this post was submitted on
1,014 points (75% like it)
1,507 up votes 493 down votes

atheism

subscribe1,372,299 readers

822 users here now


Welcome to r/atheism, the web's largest atheist forum. All topics related to atheism, agnosticism and secular living are welcome here. Please read our FAQ.

Please link directly to any images or use imgur to avoid being flagged as blogspam

Recommended reading and viewing

Thank you notes


Related Subreddits <--the big list

GodlessWomen YoungAtheists AtheistParents
BlackAtheism AtheistGems DebateAnAtheist
skeptic agnostic freethought
antitheism humanism Hitchens
a6theism10 tfbd AdviceAtheists
AtheistVids atheismbot secularstudents

Events
11/9-11 Skepticon - Springfield MO
2/8-10 NTS Convention - Dallas TX
3/28-31 AA Convention - Austin
Giving
DWB/MSF fundraiser
Kiva lending team
FBB's Appeal to Freethinkers to Fight Cancer
Camp Quest
Ex* Groups
ex-Muslim ex-Catholic ex-Mormon
ex-JW ex-Jew ex-SistersinZion
ex-Bahai ex-Christian ex-Adventist
Assistance
Coming Out
Atheist Havens
Start an Atheist Club at Your School

Chat: #reddit-atheism on irc.freenode.net

Watch: #/r/atheism on reddit.tv

Read The FAQ


Submit Rage Comic

Submit Facebook Chat

Submit Meme

Submit Something Else

Read The FAQ

a community for

reddit is a source for what's new and popular online. vote on links that you like or dislike and help decide what's popular, or submit your own! learn more ›

all 104 comments

[–]n1i2e3 23 points24 points ago

The Ta dah part gets me every time I see this.

[–]trainedNscience 7 points8 points ago

Go home god you are drunk.

[–]StarlessKnight 1 point2 points ago

Peter Griffin agrees.

[–]BrutalMassacre3 13 points14 points ago

I used this in a school project about how christianity is effecting our environment in a negative way (mainly population growth). Teachers didn't find it quite as funny as i did...

[–]owlsrule143 1 point2 points ago

China is a secular (specially mostly atheist) country and have laws to limit population growth. Only makes sense given logically we have 7 billion people in a world that can only safely sustain 2 billion, and Christianity tries to say all life is holy and must be sustained and increased. Also, Mormons typically have large families which is stupid financially and makes the population grow too fast and is just a bother to raise that many kids..

[–]BrutalMassacre3 2 points3 points ago

That was the main point of my arguments, with views against birth control, abortion and homosexuality all their doing is adding to an already enormous population causing a ton of environmental issues.

[–]owlsrule143 2 points3 points ago

Yes, I was elaborating. That's a message that needs to be spread. The world seems to still be spinning and life goes on, so people just don't care that the world could potentially have major problems imminently due to shit like this. A famous quote, "it's shit like this, Christians"

[–]Jenna07 10 points11 points ago

This is the main point I try to make when discussing religion with believers. I get nothing but blank stares. I don't know how this isn't glaringly obvious to everyone.

[–]comicscholar 0 points1 point ago

I don't suppose anyone will care that the bible doesn't claim God made man with original sin (which didn't occur until Genesis 3)?

[–]Jenna07 0 points1 point ago

Honestly it doesn't matter if he did or didn't - still all bullshit. Not that anyone is still reading this.

[–]noxyflex 1 point2 points ago

You actually need to know the bible a bit better since the argument in that picture isn't completely accurate. I'd encourage you to read the bible front to back, and it will be easy to realize how flawed of a book it is filled with good and bad bits.

[–]Jenna07 10 points11 points ago

I didn't make the picture. And unless you are arguing with a theologist - it doesn't get any deeper than this for your average Christian.

[–]noxyflex 2 points3 points ago

good point

[–]butch81385 1 point2 points ago

As a religious person, I would have to agree with you, which is sad. You should know more about your religion if you truly believe it.

