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top 200 commentsshow all 370

[–]hovernozzle 262 points263 points ago

Atheist here, and I'm tired of seeing this. It simply is not reasonable.

If a person genuinely believes their faith will provide the highest possible quality of life to their child, of course they are going to raise their child within that faith.

Posts like this demonstrate a stunning lack of empathy. Without the humility and compassion to see this problem from another point of view, you will never solve it. If you want to change people's minds, start by listening to them. You don't have to agree, but you should at least try to understand.

[–]dogdayafternoon 34 points35 points ago

I call bullshit on this too but for a different reason. Your job as a parent is not to "let your children develop their own damn opinions." Your job is to school them. To raise them. And to guide them. A part of that entails instilling in them your values.

If my child starts to believe in an Iron Age sky God, due to the fact that exposure to the Abrahamic religions is ubiquitous in Western society, you can bet your bottom dollar that I am going to have a chat with them and try to instil my logic and atheism within them. Just as I would should they pick up racist or misogynistic beliefs from friends or whatever other influences they will be exposed to as they grow up.

Post like this really mean to say, "let your children develop their own damn opinions, as long as they are secular humanist in nature."

[–]flatline33 1 point2 points ago

... you can bet your bottom dollar that I am going to have a chat with them and try to instil my logic and atheism within them ...

The difference is that you don't have to "instill atheism", you simply have to teach them how to approach questions rationally, using the scientific method to formulate hypothesis, test those hypothesis, and use the results to produce falsifiable theories.

By that simple measure, there's no rational evidence for religion, no mechanism by which its existence can be tested, and thus, no rational argument for belief.

No 'isms' other than science required.

[–]juggernaut1107 5 points6 points ago

Agreed, what atheists call "brain-washing" their kids is not always true. I'm Christian, and I do in fact believe that parents shouldn't be feeding creationism to their children, but to a certain extent. Creationism has long been proven faulty, and I accepted that quickly.

But when parents want their children to know that there IS a God or there ISN'T a God, that is 100% their business and more importantly, their freedom. Especially when they do it with the best of intentions. Religious parents want their children to grow in faith and eventually end up in heaven, while non-religious parents don't want their children wasting time with what they see as nonsense.

Both sides are extremely reasonable, and neither side should be insisting the other is wrong or immoral.

[–]kyreannightblood 5 points6 points ago

My mom tried to raise me Christian. She ended up ruining my life and almost losing me to suicide.

I'm fine with teaching kids about religion, but if you tell them atheists are horrible people, or that freethinkers deserve horrible treatment, I see it is child abuse. Of both the kid and their peers.

[–]juggernaut1107 1 point2 points ago

Well, as you can clearly see above, I thoroughly support telling your kids that atheists are horrible people. I also emphasized the importance of treating anyone with separate beliefs than theirs in a horrible way.

[–]kyreannightblood 1 point2 points ago

Not saying you are, just saying that it's how a lot of Christians treat their religion: an excuse to act like smug assholes.

[–]juggernaut1107 -1 points0 points ago

You can label them as Christians or you could recognize them as humans. Everyone is that way. Atheists, Christians, Muslims, Mormons, just fucking everyone. Humans are naturally assholes.

[–]Blarfles 9 points10 points ago

Raising your child to follow a set of laws that may have been relevant 5,000 years ago in order to ascend to paradise is far from "extremely reasonable."

[–]juggernaut1107 6 points7 points ago

Sorry, I was talking very general. I also believe that teaching your children to hate all of religion and anyone who is religious is far from "extremely reasonable", and it would be quite silly to claim that nobody has done that.

I'll be sure to clarify when I make a generalization from now on.

[–]bstone99 5 points6 points ago

I certainly don't think blarfles said to teach children to hate religion. (He/She did make a point though, using ancient texts that are no longer relevant doesn't make sense. Religion is not necessary to be a moral person). But you made that statement on your own. Let's not exaggerate here. I'm not going to teach my children to hate religion. I'll have them figure it out with the evidence that's out there. When they're old enough, if they want to read the bible and buy into that, then whatever. And if they read all the books that I have at my house about evolution, the history of religion, the cosmos, and decide to go the atheist/agnostic/secular route then great.

[–]fuzzydunloblaw 3 points4 points ago

In general, it's irrational and counter-productive to teach children to believe in supernatural things like deities for which there exists zero objective supporting evidence. They aren't two equally extremely reasonable positions.

To be clear, I'm not at all advocating anyone teaching their children to hate anyone that is religious. That would be odd and seems more the domain of many theists who instill a disgust for even the word atheist at a young age. Rather, it's teaching them a healthy skeptical and critical view of outlandish and unsupported claims that a theist puts forth.

[–]youreafuckinghero 4 points5 points ago

Yeah. And also, it'd be sweet to have a pentacle brand from when you were a baby.

[–]drn8 7 points8 points ago

Thank you. This is honestly one of the most inane posts I have ever seen on this subreddit, and sadly that is saying a lot.

[–]dntptpnchlynintitle 1 point2 points ago

true, you shouldnt put the punchline in the title

[–]KoranThumper 5 points6 points ago

You're probably right, but for me that isn't the point. I've found that most religious people are not influenced by rational arguments. Although posts like this might not change anybody's mind about religion, its still nice to fume about the evils of indoctrinating children with religious dogma.

[–]usarmy973 2 points3 points ago

That's because religion is not based on logic or reason. It's based on faith. So logic and reason are useless to use when talking to the religious folk. I agree it's nice to fume about the evils of indoctrinating children.

[–]JonnyRichter 2 points3 points ago

My roommates are Christian and they believe firmly that teaching their future kids that their religion is correct is the only way to go; the only way to ensure that they will be saved. They are from Jerusalem, though, so their beliefs are a little more extreme than my more liberal Christian friends. As an atheist, I believe I should teach my children as much as I can and let them make up their mind, but that's only because I don't think it'll do them any harm in an "afterlife" no matter what they believe. Religions, however, believe faith is the only way to be saved, so it's understandable that they would want to make the decision for their children.

[–]ThatIsMyHat 2 points3 points ago

Remember: it's only indoctrination when they're teaching their kids something you don't like. Otherwise it's just education.

[–]bleedingheartsurgery 1 point2 points ago

would you teach your child that evolution is a scientific theory? or that its false?

[–]bleedingheartsurgery -2 points-1 points ago

Many Muslims think that Islam will give their daughter the best quality of life.

