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Auschwitz personnel at a weekend retreat, 1944. [468x297] (imgur.com)

submitted ago by bibimbab111

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[–]AngryBorscht 72 points73 points ago

Is there verification for this being a pic of Auschwitz personnel and not just Nazi officers?

[–]high_stephinition 113 points114 points ago

This photo is from an album that is thought to have been compiled by Karl-Friedrich Höcker, who was an SS Officer. The photos are fascinating, offering a glimpse into the lives of Auschwitz personnel. They show SS Officers eating blueberries and happily frolicking at what looks like a camp retreat of some sort, just miles away from the concentration camp.

There are also photos of Mengele and Höss who were both commanders at the camp.

You can view the entire album, with original captions, here: http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/online/ssalbum/

[–]AngryBorscht 11 points12 points ago

Thank you.

[–]ohgoddontdoit 6 points7 points ago

Upvote for accuracy. However I can't bring myself to view the album. Too depressing.

[–]cI_-__-_Io 0 points1 point ago

The photos are fascinating, offering a glimpse into the lives of Auschwitz personnel

I was in Auschwitz last week and that's one thing that left me disappointed. We visited the camps, saw how the Jews were treated but had almost no information about the daily life of the nazis, which, I think, would be quite fascinating in itself.

[–]bibimbab111[S] 41 points42 points ago

Oh yes, and then some

[–]AngryBorscht 5 points6 points ago

Nice work.

[–]JoeJFG 6 points7 points ago

Hey dude. Is this where you got that image? You shouldn't pull things directly off of Google Image search. You should go to the website and get the pics off of there.

Here is a higher resolution off of the Daily Mail

[–]Velitatio 10 points11 points ago

please don't direct people to the daily mail

[–]JoeJFG 1 point2 points ago

I didn't direct him to the Daily Mail. That's where he got the image. I was just saying that if he properly sourced it, he would have gotten a higher resolution.

Also, I don't know much about the Daily Mail. Why should I avoid it?

[–]Velitatio 3 points4 points ago

because it is the Fox News of the UK. Shit news.

[–]TheAdoringFan 0 points1 point ago

It's the Fox News of the UK I guess you could say.

[–]Halofit -2 points-1 points ago

I find it slightly ironic that this was posted on the Daily mail.

[–]BeatlesForSale 2 points3 points ago

I prefer to call it the Daily Sieg Heil.

[–]TripleNerdScore1 398 points399 points ago

I think this photo is yet another proof that human morality exists on a complex continuum: "good" and "evil" become highly malleable concepts given the right socio-political moment and the right propaganda tools. Many contemporary viewers are shocked that these personnel could frolic happily in the woods while they were killing Jews and political dissidents just a few miles away... but our shock and horror only works if we assume that the pictured Auschwitz personnel had a concept that they were doing something morally evil. The fact is, they were participating in a system they had been taught to accept and justify. It's not enough to say "The Nazis were evil." The Nazis were Nazis because they'd grown up in a particular context and been convinced of certain falsehoods their entire lives; it's important not to forget that.

[–]kitatatsumi 113 points114 points ago

I dont mind them having a laugh after a long day of genocidin'. Really, I don't. But as humans, they should be capable of empathy. They knew what they were doing. They read the Bible. They avoided pain, misery and poison like everyone else in this world. They didn't want to die themselves. They would have done any thing to avoid the same fate they delivered to others. As intelligent beings, they knew the pain they were inflicting and if they were sane, they knew it was wrong.

[–]Kaiosama 45 points46 points ago

Do you feel morally wrong when you kill a bug that's in your way or slaughter an animal for food? Of course you wouldn't want to be in that animal's place, but have you committed a morally reprehensible act from your perspective if you've brought harm to another creature that would rather go on living?

This is the power of dehumanization. You saw it happen in Nazi Germany, it's the same type of mentality that led to the genocide in Rwanda, notwithstanding countless genocides across the world. Even the history of humanity's use of slavery throughout the middle-east, africa, the Americas, Europe... they all fall into this.

Morality is subjective and malleable, unfortunately. Is there such a thing as objective morality? I used to think so, but I wonder sometimes now.

[–]not_m3 5 points6 points ago

I realized how little freedom I possess when I only got to upvote this once.

[–]kitatatsumi -2 points-1 points ago

I dont live next door to cows and share the buses with cows and my children do not go to school with cows. Nor do cows speak to me about their feelings, write books, sing songs, love each other or have a culture. Despite what the books might say, as a human I know that cows are not human and not like me. Likewise, having the ability to think critically, I also know that other humans are just like me.

I get it, they were convinced that the Jews were not human. But, in reality, they knew better.

[–]honeytrap 0 points1 point ago

Yes, yes...only give a shit about the lives which are just like yours...this attitude has never caused any real problems...

[–]kitatatsumi 0 points1 point ago

I think you are barking up the wrong tree bud. Read it all again and then if you still feel the same way, comment.

[–]honeytrap 0 points1 point ago

I don't think you're using that phrase correctly, and you're missing my point. The example you tried to use with cows could have been better and more efficiently expressed this way: "Out of sight, out of mind, and anyway, they're so different from us."

Do you realize just how easy it is to apply this same attitude to people, especially when you've been relentlessly brainwashed to do so?

It must be nice over there in your hilariously fragile bubble of moral certitude.

[–]kitatatsumi 0 points1 point ago

You are right, I don't get your point.

Im not sure of the point of this epic zinger either: It must be nice over there in your hilariously fragile bubble of moral certitude.

I honestly think you are still missing my point. Ill summarize.

I say that the people working in the Camps knew what they were doing was wrong. Understandably propaganda convinced them it was OK to believe it wasn't, but they still knew it was wrong.

Hitler took power in 1933, Kristallnacht was in 1939 and the Camps were in full swing between 1939 and 1942. So if I was 20 in 1933, I was a normally-developed human being who had an ability to empathize and understand the pain of others.

Yet, you expect me to believe that ten years later this ability had been bread out of me? No way.

[–]NothingButLoveForAll 0 points1 point ago

If your empathy remained intact, then you would have hopefully left Germany like so many other people did. Many however didn't have the fortitude of being able to resist the teachings of hate. Anti-semitism had been around in Germany for a very long time as well so many things played into making the image of them into something sub-human. Other countries have a bad record with hate, and have it still occurring as well...

[–]TripleNerdScore1 89 points90 points ago

Yes and no. Human empathy is not an "all or nothing" concept -- I would highly recommend Dr. Simon Baron Cohen's "Zero Degrees of Empathy" for a good, smart read on this topic. In that text, Cohen argues that Nazis "knew what they were doing" insofar as they knew that they were (according to their own worldviews) eliminating a pestilence from good, hard-working German society. They thought of Jews as non-human, non-deserving of the same sense of pain, misery, and poison.

I'm not trying to shit on what you're saying, but it's actually REALLY important to me that we understand this: If we charge Nazis with the simple, reductionist indictment of being "evil" or "insane", then we will not understand when contemporary acts may be equally harmful or genocidal, because we are looking only for acts of "evil" or "insanity" instead of asking tough questions about political scapegoats, hate legislation, and dehumanizing practices in wartime. See, for example, American conduct in the Vietnam War or at Abu Ghraib.