That being said, even if one doesn't understand the deep theological intricacies of a religion, they can still believe the religion if they accept that other people do understand the deep theological intricacies. Would I rely solely on someone else's understanding? No. But many people are willing to do so.

As for the picture itself, well obviously it was created in an overly simplistic view in a negative light. I can find humor in it because I know my faith and why I believe it. However, if someone really thinks it is as simple as this and as easy to discredit as this, then you need to go study. There are plenty of good arguments to be made against religious beliefs, but this isn't one of them.

[–]StarlessKnight 3 points4 points ago

That being said, even if one doesn't understand the deep theological intricacies of a religion, they can still believe the religion if they accept that other people do understand the deep theological intricacies.

I would, however, argue that they do not "truly believe it" if they never bother to learn about the religion and instead are content with the caricature of their religion as espoused by someone they think knows the religion better than they do. We are after all talking about eternity. The afterlife. Eternal bliss or eternal damnation. The very fabric of the universe and why it was formed in the first place. Foundations of the Human race (e.g. Adam and Eve, Noah, etc.). But... some people can't be bothered. Got to hurry home for The Game starting in an hour. I cannot express how much seeing the "faith" people had made me (and continues to make me) want to just stare at people with the "are you fucking stupid?" when I was younger. It makes no sense at all for people to claim to believe in the dichotomy of Heaven and Hell if they aren't be bothered to do more than show up for Sunday service and/or maybe Bible Study.

I can at least respect a person that tries to adhere more to their religious beliefs (so long as it doesn't harm others or attempt to unduly influence society in a negative manner -- which is unfortunately a subjective matter), because they have some measure of self-respect for themselves and their beliefs. People with questions? I can respect that too. Doubts? Yes. But to claim to be an adherent of a religion and sit on their ass (figuratively or literally)? No.

[–]jsneaks 0 points1 point ago

I grew up attending church and have read the vast majority of The Bible. I would absolutely love to hear a coherent explanation for Christ's significance which doesn't reduce to this picture.

[–]noxyflex -1 points0 points ago

1) You wouldn't love to hear it. 2) The premise is simple: a) The christian is arrogant in that he knows the through through 'divine' revelation via a text riddled with errors and a story of an impotent god, therefore he will not see, hear, or think about opposing views. b) the non-theist is arrogant in the fact that objective data proves his stance to be valid, and the silliness of religion causes him to not want to see, hear, or think about their position

in short, it's a waste of time to even make that statement, which in itself is arrogant, with you saying "I KNOW the bible is true and inerrant, give me a chance to prove how STUPID and UNENLIGHTENED you are"

[–]jsneaks 0 points1 point ago

No, I'm pretty sure that it's possible to discuss religious doctrine. It does, in fact, exist.

[–]noxyflex 0 points1 point ago

You're talking out of your ass now. you have nothing valid to say. Secondly, your statement is irrelevant. there are thousands and thousands of religions and gods and beliefs some overlap, some are counterfeits like the story of Jesus being a ripoff of the story of Horus which preceded it. the christian is just arrogant in claiming that theirs is absolutely true (on no evidence i might add), although this is a claim every other faith makes .^

[–]obamaANDromneySUCKS 6 points7 points ago

Where the entire thing falls apart is that he didn't create us with original sin aw mannn.

[–]Duskendymion 0 points1 point ago

Right. As the story goes we have original sin from Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were not created with sin, stupid Eve thought a talking snake knew better than her dad and fucked up everything for everyone starting with the stand up good guy Adam. From then on women would have pain bearing children and children are born with original sin. Try again OP.

Then u dunk the Babies in magic water and no more original sin. TA DAH!!

[–]obamaANDromneySUCKS 0 points1 point ago

Exactly. baby dunking, the new Olympic sport.

[–][deleted] ago

[deleted]

[–]obamaANDromneySUCKS 6 points7 points ago

I though it was man who created original sin when they disobeyed god and not God himself that created it.

