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352
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Oh lance (imgur.com)

submitted ago by macnicoolEnter bike & year

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[–]anthonysjb2010 Giant TCR Advanced 35 points36 points ago

I'ld rather have not awarded than 'insert name of one of the riders at the back of the peloton that probably didn't dope here'

[–]conmimente2010 Cannondale CAAD 9 18 points19 points ago

This 100 times over. Even more so because there is absolutely no proof that the guys 20 spots back didn't dope either. The sport was(is) dirty and moving around who won doesn't change that.

let's all remember the the tour was invented to be, and still exists as, a massive publicity/advertising stunt. LCL, Skoda, Vittle, PMU, ect all got their brand out there like they do every year. Sure there is a significant body of racing and sport that surrounds the race, but at the end of the day not having a "winner" of the event means nothing.

[–]spinelssinvrtebrateMission Fixed Gear 5 points6 points ago

I wouldn't say it means nothing - I'd rather say it means little. That is until the sponsors pull out because attendance and audience shrink, and the event itself tarnishes the brand. Oh, that's basically now. Isn't Rabobank out?

[–]shapedy 2 points3 points ago

Agreed. This could be said about every sport: the winner doesn't matter, but it at least matters enough that interest must be maintained to keep the dollars rolling in.

[–]anthonysjb2010 Giant TCR Advanced 0 points1 point ago

Yeah Rabobank are out, but thankfully the other sponsors of the team are still on board.

Would be great if this happened.

[–]SirErlton 3 points4 points ago

Rabo is still sponsoring amateur cycling. Good for them.

[–]Counterkulture2011 Cervelo S2 Ultegra -1 points0 points ago

"Even more so because there is absolutely no proof that the guys 20 spots back didn't dope either. The sport was(is) dirty and moving around who won doesn't change that."

That's probably what Lance really has playing in his head when he makes the claim about the process being 'rigged', and 'witchhunt', etc. It's not that he's getting busted despite "300 clean tests" or whatever, but because he knows that everybody else was doing exactly what he was.

He knows, better than probably anybody else in cycling over the last two decades, how dirty and rotting to the core the fucking sport was, almost all the way through the peloton.

I still think he thoroughly deserves to be stripped off all his wins, and should be punished in every way possible.

[–]HowDid_This_GetHere2011 CAAD10 Dura Ace 112 points113 points ago

So what your saying is that Lance Armstrong is worse than World War II?

[–]BillMurrayismyFather 43 points44 points ago

That's the same logic that I'm using.

[–]ScentedMarker 29 points30 points ago

You guys are getting carried away. They both resulted in droughts of seven years.

This graphic shows that Lance is worse than World War I, and about as bad as World War II.

[–]beard-maketh-the-manr/ukbike 58 points59 points ago

Lance is literately worse than Hitler.

[–]BillMurrayismyFather 18 points19 points ago

Lance Armstrong caused the Holocaust.

[–]CountNoAccount2010 Felt New Belgium Cruiser 44 points45 points ago

You know who else caused millions of people to wear yellow ornaments?

[–]beard-maketh-the-manr/ukbike 4 points5 points ago

MY MOM!!!!!

[–]everred 5 points6 points ago

Lance did nothing wrong

[–]Counterkulture2011 Cervelo S2 Ultegra 0 points1 point ago

Hitler Did Nothing Wrong (compared to Lance).

[–]soloreddit'12 Roubaix SL3 Pro Red 10 points11 points ago

Are you actually in Liberia, or did you just confuse the Liberian flag with the American one when picking out your subreddit flair?

[–]HowDid_This_GetHere2011 CAAD10 Dura Ace 5 points6 points ago

Actually the Liberian people have quite a penchant for road biking.

[–]RedGoatSurpriseTrek 7.1FX 6 points7 points ago

That's because they don't have any cars.

[–]lockedbanana 0 points1 point ago

why is this getting downclicked?

[–]RedGoatSurpriseTrek 7.1FX 6 points7 points ago

Stereotypes man. They're hit or miss on the smaller sub-reddits.

It's strange that this sets people off, but the Hitler jokes are just fine.

[–]moncreyMain Street Broadway 1 point2 points ago

cause obviously there are cars in Liberia.

[–]BrownNote2010 Fuji Roubaix 1 point2 points ago

And... are you really from the United States Minor Outlying Islands?

[–]moncreyMain Street Broadway 0 points1 point ago

... apparently i dont know what the us flag looks like... or how rollover text works Edit: But im damn proud of my trike!

[–]sky4 -1 points0 points ago

"worse than hitler" has a better ring to it.

[–]mandeer_ -1 points0 points ago

hahaha, literally worse than hitler.

[–]midnitebr -2 points-1 points ago

I think what he means is that Lance Armstrong left a gap on the Tour de France just like the Wars did.

