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5 out of 5 doctors agree. (imgur.com)

submitted ago by redlantern2814

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[–]i_registered 38 points39 points ago

Actually I'd bet quite a few doctors have said stuff along these lines.

Conditions do sometimes mysteriously resolve themselves or disappear, removing the need for surgery. Hardly unthinkable that a GP may have said something along the lines of "I guess your prayers were answered", especially if he's religious and knows the patient is.

[–]redlantern2814[S] 3 points4 points ago

I completely agree that a doctor would say something like that. However this was meant for humor, and exaggeration helps. The Story of Reddit.

[–]moonflower 7 points8 points ago

This would be the top comment if the majority of this forum valued rational thinking ... although if the majority of this forum valued rational thinking, this submission would have been downvoted off the page

[–]FickleWalrus 2 points3 points ago

Of course, blaming a specific remission on 'prayer,' especially given the outcome of those studies which have examined the efficacy of prayer, is pretty astonishingly foolish. This is an instance of people imagining doctors as being more consistently rational than they actually are. I think that's a forgivable error.

[–]Nanocyborgasm 1 point2 points ago

As a doctor, I can readily refute this.

[–]Chikufujin 0 points1 point ago

mysteriously biologically, we don't know why the body does what it does except to survive

[–]TheWhiteVanMan 32 points33 points ago

There are only 4 doctors in the picture.

[–]xDatBear 30 points31 points ago

The 5th one took the picture, but he agrees as well.

[–]Sharain 9 points10 points ago

The fifth is the one looking up at them.

[–]USELESS_PHOTOSHOP 8 points9 points ago

The 5th Doctor is Jesus.

also:

http://i.imgur.com/No68M.png - http://i.imgur.com/yGp1R.png

[–]I_Talk_To_Me 1 point2 points ago

lolwutafaggot

[–]MasterA6 1 point2 points ago

The last one is getting the Trident gum.

[–]redlantern2814[S] 0 points1 point ago

In the moment 5 just sounded better. Like 1 more... Better?

[–]akpak 0 points1 point ago

I think I looked around that picture, like Picard in the hands of Cardassians, for 3 or 4 minutes looking for the 5th doctor.

Goddamit man, THERE ARE FOUR DOCTORS.

[–]voxels 13 points14 points ago

Prayer is clinically shown to do nothing for a patient.

[–]Frankenfish 0 points1 point ago

While I agree with the idea that prayer isn't effective, I feel like the ideas behind these studies are flawed. It seems like it involves more than just praying. Also, there is nothing wrong with praying anyways, as if you aren't the doctor, there isn't much else you can do

It's exciting for atheists to see things like this, but I just don't think it disproves anything.

[–]redscream 0 points1 point ago

Did you read the study reports, especially the STEP study?

It pretty directly proves that prayer has no effect, or a negative effect on a patient if the patient knows they are being prayed for.

[–]Frankenfish 1 point2 points ago

The problem is that it treats prayer like it's directly correlated to if a patient gets better. Which is not what prayer is supposed to do.

Nobody really expects prayer to act like medicine. The study relies on saying a spefic phrase, as if that act's like an administered dose

However, it's the only way to scientifically measure a metaphysical concept. Science can't do that. Anything metaphysical has to be ignored by science because it can't be tested. So we are left with this. I don't think the study really shows anything. It's meaningless

[–]redscream 0 points1 point ago

Nobody really expects prayer to act like medicine.

This is patently false, my friend.

I don't know where you are from, but from where I am from (Southern US), people believe that prayer has definite, measurable effects. People here believe that prayer literally acts like a medicine.

I know... it blows my mind as well.

[–]voxels 0 points1 point ago

It's exciting for atheists to see things like this, but I just don't think it disproves anything.

It's incorrect to wrap this up in religion or atheism. Even though the study is about prayer, this isn't a study on whether there is or is not a 'higher power'. That is untestable in the same way that you can't test for 'Santa Claus'. (No disrespect intended, but as you know some people believe in Santa Claus.)

Science is the observation of reality, that's why it's so important - so comparing or wrapping it up in theism is not only incorrect, but entirely misguided. It's why teaching creationism next to evolution is utterly bonkers, one is a "belief" taken from a literal interpretation of an abstract patchwork of ancient stories. The other are observations on reality, that we still have with us today as a record. (A clever person would have said that evolution is 'God's way', but I digress from the point.)

A major failing of teaching in the USA is the establishment that a persons 'beliefs' are just as important (if not more important) than observed reality, a.k.a science. Science isn't a set of 'beliefs', it's a tested set of outcomes, it persists as true whether or not the audience understands or 'believes' in it. A person's personal views are irrelevant to an established body of evidence.

