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Wise words, Rorschach. (imgur.com)
submitted 1 month ago by ItsTwitch
[–]ArthurMercer 119 points120 points121 points 1 month ago
Stood in firelight, sweltering. Bloodstain on chest like map of violent new continent. Felt cleansed. Felt dark planet turn under my feet and knew what cats know that makes them scream like babies in night. Looked at sky through smoke heavy with human fat and God was not there. The cold, suffocating dark goes on forever and we are alone. Live our lives, lacking anything better to do. Devise reason later. Born from oblivion; bear children, hell-bound as ourselves, go into oblivion. There is nothing else. Existence is random. Has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long. No meaning save what we choose to impose. This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. Streets stank of fire. The void breathed hard on my heart, turning its illusions to ice, shattering them. Was reborn then, free to scrawl own design on this morally blank world. Was Rorschach.
Does that answer your questions, Doctor?
[–]tombutt 44 points45 points46 points 1 month ago
Alan Moore is a fucking genius.
[–]VolatileChemical 27 points28 points29 points 1 month ago
Yup. Movie quote kinda misses it, original quote is brutal masterful poetry.
[–]Supermoves3000 21 points22 points23 points 1 month ago
Read that as a teenager the day it hit the shelves... was too dense to really appreciate it at the time. Rereading it now, I ... I gotta go over to /r/aww for a while.
[–]VolatileChemical 26 points27 points28 points 1 month ago
Enjoy the pictures of the cute little dogs.
Hope their owners don't one day make them chew on the bones of murdered little girls.
[–]ZenBS 8 points9 points10 points 1 month ago
Corgi. Corgi with head split in half.
[–]BrainSlurper 5 points6 points7 points 1 month ago
I wouldn't say that, they are both pretty good quotes with different meanings (both consistent with the character)
[–]VolatileChemical 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Not really though, the book quote is like "there is no God or fate, there is no objective morality, such philosophies are merely interpretations of random occurences that don't mean anything in and of itself, much like a Rorschach test, which is especially relevant considering the costume and mask I use to represent this, and my reaction to the Rorschach test being administered to me right now. Free from my illusions I am able to determine and define my own philosophy and my own moral code to respond to an uncertain and often cruel world."
The movie quote is like "People do bad things. Those bad things aren't caused by fate or God. Those things may or may not exist." and that's all.
It doesn't quite pack the same punch, and it isn't nearly as clear in terms of what he actually thinks, hence all the theists here saying they agree.
[–]BrainSlurper 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
As I said, different meanings. They don't contradict eachother though.
[–]VolatileChemical 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Ehh, only because the second one doesn't say much of anything... the book speech was saying evil is caused by the relativistic amorality of human existence, the movie speech was saying evil is caused by, y'know, whatever. It's ambivalent and unclear about any misanthropic assertion and more agnostic than atheistic, which contradicts the book.
[–]mnhr 9 points10 points11 points 1 month ago
Genius author, yes.
Have you looked at his religious beliefs? I wouldn't normally point this out, but since this is r/atheism, I'd recommend taking a look.
[–]fatmalcontent 6 points7 points8 points 1 month ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Moore#Religion_and_magic
Religion and magic In 1993, on his fortieth birthday, Moore openly declared his dedication to being a ceremonial magician, something he saw as "a logical end step to my career as a writer".[40] According to a 2001 interview, his inspiration for doing this came when he was writing From Hell in the early 1990s, a book containing much Freemasonic and occult symbolism: "One word balloon in From Hell completely hijacked my life… A character says something like, 'The one place gods inarguably exist is in the human mind'. After I wrote that, I realised I'd accidentally made a true statement, and now I'd have to rearrange my entire life around it. The only thing that seemed to really be appropriate was to become a magician."[58] Moore associates magic very much with writing; "I believe that magic is art, and that art, whether that be music, writing, sculpture, or any other form, is literally magic. Art is, like magic, the science of manipulating symbols, words or images, to achieve changes in consciousness… Indeed to cast a spell is simply to spell, to manipulate words, to change people's consciousness, and this is why I believe that an artist or writer is the closest thing in the contemporary world to a shaman."[40] Connecting his esoteric beliefs with his career in writing, he conceptualised a hypothetical area known as the "Idea Space", describing it as "...a space in which mental events can be said to occur, an idea space which is perhaps universal. Our individual consciousnesses have access to this vast universal space, just as we have individual houses, but the street outside the front door belongs to everybody. It's almost as if ideas are pre-existing forms within this space… The landmasses that might exist in this mind space would be composed entirely of ideas, of concepts, that instead of continents and islands you might have large belief systems, philosophies, Marxism might be one, Judeo-Christian religions might make up another." He subsequently believed that to navigate this space, magical systems like the tarot and the Qabalah would have to be used.[40] Taking up the study of the Qabalah and the writings of the notorious early 20th century occultist Aleister Crowley, Moore accepted ideas from Crowley's religion, Thelema, about True Will being connected to the will of the pantheistic universe.[40] In some of his earlier magical rituals, he utilised mind altering psychedelic drugs but later gave this up, believing that they were unnecessary, and stated, "It's frightening. You call out the names in this strange incomprehensible language, and you're looking into the glass and there appears to be this little man talking to you. It just works."[58] Moore took as his primary deity the ancient Roman snake god Glycon, who was the centre of a cult founded by a prophet known as Alexander of Abonoteichus, and according to Alexander's critic Lucian, the god itself was merely a puppet, something Moore accepts, considering him to be a "complete hoax",[84][85] but dismisses as irrelevant. According to Pagan Studies scholar Ethan Doyle-White, "The very fact that Glycon was probably one big hoax was enough to convince Moore to devote himself to the scaly lord, for, as Moore maintains, the imagination is just as real as reality."[8]
[–]ThirdFloorGreg 7 points8 points9 points 1 month ago
TL;DR: Alan Moore is one hell of a dedicated troll.