To that I say fuuuuuuuuuck yoooouuuuuuuuu!

[–]ilikefruitydrinks 15 points16 points ago

It's not interesting for the media to show the peaceful muslims. It's not good TV. What I'm saying is travel, see the world. Most muslims are peaceful people.

[–]Omnius 5 points6 points ago

You don't even have to travel that far i live in OH and our development has about 6 Muslim families living in it. I don't know the adults that well (communication problems they don't speak English well) but their kids are really close with my daughter and everyone of them are great little kids, well behaved, respectful, and obviously full of joy. That doesn't happen from shitty parenting, abuse, or neglect. They (the kids) do talk about "god" a lot around my daughter so that's been tricky but worth it.

I used to have an issue with all the Muslims (so small of me) when i finally quit being a dumb ass and let my daughter start to mingle with the street i realize just how wrong i was or more importantly how wrong the TV had made me.

I wasn't racist but based on what is forced into your head all day every day its easy to think that Muslim daughters are being passed around, abused, and generally treated like garbage. Given that (sad and just plain incorrect) point of view i had made some poor choices.

TLDR; Talk to your neighbors. Still be cognoscente with what other people are feeding to your children s brains.

[–]AFewSecondsAgoDouche 1 point2 points ago

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

You may like fruity drinks, but just who the fuck are you to bring logic into this circlejerk? SURE they don't know any muslims and SURE they don't know much about Islam, but who the fuck do you think you are to tell them they can't insult it and those who follow it with seriously gross generalisations based on the actions of a very tiny minority of the billions involved?

Fuck you, that's who. Logic, rationality and realism has no place in /r/atheism, cunt.

[–]frobischer 2 points3 points ago

When I was young and impressionable I dated a Muslim girl. I treated her well and was respectful to her father. He treated me like one of the family and was wonderful. Her mother and older brother were more strict and didn't want her having anything to do with a non-Muslim, no matter how nice or respectful I was. The brother took me aside and showed me this verse:

"And do not marry Al-Mushrikat (idolatresses, etc.) till they believe (worship Allah Alone). And indeed a slave woman who believes is better than a (free) Mushrikah (idolatress, etc.), even though she pleases you. And give not (your daughters) in marriage to Al-Mushrikun till they believe (in Allah Alone) and verily, a believing slave is better than a (free) Mushrik (idolater, etc.), even though he pleases you. Those (Al- Mushrikun) invite you to the Fire, but Allah invites (you) to Paradise and Forgiveness by His Leave, and makes His Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to mankind that they may remember."

Muslims vary tremendously. Many are wonderful people coming from an ancient and highly advanced culture. Many are supremely kind and compassionate. Then again there are some bad apples.

[–]Iron_tiger_of_flames 0 points1 point ago

In fact Islam gives woman more rights than you would think, but you don't think.

[–]SiS-Shadowman 4 points5 points ago

Please do elaborate.

[–]david71119 -5 points-4 points ago

I belive that if I raise my child to be a democratic rather then a republican, she will have a higher quality of life. Is that reasonable? No!

Religion, just like politics, just like anything in life, is something where it is decided depending on the way you think. The way you think will change throughout your life, and to 'intrude' in a major way to the way they think is wrong, SPECIALLY in a faith-based system. Of course, your children WILL BE influenced by their parents, but that's natural and you aren't 'forcing' them into something, THEY choose to believe in what you believe because they WANTED to do that. It's not right depite what your arguments are. Period.

[–]MrBrawn 11 points12 points ago

I went to Catholic school and had religious parents. I am an atheist. For the most part, children will believe what they want. They do not immediately accept what their parents tell them.

[–]Nezperdia 6 points7 points ago

If this is true, then how come countries like saudi arabia is mostly muslims, and countries like mexico is mostly Christian? Would't religions be distributed pretty evenly if children are not influenced in their believes by their parents?

For the most part, children follow the religion of the parents. Which is the opposite of what you claimed.

[–]Calypso440 2 points3 points ago

You're right: "Finally, parent's own religiosity may influence children's developing religiosity and spirituality, which may in turn affect other aspects of well-being . Parents both model and directly teach religious behavior and beliefs, thus passing these beliefs on to their children, and they may actively manage their children's lives so as to expose them to a social network with shared religious beliefs and values (Cornwall, 1989 ; Sherkat & Ellison, 1999). A number of studies have reported significant concordance between parents' and children's religious beliefs and denominational affiliation (e .g. Benson et al ., 1989 ; Francis & Gibson, 1993 ; King, et al .,1997 ; Miller, et al ., 1997; Okagaki & Bevis, 1999)."

Edit: Here is the source: http://www.childtrends.org/Files/Child_Trends-2002_01_01_FR_ReligionSpiritAdol.pdf

[–]Thunder_Dan 1 point2 points ago

Maybe if the conquistadors were half Christian and half Islamic. There aren't many temples and what not in Mexico because it wasn't brought and shoved down the throats of the people. Christianity was a couple cenuries ago.

I also diasgree. Children will think, largely, what their parents tell them and teach them. As they grow and learn to think critically (hopefully), they may throw off the shackles of their religion and think for themselves.

[–]Dassnissen 0 points1 point ago

How come religious beliefs are inherited 90 % of the time then?

[–]Lykoaster 1 point2 points ago

Really? Because I fail to see the statistic that envelops every human being on planet Earth.

[–]Dassnissen 0 points1 point ago

Well if we need that statistic to make a claim, there aren't going to be many claims made. Including "children won't immediately accept what their parents tell them"

[–]Lykoaster 0 points1 point ago

Which is why statistics are stupid 84% of the time.

[–]eloquentnemesis 0 points1 point ago

Come on. The easiest way to turn a child atheist is sending them to catholic school.

[–]LinkCreedZ 0 points1 point ago

I learned to make my own decisions and shape my personality a second time when I was almost 12. I guess I was an early-bird in puberty because in my late 11 year old years I had a huge boost in thinking about the world to myself. I read a website that involved anti-school and anarchy and I began to deny what I originally thought and started again with the old repeated "why" question. I hope I'm understood some day even though I no longer care what anyone thinks of me.

[–]david71119 -2 points-1 points ago

I also was created in a Christian family (although not a much devout one, we didn't go to church at all, with rare exceptions), but I turned agnostic at 9, atheist at 12 basically. We are one of the few that 'made it' don't forget that there are only a small percentage of atheist people in the world, and that's due to children not beeing able to think for themselves.