There is no room for referring(or teaching!) the untested or untestable in an environment that purports to be teaching observed reality.

[–]akpak 1 point2 points ago

As the granddaughter of a Christian Scientist I never met (who allowed herself to die of cancer rather than seek medical treatment), I concur.

[–]djfakey -1 points0 points ago

I'm a person of science and not religious, if anything a buddhist; I work in a research lab dealing with cancer, but having taken a couple of ethics courses in terms of spirituality and medicine, I think there is a place for prayer.
Do I really believe someone's prayer has directly cured someone? No, not really, but do I believe prayer can help? Sure. Prayer along with anything else an individual might do to feel better, can surely help the body out. Say instead of prayer, which makes a person maybe feel better, a person plays video games - to keep their mind at peace. There have been studies already linking depression and cancer. Depression can lead to the release of inflammatory cytokines that can possibly, in turn start a cycle of feedback to tumor cells. I just sat in on a seminar of a physician from Univ. of Miami that said he used to just blow off people coming in blaming their shitty turn of events in life for a relapse in cancer -husband left them, son doing drugs, etc. After more publications and science coming out linking cytokines, (e.g. IL6) to inflammation and in turn cancer, he can believe it.

How does this tie into prayer? About doing something that helps a person feel better about their situation, IMO can help the body heal.

[–]voxels 2 points3 points ago

First up, I didn't down vote you, you'll find much of what I've written below supports your view.

If a religious person believes that a superior power is taking care of them, this can resolve their stress/anxiety and make the physicians job of administering care more efficient.

Praying for others to get better is clinically shown to do nothing. However a religious person praying for themselves could render some benefits by reducing their stress/anxiety, this is already known. Non-religious persons find similar solace by checking the qualifications and history of the physician. (Which is a better avenue for those nervous motivations.)

Ideally the patient will be better off if anti-anxiety medication doesn't have to be administered on top of any other treatments rendered.

Often the practice of medicine yields uncertain results, particularly in fields were medical understanding is still developing (such as cancer.) Sometimes an atypical result occurs and it's easier to explain to the overtly religious that a higher power could be looking out for them, rather than explaining the frontier of medical knowledge. This is just bedside manner, the relationship between the physician and patient is very important, the physician will adapt their manner of speaking, religiosity, etc. to best convey the information to the patient.

I can assure you that physicians aren't referring to superior beings in discussions with their peers/reporting. Rather, some novel results are a new avenue for medical research.

It turns out that those 'miracles' are simply discoveries yet to be made.

[–]BassitoneR 1 point2 points ago

I can assure you that physicians aren't referring to superior beings in discussions with their peers/reporting. Rather, some novel results are a new avenue for medical research. It turns out that those 'miracles' are simply discoveries yet to be made.

Nailed it. It's a shame that some people revert back to the argument from ignorance of "I don't know how this person could have been cured; therefore, it's a miracle of God." It's scary to imagine where we'd be as a society (in terms of scientific/technological progress) if everyone thought like that.

[–]voxels 0 points1 point ago

It's scary to imagine where we'd be as a society (in terms of scientific/technological progress) if everyone thought like that.

You've eloquently summarised a counterpoint to how teaching religion alongside observed science is a viewed by some as a harmless practice. As you've noted, it's not harmless, it undermines the scientific method. "Here ladies and gents, we'll test everything - except if it's your religion, that gets a free pass to the fact book, or passed off as divine intervention."

[–]lazyatheist 0 points1 point ago

Some studies have shown that prayer can actually be detrimental to patients.

[–]djfakey 0 points1 point ago

Of course there may be studies to go both ways. I mean look at all the science based studies of drugs that come out that had to be retracted or removed from the market because of the MAJOR detrimental effects to patients. I work in cancer, so I am familiar with some stuff, for example MMP therapy failures, yet the studies are there to support that this approach should work.

[–]lazyatheist 1 point2 points ago

Yeah, I have read a lot lately about how medical studies are corrupt and even doctors can't get reliable information nowdays.

[–]purplepatch 4 points5 points ago

I had a patient the other day who was pregnant and a month past her due date. The baby was distressed and needed to be delivered. She refused a Caesarian as whatever happened was "God's will". Well God must have hated that baby because it was eventually stillborn.

People are such fucking idiots.

[–]rushmc1 0 points1 point ago

Sounds like a good thing, if it was going to be raised by the likes of her.

[–]khanfusion 40 points41 points ago

ACTUALLY.