I think..

[–][deleted] ago

[deleted]

[–]obamaANDromneySUCKS 0 points1 point ago

That could have been the case.

or maybe sin is not actually something created but an act.

[–]painperdu 1 point2 points ago

What is an act if it isn't something that is created?

[–]obamaANDromneySUCKS 0 points1 point ago

An act is an action. Not necessarily a creation.

[–]painperdu 1 point2 points ago

Acts have actors.

[–]obamaANDromneySUCKS 0 points1 point ago

Here is another way to put it. Lets say god created only you and a small ball. If you looked at the ball, God did not create that action of you looking at the ball. that was all you buddy good job.

[–]painperdu 0 points1 point ago

This wouldn't mean that I created my looking at the ball?

[–][deleted] ago

[deleted]

[–]elusive14 -3 points-2 points ago

Sin isn't created, it's carried out. It's something you do that you're not supposed to do. Sure, God could take away your ability to do things you shouldn't. But then you no longer have freewill and you're only doing what you're hardwired to do.

Blaming God for your poor choices simply because he allowed you the choice is insane.

[–][deleted] ago

[deleted]

[–]Soutine 1 point2 points ago

Although in this case, eating an apple is a clearly fucked up thing to do and pretty harmful to everyone.

[–]elusive14 0 points1 point ago

The story is not about eating an apple. It's about how human nature came to exist. Adam and Eve were created with absolute innocence, like infants. They had no shame, greed, anger, selfishness, envy, etc. in their nature as we do today. Yet God expected them to obey his command as you would expect your child or your pet to obey yours. The apple tree was the source of that 'knowledge'.

So the question becomes: Why would God allow Adam and Eve to disobey him? Why even give them any rules that he knew they would eventually break?

Well, I think God understood that Adam and Eve were practically robots. They had no ability to be 'bad' people. They had no sinful desires that they needed to overcome. They had nothing in their nature driving them to do the wrong thing, besides maybe curiosity.

I think God realized that he wanted to reward humans that chose to be to be rewarded, rather than humans that were hardwired to. And for that to be possible, human nature had to be altered. Because without the ability to be a bad person, without that contrast, how can you be good? You wouldn't be good or bad. You would just be human.

[–]Soutine 0 points1 point ago

Nice. Would be better if human nature and monkey nature was more different though.

[–]euphratestiger 0 points1 point ago

So god gives us the option of sinning yet when we do, we get the most heinous and everlasting of punishments.

It's not really free will if i'm going to get punished for excising this free will, is it?

[–]we_are_not_sinners 1 point2 points ago

Good thing we're not sinners so we can avoid all your silly bullshit, Jesus!

[–]ChronosFT 7 points8 points ago

Children get how stupid this is. Only after years of brainwashing can they accept it as true. It is a testament to will power and self-confidence that one can overcome this brainwashing and dare to question it.

[–]pmb176 6 points7 points ago

The Prestige!

[–]Crossbowshootr 0 points1 point ago

I love that movie!

[–]painperdu 0 points1 point ago

It makes perfect sense if you're delusional and deny reality.

[–]mrjdoe 2 points3 points ago

Profit!

[–]intimacygel 4 points5 points ago

I think Jesus is missing a scumbag hat

[–]avelsdjur -1 points0 points ago

The sex still counts.

[–]readonlyuser 0 points1 point ago

The Aristocrats!

[–]Chuckwc 1 point2 points ago

God in the bible didn't create man and women with original sin, they got it after eating the apple and disobeying and lying to God.

[–]MFORCE310 0 points1 point ago

I believe they gained the knowledge of good and evil, which is ironic because if they could have differentiated between good and evil, they would have known not to eat the apple. Basically, it's nothing more than a silly, nonsensical story.

[–]boxdreper 0 points1 point ago

He didn't kill himself. He got himself killed. Right?