EDIT: Because a few people picked up on this (and I responded below), I'm not suggesting that the Holocaust, Vietnam, or Abu Ghraib are all the same thing. I'm just saying that all three examples made heavy use of dehumanizing methods, which is important (I think) in understanding why Nazis were able to do things we consider morally reprehensible and not have a moral problem with it at the time. The question isn't really about who deserved what or why, or how many people were killed, or how violent it was; we could go around and around on that. It's about how the perpetrators are able to be convinced that what they're doing isn't wrong. So, sorry for repeating myself, folks :)

[–]1stunna 11 points12 points ago

The things that went on at Abu Ghraib were not equally harmful when compared to genocide. What happened at Abu Ghraib was criminal, but it wasn't murder. While each individual Nazi may not be individually responsible, the community ideals they developed as a collective represent one of the biggest failures of humanity in history.

[–]TripleNerdScore1 2 points3 points ago

Just to clarify (because yours isn't the only comment picking up on this): You're right, I don't agree that Abu Ghraib is on par with the Holocaust! No way -- they're in way different places on the scale. All I'm saying is that both Abu Ghraib and the Holocaust made heavy use of dehumanizing methods, which is important (I think) in understanding why Nazis were able to do things we consider morally reprehensible and not have a moral problem with this at the time.

[–]yomamaisoncrackrocks 1 point2 points ago

it is one of the biggest failures you know about, a lot of shit happened in the history of mankind. Apart from that, the point TripleNerdScore1 tried to make, even I don't support everything he said, was that Abu Ghraib or other events like this or even every single other war on this planet has it's own cruelty, done by humans.

Why TripleNerdScore1 isn't right for me at all points he made, is, that there were everytime people who fought the status quo and there were (are) erverytime human beings who knew it was wrong. Maybe the belief in something is what legitimates cruelty like this. But this doesn't mean that those who've done that had and have a sick mind.

[–]figbar 4 points5 points ago

See, for example, American conduct in the Vietnam War or at Abu Ghraib.

You lost me here. We're talking 11 million innocent victims versus a war that was nasty on both sides and mistreatment of a few hundred prisoners. Not saying there weren't atrocities in those cases, but they just don't compare.

[–]TripleNerdScore1 2 points3 points ago

Like I think I mentioned to other redditors below regarding Abu Ghraib, my statement wasn't that these atrocities were all on the same scale; that's not true. I'm only clarifying that the Holocaust made heavy use of dehumanizing methods, which is important (I think) in understanding why Nazis were able to do things we consider morally reprehensible and not have a moral problem with it at the time. The question isn't really about who deserved what or why, or how many people were killed, it's about how the perpetrators are able to be convinced that what they're doing isn't wrong.

[–]figbar -1 points0 points ago

I completely agree about the nazis. But there were widespread demonstrations against both Vietnam and Abu Ghraib, evidence that the same brainwashing hasn't taken place in this country.

Also, I think it's generally a good idea not to judge the past by the standards of the present. For thousands of years, slavery was an acceptable institution. The people who practiced it weren't automatically evil. Not promoting slavery, just illustrating your point.

[–]kitatatsumi -4 points-3 points ago

Yeah, the Vietnam Abu Graib part is way, way off target. Shameful to be honest.

[–]yomamaisoncrackrocks 3 points4 points ago

He just tried to point something out. precise said, everything he wrote about why people do something. and there you can use a lot of examples. also abu ghraib. for me you can even use guantanamo. people get tortured and the ones who do this believe it's legitimate.. because they are fucking sick and brainwashed.

[–]kitatatsumi 3 points4 points ago

Nope.

Abu Graib was a crime. Those people were not following orders. They were acting alone and were prosecuted for what they did. The US Army categorically rejects that type of behavior.

How does that statement apply to the SS and Germany's institutionalized murder that flowed through every aspect of society and depended on the acceptance of the population?

Guantanamo is also different. Ill admit that advanced interrogation techniques do come dangerously close to torture. But the main differeces are important:

a) the people being interrogated in Gitmo are enemy combatants. Part of a larger force that is activiely taking up arms against the US, its allies and its citizens.

Who were the Jews attacking? What crimes had they committed.

b) The goal of advanced interrogation techniques is to acquire information that can prevent terror attacks and save lives. Not sadistic joy or an effort to wipe a race from the face of the earth.

How did starving, beating Jews and stuffing them into ovens save German lives? Even on a theoretical level?

Of course, youll say that some people have died in Gitmo and at AGraib. Youll also say that a portion of them could in fact be innocent. Regardless, those are anomolies and do not reflect the policy.

German policy was to exterminuate all undesirabels to the tune of tens of millions. No comparison to AGraib or Gunatanimo. Infact, suggesting they are equal is a slap in the face to the tens of millions who sufferred horrible agonizing deaths for no good reason except for thier race.

[–]yomamaisoncrackrocks 1 point2 points ago

I won't argue about that with you, because you say nothing wrong (except "Ill admit that advanced interrogation techniques do come dangerously close to torture." I think this is a very strange description of what happens there, it is torture)

But the point still is, that it's not that German case in particular but the circumstances why people act like this. It is pure Ideology, but sometimes it's just hate or a sick mind or whatever what makes people act like that. And that's true (for me) for every single worker at Ausschwitz or people in Abu Ghraib. I don't want to compare the Third Reich with Abu Ghraib. I just wanted to point out that people get either brainwashed totally or just have a sick mind. Normally it's both, I guess. I just can't believe you can brainwash a healthy mind to that point that he starts torturing other people. Or I just don't want to believe it.. who knows.

[–]kitatatsumi 1 point2 points ago

I dont think its sickness, hate or brainwashing. I think the German case is unique.

Hitler took power in 1934, and you could say that Camps were in full swing by 1940 and by 1945 they were done.

Thats taking a modern, educated society and transmitting it into a state almost entirely focused on genocide. I find it difficult to believe that a guy who was 25 in 1934, was brainwashed by 1940.

I can understand a small child who was fed propaganda during the formative years of his life. But what of a grown adult who lived next door to a Jew in 1935 and was starving them to death in 1942?

Why or how it happens is not my point. The fact that they knew it was wrong is.

[–]yomamaisoncrackrocks 1 point2 points ago

What I want to add at last is, not every single German was part of the genocide. For me only sick people could be part of it. And a sick 25 year old mind maybe found his opportunity to live out all the rage and hate against other human"races" with the takeover by the NSDAP. I believe in every single society today are lot of fucked up people. You only have to press start in their heads.

Hey, but right now I even forgot what my point was in this discussion from the beginning. I am from Germany and I promise you, I would have killed myself before playing any active part in a Genocide. Fact is, History proofs that there are too much evil-beings out there.

In one way it reminds of Platon's "Allegory of the Cave" .. we never know how our reality can be constructed. But I hope there is more than a constructed reality that takes a human to kill innocent people. Maybe that's what I always mean with Sickness.

I am sick of this.