[–]RANDOMjackassNAME 4 points5 points ago

I have an honest question, what if you have a kid and he just happen to turn religious? Would you support him and let him choose a side?

[–]david71119 1 point2 points ago

yes, I would support him AS LONG as he didn't deny science and wasn't homophobic or some of those issues where people use "because of God's will" as an argument, that's hypocritical.

[–]RANDOMjackassNAME 2 points3 points ago

I consider myself catholic and I have some real close gay friends, I do not believe god hates anyone, nor launches holy wars, that is men lying to get get people to follow them, I, probably as much as you despite religious fanatics that claim god hates anyone, or do injustices supposedly in name of religion, but you argue much like them,

yes, I would support him AS LONG as he didn't deny science

Sounds like a die hard religious dad that would support his child AS LONG he doesn't deny his religion.

[–]Thunder_Dan 1 point2 points ago

What do you mean by support? Support their view or continue to love them no matter what?

[–]RANDOMjackassNAME 2 points3 points ago

Both of course, it just seems to me that most atheists wouldn't support a religious child, when at the same time complain die hard religious families wouldn't support an atheist son/daughter.

[–]Calypso440 1 point2 points ago

I'm also an atheist who was raised Christian. I went to Catholic school, and my religious education made that a very painful and extremely fearful transition for me. I knew that I didn't really 'believe' there was a god, but I also knew I was making the losing bet in Pascal's wager and 14 years in the church made that a very scary prospect. I'm ok with teaching religious values, but the 'deny God and go to hell' part I think is really harmful in terms of kids being able to think for themselves.

[–]nrokreffefp 0 points1 point ago

Feel you bro. I was indoctrinated on Pascal's Wager until I was about 12, because I never had any inclination towards belief.

[–]DukeGod -2 points-1 points ago

Thankfully. If every kid took their parent's opinion there'd be no atheists after all. I was also born in Christian Family, and went through all of Catechism (All those Saturday mornings QQ)

Still chose to be an Atheist even while going to it. Mostly because I never realized I had become an atheist, I lived part of my life as one and never noticed...

[–]kipchak 3 points4 points ago

If every kid took their parent's opinion there'd be no atheists after all.

pardon

[–]junkeee999 6 points7 points ago

Religion is not like politics. Religion is a whole lifestyle, not just an opinion or which button to push in a voting booth. It's natural that parents will raise the child in their own lifestyle.

As the kid grows up they'll learn to think for themselves, as I did, and as probably a majority of r/atheism did. A religious upbringing is not necessarily a brainwashing for life.

[–]I_am_God_seriously -1 points0 points ago

Yes, but it's still not a good thing, they should be given the decision from the get-go. Look at the Westboro church. Look at the kids who've grown up to be as fucked up as their parents. A few of them have left, yet the majority continue to believe in that bullshit. If they were raised in my family they wouldn't have those views, it's as simple as that.

My parents were somewhat religious when I was younger, they are no longer but they gave me the freedom to decide for myself and I think it worked out pretty well.

[–]junkeee999 0 points1 point ago

You use a pretty extreme example. 99% of the country, religious or otherwise would not raise their children in the manner of Westboro church.

Most religious upbringing is along the lines of, go to church, go to Sunday school, say your prayers, be nice to people. It's not exactly going to brand someone for life. A child will still do what they want with their life for the most part.

[–]bleedingheartsurgery -1 points0 points ago

Here's how i see it. If religion plays any type of part in your life, beyond physically going to church/praying. When you turn 16/17 you will Google your religion, and booooom, up will come all of the religious debates online, and every atheist counter argument. The kid will be able to make up their mind then, if the parent decides to be a Dick and indoctrinate them. So I'm not worried... Yes there will be tons who can't break their shackles, but there will also be tons and tons who can decide for themselves even before they become a young adult.

[–]ab2445 -1 points0 points ago

That is most likely why some religions forbid use of the internet. To keep their members from leaving it. http://www.realclearreligion.org/2012/05/17/orthodox_jews_unite_against_the_internet_247882.html

[–]Uberninjaa[!] 0 points1 point ago

OOOOOOOOOOOR all the porn?

[–]Omikron -1 points0 points ago

The way you think isn't something that develops independent of how you are raised and who raises you.

[–]Rs90 -1 points0 points ago

So what you're saying is that they're wrong and you're right? Sound familiar

[–]david71119 1 point2 points ago

But I'm saying that on a basis of LOGIC, REASON and FACTS and that makes me 99.9% right. That's different from FAITH, wether you downvote, cry or try to say the contrary.

[–]ALLCAPSASSHOLE 0 points1 point ago

YOU'RE FUCKING STUPID

[–]blakgodaftermath 1 point2 points ago

I agree with what hovernozzle said. You can't possibly compare one's long standing religious beliefs- which for many dictate not only what happens in this life, but in the afterlife as well- to political affiliation. Whether or not you agree with their belief structure, you have to acknowledge they are doing what they feel is best for their child's well being. If you think it's even remotely possible for someone who strongly believes in a moral structure, whether it not it is based on superstition or proven fact, to separate not incorporate it into child rearing, you're doing yourself a disservice.

[–]jakegittes513 0 points1 point ago

for someone who strongly believes in a moral structure

I wouldn't describe religious people that way.

[–]Edge35 0 points1 point ago

Thank you. So nice to see an atheist who understands this. A parent's job is to teach their kids. We pass our beliefs, or lack of beliefs, on to our children. It is impossible to do otherwise.

[–]MrFilovirus 0 points1 point ago

Some are capable of giving their children objective upbringing, some are not. My parents never spoke about religion to me, not about politics, and first time I learned of those things was in school and I was somewhat old enough to determine what was fact and what was fiction. Alas, I remained a nonbeliever and still am.

[–]elbruce 1 point2 points ago

Circlejerker here, and I'm here to oppose any opposition of religious indoctrination.

[–]IceUck -1 points0 points ago

THIS.

Why do so many people start the conversation by insulting and misrepresenting people with opposing views?

It's like when you want political change, so you start by blowing up a few school buses full of kids. Way to make sure that even people that agree with your goals will be motivated to ensure that you don't get what you want.

[–]excommunicated 0 points1 point ago

This whole damn subreddit is an apologist mess.

[–]omphalos008 8 points9 points ago

Why is there a Jesus fish and a cross?

