 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago
Not all the founding fathers were pro-slavery. Since many fundies treat the Fabulous Furry Founding Fathers as saints, they get all upset when you say bad things about 'em. You can find a vigorous defense here:
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-wall/wal-g003.html
Of course in the end, they were willing to compromise to get the Constitution signed. That means, they were willing to allow large numbers of people in the United States to be stripped of all human and civil rights and to be treated as mere chattel in perpetuity -- in order to form a "more perfect union."
The aristocracy simply couldn't live under the Articles of Confederation any longer with the threat of another Shay's Rebellion hanging over their heads. Property must be protected!
[–]ludditte 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago
As I live in a country where gay marriage is a right, and the fact that in my province catholicism is still the religion (not that anybody still goes to church) the drawing feels poignant. As far as the whole discussion by andon about the exact meaning, he is the only one arguing his point. It is clear to everybody that the same people who use the bible to stop giving equal rights to gays are the descendants of the people who used the bible to defend slavery and later the apartheid laws of the USA. If the priests, bishops and cardinals actually believed anything in the bible, they would not stand accused of rape and pedophilia all over the world. If they believed their book, it stands to reason they would know they will suffer an eternity in hell.
[–]andon 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago
And I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. I started originally by providing a valid point - it is not what the bible is okay with, but what the people who read the bible are okay with. The bible is merely a book - a misinterpreted book. My whole point has been about the connotation of the bible and its original text, not those who use it (or misuse it via faulty translations.)
People will keep doing what they want to do, regardless, and they will find the means, reasons, or excuses to do so.
[–]wsuBobby 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago
Anyone mind sharing the two bible passages these are referencing?
Well, for the gay side, you've got Romans 1:26-27. As for slaves? Well, there are certainly a lot of passages to choose from, but here's a random one.
[–]wsuBobby 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago
Sweet thanks.
[–]groundround 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%201:8-10&version=NIV
specifically verse 10
So I guess it's OK to own slaves, but not to trade them. Great.
[–]groundround -2 points-1 points0 points 2 years ago
If you look at the slaves in the image, they are in chains. This means they're stolen. The OP should have made that with a picture of a plantation but it doesn't elicit the same effect as a chained up man that has been stolen.
[–]IConrad 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago
Except the slave-owners in those shots actually did buy them, and from neighboring countries.
The Bible has no "fruit of a poisoned tree" policy when it comes to purchasing goods. If you buy something legitimately from someone who stole it, then it's yours fair and square. Chained slaves is "kosher" here.
[–]nopaniers 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago
Where you are getting that from? What's the verse which says that stolen property is legitimately yours if you buy it?
Other way around. There's no verse that says it isn't legitimately yours if you buy it.
It's called being a bona fide purchaser. So long as the purchaser doesn't know they are receiving stolen goods (and mind you, that's "know" in the legal sense) then they -- in many states in the US anyhow -- are the legal holders of title for the property in question. As opposed to having committed reset, to reference Scottish law. (Wikipedia trips are fun, by the way.)
Interesting:
We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious
Be righteous and exempt?
You still don't sin. If you steal from your parents, they probably won't call the police because they love you and know you love them and because of that relationship, will be eager to reconcile. If you steal from a stranger, they probably will call the law on you.
http://kjv.us/romans/6.htm
[–]Logg 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2018:22&version=NIV , also.
[–]eimikion 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago
Bible is against SM relationts between black people? Truly it is holy book.
[–]sciz 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago
This may well blow the republican Christian fundies mind!
[–]Pea_Tear_Griffin 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago
So our choices are gay white cowboys and gay black guys into S&M?
[–]EdinburghMovers 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago
Who cares what the church is all right with. Another 50 years and they'll be all but gone anyway, and I for one say good riddance. What a load of old fairy stories, not to mention being responsible for killing more people than everything else put together.
[–]DSLJohn 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago
Now, that should be on a billboard.
[–]andon -8 points-7 points-6 points 2 years ago*
I think they meant "guess which one biblical literalists [are] okay with," keeping in mind that biblical literalism is actually a fairly recent (within the last 100 years, give or take,) development.
There's actually nothing in the bible that blatantly states that homosexuality is wrong. Hell, the first time that the word homosexual was used was in 1868, in a private letter by Karl-Maria Kertbeny, with the first public utterance in 1869. The whole "abomination" thing is misleading, as the word used to specifically mean "against the norm," as in, against the norms of the Israelite culture at the time (Levitical laws.)