[–]bigpoppastevenson 0 points1 point ago

Jesus: the master accountant

[–]basement_kitteh -1 points0 points ago

But it doesn't end there with the picture.

After the Dog saved the humanity from the original sin by doing all that Jebus stuff, the original sin should be repaid, repaired, fixed etc, right? Time to move on? So why do the christians still do all that original sin and jebus saving stuff? "He died becuase of YOUR sins" - I'm pretty sure I was not even alive when this allegedly happened (and your religion does not believe in reincarnation)...

Anyway. If any of that ever would have actually happened, THE PROBLEM GOD CAUSED IN THE FIRST PLACE HAS BEEN FIXED. TIME TO MOVE ON...

[–]Souljapig1 0 points1 point ago

I want to say what I think is wrong with this as a christian and (trying to be as open minded as possible with most athiests only spewing hate towards christians) you guys tell me what you believe I have wrong. 1. God didn't condemn Adam and Eve to sin, but Satan tempted them and they, acting on their own will and not God's, sinned. 2. I don't believe that God and Jesus are the same "being". Why would God need to be reborn on Earth just to go back to Heaven, basically just duplicating himself? 3. Jesus didn't kill himself, he allowed himself to be killed as a sacrifice for our sins, not to God. He did this so are sins would not all send us to Hell, because we all sin. 4.Claiming that God and Jesus are the same person and then saying that that God/Jesus killed himself as a sacrifice to himself is something I dont get.

[–]euphratestiger 0 points1 point ago

Just to answer your points. 1. Read my post below and then you might see how he did, in essence, create them with original sin. Did god create Satan as well and allow him to be there in the garden? Or is Satan somehow more powerful than god that he can do things outside of god's will? This is the problem with omniscience and omnipotence. If god is these things then he MUST take responsibility for every action that has, is and will happen. 2. If you don't believe god and Jesus are the same thing then you just one of the millions of christians with a different idea of what god and Jesus are. Your question of why god would sacrifice himself, to himself is a valid question. It's just one of the many that lead to atheism; for me at least. 3. Kill himself or allow himself to be killed. Semantics. 4. It something none of us here get. But your religion espouses the idea.

[–]FireAndSunshine 0 points1 point ago

This has nothing to do with atheism. In fact, it's the exact opposite of atheism.

[–]ItsOnlyKetchup 0 points1 point ago

I swear this gets front page every time it's posted.

[–]Acid_Dolphin_Lover 0 points1 point ago

At least understand it if you're going to talk about it. According to Christian mythos, we weren't created with original sin. Adam and Eve ate that pomegranate and sinned. That was the sin that Jesus allegedly saved the world from.

[–]euphratestiger 0 points1 point ago

I like how he created Adam and Eve.

Creates them so they don't know right from wrong, then commands them not to eat the apple that gives them knowledge of right from wrong and then punishes them for disobeying his command because they didn't know that disobeying his command of eating the apple that gives the knowledge of right from wrong... was wrong.

[–]I_AM_PICKLE_LORD 0 points1 point ago

Nice trick, Jesus. Now see those 3rd World kids over there. Go feed them. Can you do that?

[–]Rafen325 0 points1 point ago

What the hell guys, I post this and it gets barely any upvotes, this schmuck posts it and he gets over a thousand. Wtf?

[–]OceanFace 1 point2 points ago

Yes, people who believe the bible are stupid, oh well.

[–]Breadbasketcase 1 point2 points ago

Not that it -really- detracts from the joke, but I believe the concept is that man was created perfect, then committed original sin by eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

How could a perfect man fall into sin? Furthermore, if it was possible for Jesus to be manifested in the flesh, why wasn't he created instead of Adam?

[–]Breadbasketcase 0 points1 point ago

I was merely pointing out an inaccuracy in the initial post, I never claimed to be a theological expert.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

You say the post has an inaccuracy. If God is omniscient that implies knowledge of past/present/future (Alpha and Omega). In creating beings who are capable of committing original sin isn't God essentially the creator of original sin?