[–]fatmalcontent 3 points4 points5 points 1 month ago
If you haven't seen his lectures / videos on the subject, you can pull them up on youtube and they're rather fascinating.
There's a whole world of practical occultism where "gods"/ "entities" are referenced / used not as external entities, but as symbols for rituals that seem to be largely a matter of self-hypnosis, which is rather interesting. On the one hand, it's a lot of nonsense, but on the other hand, if you can use it to create a mental state that makes you more effective / productive / creative, it might be a worthwhile practice.
[–]Paynith 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
Easy there tiger! People might get the idea that religion isn't themosthorriblethingevercreatedbymanevenworsethantheatombomb.
[–]davidjwbailey 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
The fact he smokes, eats and probably wears industrial quantities of weed probably explains those beliefs.
[–]brainburger 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
If you look carefully in all of that, there doesn't seem to be any belief in literal supernatural forces or creatures. It's an elaborate type of mental training.
[–]felltablet 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
That might ruin some choice comments here.
[–]mypantsareonmyhead 3 points4 points5 points 1 month ago
Never heard of him, so just googled him. Fucking hell. He pretty much created Swamp Thing? I had the original Swamp thing comic in the 70's - I was so fucking captivated by that, I must have read it fifty a hundred times. I found it profoundly moving, even as a child.
Definitely going to look into his work some more.Thank you!
[–]ZenBS 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
He didn't create Swamp Thing so much as drastically redefine the character. I don't brloeve he was on the job til the 80s.
[–]bulletbillx 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
He even managed to make images lame superman knock off called Supreme awesome.
And wrote one of the best Batman/Joker books ever - The killing Joke.
[–]CaptainJacket 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Hey man, you're in for a real treat.
Watchmen and V for Vendetta are the two obligatory reads.
I heard his Miracleman is fantastic but I haven't read it yet.
[–]ZeGermanZurmanMerman 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Motion Comic
[–]StonedWooki3 21 points22 points23 points 1 month ago
Always loved Rorschachs' quotes. Dr Manhattan has a good one about not being like god, but I can't quite remember it...
[–]Dumb_bunny 49 points50 points51 points 1 month ago
"She says I am like a god now. I tell her I don’t think there is a god. And if there is I’m nothing like him." -Dr Manhattan
[–]ToastyRaichu 19 points20 points21 points 1 month ago
I was gonna go with:
"I change almost anything, but I can't change human nature"
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 1 month ago
"While I am standing still, I prefer the stillness here. I am tired of earth, these people, I'm tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives." - Dr. Manhattan
[–]StonedWooki3 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
That's the one, thank you!
[–]ei99am 11 points12 points13 points 1 month ago
"Existence is random. Has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long." Everything he says is good EVERYTHING
[–]timms5000 8 points9 points10 points 1 month ago
Love both the quotes and the character (because he is well written). But come on /r/atheism, he's a homophobic misogynistic hateful violent right-wing misanthrope. There are better characters and real people to quote from!
[–]happyfinesad 3 points4 points5 points 1 month ago
I'm with you, there. While I think he's a fantastically-written character, and this quote in particular rings true, he's not anyone to look at as a role model.
[–]CrypticParagon 82 points83 points84 points 1 month ago
I'm pretty sure most Christians would agree with this.
[–]Katamayan57 71 points72 points73 points 1 month ago
Rorschach was actually extremely conservative in the creator of Rorschach's eyes. He believed in God and was very anti-gay and anti-women's rights.
[–]FetusFeast 14 points15 points16 points 1 month ago
He's broken, like every single character inside of The Watchmen.
Still love him as a character though. Not just for his intensity, but also because the fact that he's insane, yet the only one at the beginning of the novel fighting crime, attempting to do good in his own twisted way because he's insane. It drives home just how far the world of the Watchmen has fallen.
[–]wisdumb 12 points13 points14 points 1 month ago
That's what I loved about reading The Watchmen. Every one of them are hypocrites and only The Comedian knew it.