[–]ivorjawa 13 points14 points ago

"Thanks for all the money you earned us, asshole!"

[–]YAYBIKES 14 points15 points ago

And brining the sport of cycling back into main stream America. Jerk!

[–]mongaloidMS Oppy C5 2012 10 points11 points ago

Why aren't there more stripped titles here?

[–]ebotto13 -1 points0 points ago

I wish I could upvote this more than once. Lance was one of the cleaner riders out there. Sure there was a fair amount of controversy over it, but every time lance agreed to a test, and he tested negative every time (except the cortisone incident). All i'm saying is at that point in time, cheating in cycling was so prevalent that it really wouldn't matter if Lance cheated or not because most of the competition was too.

[–]Yellow_Curry2011 Trek 2.3 71 points72 points ago

So why does Ulrich still have his? And what about Contador? Weren't all those guys busted for Doping? I mean seriously what the fuck. Either ban them all or don't.

[–]numberthirtythree 17 points18 points ago

Bullshit. You can't strip someones 1997 title because he was doping in 2005. There's evidence that Lance was doping every single year that he won. That's why he's losing all his titles. Contador has lost his 2010 title because of his positive Clenbuterol sample.

[–]tubadeedoo 5 points6 points ago

What about Indurain? He won his titles when EPO was available over the counter!

[–]j7f3 3 points4 points ago

People have compared his times to those of other riders and there is compelling statistical evidence that he was on something too.

From Indurain on to 2010 or so, there should be one blank hole.

[–]numberthirtythree 0 points1 point ago

What about him?

[–]tubadeedoo 0 points1 point ago

Indurain raced during the easiest era to dope on EPO. It's incredibly likely that he doped.

[–]Yellow_Curry2011 Trek 2.3 13 points14 points ago

But do they have the same level of proof on Lance as they do on Contador for example? I mean don't get me wrong, I think Lance is a disgusting cheat who's continued lying only makes him look worse. But, I still go back and say that if the dude was doping in 2005 to win, he probably was doping back in 1997, especially when we know now how pretty must the entire peleton was doped up back then.

I don't know, I just wish they would take the same hard stance on everyone. You want to stop doping. You send the hard line. You get caught doping once, and Bam, say goodbye to all of your titles and wins. I mean if we can't trust you on this time you won - who's to say you didn't cheat all the other times.

[–]soloreddit'12 Roubaix SL3 Pro Red 9 points10 points ago

Yeah, but Armstrong never once tested positive, whereas Contador did. There's evidence that they both doped regularly, yet Armstrong has had all of his wins vacated, whereas Contador, who was actually caught with a positive test, has not.

I get it, they're trying to send a message and rally against the biggest and most highly-organized cheating system in the sport, but I don't think that logic flies. Contador should have both of his wins vacated.

[–]mecax 3 points4 points ago

Yeah, but Armstrong never once tested positive

False. He tested positive during the '99 Tour.

[–]ndotTarmac SL3, All-City Big Block 0 points1 point ago

Usually when you say "Tour" you mean Tour de France, but the test result you are referring to was a race in Switzerland.

[–]soloreddit'12 Roubaix SL3 Pro Red 2 points3 points ago

Okay, I stand corrected on that one, I forgot about the cortisone incident. I was referring to EPO/testosterone in my post. Duly noted.

[–]RidePlanet2012 Specialized CruX Expert 0 points1 point ago

This is False. Lance has tested positive. A number of his '99 Tour samples tested positive for EPO in 2005, albeit out of regular testing procedure (they were being tested against a new detection system, and a journalist was able to do the math to figure out whose sample was whose). He also tested positive in '99 for Cortisone, but managed to magic up a prescription.

There are other stories of positive results being swept under the rug by the UCI and others.

[–]numberthirtythree -1 points0 points ago

No, you don't get it. There's evidence that Lance was doping every single year that he won. Nobody's saying "oh, looks like Lance doped in March 2003, let's take all of his titles away." There's evidence (EVIDENCE) that he was doping the whole time. That's why the UCI can't do anything but take all his titles away. Not to send a message. They've been sending messages for 20 years now.

[–]soloreddit'12 Roubaix SL3 Pro Red 1 point2 points ago

If you don't think Contador was doping in 2007, you're being incredibly naive. I never said Lance didn't dope every year, I've read the USADA report, he doped...so did Ullrich, Contador, Riis, and Pantani, just to name a few. Thevenet has openly admitted to doping with heavy corticosteroid usage for years, yet his wins in 75 & 77 stand.

Contador's clenbuterol test was not caused by a "bad piece of veal" any more than Armstrong's cortisone-positive was caused by topical cream for a saddle sore. If you're going to vacate someone for doping, then you might as well vacate the rest too.

[–]numberthirtythree -3 points-2 points ago

If you don't think Contador was doping in 2007, you're being incredibly naive.