[–]Breadbasketcase 0 points1 point ago

Well assuming his ability to know all things, one would have to expect an altered perception of reality, time and intent. Presumably God would not only be aware of original sin in his creation, but be aware that he would create that creature with that sin. In such a case he would already be aware of every action he will ever take, and is merely performing them in sequence as he understands they will play out.

So in short, Dr. Fate is the creator of original sin.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

I'm enjoying this discussion. I don't intend to be hostile in my responses. You say to expect an altered perception of reality. What is reality? My left eye doesn't see the same colors as my right eye. Doesn't every person create their own universe? If God is absolute, doesn't God perceive reality.

Edit: and by the last line I mean through definition of the word absolute doesn't God perceive what is absolutely real. That which is unaltered.

[–]Breadbasketcase 0 points1 point ago

Well, like I said, I'm no theologist. I can real only speak from personal perception, my knowledge of the bible, and a handful of a discussions with a delightfully intellectual bishop.

Ultimately, as many discussions of religion, it comes down to not a satisfying answer, but the reason why we cannot have an answer. In this case, we cannot perceive the past present and future simultaneously, nor can we understand the perception of someone that does. We also have to question the nature of free will. Assuming that a deity is omnipotent, can it stop itself from performing the actions it knows it will ultimately commit? In this circumstance, god is more powerless than an of us, because it already knows what it will do.

Or do we suggest the divergent timeline theory? Let's assume we do. God creates man, a being of great good and great evil (let's say the old guy just likes balance). He is aware of an infinite number of outcomes that this is capable of. Now given free will to do as we please, we pick the -one- outcome that leads to original sin. Well why doesn't god play by Murphy's law? Good question, and in this case one we will not ever really know because there is no consensus on what "original sin" really means. In the bible it is consumption of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Now I think it's safe to take the creation story, and thus, the fruit, as figurative, but the original intent still holds clear. Knowledge and understanding are original sin. But how? It can't be so simple, because we expressed basic tennants of both concepts early in the creation story. I like to think that's it's morality. As we developed a great understanding of ourselves and others, we began to perceive things as right or wrong. Animals don't do that - they just -do-. So we began to think of natural and instinctual tendencies as wrong or immoral. Because we understood what we did, we knew it was wrong, and continued to do so anyways. No longer blessed with innocence of ignorance, we used free will to commit our own self imposed sins, and no matter how imagined, this act left evil in us.

In this understanding of the bible, Jesus saved us from original sin by showing us redemption in death, and life. His act was more symbolic than actual, as it allowed us to believe that despite any evil things we may do, there is always forgiveness. This allows us to reconcile the concepts of our needs and our morals, and no longer perceive ourselves as "bad." Ultimately I wonder how effective tha message was, but again, the entire concept of religion is trying to understand that which is ungraspable, omnipotent, and divine.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

You use some terms that by definition don't make sense to me. Also when you use the pronoun 'we' I wonder by what means you have determined such statements to apply to everyone.

For example you say that we cannot perceive the past, present and future simultaneously, nor can we understand the perception of someone who does. However, you state earlier that you can really only speak from 'personal' perception. I wonder what the boundaries of your person are when the factors that constitute a body are in a constant state of change? Skipping that for now, by what means did you see that such consciousness cannot be experienced? Furthermore, by what means did you see that God was a deity? The definition of deity that I'm referring to is the one that defines deity as a supernatural being. By what means did you come to the understanding that God is a being? Beings are subject to existence or non-existence. From what I've read the bible never defines God as a being that can be inside or outside of 'things'. Nor does the bible apply the notion 'exist' or the notion 'does not exist' to God. Even if there are portions of the bible that state that God's voice is being heard from the 'Heavens', can it be discerned that the people hearing the voice aren't experiencing the 'Heavens' as their own body consciousness? Can it be discerned that the people don't have God consciousness?