The only reason that male on male (no pun intended) sexual intercourse was looked down upon back then was because it was considered a waste of seed (as they believed that life came [again, no pun intended,] solely from the male, and that the woman was just an "incubator,") and because assuming the feminine role in the sexual act was an act of humiliation. Conquering armies used to sodomize (again, a word created long after its namesake existed, if it did,) their enemies as a show of dominance and humiliation, as anything equated with being feminine was equated with being weak, or soft.
Also, regarding Sodom, scholars believe that in the story (or in actuality, if taking the approach of a biblical scholar,) Sodom was destroyed for its inhospitality. Keep in mind that this city was in the fucking desert, and the Sodomites were said to be xenophobic and turned any travelers away. In the story, the men of Sodom wanted Lot to give up his guests because they were outsiders, and they wanted to humiliate them. The "sin" of Sodom was not homosexuality - it was greed, inhospitality, and general dickery.
I'm an unabashed athiest, but - god damn it, people - please know what you're talking about before you make stuff like this. It makes you (and by proxy, us,) look none the wiser than those you criticize.
EDIT: Please read the rest of the posts before you give in to a hive mind mentality and vote this down. It's common reddiquette. I am not "criticizing" anyone but the person who made the [de]motivational poster with that last statement.
[–][deleted] 22 points23 points24 points 2 years ago
I think they meant "guess which one biblical literalists [are] okay with,"
I don't know how you can interpret Romans 1:26-27 as anything but condemning homosexuality.
keeping in mind that biblical literalism is actually a fairly recent (within the last 100 years, give or take,) development.
That's a pretty misleading logical progression you've got there, since using the Bible as a basis for persecuting gays goes back over 800 years.
The only reason that male on male (no pun intended) sexual intercourse was looked down upon back then was because it was considered a waste of seed (as they believed that life came [again, no pun intended,] solely from the male
I've heard this before but never with evidence. Do you have any?
[–]vishalrix 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago
Its you who are being literalist, looking for exact phrase which makes homosexuality a crime. The Pope, and the other religionists condemn homosexuality as crime. Thats all what we are talking baout. Nobody cares what the bible says.
Btw, jsut because homosexuality is not condemned does not mean that the OT or NT condones it. It does not allow it either. Can you show where it allows it?
For most of religionists at that time, homnosexuality would have been so beyond the pale that they dont even care to mention it in the 10 commandments. It was implicit sin.
[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 2 years ago
We're complaining about what the bible says right now. Even if your unsourced information is true, it doesn't matter. Many many leaders of the big 3 religions claim their scripture condemns homosexuality, and many of their followers mistreat homosexuals. That's fair game for criticism, even if their books meant something different two thousand years ago.
[–]andon -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago
My whole point is in reference to the [de]motivational poster and the bible itself, not what those who preach it claim. Also, as I've stated - that last part was in reference to the creator of the poster, not those here. Read the other posts before you reply, please.
Unsourced information? It's simple history and ancient semantics. I don't know how proven facts about history and language can be unsourced when it's common (read: open,) knowledge. Do a little (honestly,) looking and you'll find a very general consensus on what biblical scholars think the bible meant.
Bullshit. There are a huge bunch of people who are not bible literalists yet still choose to cherrypick passages from the bible or obey their priest in order to rationalize their bigotry.
What are you talking about? I'm not making excuses for anyone here, I was merely pointing out what most scholars believe the bible actually said back then and what they thought it meant.
You still don't contradict this. Remember the question. The bible still approves of slavery, even if it didn't make a statement about homosexuality. So before you try to be pedantic, read the headline.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago*
You need to look into the teachings of the Apostle Paul. Even if it isn't explicit in the Old Testament, it certainly is in the New Testament. The Old Testament also had women in strong leadership positions, then the Apostle Paul came in and fucked that up to.
[–]andon -3 points-2 points-1 points 2 years ago
See my other response regarding Romans 1:26-27.
[–]neurosnap 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago
The problem stems from Christians taking a book literally when the book itself is open to interpretation. The ignorance lies within their rigid fundamentalism, we are just reacting to what they think is in the Bible.
[–]andon -2 points-1 points0 points 2 years ago*
Exactly, that's the point/problem. The bible says dick about homosexuality, because that word didn't even exist back then. Literalists just took a very narrow interpretation of the story in the texts and called it the word.