[–]rjcarr 3 points4 points ago

Just a guess ... christian protestant and catholic?

EDIT: thanks CountPanda!

EDIT2: according to wikipedia the fish was used prior to protestantism ... so, not sure.

[–]CountPanda 8 points9 points ago

You mean Protestant and Catholic. Catholics are Christians. They are the original organized Christians. They are not "sort of" Christians, like I have to keep arguing with people. It's like saying Dogs are "sort of" mammals. They are a type of mammal. Catholics are a type of Christian.

[–]Dassnissen 2 points3 points ago

You have to explain this to people?!

[–]CountPanda 0 points1 point ago

SOOOO many people say this verbatim "well yeah, they're Christian, but they're different, it's not the same."

[–]monkey_gamer 0 points1 point ago

I thought that for a long time. I never knew that the word protestant existed, just that we were the Christians and the Catholics were Catholics, not true Christians.

[–]rjcarr 1 point2 points ago

Good point, thanks for the correction. So do you think the two symbols were to differentiate that?

[–]rgthrowa 1 point2 points ago

Jesus fish actually indicates a certain sect (nowadays, before it was a symbol for the original christian groups)- I think it is for the evangelical or born again thing. The cross is more traditional and perhaps a stronger symbol of jesus (rather than god's blessing) and therefore catholic.

[–]resistingsimplicity 13 points14 points ago

It is literally impossible to raise a child and not influence their belief system. If you raise them atheist or agnostic you are influencing them just as much as someone raising a child in a Christian household. The "let them choose when they're older" argument is bullshit. A child in an atheist household is just as influenced by their parents as someone raised in a religious household, it doesn't give them any more freewill to choose than being brought up with a religion does. Yes, once you reach a certain age, you are going to question what you grew up with no matter what it was, but that has nothing to do with parenting style. Get a new argument.

[–]kite789 27 points28 points ago

As an Atheist, I dislike this message.

I was raised in a Christian home and taken to church every Sunday and Wednesday. As I aged and became educated, I learned and here I am today. As strange as this sounds, I appreciate the learning experience. I know exactly why Christianity doesn't appeal to me and why I don't agree with it. A child needs guidance. You can't send them into the world with nothing to base their ideas on. Even Atheist parents will give their children logic.

My point to you is that our message as subscribers to opinions and beliefs (Atheists and Christians alike) should be to coexist and avoid promoting hate.

[–]ItsHammerTime 7 points8 points ago

This. The challenge is to provide children with structure while still being open to whatever they become.

I have a very similar background. Sunday mornings growing up I got to read, sing, and chat with other kids my age rather than watching TV (that's what most of my school friends did). Even if I later realized it was all fiction.

[–]david71119 -5 points-4 points ago

Do you need religion to learn what morality is? No, quite the contrary, religion goes against morality most of the times, because they are 'rules' that don't change as the time goes on and it also gives the wrong meaning of morality.

Do you need religion to think rationally? No, and again, quite the contrary, religion often teaches you to think UNrationally because you are taught to believe in FAITH rather then reason, FAITH rather then facts, FAITH rather then common sence.

So, WHY do we need religion? It teaches good things (yes), it teaches bad things, and only because it teaches good things it does not mean it's right to teach it to small children who can't even THINK for themselves.

[–]upsetGobbles 19 points20 points ago

are you serious? you're telling me that if you had kids, you wouldn't try to push or introduce atheism to them?

[–]HPDeskJet 7 points8 points ago

I have 2 girls ages 3 and 5. I am an atheist, my husband is an atheist. This subject is very simple. We don't have a reason to bring it up. We go about our lives as if religion does not exist. Just like all the other animals on the planet. But when the day comes that one of them asks about where we go when we die, the answer is, no one knows. Not one person or animal on this planet has ANY idea what happens when we die because no one has lived to tell the tale.

[–]topchief1 0 points1 point ago

Precisely.

[–]rjcarr 7 points8 points ago

How exactly do you introduce atheism?

[–]junkeee999 11 points12 points ago

Exactly. What if the child started hanging out with religious friends, started going to their events, expressed more and more interest in their beliefs?

Most people here would be horrified and try to talk their child out of it.

[–]TVops 3 points4 points ago

What the hell? "Introduce atheism?" As if there's an alternative? How about I introduce "not breathing" or "ignoring gravity?" Atheism is a lack of belief, that is the DEFAULT POSITION.

[–]jaded_gal05 2 points3 points ago

Agreed. Part of being a parent is teaching your child. I'm a Christian & I don't FORCE religion on my son. I've explained it & we discuss it. I'm with UpsetGobbles, don't try & tell me for ONE SECOND that if you had children you wouldn't teach atheism. You would. Don't lie. Or go ahead & lie,....it's not like you've gotta worry about anything happening right?

[–]sizzzzzzle 4 points5 points ago

I am an atheist. I guess if I was a parent, I would probably lean towards my bias in my humanist moral philosophy, but I wouldn't hammer into them my lack of belief in a god or that my way is the right way. I would definitely expose them to both science and religion, as I think both have played a different, but profound role in society and culture throughout the history of humanity. But I think what OP refers to is indoctrination in your religion/personal beliefs, i.e. teaching your kids that a certain set of doctrine or beliefs is beyond question and should be believed no matter what. If you don't do that, then this post is not talking about you. Though I am with you on one regard, there should also be a branding iron with the atheist logo (that capital cursive "A") in there as well, as any atheist can raise their kids in a staunch, atheistic and/or anti-religion sentiment in a dogmatic fashion.

[–]AgletsHowDoTheyWork 8 points9 points ago

Can you explain what you mean by "teach atheism"? Because I will not tell my children that there is no God, or even that any religion is wrong. If I want to express my opinions to them I can make it clear that I am stating my opinion. But I will teach facts - accepted scientific knowledge. I'm not going to say that heliocentrism or evolution is my opinion.

[–]Cheaba 0 points1 point ago

If I want to express my opinions to them I can make it clear that I am stating my opinion.

You really think your child isnt going to take everything you say as gospel? In a child's eyes you are all knowing, and your opinions mine as well be facts. It doesn't matter how much you emphasis that its just your opinion.

[–]AgletsHowDoTheyWork 1 point2 points ago

My parents always made it a point to tell me that grown-ups can be wrong - even them. Maybe when I was young I believed everything they said but I certainly didn't as I got older. They are both Christian and I'm atheist, but I never had to "come out" to them and I never feared that they would be upset at me for what I believed. So I guess I will try to emulate their strategy as much as possible.