[–]TripleNerdScore1 1 point2 points ago

I'm repeating myself a bit from a comment above, but I wanted to clarify this: You're right in the sense that Abu Ghraib and the Holocaust are on very different levels. All I'm saying is that both Abu Ghraib and the Holocaust made heavy use of dehumanizing methods, which is important (I think) in understanding why Nazis were able to do things we consider morally reprehensible and not have a moral problem with it at the time. The question isn't really about who deserved what or why, or how many people were killed, it's about how the perpetrators are able to be convinced that what they're doing isn't wrong. Just my two cents.

[–]jdepps113 23 points24 points ago

I take your point, but if they truly believed Jews were as horrible as the Nazi propaganda suggested, then their actions make perfect sense.

The trouble is, there's nothing wrong with Jews. They're good people, for the most part, like anyone else. All that shit was a rotten lie.

But if it were true that they were evil, soulless horrors, then killing them would make as much sense as killing zombies makes to the characters in The Walking Dead. And that's the mindset that these people had, which is why they were able to do as they did.

Yeah, you can say they knew this was wrong from the Bible. I guess that's a fair point. But they had put their faith in a single man as their king and god, pretty much, and they believed what he and his group of people told them. They weren't really comparing Hitler to the Bible. It seems like they weren't comparing Hitler to anything. They just revered him and did what he wanted.

If anything, it's not just about what humans are capable of. It's about what most humans are capable of believing, when they are told it consistently enough by those they deem to be authorities. The idea that Jews are these terrible bloodsucking creatures seems to us to be absurd, which it is, and that is why we rightly view the Holocaust with such horror. But if we were convinced that these people were pure evil by the propaganda of a totalitarian state, well, we'd have a different opinion.

Obviously not everyone was so completely convinced by Nazi propaganda. I'm pretty sure only those that were so convinced, were assigned jobs at concentration camps though.

The fucked up part isn't that these people did something wrong. It's that they thought they were doing something right.

[–]kingguru 3 points4 points ago

Yeah, you can say they knew this was wrong from the Bible.

But according to Jehovah in the old testament genocide is just fine, so I'm not really sure relying on the bible for what is good and evil helps much.

[–]kitatatsumi 1 point2 points ago

My point is, that as humans, they did not truly believe it was OK. They did know it was wrong, but did it anyway.

Of course, anyone is capable of it, but few actually do it. They did and I don't accept that five to ten years of propaganda will erase the bonds that humans have developed since the dawn of time.

[–]jdepps113 1 point2 points ago

And my point is, I don't think you are completely correct in this. I think they had been so far indoctrinated that they actually believed what they were doing was right.

I would certainly agree that at some point in the past they had probably believed it was wrong. But the changes in the social structure, the propaganda, and everything else actually led to their believing that this was right now.

[–]kitatatsumi 0 points1 point ago

I can accept "had to be done" for the greater good.

But they still knew killing these people was ethically wrong. Why else did they hide it? Add to that the tortuous conditions and abuse and you get guilt.

And I can understand purging your nation of undesirable elements. But how do you justify exporting that policy to other nations?

load more comments (16 replies)

    [–]JohnnyMnemo 4 points5 points ago

    You're human, I assume, in spite of being a redditor ;) Do you have empathy for roaches or even rats when you kill them? Probably not. The Nazis learned through repeated and universal instruction that Jews were roaches.

    I'm quite sure that the Nazis had enough empathy to love their spouses and kids. But they did not regard Jews as humans, therefore did not deserve empathy.

    I think TripleNerdScore1 makes an important point that should not be forgotten. When Evil comes through the door in horns and smelling of brimstone, it's obvious and we all recoil. Powerful evil is very often much more insidious, and appears as goodly and godly behavior. Then all it takes to get you to do evil is to tell you that you should do right. We should all be alert to those perversions, but the first part in doing so is to realize that they will not usually be obvious.

    The best treatment of this that I have read is Vonnegut's Mother Night.

    [–]kitatatsumi 1 point2 points ago

    First, roaches and rats are not people.

    Second, the analogy might work for Jews, but what about everyone else? POWs, Homosexuals, Political Prisoners, were they all also rats? They were German.

    No matter what books I read and what TV shows I watch, you will not convince me (in 5 years) that we have no to other choice but to gas my next door neighbors on an industrial scale. And then make be believe that it was necessary to go into other countries and round people up and gas them as well. You might force me to do it, but I find it difficult to accept that a modern human thought it was "right" to murder children and old women with poison gas. Even for a greater good. They knew it was wrong, they hid it.

    [–]obxfisher 2 points3 points ago

    You said it better than I could have. But I feel that regardless of whether or not they were convinced by propaganda, killing is wrong. Killing the way THEY killed is wrong. You can't be relieved of responsibility by just by saying I was just going with the status quo.

    [–]Squibbykins 2 points3 points ago

    But if you DIDN'T go along with the status quo you where sent to a camp yourself as a political prisoner. The main camp at Dachau Concentration Camp was filled with political prisoners who tried to stand up and say it was wrong to treat the prisoners the way they did. It was a bit of a shut-up-and-go-with-it or protest-and-die situation.

    Within the camps themselves they had jewish or gypsy group leaders that would "lead" the other prisoners to get mildly better treatment from the guards for themselves and their family. Those leaders would regularly have to brutally beat their bunkmates for whatever the nazi guards decided was insubordination.

    As a half jew who knowingly lost about 35 family members, I can't say I blame these people- They where brainwashed or scared for themselves and families. The fear of the unknown punishment can drive people to do horrible things. I can't imagine being strong enough to risk my life to openly stand up to such an obviously powerful status quo.

    Edit

    Also, not all the staff knew the extent of the killing. The office workers may have had no clue what was going on behind the fence on the far side of the complex. When I visited Dachau Concentration Camp last year the "showers" and furnaces where hidden from the main camp, and the office buildings where also removed from the convicts to shelter the "pure" staff from having to interface with the "trash". Its possible those woman never even saw a prisoner.

    [–]tanger 2 points3 points ago

    "They read the bible"

    ...

    "from 1 Samuel 15:3: "This is what the Lord Almighty says ... 'Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.' "

    [–]kitatatsumi 0 points1 point ago

    Tanger, if you think that Im here to defend the Bible you are barking up the wrong tree. The point was that a modern society would have a great deal of prior conditioning that killing innocent people is wrong. The Bible was just one example.

    Does the Bible advocate killing enemies?

    Yes.

    Do the modern versions of the Bible take a less violent approach?

    Yes.

    Do I really give a shit what the Bible says?

    No.

    [–]kingguru 4 points5 points ago

    They read the Bible.

    The bible is not really a good place to look for moral advice though.

    [–]DroppaMaPants 1 point2 points ago

    The Bible is a poor place to learn morality and compassion.

    From reading the Old Testament - that book has more racism, deliberate acts of genocide, torture and murder than anything else I've ever read. It does have some compassion, but it is dealt out randomly and to those who questionably deserve it.

    [–]kitatatsumi 0 points1 point ago

    Really dont care to be honest, but the Old Testament is different from the New. Point simply being that religious folks would understand that, in a general sense, killing was wrong and Jews were close to God.

    [–]DroppaMaPants 0 points1 point ago

    Oh right - the 10 commandments and all that, gotcha.