[–]zubzub2 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago
The bible says dick about homosexuality, because that word didn't even exist back then
To clarify -- at the time, the concept of sexual orientation did not really exist. One might engage in homosexual acts, but it was simply something one might do, like going to the store to pick up eggs.
[–]andon 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago
Agreed.
[–]bgaesop 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago
If the bible talking about man-on-man sex doesn't relate to homosexuality because the word "homosexuality" didn't exist, then the bible says dick about Jesus because the name used was "Yeshua"
[–]andon 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago*
Many would regard "abomination," "enormous sin", etc. as particularly poor translations of the original Hebrew word which really means "ritually unclean" within an ancient Israelite era. The Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures (circa 3rd century BCE) translated "to'ebah " into Greek as "bdelygma," which meant ritual impurity. If the writer(s) of Leviticus had wished to refer to a moral violation, a sin, he would have used the Hebrew word "zimah." - http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibh5.htm
Another Hebrew word zimah could have been used - if that was what the authors intended. Zimah means, not what is objectionable for religious or cultural reasons, but what is wrong in itself. It means an injustice, a sin. For example, in condemnation of temple prostitutes involving idolatry, "toevah" is employed (e.g. 1 (3) Kings 14:24), while in prohibitions of prostitution in general a different word "zimah," appears (e.g. Lev. 19:29). - http://www.libchrist.com/other/homosexual/Levsht.html
Regarding the Leviticus reference to toevah being false translated and having nothing to do with homosexuality: A further evidence of this is toevah is used throughout the OT to designate those Jewish sins which involve ethnic contamination or idolatry and very frequently occurs as part of the stock phrase "toevah ha-goyim" "the uncleanness of the Gentiles" (e.g., 2 (4) Kings 16:3).
The significance of toevah become clear when your realize the other Hebrew word "zimah" could have been used - if that was what the authors intended. Zimah means, not what is objectionable for religious or cultural reasons, but what is wrong in itself. It means an injustice, a sin. For example, in condemnation of temple prostitutes involving idolatry, "toevah" is employed (e.g. 1 (3) Kings 14:24), while in prohibitions of prostitution in general a different word "zimah," appears (e.g. Lev. 19:29). Often but yes, not always, "toevah" specifically means "idol" (E.g., Isa. 44:19; Ezek 7:20, 16:36; Jer. 16:18; cf. Deut. 7:25-26).
Clearly, then, Leviticus does not say that a man to lie with man is wrong or a sin. Rather, it is a ritual violation, an "uncleanness"; it is something "dirty" ritualistically. Lev 18 is specifically designed to distinguish the Jews from the pagans among whom they had been living, or would live, as its opening remark make clear - "After the doings of the land of Egypt, .....etc and the prohibition of supposedly homosexual acts follows immediately upon a prohibition of idolatrous sexuality (the female temple prostitutes worshipping the pagan fertility gods) (often mistranslated fornication but a obvious mistranslation in the proper context).
This conclusion finds further support in the Septuagint where the toevah is translated with the Greek word "bdelygma". Fully consistent with the Hebrew, the Greek bdelygma means a ritual impurity. Once again, other Greek words were available, like "anomia", meaning a violation of law or a wrong or a sin. That word could have been used to translate toevah. In fact, in some cases anomia was used to translate toevah- when the offense in question was not just a ritual impurity but also a real wrong of an injustice, like offering child sacrifice or having sex with another man's wife, in violation of his property rights. The Greek translators could have used anomia; they used bdelygma.
Evidently, the Jews of that pre-Christian era simply did not understand Leviticus to forbid male-male sex because it is wrong in itself. They understood Leviticus to forbid male-male sex because it offended ancient Jewish sensitivities: it was dirty and Canaanite-like, it was unjewish. And that is exactly how they translated the Hebrew text into Greek before Christ. It makes no statement about the morality of homosexual acts as such. In today's society similar unclean acts might include picking ones nose, burping or passing gas. - http://www.lionking.org/~kovu/bible/section05.html
Yet the Holiness Code author used the less condemnable term "toevah," signifying same-sex activity as ritually unclean, such as eating pork or other meat of clovenfooted animals (Lev. 11:7), crustacean seafood that have no fins or scales (11:10-12), certain fowls (11:13-19), and certain fowls that creep on all four (11:20-23). All are considered abominations, i.e. ritually unclean, but nothing more. - http://biblelore.com/Biblelore%202.htm
That was just a simple Google search, but - I mean - I could go on....