I don't see how the term 'free will' makes any sense. Free means unconstrained, unfettered, or without bondage. The only way to be absolutely free is to be completely independent from any thing. How is this possible? There must be interdependency when things are in relation. One thing can only be defined through its relation to another. So when 1 [anything, even a thought, or any dualistic separation] arises so then does all other things. When good arises so does bad. With regard to the term 'free will', how it can be free when it is dependent on God as the giver of will. In other words your understanding of 'free' is fallacious because it implies a dualism when by definition freedom is non-dual.

The only way I can theorize that a 'person' can experience 'freedom' in the actual meaning of the word is if their body contains the whole universe. It seems that such a person would experience the relative within the absolute and at the same time their experience relatively would be absolute since there is nothing outside of their body. When the person is completely/fully/thoroughly realized in this manner it seems the notion of 'person' becomes a figure of speech. Naturally it seems the notion of 'God' outside or inside of oneself also becomes a figure of speech. It seems that the universe would be realized as unborn and undying and therefore the person would achieve freedom from birth and death. And in such a case it would seem that person would realize they are not only 'all of space' but also 'all of time'. And being all of time it seems they would be able to see what consciousness they experienced at any given point of time (ability to see past [lives] and future, or omniscience). How can a person experience such a state as this? This is what I find so interesting. This is the state which I think all the 'fully enlightened' people have experienced.

When you say it can't be so simple that knowledge and understanding are original sin my understanding seems to be in accord with yours. If the 'original sin' was defined even before it was committed how can the term original be applied to it? In other words, according to the story of creation, Adam and Eve had knowledge of 'good' and 'evil' before they ate the 'fruit' from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It seems that this is really just a story of how people go through life. However, I don't agree with your description of animal behavior. It certainly seems that even animals show signs of shame when they perceive things as wrong, which is obviously in contrast to behavior that they perceive as good. Check out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8ISzf2pryI.

Through your understanding of 'free will' and the terms 'good' and 'evil' your understanding of the Jesus story is also odd to me. If your will is really free then you are creating everything. Sin arising is accordingly sin of your own creation. Who can forgive you if you are creating your own sin? Who will you seek reconciliation with? How can death absolve a person of their sin? Furthermore, how can it absolve another of sin? Even symbolically it seems odd. In addition to this there is the apparent historical evidence that the ascension of Jesus was a later addition (~200 years) to the original gospels of bible. It seems like the story that Jesus even died on the cross is by and large a fabrication. You can check out one such documentary that presents this evidence at this link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsN4zE2yilo.

[–]Dry_martini_SHAKEN 0 points1 point ago

Paired with the fact that Christian teachings are that Jesus wasn't God, but the son of God, hence not impregnating a woman to give birth to himself and killing himself as a sacrifice to himself.

I dig the irony and the point out to the contradictions and all, but whenever I see the misconception that Christians are taught that Jesus is God, I have to facepalm.

[–]Soutine 3 points4 points ago

But then what's the thing about trinity? Isn't it that the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost is one?

[–]Dry_martini_SHAKEN 0 points1 point ago

Only a few denominations of Christianity follow that doctrine. For instance, Mormonism does NOT, while Catholicism DOES.

[–]gabriel_syme 3 points4 points ago

Only a few? The vast majority of Christians follow the dogma of the Trinity. The only one's that don't are para-Christian groups such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Latter Day Saints, and various non-denominational Christians. Furthermore, the orthodox (as well as historical) view of Christianity upholds the Trinity.

[–]Dry_martini_SHAKEN 0 points1 point ago

I'll give you that. Sorry, was raised around the mormons.

[–]laserdr -3 points-2 points ago

God like circle jerk if you ask me.

[–]laserdr 0 points1 point ago

Just cause I mention the word God I get down voted? How about if I posted Religion=Circle Jerk, Now give me your money!

[–]iwtwe 0 points1 point ago

Repost but I'm not even mad. Like seeing this again every once in a while

[–]owlsrule143 1 point2 points ago

Those kinds of reports are the best