    [–]found314 9 points10 points ago

    Haha what?!

    Evil people can still have a good time. In fact, having a good time in the face of such great human depravity is one of the most basic forms of being evil.

    People are shocked at this because they can't imagine themselves killing people during the week and then having a few laughs on the weekend. That is evil and it should be shocking to see this pic

    [–]ohgoddontdoit 23 points24 points ago

    Having seen the WWII photos of Auschwitz I honestly cannot see how at some level these people were not aware of what they were doing was not morally right. Perhaps the social framework they lived in made it easier for them to have an excuse to commit morally wrong acts. But surely they can't have all slept easily every night.

    However as we've all know from various studies, power over others is intoxicating and still intoxicates people in 2012 in places like Guantanamo. As a human being I can only hope if somehow I ever end up in a similar situation I'd be a whistle blower (and even a victim), rather than compliant with whatever the 'authorities' say is 'right'.

    [–]gnarbucketz 47 points48 points ago

    This is the comment I was looking for. Most others mean to peg these people as "outright evil," but who's to say they weren't convinced by propaganda that their work was for the greater good? What if the history books end up with us as the bad guy from 2002 on? History is written by the victors; if we'd lost WWII, this picture would tell a completely different story.

    [–]myalt2012 23 points24 points ago

    History is written by the victors; if we'd lost WWII, this picture would tell a completely different story.

    I agreed with you up to this point. You're right that history is written by the victors, but that doesn't necessarily mean we would be interpreting the genocide of the Jews as a good thing if it had been successfully completed.

    Let's suppose the Nazis formed a totalitarian world government and ruled for 1000 years. Once the uprisings and resistance died down (after a few decades, no more than a century) revisionists would start looking back at the Holocaust and saying that it was perhaps not such a great thing after all. Eventually their view (as always happens with revisionism) would become dominant and everyone would accept it as a dark spot on their history.

    Hell, I don't believe such a situation is even necessary for the Nazis to evaluate the Holocaust as bad. I'm sure every one of these guards (well, at least the non-sociopaths) went home at night and had nightmares thinking of the deaths they'd caused. Think about prison guards today; many of them have extremely conflicted views about their jobs. On the one hand they believe their job is necessary, but on the other they see the horror of prison and the pain it inflicts on convicts. Whether the prison (or concentration camp) is a good thing or bad bears no relevance on the guards' emotions. Nazi guards must have felt the same way, if not worse.

    My point is that the outcome of WWII has little to do with how we view the people in this photo. They performed evil actions (though whether from brainwashing, malice, or fear of being punished varied from person to person) and anyone in any society is capable of recognizing that fact, even the guards themselves. The evil may be overshadowed by the greater good but that doesn't mean they don't know it's evil.

    [–]darthsibilance 11 points12 points ago

    Many examples of this in US history. The murder of ~10,000 civilians in the Philippines during the conflict in the late 19th century is a "black spot," also the decimation of native Americans, etc. I think you make a very good observation I hadn't thought of

    [–]aoiao 1 point2 points ago

    I'm sure every one of these guards (well, at least the non-sociopaths) went home at night and had nightmares thinking of the deaths they'd caused.

    It doesn't take sociopathy to accept, allow, participate in atrocities such as the holocaust. As Hannah Arendt pointed out, evil is much more banal.

    [–]myalt2012 1 point2 points ago

    I totally agree that not only sociopaths commit evil. That's exactly what I'm arguing. But accepting, allowing, and participating in an atrocity doesn't mean you aren't affected by it.

    [–]gnarbucketz 1 point2 points ago

    In this case, the people in the photo look so happy because this little outing has given them much needed reprieve from their fucked-up workday.

    [–]Rekel 0 points1 point ago

    I'm sure every one of these guards went home at night and had nightmares thinking of the deaths they'd caused.

    This is partly why the gas chambers were invented. Just gunning down people all the time was too hard even for the toughest SS soldiers.

    [–][deleted] ago

    [deleted]

    [–]LockAndCode 1 point2 points ago

    You think the pilgrims had nightmares about giving smallpox laden blankets to the natives?

    Dude, pick up a history book. The pilgrims actually got on fairly well with the locals. The widely believed story is that the US Army--- in the 19th century, not 1620--- gave indians smallpox blankets... and in reality, they never did. An army general once suggested it, but the suggestion was dismissed. You can't even effectively infect blankets with smallpox.

    [–]Dr_Terrible 0 points1 point ago

    I think most any reasonable, educated person in America would agree that that the decimation of the Native American people and their culture was an atrocity.

    Also -- evil doesn't exist? Seriously? You're either naive or being absurdly relativist.

    [–][deleted] ago

    [deleted]

    [–]Dr_Terrible 0 points1 point ago

    We can easily correct the mistake

    Please explain to me how we can "easily correct" the annihilation of an entire culture. No, everyone in America "leaving and returning the land" doesn't count as an easy solution.

    Whether or not Hitler or the founding fathers were evil has nothing to do with whether or not evil exists. Evil exists because evil acts are committed every day. How can you argue otherwise?

    load more comments (4 replies)

      [–]RoflCopter4 19 points20 points ago

      After a while, that will go away. Historians will eventually look at our texts impartially and draw their own conclusions. This, however, is a long way into the future.

      [–]Kaiosama 6 points7 points ago

      I disagree with this notion.

      We look at past tyrannical dictator emperors with rose lenses, rather than through the eyes of the people they oppressed. History doesn't even remember the oppressed once it becomes ancient history.

      [–]adenbley 5 points6 points ago

      i really wish this day would come sooner than later, and maybe it will if we could have a wikipedia that could be edited by anyone and somehow self resolved conflicts and showed competing interpretations of events (unlike now where there it sometimes seems that there is an intellectual version of SRS moderating it).

      it really upsets me that people can become emotional over pictures like this, while their leader is selling guns to countries that use child soldiers, and they don't care, or even worse feel that it is their own best interest (like the drone attacks and assassinations).

      [–][deleted] ago

      [deleted]

      [–]RoflCopter4 -3 points-2 points ago

      Huh? I'm pretty sure that's exactly what historians do. You don't see modern historians pretending that there were actually 300 Spartans who stopped the big, evil Persians. As time passes, things will get less emotional.

      [–]kitatatsumi 2 points3 points ago

      What story would it tell?

      [–]racoonpeople 17 points18 points ago

      Probably a similar one that Americans tell of the Indians.

      [–]kitatatsumi 0 points1 point ago

      And what story is that?

      [–]quadratic_trinomial 1 point2 points ago

      Gnarbucketz, what sort of person do you think can watch old women, men, children and babies being systematicaly murdered and tortured and think, "Oh, well. It's for the greater good"? Do you think that's normal and can happen to anyone ?

      [–]gnarbucketz 4 points5 points ago

      Perhaps someone who is acting under threat of pain or death. These examples are by no means of the same magnitude, but you might find them interesting:

      The Third Wave

      The Milgram Experiment

      Let us not forget Abu Ghraib. Although it's widely accepted that it was a major fuck-up, it's not impossible for such a thing to happen on a wide scale, especially when the psychology from the above experiments is at play.