[–]GooglieMooglie 3 points4 points5 points 1 month ago
Except for Dr Manhatten, he was hurtling in the opposite direction and ascending away from all humanity, the only things that sullied his pure neutrality were his human links and roots
[–]The_Elephant_Man 16 points17 points18 points 1 month ago
When I read it in high school I didn't catch on. Wasn't until I read it this past summer for a literary study class that I caught on to a lot of Rorschach's beliefs.
[–]JeanLucSkywalker 13 points14 points15 points 1 month ago
Yeah, Rorschach is basically Rush Limbaugh if he decided to lose a fuckton of weight and fight crime.
[–]BrainSlurper 9 points10 points11 points 1 month ago
I wouldn't say that. Maybe in terms of social ideology, but morally they are very different.
[–]jesuscthulhu 4 points5 points6 points 1 month ago
and have coherent views.
[–]chefsnackycakes 29 points30 points31 points 1 month ago
I am a Christian, and I approve this message.
[–]Elided_Ego 3 points4 points5 points 1 month ago
This is pretty Augustinian.
[–]lmaso99 6 points7 points8 points 1 month ago
Why be that specific? Most people would agree with this. FTFY
[–]CrypticParagon 12 points13 points14 points 1 month ago
The fact that it was posted here seemed to imply that Christians would disagree, but the quote makes no claim on the existence of God anyways, and states what is considered a biblical truth.
But yes, I agree, most people in general would agree with this.
[–]adviceslaves 5 points6 points7 points 1 month ago
Because this quote seems ostensibly posted in support of atheism, when it's actually not. It's a poorly thought out Christian answer to the problem of evil.
[–]horrorfrog 16 points17 points18 points 1 month ago
"RRAAAAARRL" - Rorschach
[–]100110001 7 points8 points9 points 1 month ago
Wise words from a wise man.
[–]iaintgonnadoit 248 points249 points250 points 1 month ago
Is it true that Atheists actually worship quotes?
[–]PSNDonutDude 192 points193 points194 points 1 month ago
I think most atheists understand enough to be atheist, but lack the vocabulary, philosophical thinking and time to come up with ways of explaining what they believe is important in life and how they think. I love quotes, because it is a way of saying how I feel, but giving credit to the person who was able to explain for me, things I cannot say aloud due to my inability to transfer thoughts to speech. These quotes say what I think to be true, and say it poetically, and more intellectually than I could imagine. That's my own view.
[–]FISHHHHHHHH 51 points52 points53 points 1 month ago
-PSNDonutDude
[–]Literary_Hitler_ 19 points20 points21 points 1 month ago
Put a background to it and you've got yerself a ole fancy karma mine!
[–]propthink 81 points82 points83 points 1 month ago
Like this?
10/10 would upvote again.
[–]S7Epic 9 points10 points11 points 1 month ago
I think you mean 'upquote'.
[–]Dakaraim 105 points106 points107 points 1 month ago
Good quote, mind if I worship?
[–]401vs401 40 points41 points42 points 1 month ago
Just clean up after you're done.
[–]Saigancat 8 points9 points10 points 1 month ago
Aw man he got worship everywhere...
[–]trilobitemk7 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Ever considered /r/quoteporn ?
[–]sungtzu 4 points5 points6 points 1 month ago
Can't find a quote to fit how I'm feeling for an adequate reply so take an upvote.
[–]My_ducks_sick 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
I'm going to quote this.
[–]hamstock 8 points9 points10 points 1 month ago
Well said.
[–]Sillymemeuser 3 points4 points5 points 1 month ago
Yeah, it seems you're actually doing fine in the transferring thoughts into speech department. And I would actually say this applies to most people, not just atheists.
[–]snowman334 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Mind if I quote you?
[–]PSNDonutDude 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Go ahead!
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I think most atheists don't believe in a god and that's pretty much the only sweeping generalization you can make about them.
Exactly. I tell people this on a daily basis, many atheists share thee views, but the literal definition of atheist is one who did not believe in a deity, or god, or higher being. That's it. You can still be a moron atheist and not accept evolution as the explanation of how we came to be.
[–]HungryHippo1492 8 points9 points10 points 1 month ago
7 times a day Atheists go on Reddit, facing towards their wi-fi source and praise quotes for at least 15 minutes. During their day of rest they are commanded to spend at least an hour circle-jerking, then on the Holy Month of Athiesmo they praise all that is NDT.
[–][deleted] 78 points79 points80 points 1 month ago
This reminds me of why my brother in-law, who works as a prison guard, is atheist: "Those motherfuckers who rape and kill can be forgiven and are going to heaven or whatever, and I live a good life and can't. Fuck that."