Perhaps it's important to note that I won't be worried if my child turns out to be religious. I will try to instill basic moral values in my child and give him/her a love of the way the universe works. But I don't have to worry about my children going to hell, so what I will want for them is what makes them happy.

This may sound really idealistic because I'm not yet a parent. But I really hope this is the kind of parent I can be.

[–]PGH_Snake -2 points-1 points ago

Atheist here, but not a parent. Although I don't plan on having kids, if I did (and I've given this topic much thought), once they are of the appropriate age I would take them to every kind of religious service I can think of... I'd take them to Jewish synagogues, Baptist churches, Catholic cathedrals, Buddhist temples, Islamic mosques... We'd sit down and discuss the teachings of these religions, what the adherents of these religions believe, etc. My kid would know I'm an atheist, and they would know why I don't believe in any gods.

But I would try very hard to not force my views on them, and leave the decision up to them. I would want them to know that I would support them no matter which path they chose to take.

[–]flatline33 -1 points0 points ago

The difference is that you, as a Christian, had no rational evidence to justify what you're putting in your child's head. None at all.

[–]beauseph[S] 3 points4 points ago

No, I tend to say things I can't explain to "the universe or God, whichever"

[–]Piratiko 4 points5 points ago

Don't force opinions on your kids! That's what the internet is for!

[–]Valdus_Pryme 4 points5 points ago

If possible....

Teach your children HOW to think, not WHAT to think.

[–]Dentedkarma 4 points5 points ago

Still a Christian. Still formed my own opinion.

[–]Anem8r 2 points3 points ago

I love how most (not all) of the atheists here do nothing but make a horrible example of atheism to the world. The guy I work with (atheist, and awesome guy) and I, often laugh at how ridiculous you guys are in r/atheism. He even unsubscribed. By posting things like this, and bullying people because of their beliefs, you all look like big hypocritical bullies. In one breath try to make a stand for others who are bullied, like the gay community, to name just one. "How DARE you bully someone who is gay"... However, lets all applaud those who bully others for a belief they hold, that gives meaning to that persons life. Where are equal rights? I thought that was super important?

Bullying is bullying, and you guys use your atheism as a way to bully people with beliefs. Sounds a LOT like what people do with religion, and what you guys claim to hate.

Funny how that works.

You become what you hate. Too bad tolerance wasn't something practiced by some of the atheists on here, or something that was at least applauded. Instead, you appear to be nothing more than school children who post silly pictures and memes, pick on others who are different, and then have the arrogance to claim youre the ones who are 'rational' and 'logical'... Right.

[–]Thunder_Dan 0 points1 point ago

Hmmm, top three post are about about this being absurd...I think a lot of the people on this sub agree with you and are also tired of a vast amount of the crap that gets posted on here. I think you picked the wrong thread to post this in.

[–]bleedingheartsurgery 0 points1 point ago

some ppl are just assholes in general. this is the net, theres no stopping that. just because they dont believe in god, doesnt mean theyre automatically gonna be nice people

[–]lil_buddha 2 points3 points ago

Hnngghh, not a philosophical point or anything but the fish symbol is another representation of christianity.

[–]st00pid_reddit -1 points0 points ago

You could say the same for all the brainwashed libtards here.

[–]retskcirt1 0 points1 point ago

Love them atheists that support circumcision but not religion.

[–]Lykoaster 0 points1 point ago

This is just another reason to have people hate atheists... It's in such bad taste you can't help but feel like it's religious propaganda.

Like a double agent, you know?

[–]knighmare 5 points6 points ago

The sad thing is that many, many people see letting them choose as a negative thing.

[–]trtpow 6 points7 points ago

You also should look at it from the parents perspective, if they genuinely believe that their child will burn in the fiery pits of hell for eternity if they are not part of this religion, why would they let them choose at an age where they simply cannot?

I don't think indoctrinating children with a religion is the right choice, but I also wouldn't want my kids to burn in hell

[–]knighmare 1 point2 points ago

If they beleive that their god would let their child burn for having an opinion of their own why would they worship that god, that is an evil prick

[–]trtpow 1 point2 points ago

Isn't that the case in most religions though? "Worship me or suffer" sort of mindset?

[–]knighmare -1 points0 points ago

Indeed it is, but why would you worship something that offers only suffering if you dont.

[–]trtpow 3 points4 points ago

So you don't suffer

[–]bleedingheartsurgery 0 points1 point ago

yep, thats the thing that makes me know it is man made bullshit, and why i love it when ppl here attack religion for the BS it is, and maybe shape the next generation.. who gives a shit about the old ppl getting offended right now, im just glad younger ppl can see it for what it really is/was... a huge fucking CON pulled on everyone to scare them into thinking theyre gonna burn forever (how do you even do that, just burn and burn, after about a day, the joke would wear out real quick down there in hell)

[–]Chone-Us 2 points3 points ago

I also don't want my children to be trampled by a unicorn, but I will not make them wear helmets and safety gear 24/7 because I am afraid of unicorn attacks.... that would be ridiculous as most unicorns are known to be docile and friendly.

[–]penguin279 1 point2 points ago

This is why I don't like r/atheism. There're posts here all the time telling people to not force their religion on others, yet there are also posts here all the time about how God doesn't exist. It's hypocritical.

[–]bleedingheartsurgery 1 point2 points ago

its not one mind here, making posts, contradicting itself.

picture a mall full of people; its more like all those minds making individual comments, contradicting each other, if you may

[–]Pilot7 0 points1 point ago

It's not your kid. None of you business how I raise my kids. When they are old enough, I won't stop them from making their own decision. Who decides when that happens? ME until they are both 18. They can still have their own opinions before that, but it's my job to raise them what I believe to be the best for them. Once again. It's not ANYONE'S business but mine.

[–]LotusBunny 0 points1 point ago

Actually society has a vested interest in how you raise your children...

(I'm not saying this because I agree with the OP, it's a separate point).

[–]Pilot7 0 points1 point ago

Still not your children. No business telling me how to raise them. They can have an interest, but still none of their business. If that was true, there would be a manual and everybody would be the exact same. I raise them the way I believe will serve them best to be a productive, meaningful, member of society according to my beliefs. When they are old enough they can form their own beliefs.

[–]LotusBunny 0 points1 point ago

I don't think that society can tell you exactly how to raise your children, but there are some very, very general parameters within which you must raise them.