      [–]mAdatee 2 points3 points ago

      I came here to post the Milgram experiment. It's surprising what someone will do when an authority figure tells them to do it.

      [–]quadratic_trinomial 1 point2 points ago

      The Milgram experiment hardly applies here. We are talking about the systematic torture and murder of thousands of civilians over a period of years, not some lab experiment. Are you guys saying you could be lulled into torturing and gassing children by authority figures ? Come on.

      [–]mAdatee 4 points5 points ago

      You didn't read the experiment did you? The participants thought they were torturing the confederates and continued to do so into what was construed as deadly levels of electric shock.

      The participants essentially thought they were shocking someone until they were near death because an experimenter told them to do so..

      Were the participants, probably college students, evil because they "tortured" other people under the command of another person? I don't think so.

      Am I saying that there aren't evil people in this world? No, but am I saying that normal people can be easily driven to do evil things.

      [–]quadratic_trinomial 1 point2 points ago

      I am familiar with the experiment. Shocking one person under lab supervision is hardly the same as running an extermination camp, now is it ? Do you think you personally could do this ? You need to answer yes to sustain your argument.

      [–]mAdatee 1 point2 points ago

      If you think the sample size for this experiment is one than you must not be very familiar with this experiment.

      I'll give you some tl;dr. There was more people that tortured on command than didn't in a large sample of people.

      And no, my opinion on what I would do in a situation that I have not been put in does not indicate that normal people won't torture when pushed by their superiors.

      [–]quadratic_trinomial 2 points3 points ago

      I detect an impasse. Let's agree to disagree.

      [–]the_goat_boy 0 points1 point ago

      The system in the Auschwitz camp network was designed, in part, to alienate the people operating it from the whole operation. For example, there was one man who used a lever and another man who pressed a button. They were not able to see the full consequence of their small action because they weren't privy to the whole scheme. It was designed that way in order to spare its operators from the sort of psychological damage that would be incurred if they were just shooting each prisoner and kicking their bodies into a ditch, one by one.

      [–]towerofterror 1 point2 points ago

      You're taking this idea waaaaaay too far. You can't excuse genocide by saying that these poor people were "convinced by propaganda that their work was for the greater good."

      They're adults, and should be taken to task for their decisions. If you're convinced by someone to do evil, it doesn't make it less evil.

      [–]HeyCarpy 13 points14 points ago

      They're adults, and should be taken to task for their decisions

      This is over-simplification of the worst kind. Regardless, no one is "excusing genocide" here.

      [–]e4excellence 1 point2 points ago

      Relevant Mitchell and Webb

      [–]adenbley -3 points-2 points ago

      i agree with the 2002 and on bit, like right now we are actively killing civilians with the goal of "ending terrorism" or whatever the tv says it is this week. i'm sure hitler talked about how all of this sucked, but they were doing it for the good of the german people.

      [–]aoiao -2 points-1 points ago

      We haven't genocided 6 million Jews for one. We've done nothing even close to that horrifying.

      [–]Dr_Terrible 4 points5 points ago

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_massacre

      [–]kitatatsumi 0 points1 point ago

      Today I learned that conflict between two cultures is actually equal to an intentional, systematic, nationwide, government-orchestrated plan to murder ten million people for no good reason.

      [–]Dr_Terrible 2 points3 points ago

      I'm not saying that it was "as bad" as the Holocaust and that's not the point. The point is that we as a nation have participated in some terrible things, including the genocide of a people and the dismantling of their culture.

      [–]kitatatsumi -1 points0 points ago

      Its debateable if it was genocide.

      For it to be genocide there has to be a Government-sponsored effort to eradicate a portion of society.

      While Ill admit that the Government was complicit in a range of massacres, abuses, maltreatment and nasty business. There is no proof or reason to suggest that the US Government actively developed a policy with the clear goal of eradicating the Native Americans.

      The Indians even sided against the Americans in actual wars, does this not explain at least a portion of their mistreatment?

      The destruction of American Indian culture lies some where between criminal negligence or just another example of what happends when a more advanced society encounters another. Happens the world over.

      Everyone is living on land that used to be someone else's home. The American Indians included.

      [–]the_goat_boy 0 points1 point ago

      ಠ_ಠ

      It's not debatable at all. The genocide of the native Americans stands as a classic example of genocide.

      [–]kitatatsumi 0 points1 point ago

      Saying that it is a "classic example" is not true. The US governments policy was "assimilation" not "eradication". Arguably the results were similar, but without a clear and consistent US Government policy to completely eliminate the Indian race, its certainly not a "classic example".

      [–]the_goat_boy 0 points1 point ago

      Australia's Stolen Generation was also about assimilation. But it remains a textbook example of genocide.

      [–]aoiao -2 points-1 points ago

      from first contact (1511) to the closing of the frontier (1890), and determined that 7,193 people died from atrocities perpetrated by whites, and 9,156 people died from atrocities perpetrated by Native Americans.

      In that article it lists massacres perpetrated by Indians as well. Probably not the best link to use to argue genocide in America.

      [–]TomahawkDrop 4 points5 points ago

      You're reasoning depends on the assumption that the Auschwitz personnel did not have a concept that what they were doing was morally wrong.

      This is an assumption that I am unwilling to agree with. They may have been taught to accept what they were doing and to justify it as for the greater German good. However, this does not excuse them from their basic moral duties. I do agree with you that it is unfair to look at events in the past through the lens of our time and place, but environmental difference is not sufficient to downplay moral failings of past generations. Yes, they were part of a system. Yes, there is probably nothing any of them could have done to prevent what happened. But there they were there in that spot, doing what they did, even if only by circumstance.

      It may not be enough to say "The Nazis were evil", but it certainly should be said. They were not inherently evil, but by circumstance or otherwise, they committed immoral and evil acts. Call it what you will, but I'm alright with calling it evil.

      [–]ToiletRollTemple 1 point2 points ago

      Relevant Milgram experiment on whether these such people can be considered evil or just as human as the rest of us (spoiler: they're not evil).

      [–]ilovemarshall69 0 points1 point ago

      You explain what I think, and as a result I upvote you.

      Very well said.

      [–]corballer 0 points1 point ago

      the Milgrim experiments frightened me. To see people were easily manipulated by power. It's crazy

      [–]FRIENDLY_CANADIAN 1 point2 points ago

      Just to add to this, (and sorry to highjack) if anyone wants to really get a glimpse inside the mindset at the time, I recommend two books;

      "What we knew" by Johnson and Reuband compiles a number of interviews with Germans, Nazis and Jewish people to uncover how much each group really knew about what was going on.

      "The Nuremberg Interviews" by Leon Goldensohn is a compilation of the interviews of the Nazi higher ups by psychologists (Including Goering and Hess). It gives a chilling view inside the ideology and the firm beliefs they held.

      [–]pixeltehcat 0 points1 point ago

      Surely one good test of how right and good they thought their actions would be the degree to which they tried to keep their actions in the camps secret. If they really thought they were doing the world a huge favour in slaughtering the "untermensch" then why hide it? Why did they try to cover their tracks when it all fell apart? I can fully understand the idea of morality being so plastic in our minds, god knows there's ample evidence of the ease with which people can be convinced to commit truly repugnant acts in history, but I'm not convinced the people in this photo were completely unaware they were doing something horrible.