[–]tombutt 8 points9 points10 points 1 month ago
I don't see anything wrong with forgiveness and redemption as long as they understand they are responsible for their own actions. I think the problem is people think of it as a get to heaven free card when it's really a much more involved and organic process. People also see forgiving someone as sort of being a pushover and as a sign of weakness when it really is a sign of understanding. It's not saying that you absolve them from guilt and punishment, but recognizing them not as a monster built to destroy happiness but as a human who in a moment through the influence of various chemicals and stimulates made a very terrible decision.
[–]God_of_Abraham 9 points10 points11 points 1 month ago
he should be happy to know they're behind bars.
[–]scottyrobotty 5 points6 points7 points 1 month ago
And I'm sure he knows that for every one that's behind bars there's another who isn't.
[–]God_of_Abraham 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
more like 150. Not everyone is bad, Rorschach just fights some bad guys.
[–][deleted] 15 points16 points17 points 1 month ago
"why your brother-in-law is an atheist"? That doesn't make any sense. He's an atheist because god wont let him into heaven because he's an atheist??
[–]My_ducks_sick 11 points12 points13 points 1 month ago*
Assuming that his brother-in-law doesn't believe in God, as an atheist, it seems as if he is pointing out what he thinks is an absurdity; a child murderer need only ask forgiveness but someone that doesn't see enough evidence to believe in a God would burn in hell (no matter how good the are to others).
[–]Rkynick 3 points4 points5 points 1 month ago
This merits some explanation: I imagine the man values conduct over creed, and hence cannot support a system which contradicts his values (wherein creed matters more than conduct). I'm not sure if the argument is entirely valid, because I'm sure plenty of Christians would say that actions matter more than words, but it isn't circular.
[–]bambonk 4 points5 points6 points 1 month ago
Why can't he be forgiven?
[–]koavf 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I don't see why he thinks he wouldn't go to Heaven or whatever...
[–]kevindavis13 5 points6 points7 points 1 month ago
Dog carcass in alley this morning, tire tread on burst stomach. This city is afraid of me. I have seen it's true face. The streets are extended gutters and the gutters are full of blood and when the drains finally scab over, all the vermin will drown. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout "Save us!"...
...and I'll look down, and whisper "no."
[–]makuta2 3 points4 points5 points 1 month ago
Doc - What do you see?
Dead dog with head split by ax
Rorschach - "Pretty flowers"
[–]lankist 11 points12 points13 points 1 month ago*
ITT more people don't realize that Rorschach was written specifically to outline everything that is wrong with vigilantism.
Pretty much everything he says is wrong. His blind conviction. His black-and-white morality. His swiftness to condemn others. He's a psychopath, designed to demonstrate that a real life Batman would be nothing more than a murderous, insane thug. The reader was not meant to like him. The reader was meant to despise everything about him.
To quote Rorschach as being wise is akin to citing Lex Luthor as a paragon of ethical business practices. Motherfucker stole forty cakes, and that's terrible.
[–]elfstoneprime 5 points6 points7 points 1 month ago
You can see it that way, but it isn't meant to give a straight answer because at the end of the novel, Rorschach was pretty much the only true hero, he's the only one who did heroic things and who did good things. Despite how crazy and brutal he was, he never did anything as an outright psychopath. He didn't kill cops because he knew they did their jobs, everyone who he killed was a vicious evil motherfucker, everyone he beat wasn't exactly a great person. If anything Rorschach is an indictment against humanity, that humans are so fucked that a guy like this would exist.
[–]skratakh 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
i think the scene with the dogs perfectly illustrates your point, there is a lot of ambiguity in that scene, the bone in the graphic novel, just looks like a bone, the only evidence in the clothing, which could have an innocent explanation, rorschach constructed what he thought happened in his head whether it was true or not and used torture to on the person he perceived to be a monster. it's been a while since i've read it but it struck me that he jumped to a lot of conclusions in that scene.
batman doesn't kill people
[–]lankist 5 points6 points7 points 1 month ago*
Yes and he's often very successful in keeping his nemeses from escaping custody, many of whom only took up a life of crime as a direct response to Batman himself.
Rorschach is a condemnation is vigilante justice, portraying vigilantism not as some righteous and heroic crusade but instead how it occurs in the real world: violent, bloody and wholly unjust. The most famous vigilante groups in the real world have almost invariably had ties to white supremacy (the KKK being one of them, before they were officially recognized as a terrorist organization). Vigilante groups in nations such as Mexico have reputations for killing petty thieves before mutilating and displaying their bodies publicly, some of whom were wrongly accused to begin with and many more who stole to survive.
[–]MalevolentVergil 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
many of whom only took up a life of crime as a direct response to Batman himself.
That reminds me of episode with Batman being captured along with new DA and having a trial with Joker and co. judging him for supposedly turning them into villains. In the end it was clear they were wicked enough to become the way they are with or without him.
[–]elfstoneprime 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Not sure if it's an episode but this also happened in Dark Victory mini series/graphic novel.
[–]ffilps 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
i liked rorschach. i hate dr. manhatten. he's an asshat.