For instance, your kids are legally required to get a basic education. Of course you have a choice as to whether to send them to public, private, or even home school them. But we do enforce a general guideline that you educate your children.

That's all I'm saying is that society does enforce some very basic restrictions on how you raise your children. Clearly though, society shouldn't be enforcing the teaching or non-teaching of any particular religion on children, that's the parents' responsibility. I'm just saying that the blanket statement that it's none of anybody else's business isn't strictly accurate.

[–]sugarLudes 3 points4 points ago

I was reminded of this the other day when I saw this cunt I went to high school with standing in front of the county Republican Party building. She was holding her newborn and it had a caption that read "My little Republican" It made me want to vomit. The 20 "likes" and ignorant comments didn't help.

[–]Voxx101 -1 points0 points ago

Unless of course a child is born to atheist parents, then it is their duty to impart their beliefs!!!

[–]reddit_is_bs 0 points1 point ago

Hey, at least the baby was born. I mean you guys would rather have it aborted right?

[–]Qquuiinnoonneess -1 points0 points ago

Abortion jokes. Reddit's always so classy

[–]hellakevin 1 point2 points ago

i think you forgot how stupid kids are. when i was a kid all the ideas i had were stupid as hell.

[–]trtpow -1 points0 points ago

[–]ochtapas -1 points0 points ago

People actually disfigure their kids for their religion, so this is an apt metaphor.

If they wait til the kid is old enough to reason, however, they are going to have a much harder time convincing the kids to believe in X deity.

[–]1triangle 1 point2 points ago

Is it wrong to let your child form their own ideas/beliefs? Raising a toddler, I'd rather have my daughter grow up understanding that she is her own person... free to make her own decisions regarding personal views like religion and politics and not be afraid to have different views than family/friends. In my opinion, being a parent is loving your child unconditionally, regardless of what they believe.

[–]mcjoken 1 point2 points ago

Perhaps it is important that part of forming critical thinking and your own opinions involves eventually rejecting something that you thought was the truth, something that you were raised believing.

[–]rgthrowa 0 points1 point ago

That's one perspective. I take the Habermasian perspective, mixed with a little meme theory (Dawkins' stuff, not adviceanimals). Imagine that individuals have a sphere of awareness that could be thought of as a 4 dimensional phenomenological field across time and space variables with a corresponding network of communication induced symbolic processes and superimposed egos (literally selves) in the fabric of associated experience. These create behavioral practices at both a physical and symbolic interactional level manifesting distributed value calculations and substantiating social and material orders of reality. In this field memes, literally idea organisms, engage in a conflict ridden power struggle competing for experiential expression in and through the individual and collective cognitions of society and the species being output of cause and effect.

In example, the more a parent fills a child with their religion and calculate away the potential suppression of whole categories of thought, experience and critical self-awareness and the associated risks and harms, the more their lifeworld, behavior and identity are promoted and reified in the mind of a child. That way even in rejection the lifeworld and order of religious ideas has been implanted and thereby culturally transmitted through a new generation. The meme complex of a religion makes the parent feel certain rewarding ways on seeing their child obey the same cultural programming, they put pressure on a child to act a certain way and they restrict the information their children see it sees its reproduction and reenactment (as structured by the meme) within a broader and propagating field of phenomena. This provides a sense of security, accomplishment and satisfaction in the parents experience, as well as in their interactions and perceived judgements of their peers that the parents are willing to fail to rationally consider the real best interest of their children. It also allows them to put aside their compassion. No excuse really for such a maltreatment.

[–]Hypnotoad85 1 point2 points ago

Hmmmmm, Jesus fish or Jesus Crucifix...

[–]VELL1 0 points1 point ago

How can you let them develope their own opinions??? Children look up to their parents and at early stages of their lifes would like nothing else but to be like them. Parents always surround them and care for them, talk to them and so on. Whatever faith parents follow, children will choose the same one, regardless weather you "let" them choose or force them to acquire it. It is next to impossible to allow childrent to develop their own damn opinions, when they live in very next proximity to your opinions and are predisposed to choose your faith (or lack of thereof) over everything else.

[–]mamanakis 0 points1 point ago

Letting children develop their own opinions requires giving them the wherewithal to make judgments to develop an opinion: as with engineering, life education is a decreasing series of simplification taught until one decides that they have reached the bottom turtle.

[–]Yolinette -1 points0 points ago

Children do need guidance it depends how you teach them about God... if you teach them to love everyone as He does and not judge and form a good kind of relationship with him (which is how it should be in respect to christianity) and just be a downright decent human being rather than shove your religion down peoples throats shout hell to all in the middle of college campuses it wouldn't sound so bad to show your religion to your child.. that's all I can come up with while sitting here in class lol (I grew up catholic all my life but recently became non denomination so I now have a stronger relationship with God)

[–]funchy 1 point2 points ago

For a second my mind glanced at it and thought it was a circumcision statement. After all circumcision is largely driven by religious beliefs. And it's painful, can leave scars, and can allow infection. And it's done on people without their consent. If we could get enough religious people together to say hot-iron branding of infant boys was necessary and important for their faith, I wonder if it would become as acceptable as circumcision? Why is one right and one wrong?

[–]kipchak 0 points1 point ago

Obviously, the solution here is to keep your children in an idea bubble until they're 18, at which point you pop a fedora on them and they're ready to use their logic and knowledge to understand the world.

[–]pvalerio 0 points1 point ago

The Dr looks like Daniel Craig

[–]CoffeeAddict64 0 points1 point ago

I don't think that this is stupid, I mean yeah asking a kid a deep question like the "right" way to live your life is kinda silly but is it so stupid to let your child find their own way as they grow up? I think that's what the picture is getting at. I mean even if they choose a religion and find happiness isn't that better than having beliefs forced upon you?

[–]SpilledMiak 1 point2 points ago

As a physician, i find this offensive.

[–]p1415926 1 point2 points ago

As a newborn, I find this offensive.