So, um, not a religious person. But I can attest to a bizarre incident in which my infant cousin had a mass appear in his gut when he was quite young (like, 8 weeks old) that mysteriously vanished a few weeks later. There's probably a very good scientific reason what exactly happened (pretty sure the doctor's didn't biopsy.... kid was too young), but regardless... the whole thing was kind of written off as a miracle by the family and tending physicians.

So, tl:dr - strange shit happens. Sometimes the doctors just roll with it.

[–]Degn101 31 points32 points ago

This is the god of the gaps. Something happens that we can't explain? God did it. This is fine for a while I guess, but the things we don't know are shrinking, thereby removing the possibility of such a god. I understand your point, but that should not be the only reason you believe something supernatural since it is an area bound to shrink (the not knowing part).

[–]hopelessatusernames 8 points9 points ago

It couldn't get more nonsensical.

We don't know how it happened, therefore we know how it happened ("God").

Talk about a non sequitur.

[–]Glayden 1 point2 points ago

Here's the funny thing: it's not just "Something happens that we can't explain? God did it." It's "Something happens that isn't bad that we can't explain? God did it."

All the credit but none of the responsibility is attributed to God.

[–]godsfordummies 21 points22 points ago

Could be a cyst, they can appear and disappear quite fast.

[–]greenspans 3 points4 points ago

Could have been His spaghetti majesty choosing to present Himself as a smudge in an MRI.

[–]ReservoirDog316 6 points7 points ago

Yeah when my mom was dying of cancer a few weeks ago and was sedated, the nurse in the ICU section was telling us of all the unexplainable things that happen with people at that stage that she saw.

Bed ridden people that just get up and walk completely normal and stuff like that. Stuff that she said just happen and the doctors can't ever explain it.

Nothing like that happened for my mommy though. But yeah, the OP probably hasn't talked to many ICU nurses cause nearly all of them in that hospital had those stories.

[–]redlantern2814[S] 0 points1 point ago

OP hasnt talked to many ICU nurses, but it is irrelevant because "miracles" after treatment have nothing to do with the post. Asking for miracles(prayers) instead of treatment(surgery) is what the words say in the image.

[–]ReservoirDog316 0 points1 point ago

Well the post is saying is there's no need for the doctors to try and cure you. You somehow got cured by prayer or something.

Also, my sister's friend's husband accidentally got an eyefull of some kinda acid not too long ago. The entire eye was damaged and the doctors said he'd probably never see out of that eye ever again. A month later his eye was nearly back to 100% and the doctors all said it was a miracle and they wouldn't need treatment.

So, yeah.

[–]FickleWalrus 1 point2 points ago

Why would this be counter to the OP's message? Spontaneous remissions happen, of course; the OP's message was that doctors don't proffer that these remissions are the result of intercessory prayer. This is inaccurate, so the OP is wrong, but not for your reasons.

I would also moderately object to your declaring that doctors 'can't ever explain it.' Some of these outcomes we cannot explain yet, and even those may be a relative minority given the tendency to avoid forcing often invasive tests on a patient when a positive medical outcome has already been achieved.

[–]ReservoirDog316 0 points1 point ago

Well either way, the doctors were dumbfounded over some stuff.

shrug

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      [–]ChaoticAgenda 2 points3 points ago

      Yeah, I had a friend with an ovarian tumor. She got extremely lucky and ended up with an ovarian torsion (her ovary twisted and kept itself sealed off) as well. Since the tumor was sealed off it had a much smaller chance of spreading. From her accounts the doctor kept pushing that it must have been due to a miracle.

      [–]mind_twin 14 points15 points ago

      Why didn't God just not give her a tumor in the first place?

      [–]ChaoticAgenda 1 point2 points ago

      Because mysterious ways

      [–]TheGoomba 1 point2 points ago

      I'm glad your friend is safe but doctors and gods really shouldn't mix. Seems like a great way to pass the buck when someone fucks up.

      [–]TheMortalOne 5 points6 points ago

      Miracle doesn't necessarily imply god. Could just mean a very low chance positive random event.

      [–]TheGoomba 0 points1 point ago

      The definition of miracle includes the expectation that divine intervention was involved.

      [–]TheMortalOne -1 points0 points ago

      definition from M-W online dictionary:

      1: an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs

      2: an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment

      While it's true one of the definitions includes the expectation, it's not exactly the only definition of the word.

      load more comments (2 replies)

        [–]Bravetoasterr 2 points3 points ago

        My mother works with a respected doctor in the ER of a respected hospital network. He says he does it all for God and for the opportunity to help people. He's an atypically religious (dude thinks that because laminin resembles a cross it's proof of intelligent design,) but he's an effective doctor.