EDIT: Fucking markdown.
But it's still not good, right? And that whole "put to death" thing is still there (or is that a literalist reading?)
Here's my reply to a similar post:
They don't necessarily. There is some evidence that there were two individual documents that were combined to make up Leviticus
According to traditional belief, Leviticus is the word of Yahweh, dictated to Moses from the Tent of Meeting before Mount Sinai. Since the 19th century, scholars have regarded Leviticus as being almost entirely a product of the priestly source, (more recent scholarship prefers to refer to a "priestly school" of editors rather than a single priestly source), originating amongst the Aaronid priesthood c 550-400 BC. Leviticus consists of several layers of laws. The base of this accretion is the Holiness Code (chapters 17-26), regarded as an early independent document related the Covenant Code presented earlier in the Bible. Wellhausen regarded the Priestly source as a later, rival, version of the stories contained within JE (a hypothetical intermediate source text of the Torah), the Holiness Code thus being the law code that the priestly source presented as being dictated to Moses at Sinai, in the place of the Covenant Code. Different writers inserted laws, some from earlier independent collections. These additional laws, in the views of those who follow Wellhausen's theories, are those which subsequently formed the Priestly Code, and thus the other portion of Leviticus. It also concerns the laws of the land, and of the seas.
EDIT: Also, those laws were created to keep the Israelites - in their mind - "clean" and set apart from the Gentiles. As I'm sure you know, there are also laws about not touching a woman while she is menstruating, not cutting the sides of your hair (if you're a male,) not mixing two different types of fabrics, etc. And yet, for some reason, literalists have clung to that one "law," and not the others.
I don't see how this says anything about the fact that the Bible doesn't endorse homosexuality (and does say it is punishable by death, maybe not in every single place it is mentioned but in enough to count). You can talk about the provenance of texts all day long, the point that most are making (including the OP) is that in multiple Biblical texts slavery is acceptable and homosexuality is not. It is irrelevant what literalists choose to make important, although it does serve to provoke amusing visual juxtopositions...
[–]neurosnap 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago
I was more or less responding to your closing statement about "us" being ignorant about the situation.
but - god damn it, people - please know what you're talking about before you make stuff like this. It makes you (and by proxy, us,) look none the wiser than those you criticize.
Ahh, I see now, by my closing statement wasn't directed at anyone here, rather it was directed at the person who made the [de]motivational poster - whoever it may be.
[–]KetchupMark -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago
Hand-holding cowboy's strutting down the catwalk?
[–]eramos -4 points-3 points-2 points 2 years ago*
Both, actually. I've read some pretty convincing arguments that the Bible doesn't actually condemn homosexuality (though it requires the Bible to be pretty misogynist, so pick your poison).
[–][deleted] 11 points12 points13 points 2 years ago*
Leviticus 20:13 - If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
[–]andon -5 points-4 points-3 points 2 years ago
That's an inaccurate translation. See my post above (or below, whatever.)
[–]monesy 8 points9 points10 points 2 years ago
Care to cherry pick?:
New International Version (©1984) "'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
New Living Translation (©2007) "If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.
New American Standard Bible (©1995) If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995) When a man has sexual intercourse with another man as with a woman, both men are doing something disgusting and must be put to death. They deserve to die.
King James Bible If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
American King James Version If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be on them.
American Standard Version And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Bible in Basic English And if a man has sex relations with a man, the two of them have done a disgusting thing: let them be put to death; their blood will be on them.
Douay-Rheims Bible If any one lie with a man se with a woman, both have committed an abomination, let them be put to death: their blood be upon them.
Darby Bible Translation And if a man lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall certainly be put to death; their blood is upon them.
English Revised Version And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Webster's Bible Translation If a man also shall lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
World English Bible "'If a man lies with a male, as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Young's Literal Translation And a man who lieth with a male as one lieth with a woman; abomination both of them have done; they are certainly put to death; their blood is on them.
Surely, and here's why: detestable ≠ abomination. Abomination simply means against nature, whatever that nature may be. There is no positive or negative connotation to that word alone. Your own post proves what I've been trying to say this whole time: it's all about connotation and mistranslation. The abomination is wasting seed, not being homosexual.
Also, nearly all of those bibles are constantly updated with "better" translations and words added in.