[–]hi_its_john -1 points0 points ago

I'm an atheist who was raised in a fairly devout Catholic home. However, my parents are also extremely intellectual. They deliberately choose to not subject their faith to the same intellectual rigor as other aspects of their life. They're happier this way, and they rarely if ever allow religion to dictate how they think about and respond to current issues. They raised me as a thinker first and a Catholic second. I do not think I would have turned out significantly different if they were atheists. The problem with pictures and snippets of text is they simplify complex issues. Do I think there needs to be a conversation about religion and children? Yes because in some cases I think things need to change. It is undeniable that religious extremism causes significant problems and slows societal progress. I still support an individual's right to believe what they choose, though. What I do not and will not ever support is indoctrination through presenting non-facts as facts. I have no problem with parents raising their kids in a religion. I strongly disapprove of parents corrupting the development of their children through presenting their willful ignorance as a scientifically and intellectually accepted fact.

[–]bge 0 points1 point ago

You may as well say, "let the public develop your child's opinions". It's naive to think that just because parents don't indoctrinate a child, that child will suddenly have the capacity to approach all ideas with a the mature objectivity of an educated adult. It would rather only render that child more susceptible to the ideological bias of their community, the media their exposed to, etc. And even if that is more ethical than a parent forcing a religion onto their child, I would hardly call it a process of discovery -- even less a process of developing ones own opinions and personal identity.

[–]iTimmeh -1 points0 points ago

Letting people choose would kill religion. They know it sounds fucking stupid, because it is. I know many people who go to church to "give back to the community and help the needy". Fuck, take that hour and donate to Red Cross and volunteer there or adopt a child. Fucking hell, praying DOESN'T DO ANYTHING.

[–]VincetheMadMan 1 point2 points ago

Being anti-theist. No, fuck no. Im going to show my kids the delusion of religion at face value.

[–]hwalton 0 points1 point ago

Great idea. Soooo...no abortions, yeah?

[–]JayAllDay 0 points1 point ago

Do you have the capabilities to nurture and groom your child's opinions? If you don't you at least would need at least a high school diploma and some understanding of community. Otherwise you're just gonna waste my taxes in the name of Jesus or against Jesus. Preachy people are all the same = Annoying as shit

[–]Aquarius128 -1 points0 points ago

Too bad some children don't have a say whether or not they want to be aborted.

[–]FerretFarm 1 point2 points ago

As a CIA interrogator, torturer, and hot poker brander, I find this offensive.

[–]TheMrBoJangles 1 point2 points ago

Even though my parents are Christian as am I I still believe that I do have my "own damn opinions" and to say something like this is idiotic. Your parents are there for you the whole time, you look up to them (for the most part), and I you love them and look up to them for a reason then obviously you want to act like them and develop some similar opinions but not entirely the same opinions.

[–]Sieg581 0 points1 point ago

Thanks for putting the caption on there OP, being retarded fucks, we have a difficult time deciphering the meaning of a picture of two doctors branding a baby with religious symbols, dumbass.

[–]karateotter 0 points1 point ago

My kids can think and feel whatever they want. I'm still gonna ask for proof. I'm still gonna ask them to show me the work. I'm still gonna ask for evidence. I won't shame them if they can't make their magical dream world appear. However, I am raising them to find their proof and show it to me. I am raising them to show me the work they have used to come about this proof and evidence. I am going love them no matter what. Having two adult children who are completely separate from each other and their father and I. I have the evidence that and proof that raising children this way is possible. So onward I go with the younger three. Love them and support them. Tolerate their differences. Nurture the person that they are. It all goes so dang fast

[–]selfepidemic -1 points0 points ago

I'm glad my parents never raised me into any religion. In actuality no one in my family alive currently is religious. Not even christened. ( oh, my aunties boyfriend is Christian. Hes a dick. )

[–]eibelandr 1 point2 points ago

My kids can have whatever opinion they want

as long as it matches my own

[–]Olive_Garden 0 points1 point ago

Dat ass

[–]Vibhatsu 0 points1 point ago

It's called Unitarian Universalism. This concept of developing your own path is a central tenet of Unitarian Universalists. They teach their children to develop their own spiritual beliefs and ethical system and then practice it.

[–]LiouPynchon 0 points1 point ago

but, what about the karma?

[–]SIOS 1 point2 points ago

I dunno...would be pretty sweet to have a baby with a pentagram brand.

[–]_lnostdal_ -1 points0 points ago

I'm reminded of the question: "Should both creationism and evolution be taught in schools so that children can make up their own mind?" -- and of course both should not be taught in the sense that creationism is a 100 year old dead theory.

After all, there is no point in spending a significant amount of time teaching children about the god of thunder, Thor, in order to explain, well, thunder.

[–]caramelhands69 0 points1 point ago

I feel like the image could speak for itself without the caption. It comes across as a bit didactic (as, unfortunately, do most posts on r/athiesm). Good drawing though!

[–]huws39ysjisef3suf8sf 0 points1 point ago

No opinion is made on their own. Think about that.

[–]Zed4711 0 points1 point ago

Nice drawing

[–]paulfunyan 0 points1 point ago

not trying to start a hate war here so don't get the wrong idea but; coming from someone who is unsubscribed from atheism (saw this on the front page while not logged in) because i do not like your guys stance on atheism as an athiest.

to my point, however, if you had a kid as an atheist naturally you are going to teach them about science and the galaxy and the big bang theory and evolution and all the jazz, but are you going to give them a chance to look at christianity? what about islam? if not, then what gives you the right to tell a christian to not preach christianity to their child?

[–]Amryxx 1 point2 points ago

So.. no more bedtime, compulsory schooling, and eating a healthy diet?

[–]beastcock 0 points1 point ago

But if they don't indoctrinate them young, they will never be believers.

It's really hard to convince an adult that there is an invisible man who lives in the sky who hates gay people and shrimp.

The only reason people subscribe to religion is because it was imposed on them before they developed critical thinking skills.

[–]hovernozzle 0 points1 point ago

That's not true at all. Many people convert as adults. Anyone seeking a quick fix for the fear, uncertainty, and emptiness we all feel as human beings may subscribe to religion.

[–]flatline33 -1 points0 points ago

Not many people convert as adults.

[–]JohhnyTopside 2 points3 points ago

I was raised Christian and despite being only 17, I have decided for myself whether or not I really want to live my life this way. As my Pastor told me, "Everyone goes through a time (or two) in their life where they doubt their beliefs." I went through that, did a lot of research and thought about it and decided for myself it was how I would try and lead my life. I'm not perfect, but I try and live like christ however I can. I love my friends and family and PJ (my youth pastor) and if your opinion is different, that's fine, but I encourage you to look into the Bible and Christianity for yourself, rather than taking the word of some guy on TV or the Internet.