IT'S NOT ABOUT THINKING IT'S ABOUT EVIDENCE. EEEEEVVIIIIIIDDEEEEEENNNNCCCEEEE.

If you still don't get that, I give up.

[–]absolutsyd 1 point2 points ago

Why not? Once a cheat, always a cheat. That might make people stop fucking cheating!

[–]Mattho1970s Super Mondia | 2012 Haibike Noon SL 0 points1 point ago

You can't strip someones 1997 title because he was doping in 2005.

I would...

[–]Sect932012 Scott Foil -2 points-1 points ago

Contador got 1 TDF and 1 Giro win removed (along with some others), and he wasnt banned for directly doping, but for having bad substances in his bloodvein. Conclusion was that he was contaminated and didnt dope on purpose.

Ullrich wasnt caught doped though have admitted it since. Same with my fellow countryman Bjarne Riis who won the 1996 TDF. he never got caught but revealed it later on. Still winner of 1996 TDF, because he chose to reveal it himself.

Lance still denys everything and that makes him punished, since he isnt trustworthy still.

Its like all his former teammates still active only gets 6 months ban, and not the normal 2 years, because they have being honest unlike Lance.

[–]noger 17 points18 points ago

it's official. he is worse than hitler.

[–]Mattho1970s Super Mondia | 2012 Haibike Noon SL 0 points1 point ago

As bad as Hitler. Don't be so hard on him.

[–]ocdad 3 points4 points ago

Should have called it "World Doping Wars" to stay consistent.

[–]SnortingCoffee 3 points4 points ago

If we also scratch the 2nd place wins in 2006 & 2010, that means that during the 12 year span from 1999-2010, the tour was actually won a total of 3 times. Two of those three wins were by Alberto Contador, a one time teammate of Armstrong's who was busted for doping the year after his second tour win.

[–]Diffie-HellmanCustom Keith Anderson, Ciocc Designer '84, 1973 Raleigh Supebe 4 points5 points ago

Of course ol' Greg would never dope. It's not like he rode after being peppered with a shotgun or anything.

[–]Elugelab 0 points1 point ago

Godwin's Law

[–]moncreyMain Street Broadway 2 points3 points ago

Id like to see him get the upper hand by starting a drug-fueled-rider-only race through the rockies

[–]--frymaster-- 5 points6 points ago

my question is: why the hell are pantani and riis allowed to stand?

seems more and more to me like there was an entire generation of cyclists that doped... and the everybody decided to make armstrong the scapegoat for it instead of addressing the problem.

[–]velocom -1 points0 points ago

Armstrong, wasn't a scapegoat for the problem. Armstrong was the problem.

[–]groggyboyMercier Kilo TT, Tour du Quebec, Finelli RC-350 0 points1 point ago

I strongly doubt that one man was the problem for a sporting event that involved hundreds of athletes and many more hundreds of support staff. And how many corporate sponsors, and millions if not billions of dollars...

No, Armstrong was a scapegoat.

I don't like the man, and I don't like what he did, but blaming him for a systemic problem is to purposely ignore the whole picture. Blaming him for everything only tarnishes a sport that needs more than just a little tarnishing.

[–]doags 0 points1 point ago

I agree - sort of - I think he's being made a scapegoat, but with justification. He won the most tours and made a lot of cash out of road racing for almost a decade but all through sophisticated doping. Given his influence in the peloton he carried on making it OK to dope, which is shouldn't be and hopefully the culture will change from it's OK to win by using PEDs or doping to getting yourself ostracised from the peloton (not mention banned) if you're doping.

[–]Cryptic0677 6 points7 points ago

Why haven't they vacated other dopers'? I'm all for taking out the cheaters, but at least do it fairly and not make it a one man witch hunt.

[–]myotheralt 0 points1 point ago

It should say Redacted, because it was awarded, but has now been voided.

[–]spoonybard326 0 points1 point ago

Lance Armstrong is literally worse than Gavrilo Princip

[–]rogue780 -1 points0 points ago

Wait. They proved he doped?

[–]SirErlton 2 points3 points ago

Yes. With 100% certainty. Spend 4 hours reading the report or just take my word, because I read it all and the evidence is beyond cavil.

[–]rogue780 0 points1 point ago

Was it the blood doping thing, or something else? I'm not going to read the report tbh.

[–]Thedosius 4 points5 points ago

Both.

[–]franklin_stubbsEnter bike & year -1 points0 points ago

Isn't is common knowledge that everyone who even comes close to winning the Tour de France has doped? And honestly, does anyone care about pro cycling? I love riding my bike, but watching pro cycling on TV is stupid. Just like I love golfing, bowling, shooting pool and playing darts, but I'm not watching those boring ass sports on TV. I couldn't name a single person who raced in the Tour de France this year...