[–]dimensional_dan 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago
The being "put to death" part doesn't give you some idea of the gravity of the crime? I mean you can read that in the nicest possible way and yet the writers of the Bible still want to kill homosexuals. And Jesus supports their claims by stating to enter heaven you need to follow the old law.
Leviticus 18:22 says nearly the same thing as 20:13, only without punishments attached.
[–]bgaesop 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago
So why does one override the other?
They don't necessarily. There is some evidence that there were several individual documents that were combined to make up Leviticus.
EDIT: Changed "two" to "several" in the second sentence.
[–]monesy 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago
Do you like apples?
The abomination is wasting seed, not being homosexual.
1) It is an abomination to be one who wastes seed
2) Homosexuals waste seed
3) Homosexuals are abominations
Right... so in accordance to the biblical cherry you have decided to pick, Homosexuals are abominations.
How do you like them apples?
[–]andon -6 points-5 points-4 points 2 years ago*
Lame. Let's get into hypotheticals, then, shall we?
There is a homosexual who knows that he must propagate his people, so, when he's about to orgasm while having sex with a man, he pulls out and ejaculates into a woman. He has not wasted his seed, but he is still homosexual. Is he an abomination? By your definition, he is not, and - yet - he still prefers sexual acts with another man.
Furthermore, where does that leave those who unknowingly have sex with a woman who is infertile? Also, what of all of the times that people have sex but no offspring are produced? Are they abominations, or is it the thought that counts? From a historical standpoint, homosexuality has never been the issue - it has always been about those who wasted their seed.
[–]maleman 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago
when he's about to orgasm while having sex with a man, he pulls out and ejaculates into a woman.
Talk about your loopholes
[–]monesy 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago*
Hold up. I certainly DO NOT regard homosexuals as abominations. It is YOU that has stated that it is an abomination to waste seed, cherry picker:
It just so happens that homosexuals belong to that group called abomination, as I have shown with a simple valid syllogism. If we accept your statement as being true, then we must also accept the valid logical conclusion of the syllogism I have presented. <Lame: you dowmodding me for pointing this out.>
Now you are complicating the situation by describing two acts: one homosexual act and one heterosexual act. No problem! According to YOU the homosexual act is an abomination so long as he wastes at least some of his seed. Do you think he managed to avoid wasting a single sperm? That would be impossible. Abomination!
Moreover, even if he ejaculates into a woman, he is bound to waste millions (or more) of sperm, as we know that only one single sperm is required for procreation--the rest go to waste. Hence, according to YOUR statement that wasted seed is an abomination, we must accept that heterosexual sex is also an abomination!
Furthermore, where does that leave those who masturbate, pull out (Onan,) or unknowingly have sex with a woman who is infertile? Also, what of all of the times that people have sex but no offspring are produced? Are they abominations[?]
Again, if we are to accept YOUR claim, then they are all abominations! According to your interpretation, cherry picker, the logical ends of Leviticus 20:13 has become even more bat-shit crazy! <Is that even possible??>
Does the thought count?
Not according to your statement about wasted seed being an abomination, unless the thought leads to wasted seed. According to your statement, sexual preference is irrelevant too; it is the act that matters.
You need to find a new cherry to pick.
You missed the entire point, didn't you? All of those examples I brought up were rhetorical, though I guess that doesn't translate well to plain text.
As an aside, it is indeed the act that matters to many religions nowadays. You are "permitted" to have homosexual thoughts and desires, so long as you don't act on them (watch a film titled "For The Bible Tells Me So.")
Your simple syllogism led to my simple thought experiment - it's what happens in philosophy, amongst other areas. I proved that you can be homosexual and not be an abomination according to the old standards by simply ejaculating into a woman, but also that the argument for/against homosexuality is irrelevant in the first place.
Also, you're not making yourself look any cooler with snarky little nicknames and comments like "you need to find a new cherry to pick." It's lame, and that's why you were downvoted in the first place.
[–]monesy 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago
Um, why do you think I did the original syllogism?? It was to show you that your claim about the 'correct' interpretation of Leviticus 20:13 was bullshit, and to to show you that the logical ends of this claim result in even more bullshit. Your thought experiments served very nicely to further demonstrate that your original claim was garbage.