[–]Persianninja211 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
There's really no one to hate or like in the Watchmen. I feel they've all done some shitty things in the past and yet are great in some ways, basically pouting to the fact that they're all human, and they all make mistakes. Even dr. Manhattan who is considered a "god" is still a human natured being at heart.
[–]Amalasan 33 points34 points35 points 1 month ago
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? – Epicurus
[–]orchdork7926 10 points11 points12 points 1 month ago
The Christian ideology centers around a just God, not a benevolent God. Just throwing that out there...
[–]CrypticParagon 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
Absolutely. Sadly, many Christians would disagree...
[–]JeanLucSkywalker 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
I'm not sure if that's sad or not. In a lot of ways I'm glad Christians don't follow Yahweh as he is presented in the Bible.
[–]mleeeeeee 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
Is God willing to prevent evil injustice, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil injustice? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
But in any case, justice and benevolence are both traditional moral attributes of God, along with mercy.
[–]orchdork7926 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
The argument here would be centered on the word 'malevolent', not the word 'evil'.
[–]mleeeeeee 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Then:
Is God willing to prevent evil injustice, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent unjust. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil injustice? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Nope,
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent just.
The quote would stop there. Obviously in this version the logic is a bit different, as we've changed a key word, we would have to go on to cite examples of God's character being just in all things. But the idea that he is malevolent through not acting in humanity's benefit in all things is flawed.
[–]fiction8 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Why did you leave evil in there? He said injustice.
Injustice isn't a valid replacement for evil, the original correction was that malevolent should be replaced by just. Mleeeeee misunderstood and substituted evil with injustice instead of malevolent, I was correcting him.
[–]Fleeb 18 points19 points20 points 1 month ago
God works in mysterious ways. Checkmate atheists.
[–]CrackCC_Lurking 9 points10 points11 points 1 month ago
It's all part of his "master plan".
GG atheists, no re.
[–]akebeth 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
This is not a quote from Epicurus, it's very much disputed. At the very best it is a misquote of Lactantius' "quote" (which is a quote that is likely not a real quote, but made up for his story).
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Epicurus#Disputed
[–]Cithog 18 points19 points20 points 1 month ago
As a christian I actually believe that.
[–]SlaughterMeister 12 points13 points14 points 1 month ago
And, as an atheist, this is why I downvoted the image (for the fourth or fifth time, considering repost). This saying in no way suggests an atheistic outlook.
[–]chocomator 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Welcome to r/atheism, you are gonna like it here.
[–]CanIGetaHellYeah 5 points6 points7 points 1 month ago
This quote is actually to show why Rorschach is such a violent sociopath, not a wink to atheism. Just sayin.
[–]StoneColdPsyche 7 points8 points9 points 1 month ago
Nope not even close. Pointing out the flaws in society due to human nature has nothing to do with being a sociopath. Hes simply addressing the scapegoat that people say when bad things happen "this is god punishing us for being sinners" blah, blah, blah. Also, sociopaths don't give a fuck about "justice" or the world around them. Rorschach was indeed borderline crazy but it seemed like he really wished the world was better and that people werent so self-involved and corrupted. Sociopaths do not care about "right" and "wrong" and they kill without a conscience and often timea for no reason other than pleasure. Rorschach was just a cynical vigilante with issues.
[–]Soneca 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
This really doesn't lend credence to an absence of a god. If anything it might actually help explain certain ills to someone. (ie: human suffering is a result of human free will. )
The problem is free will doesn't really exist.
[–]Soneca 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Care to explain?
[–]chocomator 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago*
The universe is deterministic. We humans have this strong feeling of free will, but there is no evidence about the existence of such thing. Whenever you do something, it's because there was a chain of reactions in your body, as a response to an internal or external event. The process is so complex and involves so many variables that it is virtually untraceable, you can never say for sure "this thing triggered your reaction/decision", thus creating the illusion of free will.
There used to be some kind of "hope" due to the discovery of randomness (at the subatomic level) in the beginnings of quantum physics, but now it seems that was wrong (there are experiments that disprove randomness), and we went back to the 100% deterministic view of the universe. If you ask me, even if particles did random things, that wouldn't help the case of free will.
So randomness and free will are illusions. I think in the future this will be accepted just like we accepted there is no God. I still feel a bit perturbed about this finding, but what you gonna do? Like someone said, you have no choice anyway =/. Some people "choose" to live with that illusion, since the result will be the same.
[–]Nemmerle 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
This just has the outward form of wisdom because it uses clipped language and vivid imagery to rephrase a regular truth that many of us believe. And because we believe it when we see it echoed back we get a reward circuit in our brains triggered.
How's this wise? If you don't believe in god, it's essentially axiomatic; like saying 1+1=2. Of course god didn't do these things, he probably doesn't exist.
It's just seems like taking something most people here probably believe and praising them for that belief by proxy; cheer leading.