[–]Amryxx 1 point2 points ago

Looking at the picture, at first I thought they're going to brand the kid with the Darwin Fish. So the first thought I had is, "self-criticism? In r/atheism?"

[–]southernasshole 0 points1 point ago

I'd like to think this is commentary on genital mutilation.

I think it will fly over alot of heads here though.

Then again it could be taken either way.

[–]buttercupchico 0 points1 point ago

I agree 100%!

[–]gideon777 -2 points-1 points ago

Shut up, Empty Fool.

[–]eldonte 1 point2 points ago

I think bringing up your kids within a religious community is fine, just as long as they are given an opportunity to understand other faiths/beliefs, and make their own conclusions.

[–]MRAVOX 0 points1 point ago

My parents did this, and I really appreciate it. I'm horribly religious, but at least I wasn't taught to shove my opinions down other people's throats.

I'm Taoist if you were wondering, it is more of a philosophy than a religion.

[–]Vacster 1 point2 points ago

From now on that kid will believe in the fishy religion! He is going to become in sharkboy!

[–]Ichthasen 0 points1 point ago

Can anyone remove the text from this for me or help me find one without the text?

[–]Nickd1200 0 points1 point ago

I'd like to know how you would react if your child grew up to an Evangelical Christian that was also, socially conservative.

[–]meepy12345 0 points1 point ago

I know it's Werid for me to be excited about this but FINALLY WICCA IS IN ONE OF THESE TOO!

[–]FuzyWumpleStump 0 points1 point ago

I'm sure atheists do the same to their children. Just saying. This post is a load of shit.

[–]malakon 0 points1 point ago

and .. religion ends.

[–]dntptpnchlynintitle 0 points1 point ago

dont put the punchline in the title

[–]monkey_gamer 0 points1 point ago

It should show the guys circumcising the baby.

[–]Sokonomi 0 points1 point ago

Inaccurate. Atheism is the lack of a brand.

[–]god_killer1234567 1 point2 points ago

http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/y1uje/let_them_be_free/ I didn't do this well when I posted this 2 mos ago!

[–]flametailvonkarma 0 points1 point ago

So many people here are complaining that atheists would indoctrinate their kids in the same way. If you think that, you and I probably have a very different opinion on what indoctrination is. There's a difference between indoctrination and stating a belief. It's okay to say, "I believe in..." or "I don't believe in..." but that's not what this picture is talking about. This picturing is referencing people who state opinions to their children as if they were facts. Saying "there is a God" or "there is no God" is indoctrination, and I just don't think most people on /r/atheism would do that. I sure as hell wouldn't.

[–]avdude13 -1 points0 points ago

Would you feel the same way if Christians raised their children with your beliefs?

[–]meantamrajean 0 points1 point ago

I'm not raising my kid with any beliefs. I give her facts. She can reason shit out on her own.

[–]PoozTool13 -1 points0 points ago

All my life I've been raised in a Christian household. I go to church every Sunday and I attend religious functions with my family. A few months ago I chose to be an atheist because religion just isn't my thing and I am a firm believer in science. Throughout my life in the church I've been taught nothing but compassion for others and acceptance. Not only do we love homosexuals, we give them positions in the church because they portray a level of diversity and kindness that we believe is key to the Christian faith. Me and many of my friends chose atheism for various reasons, but that has not affected our place in the community. We're still loved, and we're still viewed as part of the "family". Not once has my family forced religion on me. They only took me to church my whole life just so that we could be together as a family and to make new friends. I'm saying this because I adamantly disagree with this picture. No one that I know forces Christianity on their children. They merely include them in the churches activities. So please stop with the generalizations. It's offensive to people who have gotten nothing but love and support from their Christian upbringing.

[–]Thunder_Dan 0 points1 point ago

Good for you and your family? You represent a very small sample size. Just because "no one you know" has had religion forced down their throat, doesn't mean it doesn't happens. No one is generalizing here. No one is saying all religious people force their kids to be religious. But, their is a large amount of religious people who would not be as accepting as your family and community has been. You are naive if you think this doesn't go on throughout the world.

[–]PoozTool13 0 points1 point ago

What I do know is that atheist force their views too. Don't get me wrong when I say that Christians I know don't force religion, cause I know that some do, but I've seen many fellow atheists bashing people on reddit and via Facebook. That's a form of force feeding a view. The hypocrisy that some of us display is upsetting

[–]Thunder_Dan 0 points1 point ago

Vocalizing your opinion is not forcing your views on people. If you do this in a rude or untactful way, you are doing nothing to help your cause. But this does not equate forcing your views on someone. Honestly, I don't believe Christians, in general, force their views on the public (except for abortion and gay marriage). They don't really demand us all be Christian. This is more of an Islamic thing. But, there are a large number of Christians that will disown family members that don't agree with their religious views. That is forcing your views on someone. When you say you have to be of said religion, or I will not support, love and nuture you, that is forcing your views. I don't see this happening wih athiest.

[–]PoozTool13 1 point2 points ago

It is true. The older Christian crowd is a bunch of assholes

[–]criminycrime 0 points1 point ago

I have a sneaking suspicion that atheists with children would be pretty disappointed/upset if their kids went all religious on them.... in fact, I suspect most atheists would probably ram it down their kids throats and be completely ignorant of the fact they're doing the same thing their parents tried to do to them. It's actually pretty funny, I'll laugh when we end up with a lot of religious children of atheist parents, rebelling against their parents ideas! Oh sure, everyone's going to say HELL NO I WOULD NEVER FUCKING DO THAT! I TEACH MY KIDS SCIENCE AND FACTS! But you'll do it just the same, and not even realize it (just like I will)!

Another thing too, what should the parents do if they're religious? Hire a babysitter every Sunday morning for an hour? Give me a break, this picture is stupid. When your kids are old enough to stay home and make an informed decision, then, yes, agreed 100%, you should not force it on them and should be supportive if your children choose something different than you in terms of their beliefs.

Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not remotely religious, I just laugh at the high and mighty atheists that populate Reddit :P

[–]bigbysemotivefinger -1 points0 points ago

I am new here and don't know how, but someone should crosspost this on /r/youthrights. They would appreciate it there.

[–]papsmearfestival 1 point2 points ago

Teaching: What I tell my kids about the world

Indoctrination: What the other guy teaches his kids about the world

[–]CaptainMadDog-Flint -1 points0 points ago

Says the dude who would probably force atheism on his kids given the chance.