And they likely justify that assertion using apologetics based on cherry-picked interpretations (just as you have) that serve to soften the literal biblical portrayal of an asshole, vengeful, racist, sexist, homophobic, jealous (etc.) god, to a much more marketable (accepting and loving) god. I haven't watched the movie, but I would be very surprised if the logical ends of their assertions didn't land them in the same pile of bullshit that you landed in.
I proved that you can be homosexual and not be an abomination according to the old standards by simply ejaculating into a woman
No you didn't, dumbass. The logical end of your original statement is that ALL sex (homosexual or heterosexual) is an abomination. WTF!
but [I also proved] that the argument for/against homosexuality is irrelevant in the first place.
Again, you did not prove that. If we accept your original statement that wasting seed is an abomination, then we must also accept that homosexual acts are abominations. WTF, AGAIN!!
Are you on crack?
[–]diggexpat 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago*
So if my wife is barren, and I continue to have sex with her, we should be killed?
What about the guy TAKING the load? He has not wasted seed, so he's cool, right?
What if I feel that there are far too many children in need of a parent, and I choose to masturbate and adopt rather than propagate? I'm wasting seed and should be killed?
Is there anything other than kissing God's ass and being a biblical apologist that doesn't get you killed?
You're right, not solely male/male homosexuality. The bible (specifically, Levitical laws,) condemn any wasting of seed, be it by spilling it on the ground (Onan,) in another man, in an animal, in a mouth, in an anus, etc.
Homosexuality is not the sin - the sin was wasting the seed.
[–]diggexpat 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago
So, if two women are BOTH barren, and gay, they're good, right?
[–]harlows_monkeys -7 points-6 points-5 points 2 years ago
This is rather unconvincing, as slavery in Biblical times was quite a bit different than slavery in the 17-19th centuries.
[–]dimensional_dan 7 points8 points9 points 2 years ago
Yes, slaves in Biblical times were given free unicorns and lived in the clouds.
[–]harlows_monkeys -2 points-1 points0 points 2 years ago
It's amusing that of all the reddits I regularly read (science, technology, math, apple, linux, programming, atheism), it is the atheism one that is the quickest to downvote any fact that might go against the beliefs of the hive mind.
Ancient slavery was justified by circumstance. You lost a war so became a slave. You couldn't pay your debts, so became a slave. If you were able to get out of slavery (buy your way out, for example), you could then join non-slave society, and even rise to a position of power.
Compare to, say, American slavery. There you were a slave because you were seen as inherently inferior to normal humans. If you somehow obtained your freedom, you were still relegated, permanently, to the bottom rungs of society.
[–]treeforface 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago
This is entirely beside the point. It doesn't matter why a person was a slave: the practice itself is still clearly immoral.
[–]h-town -6 points-5 points-4 points 2 years ago
Guess which one the Quran is OK with—today?
Oh wait... Muslims might kill you (look what they do with cartoonists) so stick with insulting the Bible, easy target and they don't care what you think.
[–]davidreiss666 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago
Yeah, people forget that, for example, Saudi Arabia only officially banned Slavery in 1962. And then the government looked the other way for years afterward. In effect, the ban was just a ban on buying new slaves -- those who were already slaves were defacto left that way.
[–]octave1 -6 points-5 points-4 points 2 years ago
We all agree religion blows but these posts are getting a bit much!
[–]DanCorb 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago
The unsubscribe button isn't too hard to find.
[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 2 years ago
I think the bible is fine with cowbos and probably not with chaining people up
[–]Kloss -9 points-8 points-7 points 2 years ago
Locking up crack dealers? Most states are ok with it too.
[–]justinhj -5 points-4 points-3 points 2 years ago
Fuck the bible for reflecting what was socially acceptable at the time it was written rather than what would be in a couple of thousand years. What were they thinking?
[–]frozenfire 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago
They were probably thinking "This is supposed to be the timeless word of Yahweh, our lord."