Wisdom doesn't look like this. Wisdom's something that shows a deep understanding of an issue - insight; which is to say efficiency in the use of your available evidence. Rorschach blamed humans when he saw humanity's dirty side, he detested them. He didn't fight for people, he fought against what he hated - and there's enough evidence in the novel to show that:
"This city is afraid of me. I have seen its true face. The streets are extended gutters and the gutters are full of blood and when the drains finally scab over, all the vermin will drown. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout "Save us!"... and I'll look down and whisper "No." They had a choice, all of them. They could have followed in the footsteps of good men like my father or President Truman. Decent men who believed in a day's work for a day's pay. Instead they followed the droppings of lechers and communists and didn't realize that the trail led over a precipice until it was too late. Don't tell me they didn't have a choice. Now the whole world stands on the brink, staring down into bloody Hell, all those liberals and intellectuals and smooth-talkers... and all of a sudden nobody can think of anything to say."
"This city is afraid of me. I have seen its true face. The streets are extended gutters and the gutters are full of blood and when the drains finally scab over, all the vermin will drown. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout "Save us!"... and I'll look down and whisper "No."
They had a choice, all of them. They could have followed in the footsteps of good men like my father or President Truman. Decent men who believed in a day's work for a day's pay. Instead they followed the droppings of lechers and communists and didn't realize that the trail led over a precipice until it was too late. Don't tell me they didn't have a choice. Now the whole world stands on the brink, staring down into bloody Hell, all those liberals and intellectuals and smooth-talkers... and all of a sudden nobody can think of anything to say."
That's not any sort of deep understanding. He didn't believe god wasn't responsible when he realised that the complexity mass of the proposition was at least on a greater order than that of the universe arising spontaneously, he didn't realise that god wasn't responsible when he looked at the fossil record and saw that order could arise from successive refinement of less orderly states.
He had the same grounds for his rejection of god as all those hate-filled maniacs saying that god is punishing America for its sin. Hatred is not a good grounds for believing one way or the other. His words aren't based on any deep insight, as wisdom is, they're just an expression of hatred and despair.
Rorschach is a very sad character, I think. And also a very dangerous one. Who's he picking out as responsible? Whores, politicians, communists, liberals, intellectuals. His wisdom is a hate list. And he's not a hero fighting evil - he's just starting at the top, and once all the really bad people were gone he'd move on down his list. He very nearly says as much:
"This city is dying of rabies. Is the best I can do to wipe random flecks of foam away from its mouth?"
If there were a perfect world, Rorschach couldn't live there. He thinks he's better than the people he puts away, but in the end he's going to the same metaphorical hell as everyone else. And he does, when the police catch him - in the eyes of society he's just another maniac.
[–]Prinkster 8 points9 points10 points 1 month ago
So now we're quoting hateful misanthropic fascists on this subreddit?
[–]Sillymemeuser 8 points9 points10 points 1 month ago
You don't have to agree with everything the character stand for to agree with the quote. I agree with Bill Maher on a lot of things, but do not agree with his stance on vaccinations, for example.
[–]Prinkster 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
I guess you have a point, but we've fallen pretty far as a group if the best we can come up with is something like this. Quoting someone in this particular fashion (with the pictures and the text highly stylized to make them look as cool as possible) really glorifies that person. My point is that the source of this quote is obviously a detestable human being, and displaying them in this way isn't really helpful to atheists.
It'd be like quoting Stalin or Mao on the subject of religion. Uh, yeah, I bet they had some great pwnages of religion, but they're not exactly the people we want representing our group.
[–]jesuscthulhu 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
You forgot the part about him being awesome.
[–]wisdumb 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Rorschach is literally Hitler.
[–]sirbruce 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Why not? Christians quote God all the time! BAZINGA!
[–]AllHailLordMegatron 11 points12 points13 points 1 month ago
I am a theist and I strongly agree with Rorschach. I have always wondered why people blame God for the suffering on Earth. Some things are natural, such as when a child gets a fatal disease or when a person loses their job and gets plunged into poverty. But some horrible things only happen because of humans. When a genocide is carried out or when a woman is raped and tortured, it is entirely the fault of a human(s). I cannot stand it when people say "What kind of God would let this happen". God does not create this hell on Earth, We do.
[–]ruetero 6 points7 points8 points 1 month ago
The fact of the matter is that god was a busy genocidal, plague-bringing, woman-from-rib creating, 10 commandments on stone writing, actually supposedly interacting with humans, god during biblical times, who now conveniently only appears on toast. I'm not meaning to attack you, but the problem is that there are Christians who see all this hate in the world, and don't ask themselves why their all powerful god isn't interfering, when he clearly had no problem when he boned a virgin, or granted Moses the power to part the sea. If there were a divine being ruling our goings on in the universe, he lost interest and got bored very suddenly and very quickly.
IMO Rorschach isn't saying that the onus for these acts is on man due to our free will from god, but that the reason bad things happen is due to humans being in control. If anything Rorschach is saying that the Watchmen universe is being ruled by a god who's pro murder.