      [–]illaqueable 1 point2 points ago

      If you haven't already, check out the BBC documentary, Auschwitz; it's a six-part miniseries and it gives you a great deal of insight into how ludicrously skewed the Nazis' perspectives were, particularly those involved in concentration camps.

      [–]kingvolcano 0 points1 point ago

      Indeed, they didn't start their DAT thinking, 'oooh, today I'm going to do lots of evil things! 'Cause I'm bad to the bone!'. In their context they were just doing a job that needed to be done.

      [–]Fig1024 1 point2 points ago

      No matter what they think is good or evil, there's still such a thing as empathy. Anyone with empathy would have negative feelings toward harming others, even if those others are considered evil.

      For example, if we had Hitler hostage, most decent people would still not want to torture him or enjoy looking at human suffering.

      Maybe the real trick is in killing your sense of empathy and becoming a sociopath.

      [–]NeoM5 0 points1 point ago

      cumulative radicalization is fascinating

      [–]Iraqi272 -2 points-1 points ago

      Let us not forget that

      [–]Iraqi272 5 points6 points ago

      Oops. Let us not forget that the personnel who tortured prisoners at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo were and are today free to frollIck around. So are those who ordered them to do the torture. Also for hundreds of years good, god-fearing Christians could read the sermon on the mount and then go out to oversee their slaves.

      As an Iraqi, I saw people who would turn others to Saddam's secret police and who would go back home to their families and be great fathers. I am never shocked at what people are able to rational

      [–]frogstomp427 -1 points0 points ago

      It should be important to point out, though, that the people who tortured prisoners at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo didn't do brutal medical experiments on their victims, gas or incinerate them to death, starve them until they were walking skeletons, or toss babies up in the air for target practice.

      [–]ragingdobs 0 points1 point ago

      Not only that, but I can imagine that they embraced Nazism only to later learn it's true horrors, and then used moments like these to maintain some semblance of normalcy in an extraordinary situation.

      [–]IClogToilets 30 points31 points ago

      The women did not actually work IN the camp.

      A description of the photo:

      Several pages are devoted to a day trip for SS Helferinnen (female auxiliaries, young women who worked for the SS as communications specialists) on July 22, 1944. They arrive at Solahütte and run down a ramp accompanied to the music of an accordionist.

      [–]Not_A_Hipster_ 11 points12 points ago

      Were there no people who worked in communications in the camps? Seems like they would need communication specialists to keep train schedules and communicate with command.

      Just asking. Not trying to be a dick.

      [–]IClogToilets 0 points1 point ago

      It is a good question and the short answer is I'm not 100% sure. My assumption was it was kinda like summer camp where the boys had a field trip to see the girls.

      Another picture in the series shows the same girls getting out of the bus ready for their big day. They have it next to a similar picture of Jewish women getting out of a train being led into the camp. The caption says both pictures were taken a few miles from each other.

      [–]UltraMittens 32 points33 points ago

      This reminds me of the episode of Band of Brothers where they discover a camp a few miles out of town.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHcJtU9dr6I

      Later in the episode when Webster is in town and pulls the gun on the baker asking "why hasn't he smelled the bodies?" was chilling. To be so close and to not know/ claim ignorance about it is fucking horrifying.

      [–]Yearley 35 points36 points ago

      To characterize it as tragic would be an understatement, no doubt. But what could average civilians do? Maybe they could help the underground, or offer to hide Jews or other runaways in their barns, or donate to governments-in-exile.

      But what could a simple baker do about the smell and the gassings? There's nothing he could have done.

      And I would surmise he probably knew but when some foreign guy is sticking a gun in MY face, I sure as hell am pleading ignorance too.

      [–]Swazi666 17 points18 points ago

      Exactly. I think you can't ever blame someone for not being a hero.

      [–]jdepps113 3 points4 points ago

      Especially when being a hero in this case had a high risk of failure/getting caught. I mean, these people had families of their own to think about. Assuming this baker isn't buying into the Nazi propaganda, he still has to live in this place and can't really leave. In fact, if you don't buy in life is now harder, because you see, and are obviously deeply terrified by, the fact that your country has gone crazy, first, and then war arrived on your doorstep next.

      [–]found314 -4 points-3 points ago

      Seriously?

      Silence in the face of great evil is evil in itself.

      [–]penkap1 4 points5 points ago

      So, when was the last time you stopped evil?

      [–]BreeBree214 6 points7 points ago

      Sharing the Kony 2012 video... That counts, right?

      [–]penkap1 4 points5 points ago

      Exactly. Maybe drive a Prius or something.

      load more comments (15 replies)

        [–]Swazi666 -1 points0 points ago

        Seriously. Just because all these smart statements a easily typed sitting in a comfy heated home in front of a computer with a nice coffee and cookies. I think it's hard too judge morally if you haven't been in a comparable situation. Another important part is that most people in the world just don't give a fuck. Nowhere and everyday.

        [–]NeoM5 10 points11 points ago

        the Poles were no friends of the Jews. Most Poles saw the eradication of Jews as a positive thing.

        Plus, any helping of Jews was a 99% chance of death penalty.

        Actual quote from a Polish women in a supermarket during the 1960s. I was in Poland visiting camps and my guide shared it with me. Natives were incentivized to keep their mouths shut.

        "Everything is so expensive now. During the war I could turn in a Jewish child and get chocolate, sausage and coffee."

        [–]ColonelRuffhouse 1 point2 points ago

        Its not as if the Poles got off easy themselves, millions of poles were killed in the camps too. Hitler planned on killing 96% of the Polish people.

        [–]whip-poor-wont 7 points8 points ago

        God, the comments for that video are deplorable.

        [–]racoonpeople -2 points-1 points ago

        I am guessing they are not Obama voters.

        [–]Noxfag -1 points0 points ago

        That has nothing to do with anything.

        [–]racoonpeople -1 points0 points ago

        Are you saying racists are voting for Obama?

        [–]Noxfag 0 points1 point ago

        No?

        [–]CndiMrie 18 points19 points ago

        This is so strange. To see them having fun, hanging out, laughing together in such a huge friendly group... but then remembering what they did for a living during the day... I just can't. It's so fascinating and heartbreaking to look at this picture.

        [–]sethosayher 37 points38 points ago

        This seriously sends chills up my spine.

        [–]amisamiamiam 7 points8 points ago

        Think about how they felt. Something is missing here.

        [–]ToiletRollTemple 1 point2 points ago

        I really hope as many people as possible see this poem called Vultures by Chinua Achebe: it puts this picture into words better than in a way that, in my opinion, trumps the photo itself.

        [–]pundemonium 14 points15 points ago

        TIL how hearty laughs can be horrifying. Have an upvote, I feel this is the perfect material for r/HistoryPorn.

        [–]agus468 7 points8 points ago

        They were only humans, doing inhuman things.

        [–]penkap1 2 points3 points ago

        What they were dong was very human, historically speaking, at least.