Anything else is blasphemy.
all it takes is a username and password
create account
is it really that easy? only one way to find out...
already have an account and just want to login?
login
[–]Nerdlinger 258 points259 points260 points ago
[–]underdog138 40 points41 points42 points ago
[–]alecb 14 points15 points16 points ago
[–]peturh 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–]AtheismFTW 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]121221223 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]stesch 129 points130 points131 points ago
[–]Ash09[S] 86 points87 points88 points ago
[–][deleted] 115 points116 points117 points ago
[–]sutcivni 11 points12 points13 points ago
[–]scrumpydoo23 41 points42 points43 points ago*
[–]xinu[
] 8 points9 points10 points ago
[–][deleted] ago
[–]b33r 34 points35 points36 points ago
[–]Reverberant 6 points7 points8 points ago
[–]zubzub2 7 points8 points9 points ago
[–]likeahurricane 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]Reverberant 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]cohesion 6 points7 points8 points ago
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–]play3393 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]stesch 6 points7 points8 points ago
[–]jackolas 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]harlows_monkeys 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]powercow -5 points-4 points-3 points ago*
[–]Reverberant 9 points10 points11 points ago
[–]powercow 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Reverberant 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–][deleted] 28 points29 points30 points ago
[–]userax 32 points33 points34 points ago
[–][deleted] 16 points17 points18 points ago
[–]davidreiss666 8 points9 points10 points ago
[–]ericarlen 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–][deleted] 133 points134 points135 points ago*
[–]massiveboner911 11 points12 points13 points ago
[–]davidreiss666 38 points39 points40 points ago
[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points ago
[–]will_itblend 3 points4 points5 points ago
[–]Haemogoblin 6 points7 points8 points ago
[–]lungfish59 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–]OsakaWilson 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]Jynx1989 10 points11 points12 points ago
[–]cohesion 9 points10 points11 points ago
[–]IConrad 20 points21 points22 points ago
[–][deleted] 20 points21 points22 points ago
[–]IConrad 10 points11 points12 points ago
[–]viceroy_eric 3 points4 points5 points ago
[–]buu700 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]gaso 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points ago
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points ago
[–]pumpkin_gypsy 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]DSLJohn 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]bgaesop 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]DSLJohn 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]MBlume 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]bgaesop 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–][deleted] ago
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]xardox 6 points7 points8 points ago
[–]will_itblend 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]libbrichus 15 points16 points17 points ago*
[–]jgreen44 29 points30 points31 points ago*
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points ago*
[–]MaxBro 17 points18 points19 points ago
[–]xinu[
] 5 points6 points7 points ago
[–]Stormwatch36 17 points18 points19 points ago
[–]will_itblend 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]Stormwatch36 3 points4 points5 points ago
[–]patcito 7 points8 points9 points ago
[–]desmo 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]wickedcold 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]badjoke33 12 points13 points14 points ago
[–]will_itblend 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]will_itblend 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–]will_itblend 5 points6 points7 points ago
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points ago
[–]will_itblend 5 points6 points7 points ago
[–]bustedagain 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]will_itblend 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]wesmwatson 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]bna1820 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]drodspectacular 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]db2 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]nopaniers 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]fij 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]three141592653589 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]frogmeat 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]jherazob 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]kublakhan1816 3 points4 points5 points ago
[–]derleth 25 points26 points27 points ago
[–]kergeten 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]kublakhan1816 0 points1 point2 points ago*
[–]dimensional_dan 3 points4 points5 points ago
[–]kublakhan1816 -1 points0 points1 point ago*
[–]dimensional_dan 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]derleth 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]ctsoccer13 3 points4 points5 points ago
[–]moonflower 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]dimensional_dan 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]moonflower 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]dimensional_dan 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]moonflower 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]dimensional_dan 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]IConrad 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]moonflower 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]illskillz 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–][deleted] ago
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]spitz 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]lungfish59 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]ludditte 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]andon 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]wsuBobby 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points ago
[–]wsuBobby 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]groundround 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–]groundround -2 points-1 points0 points ago
[–]IConrad 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–]nopaniers 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]IConrad 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]fij 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]groundround 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Logg 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]eimikion 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]sciz 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Pea_Tear_Griffin 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]EdinburghMovers 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]DSLJohn 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]KetchupMark -1 points0 points1 point ago
[–]eramos -4 points-3 points-2 points ago*
[–][deleted] 11 points12 points13 points ago*
[–]andon -5 points-4 points-3 points ago
[–]monesy 8 points9 points10 points ago
[–]andon -5 points-4 points-3 points ago
[–]dimensional_dan 6 points7 points8 points ago
[–]andon -3 points-2 points-1 points ago
[–]bgaesop 3 points4 points5 points ago
[–]andon 0 points1 point2 points ago*
[–]monesy 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–]andon -1 points0 points1 point ago
[–]diggexpat 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points ago
[–]justinhj -5 points-4 points-3 points ago
[–]frozenfire 0 points1 point2 points ago