[–]Archaneus 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
You clearly are not familiar with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil
[–]CrackCC_Lurking 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
So then all those bad things are definitely NOT the work of god right?
But the good things still are, yes?
I need an update on where you guys stand with that, as it is often changing.
So.. let's recap.
When someone makes a unexpected recovery from an illness. Or after years of trying to have a baby, an old couple finally manages to conceive. = All that is because of God right?
When thousands of kids in Africa die from aids. Or a couple trying to have kids for years, finally manage to concieve, but then both die in a car crash. = All of this is definitely NOT because of God?
[–]unforgiven_sis 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
I was trying to find the quote by Father Michael Hines that says exactly the same thing the Rorschach is saying here; I don't have a copy of his book here with me, but I'll look up the quote when I get back to college on Sunday and post it here. Just because I think it's nice when atheists and theists can find common ground.
[–]SenorFuerza 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
This guy is one bad mother shut your mouth
[–]nachoe205 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Reading this sends chills down my spine, and makes me grateful I took the time to read Watchmen.
[–]whiskeyNdoritos 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Rorschach was great in Lincoln.
[–]flamingeyebrows 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
While this quote is interesting, Rorsarch, at least in the book does not have a philosophy that is compatible with the more liberal mindset of reddit atheists.
He is homophobic, racist, misogynistic and heavy on the jingoism.
[–]hamstock 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Lets please not have Rorshach be a spokesperson for athiesm.
[–]MrRubberDcky 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Blame - Distance & Tunnidge _^
[–]memebeam 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Wowowowow!... wait
[–]GoofMaster 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
if you haven't read the comic i recommend it strongly. they omitted some very good parts.
[–]JonzeyGears 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Well... that is true God doesn't make the world the way it is, humans make it the way it is. We have freewill... Seriously, why would someone put this here?
[–]hobbiton123 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Doesn't take god out of the equation. still good quote though.
[–]HydrogenxPi 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
You should quote the book, it's better.
[–]dschiff 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Physics does.
+1, we don't do shit. I find it interesting that atheists believe in free will.
[–]dschiff 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Yeah, I suppose people don't read up on determinism to realize the god-stuff is silly. Ideally I'm not even sure if that would be better or necessary?
[–]Shroom_mole 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
This is new. A quote from a sexist, homophobic, homophobic fictional character.
[–]luxieisme 3 points4 points5 points 1 month ago
This does not belong in /r/atheism.
[–]barkingbaritone 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
What if I told you that this is exactly what true Christians believe as well? (The last few lines, specifically.)
[–]CrackCC_Lurking 4 points5 points6 points 1 month ago
Ahhh... Good thing it's the true christians. Don't even want to know what the "fake" christians think on this subject.
[–]Tastea 3 points4 points5 points 1 month ago*
He is absolutely not a right wing nut job. At all. He is an atheist. Go back and read it again if you didn't understand. "This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces" "Born from oblivion, bear children; hellbound as ourselves, go into oblivion." Read the quote at the very end of the chapter from Neitzsche. It is about coming to terms with the meaningless of existence and the fact that any good and evil in the world is created by mankind, not by "God".
edit: pulled out my pitchfork too fast and didn't reply to the right comment
[–]MUTILATOR 21 points22 points23 points 1 month ago
He is a right-wing nut job, and an atheist.
What, you don't think there are right-wing atheists?
p.s. I should note that while I don't think authorial intent is the end-all of interpretation by any means, Alan Moore definitely considers Rorschach a right-winger.
[–]Tastea 3 points4 points5 points 1 month ago
Well I did reply to the OP rather than the comment that offended me so it takes it out of context. He said that Rorschach was acting on the behalf of some belief in god. Atheists can be right wing, absolutely and what is very clear in the story arc is Rorshach's own personal sense of good and evil and right from wrong. He basically sees himself as judge jury and executioner according to his own morals, not by any higher power.
[–]Gerhard2202 2 points3 points4 points 1 month ago
I think your post is in reply to this post in the very same thread. I believe you accidentally replied to the OP as opposed to the aforementioned comment.
[–]SuperDestructo 6 points7 points8 points 1 month ago
He is absolutely not a right wing nut job. At all. He is an atheist.
You can't be both right wing and atheist?
[–]DaFiucciur 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
He is absolutely a right wing nut job straight out of Ayn Rand.
Steve Ditko was a great comics artist and writer (co-creator of Spider-Man) and an objectivist. He created an objectivist character called The Question for a company called Charlton Comics.
DC bought Charlton when it was failing, and Alan Moore wanted to use the Charlton characters for an adult superhero epic. But since he wanted to kill some of the characters off, DC said no. So instead of using Blue Beetle, Moore created Nite-Owl. Instead of using Captain Atom, he created Doctor Manhattan. And instead of The Question, a fedora and trenchcoat wearing detective/vigilante with a blank face who unravels conspiracies (sound familiar?), Moore created Rorschach.