        [–]CrookedNaysayer 8 points9 points ago

        The guy in the very middle looks a little like Hans Landa from Inglorious Basterds.

        [–]bobsagetfullhouse 3 points4 points ago

        The sad thing is these people genuinely thought that what they were doing was correct. They were happy because they felt that they were good people. And the thing is, if you were brought up exactly how they were and were surrounded by the same propaganda day in and day out, you would have the same mindset. You would see nothing wrong with it as well. I'm not defending them, but just like everyone else, they are a product of their environment.

        [–]Radegar 2 points3 points ago

        I would love to understand how german mind worked during these times, but I'm afraid I never will.

        [–]SpookyBlues 4 points5 points ago

        Not any differently then most people today. That's the scary part.

        [–]tlease181 2 points3 points ago

        I've always thought that likely anyone, given enough propaganda and coercion, is capable of terrible things.
        Its how badly these things haunt you that really test your own humanity. The fact that these people can go off and party amongst such suffering is despicable to me.

        [–]adenbley -1 points0 points ago

        it shouldn't be despicable to you, most humans would have done the same thing if put in the same situation. they were manipulated, as you said, and very likely didn't have a choice.

        [–]rcocman125 -1 points0 points ago

        Nahhh they have fun.

        [–]JoshIsNumber3 0 points1 point ago

        What happens at Auschwitz, stays at Auschwitz.

        [–]offensivegrandma 0 points1 point ago

        This is bone chilling. It's hard sometimes to imagine that the people of the Nazi party as regular people, but here they are having fun together like anyone else would. They did unspeakable things, but still went about their everyday lives as the rest of the world would. I wonder if any of these people photographed lived to see the aftermath.

        [–]pyroaries -1 points0 points ago

        Super interesting.

        [–]ZealousVisionary 1 point2 points ago

        I think what is so horrifying is how normal they look.

        [–]JillGr 0 points1 point ago

        To them, after over a decade of conditioning from their government, they would have seen their job no differently has others working in a slaughterhouse or something similar. There are many books you can buy that have copies of the letters the SS Men and other workers sent home to their families. In one in particular the father mentions how proud he is of his daughters grades but that his son will have to improve his cause education is important, and the rest of the letter is about how much he misses them and loves them

        [–]TheTartanDervish 1 point2 points ago

        One of the most difficult things for people to realize is that the "bad guys" still go home at night and tell their kids bedtime stories, play fetch with their dogs, worry about having the rent money together by the end of the month, and everything that the "good guys" do too. The line between "them" the "bad" guys and "us" the "good" guys is much thinner than most people realize, or care to understand.

        Interesting how the conversation here has focused on My Lai, Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, the Phillippine Wars, Indian Wars, etc... Americans are rank amateurs when it comes to mass atrocities compared to the Nazis, the Khmer Rouge, Chariman Mao in China, or Stalin.

        [–]Itza420 0 points1 point ago

        I recognize the man on the far left but am drawing a blank on his name. Can anyone chime in with some help?

        [–]eldonte -5 points-4 points ago

        What a bunch of dicks

        [–]danmocz -5 points-4 points ago

        They're probably laughing about puppies, kittens, and lollipops in this pic. Then when the work week rolls around they're still laughing about that stuff, while beating small children for no reason. Fucking dicks.

        edit:apparently talking shit about nazis is a bad thing.

        [–]admdelta 8 points9 points ago

        Reddit logic. How dare you make a post that does anything but lament the tragic condition of the human psyche and the complexity of our moral code!

        The reality is, these people murder for a living. And while their victims rot in a filthy camp surrounded by their dying loved ones, these assholes are having a great time at a retreat for the weekend. It's sick. And they are dicks.

        [–]reasonable_bill 1 point2 points ago

        How do you know they were Auschwitz personnel?

        [–]ME24601 6 points7 points ago

        The photo came from an album of photos owned by an SS officer. You can look at the entire album here.

        [–]cantankerix 1 point2 points ago

        I just spent the afternoon with a friend who lost relatives in Poland. Her Mother had told me the family story, which I always kept close to my heart. For all I know, they died at the hands of these very people. And now I'm looking at this picture.

        [–]goldenrod -5 points-4 points ago

        Many of the civilians in Germany had no idea their Government was mass murdering people. Even many soldiers in the lower ranks didn't know.

        [–]surrenderdorothy 7 points8 points ago

        I don't believe that is possible - the Night Of Broken Glass, November 1938, was widely reported as it happened - added to that all the subsequent rounding up, marching Jews through the streets to the trains, etc - did they think they were being sent to Butlin's holiday camp?

        [–]ME24601 1 point2 points ago

        A genocide on such a massive scale as this had never happened before. People knew that they were being moved to camps, but they didn't know that they were going to be killed.

        [–]surrenderdorothy 0 points1 point ago

        At some point the penny must have dropped

        [–]I_CATS 1 point2 points ago

        Yes, sending people to internment camps -> they are going to be killed. Internment of "enemy citizens" was common practice around that time, US did the same with Japanese.

        [–]surrenderdorothy 5 points6 points ago

        The US didn't then incinerate the Japanese.

        [–]I_CATS 4 points5 points ago

        And how were the German population supposed to know that was going to happen in Germany? They just saw their government doing the same what everyone else was doing at the time, gathering "enemy civilians" into camps.

        [–]surrenderdorothy 0 points1 point ago

        I am talking about sheer scale over a protacted period of time - even before war.

        [–]umbama -1 points0 points ago

        The mass of ordinary Germans did know about the evolving terror of Hitler's Holocaust, according to a new research study. They knew concentration camps were full of Jewish people who were stigmatised as sub-human and race-defilers. They knew that these, like other groups and minorities, were being killed out of hand. They knew that Adolf Hitler had repeatedly forecast the extermination of every Jew on German soil. They knew these details because they had read about them. They knew because the camps and the measures which led up to them had been prominently and proudly reported step by step in thousands of officially-inspired German media articles and posters according to the study, which is due to be published simultaneously in Britain and the US early next month and which was described as ground-breaking by Oxford University Press yesterday and already hailed by other historians.

        http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2001/feb/17/johnezard

        Still. You keep on apologising for them.

        [–]I_CATS 3 points4 points ago

        So, one guy makes a study that goes against the prevalent view among historians, he is right and the million other historians are wrong? Please. What next, one guy writes a study where he denies the entire holocaust and then we all should think that is the new truth?

        [–]PacmanUsuluteco 1 point2 points ago

        One source is certainly better than none, which is how many you have cited to back up your point of view.

        [–]umbama -1 points0 points ago

        Did you have a reasoned, considered and informed response to make to an important work of history by a respected historian?

        [–]I_CATS -1 points0 points ago

        I gather my information from multiple sources and place the weight on the prevalent consensus among historians. You seem to only look for studies that fit your personal anti-german hate-ideology.

        [–]umbama -1 points0 points ago

        Did you have a reasoned, considered and informed response to make to an important work of history by a respected historian?

        [–]goldenrod 0 points1 point ago

        They thought they were being deported.