[–]redfiche2012 Specialized Secteur Comp -1 points0 points ago

How many tours would Indurain have won.

[–]ScentedMarker 1 point2 points ago

Five, same as before. Indurain hadn't been on the podium since '95, four years before Lance won his first tour in '99.

If Lance Armstrong had never been born it wouldn't have changed the number of wins Indurain got, but it would have definitely changed his legacy. He would have been alongside Eddy (maybe slightly behind) as the greatest Tour de France champion of all time, instead of playing second fiddle to Armstrong.

[–]bushizPottymouth 1 point2 points ago

indurian wouldn't have been alongside eddy, because eddy is some weird myth at this point. He'd be on the same tier as lemond (who could have been alongside eddy, but then he got a spine full of birdshot)

[–]mrsimmons 2 points3 points ago

I would say that Indurain is more alongside Hinault than Lemond. Lemond didn't win enough times to be included I wouldn't say. Don't get me wrong; Lemond was great, but I don't think he's on the same tier as the other five time champions.

[–]bushizPottymouth -3 points-2 points ago

keep in mind that the reason lemond didn't win 5 (or more) was because he got shot point blank with a shotgun

[–]random_seedTrek Madone 5.2 -2 points-1 points ago

Would could maybe perhaps but

[–]redfiche2012 Specialized Secteur Comp -1 points0 points ago

The implication was that Indurain was the last clean cyclist, and that doping by others hastened his retirement.

[–]nojusticenpeace -1 points0 points ago

I'm not a die hard cyclist, but I always remember watching the Tour and he would rarely, if ever, be in the top 100. then a few years later I heard we won 3 in a row and always thought it was fishy

[–]abababababababab -1 points0 points ago

Yes, well. You have no idea what you are talking about.

[–]nojusticenpeace 0 points1 point ago

riiiggghhht. this would be like the worst NBA player all of the sudden winning 7 scoring titles in a row, makes perfect sense. also makes sense in light of Armstrong stepping down. Apparently I was right in my intuition.

[–]nojusticenpeace 0 points1 point ago

i like how you deleted your comment. I watched every Tour De France for about 5-6 years during the 90s, I don't think that would qualify as 'knowing nothing'

[–]BuckLongcut 0 points1 point ago

He won four TdF stages, 93-95, before his cancer treatment in 1996.

[–]ocarinamaster64 -1 points0 points ago

Lance Armstrong went to my high school. I used to brag about that.

[–]nonviolentprotestor 0 points1 point ago

used to?

[–]myotheralt 0 points1 point ago

He still does, but he used to, too.

[–]tuffhawk13 1 point2 points ago

That may be the first time somebody bragged about going to high school in Plano.

[–]Vlayden -4 points-3 points ago

So I'm really trying not to stir the pot here, but did Lance actually admit to doping? This seems pretty ridiculous and out of hand to me, but I tend not to follow this stuff.

[–]Janus-Marine 10 points11 points ago

No. He has only stopped defending his innocence in court.

[–]wolfesquire2011 Specialized Allez -3 points-2 points ago

This is why we can't have nice things!

[–]FourthTimeLucky -4 points-3 points ago

Imagine a world where Joseba Beloki had won a Tour, and Jan Ullrich had won four...

[–]PedalPedalPedal 18 points19 points ago

Jan Ullrich the doper? Like Bjarne Riis, the doper? Bad move vacating the wins, if you ask me. They should just put an asterisk on the 90''s and early 00's and move on.

[–]FourthTimeLucky 1 point2 points ago

I think you're probably right, but people won't be happy whatever they do.

[–]gdtau 0 points1 point ago

If you start crossing off the dopers then Carlos Sastre starts to look a lot better in retrospect than he did at the time.

One oddity of the UCI statement is that it left Armstrong with his 3rd placing in the 2009 TdF. Maybe they'd just forgot it in all the excitement.

The general consensus gives two more TdFs to Evans, one more to Wiggins, and a complete mess in the earlier years.

[–]whiskey062011 Cinelli Saetta, 2007 243, 1998 Cove Stiffee 0 points1 point ago

Ullrich has said he doesn't want them. Also, Ullrich never tested positive (well except for ecstasy LOL), he was caught with bags of blood though.

[–]PedalPedalPedal 16 points17 points ago

Is "never tested positive" the standard now?

[–]whiskey062011 Cinelli Saetta, 2007 243, 1998 Cove Stiffee 2 points3 points ago

Well I left out the part where they found bags of blood. But whenever people proclaim Lance's innocence I usually retort with that. I don't think Ulle is innocent, but I still like him a lot.

[–]ScentedMarker 2 points3 points ago

It does seem silly to apply the "never tested positive" defense in this particular context.

[–]midnitebr 2 points3 points ago

Ullrich was likely as much of a doper as Lance Armstrong was.

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