[–]brilliantdumbass 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
You can't be right-wing and athiest? You better let Ayn Rand and all her disciples know
[–]Flabbagazta 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Wise words, Alan Moore
FTFY
[–]koavf 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Please stop posting text as an image.
[–]Dearly_Departed 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Strange that Atheists see this highly conservative character as pro atheism. I see it as a logical man who believes in God, realizing that the reason bad things happen in this world is because we inherited it.
[–]100110001 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I stared at this for a long time while listening to Skyfall, and I think I broke myself. I feel weird now.
[–]ei99am 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Rorschach is the fucking man. This novel changed my life
[–]RQZ 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
wow
[–]iTimmeh 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I'm sure we all understand by now that god is just made up so people can have something to blame things on.
[–]marterfcgavin 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
yeah man, i totally relate with rorscach. this one time, my parents wouldn't let me go to school bad religion shirt. fuckin nazis man
[–]rbcrusaders 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
it's quotes like this that make it easy to see that this subreddit picks and chooses when things that religious people say are true
[–]Coult 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
only just now got his name..........
[–]BossA_W 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
This is the Truth. The more you think about it the more it worries me that people can understand this and look at our selves and the people around us and not help each other when everything is going bad. If everyone would choose to be the hero in us all we would have to believe in god. If perfect existed its long die and gone. I Live for a better day for all of mankind. If I can leave this earth knowing I tried my best to clean up after my self and watch out for those around me both friend and enemy I would die a happy man. I love you all!
[–]DeeEmm1 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Did the band copy this? Cuz if not, shame on them.
[–]jpowerj 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Er... so who/what the hell is "Rorschach"?
[–]GastonBastardo 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Read Watchmen.
You can watch the movie too, but the book is better imo.
Ah got it - thanks!
[–]squashbelly 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Why are there two evil mutant alien babies holding guns where this guys face should be?
[–]mackanova 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
this is all kinds of disturbing...my nipples are hard. yolo
[–]StarngeloveProxy 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
There should be a book full of quotes for the atheists, so they could worship it. Let's cal it " The holy quote"
[–]BBQ_Sauze 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
This video was on yesterday.
What a coincidence.
[–]Poorly_Timed_Kormac 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Rorschach bars my way...
BUT THE WILL OF A TEMPLAR IS STRONGER!!!
[–]tigerphonebooth 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Doesnt this imply there is a God but he's just a dick?
[–]500Rads 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Doesn't this support the premise that god gave us free will and therefore its still religious sentiment?
[–]SquinterMan86 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Most underrated superhero film of all time. Definitely worth a watch or two.
[–]elitron 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
One of my favorite characters, ever.
[–]rivasdre 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Great character, great quote. But it should not be overlooked that Moore also saw Rorschach as a mentally disturbed fascist.
[–]Evis03 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
Broken clocks are right twice a day. Unless they are digital.
[–]Evis03 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Just let me check my universal excuses Callander for today..... Ah yes, God works in mysterious ways. Crisis averted.
[–]Fronesis 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
An unfortunately terrible movie.
[–]ABitMoreComplicated 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
It's a bit more complicated than that.
[–]mermitthefrog 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
YOU'RE LOCKED IN HERE WITH MEEEE
[–]McCourt 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I just saw the movie last night... spooky.
[–]CommanderShep 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
You realize dr manhattan was basically god in the story right?
[–]dathunderdome 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
I wish I could up vote this post more then once.
[–]ContainTheKraKken -1 points0 points1 point 1 month ago
Does anyone else find it funny that every time there's a quotation superimposed over a person or character, the subject of the quotation is atheism?
[–]GaslightProphet 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Bar one line, that is a remarkably Christian.sentiment.
[–]jicty 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Rorschach and doctor Manhattan are my two favorite heroes ever, its hard to decide which on I like more. the comedian is near the top of the list also. Watchmen was just a damn good comic.
[–]Yokhen 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Interestingly enough, despite of everything Rorschach says, I feel like he is also saying that God exists, and therefore Heaven and Hell too.
[–]madmonty98 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
Feel like this applies more to deism than atheism.
[–]Bokana 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
You are taking ideology from a PSYCHOPATH! You are abandoning your lord and savior for the words of a fictional lunatic. This explains how you atheists can stand beside the likes of Stalin and Mao.
[–]Mileskitsune 0 points1 point2 points 1 month ago
In defiance of the hivemind, that movie sucked. it took every super hero cliche and tried to make them idk "fresh" by overdoing the very things that made them cliche. and it tried WAAAAAAAAYYY too hard to pass itself off as badass
[–][deleted] 1 month ago
[deleted]
[–]ZombieBarney 1 point2 points3 points 1 month ago
As a freesbeeterian, I'm offended!
all it takes is a username and password
create account
is it really that easy? only one way to find out...
already have an account and just want to login?
login
π Rendered by PID 14118 on app-133 at 2013-01-22 09:07:30.932363+00:00 running f40af60.
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