        [–]surrenderdorothy 4 points5 points ago

        To where? The Nazi's had Einsatzgruppen (Mobile killing units) deployed throughout Europe. I don't believe that 6 million Jews, gypies, disabled could be slaughtered and the civilians and lower ranks not know about it. The German people were indoctrinated they knew what was going on and they turned a blind eye.

        [–]BeatlesForSale 1 point2 points ago

        They knew, but they didn't fully know. They knew something was happening, but you have to understand they feared for their life. If they got caught snooping around or asking the wrong questions it could mean the end for them

        [–]surrenderdorothy 1 point2 points ago

        I agree - they knew or were getting on with their own lives and chose not to think. A visit to the Simon Weinsthal Centre and even reading the Book Thief puts this into context.

        [–]SpookyBlues 1 point2 points ago

        It's easy to say this but distances were longer and a lot came out in the fifties that the general population didn't know about. Secrecy was one of most remarkable feats of the Nazi regime. Communists and Social Democrats were the first victims of the Nazi's, the people best organized and mobilized to make greater society more aware of what the Nazi's were doing and stop them. After annihilating the two most dangerous parties through murder and violence, going after more marginalized groups wasn't so hard. All the dissidents were either dead or had fled the country. Many of the brightest artists and writers and professors fled for greener pastures like the United States. There was no free press, very few telephones, very few automobiles and people who snooped around disappeared. So what the hell is some fat baker in some podunk town supposed to do precisely?

        [–]surrenderdorothy 1 point2 points ago

        I am not saying some fat baker in some podunk town could do anything - I am saying that fat baker probably made daily deliveries to Nazi's in those concentration camps - they didn't operate in a vacuum.

        [–]SpookyBlues 0 points1 point ago

        Obviously not, more then likely though a couple of soldiers went out to go get the delivery. But he could probably figure out that they weren't ordering enough to properly feed the prisoners they had. And he definitely knew something was wrong when they shrunk the order down just to feed the guard detail and no one else. I'm not saying he was ignorant, he knew enough not to look further. Who are we to say that we wouldn't have done exactly the same?

        [–]surrenderdorothy 0 points1 point ago

        That is my point. Not that they didn't know.

        [–]umbama 1 point2 points ago

        This isn't true. Where do we start...

        The location of some of the camps? The clear intentions of Hitler? The disappearance of all those Jewish people? The rumours?

        [–]BlackenedHeart -3 points-2 points ago

        "I was just doing my job."

        [–]PacmanUsuluteco -1 points0 points ago

        "I was just trying to avoid ending up in the same situation as the people I saw being tortured and killed" is more likely.

        [–]FlightsFancy 0 points1 point ago

        Do you offer that point as an explanation of their motives, or as a justification of their actions? Because either way, I'd question how much anyone in that photo really feared torture and execution. They might have had to do a lot of psychological and emotional gymnastics to be able to watch/facilitate the mass execution of so many men, women, and children, but I don't think any of the Auschwitz staff ever allowed themselves to identify with their victims in any way. If the people in the photo ever, even for an instant, considered that they would or could find themselves in the same position as the people they beat, starved, tortured and finally murdered, I doubt they could continue to keep all of that brutal machinery of extermination running.

        I mean, think about it. The very best, most efficient way to convince otherwise "normal" people that they are justified in killing, stealing, and murdering is to establish that the people they are brutalizing are not human. Most cultures on the planet practice this kind of conscious dehumanization of other groups of people, of course in different ways and to various degrees of success. I think believing in a) the righteousness of your own cause and b) the fundamental lack of humanity in your victims is essentially what allows you to look in the eyes of a group of people while you gas them to death, work them to death, or starve them to death.

        I don't know what that says about the human race. Is it a point in our favor that it takes very specific conditions - blind faith in our leader(s), extreme conditions of war and poverty, the rule of the mob or the presence of groupthink, and indoctrination into a system of socio-religious thought that encourages binary thinking and the application of cold, brutal logic - to convince a person to participate in the mass murder of millions? Or is it just too terrifying to consider that, given the right conditions, you or almost anyone you know would willingly participate in mass execution?

        [–]admdelta 1 point2 points ago

        People weren't exactly drafted into the Death's Head.

        [–]Weaseal -4 points-3 points ago

        I believe this belongs on /r/awwschwitz

        [–][deleted] ago

        [deleted]

        [–]Laslo_Jamf 18 points19 points ago

        This sub is for lovers of history who want to share and examine the long and complex history of civilization. Please fuck off back to the main default subs where childish, moronic, anti-Semitic, unintelligent, crass, terrible humor is the norm. This picture is nothing to joke about as those people perpetrated (literally) the holocaust. Your lack of respect when confronted with the historical evidence of the utter, hellish evilness we are capable of disgusts me.

        [–]Swazi666 14 points15 points ago

        People who are serious about history as a scientific discipline rarely use the words "hellish evilness" - if at all.

        [–]Calibansdaydream -4 points-3 points ago

        Look man, We all get the holocaust was horrible and unbelievable. I have studied WWII extensively, worked at a holocaust museum, and wrote several articles and created many exhibits on it. Do you ever wonder why some people choose to joke about it? Because it is so horrible, one has to make a joke about it. It's a defense mechanism. If you get offended, that's fine. But don't ever make the assumption that just because somebody makes a joke, doesn't mean they think the holocaust was funny. I personally wrote down large sections of a Holocaust survivor's life story as he dictated it to me. I listened and struggled through two hours a day for a week of him tearfully describing what happened to his friends and family. I helped him while he cried and laughed with him when he laughed. And I also made a joke lower down about the holocaust. Does the joke I made negate all the work I've done? Or MAYBE does joking about something not necessarily directly reflect one's true belief.

        [–][deleted] ago

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          [–]flyguysd 0 points1 point ago

          I hope they all got what was coming to them.

          [–]Offensive_Statement -2 points-1 points ago

          If this subreddit is history porn, then is Nazi stuff history cp?

          [–]YaBoiRichD 0 points1 point ago

          I still can't comprehend how an entire nation could turn so evil.

          [–]JillGr 1 point2 points ago

          It's unfair to say that about the entire nation. The nazi party did a real number on conditioning its people for over a decade before the war broke out. Children raised going to the Hitler Youth like our children go to cub scouts or brownies, and the media endlessly portraying Jews as greedy, dirty and untrustworthy people. Similar to how Allied propaganda posters portrayed Japanese or Germans during the war for us. And I'm sure if a young person today who wasn't American read and learned about the ways North America treated its citizens who were of Japanese descent would think very poorly of American and Canadian citizens. Forcing people who born in one of those two countries to live in those tragic cramped camps just because their face looked a certain way. Most were just as American as the family in Texas, being born in that country and being no more tied to Japan than a New England family would be to the UK. (I myself and only 3rd generation on my mum's side)...

          Don't get me wrong, what happened to the Jewish peopl along with the Slavs, Romani, Gypsies and too many others is one of the darkest spots in our recent history. But it's far too complicated and conplex to simply say that all Germans were monsters. After all, it's not like Hitler thought of himself as evil (sinisterly sitting in his swivel chair doing the scheming-hands gesture). He really did believe he was saving his people and country (sorry for any grammar/spelling mistakes, I'm using my phone to type this and my fingers are faster than it haha)

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