        If I go to the ER the man can operate on me all he feels necessary. I care more about his ability as a doctor than whether or not he has imaginary friends and deluded idea of how the universe was formed.

        [–]diametric 0 points1 point ago

        I don't, if I'm laying on the operating table dying, and the surgeon can't figure out whats going wrong, I want the surgeon that knows when I die, that's it, it's over, and does everything in his power to save me. Not the surgeon that puts in his good effort, but goes "welp its in God's hands now."

        [–]xodus112 2 points3 points ago

        Just because you're a religious surgeon doesn't mean you don't value maintaining human life. Your job as a surgeon is to save lives not what's going on in the supernatural. I identify myself as an agnostic but it's always amazing to me how people around here think that just because a doctor were religious that means he's only going to give a 3/4 effort because his god is handling the rest.

        [–]diametric 0 points1 point ago

        I'm not saying all doctors are like this, but when there are so many reports of religious doctors that refuse to prescribe birth control, or perform life saving abortions, it makes you wonder how many of the more moderate doctors may let certain things be in "god's hands."

        Either a religious doctor has conviction in his religion, and truly believes that, or he doesn't and gives his full effort because he knows nothing is "meant" to be.

        [–]xodus112 0 points1 point ago

        Those are doctors with an agenda and there is no reason to speak as if they are anywhere near being common or the majority among doctors who happen to be believers. Obviously if there's a doctor out there who won't perform life saving abortions you shouldn't go to him.

        This board is often as bad as most fundies we make fun of when it comes to making generalizations. I've met many religious doctors and my father and uncle are among them. They both go to church every week and both do whatever it takes to save lives and the notion that they won't give full effort is asinine. If Christians behaved the way you are saying you would never see a Christian accept chemotherapy or anything else. Religious people fight to save their own lives and others just as hard as anyone else.

        load more comments (1 reply)

          [–]Bravetoasterr 0 points1 point ago

          I find this akin to a christian refusing to be treated by an atheist doctor because, "he doesn't believe he has any consequence for his action. Therefore I won't get the best care."

          [–]rushmc1 0 points1 point ago

          False equivalence. The fact is, religious doctors bring a lot of baggage into the operating room that atheist doctors simply don't (they may bring plenty of their own, but not of that particular type).

          [–]i_registered 0 points1 point ago

          "The fact is..." proceeds to clearly give an opinion

          All doctors have different levels of baggage, regardless of religion or lack thereof and how that affects their choices with treatment probably won't be predictable.

          [–]NeverAsTired 1 point2 points ago

          Doctor here - I would love it if God started paying some of my malpractice insurance.

          [–]redscream 0 points1 point ago

          You'll see a lot of religious doctors. Many people go into the medical field because they see the help they give people to be a calling from God. I mean, silly is silly and all, but it helps to take what a religious doctor says with a grain of salt.

          [–]ZuFFuLuZ 1 point2 points ago

          Yeah, they just roll with it. But that's it. If the parents want to believe it was a miracle, so be it. The doctors' job was done. No need to start a religious discussion about it.

          [–]DrMarklar 6 points7 points ago

          As a future doc, I have been taught to act this way. There really shouldn't be any pride involved. It really doesn't irk me if a family wants to chalk it up to god or miracles, as long as I feel comfortable with the care I've provided.

          [–]redscream 2 points3 points ago

          Good on ya, Doc.

          Even though your username is a bit premature ;)

          [–]DrMarklar 2 points3 points ago

          Haha! Yeah I figured I'd have it for a while

          [–]ceterum 1 point2 points ago

          People have to realize that tumors pop up ALL THE TIME, like dozens every day in a normal healthy person. We are constantly assaulted by chemicals, bacteria, radiation, simple errors in day-to-day metabolism, free radicals, blah blah over trillions of cells that are constantly corrected by internal mechanisms and plain ol' white blood cells that not only kill external pathogens but self-made cancers. There are redundancies after redundancies of lines of defense to prevent cancer, so many things (various levels of genes, cell machinery, local cell environment, cell-mediated/humoral innate/adaptive immune systems) have to go wrong. For example, most cancers (minus a few exceptions) form via the multiple-hit hypothesis wherein 6-8 or more (of just the named proto-oncogenes/tumor suppressor genes) genes have to be mutated all together to even start the cancer process, which usually requires shitty genes to start with from your parents, a lifetime of smoking or drinking, too much sun exposure, and then a bunch of TSA scans or something. And they all have to converge on one cell, otherwise the cancer never starts.

          Sorry for rambling.

          [–]meatwad75892 0 points1 point ago

          Strange shit does happen, and I attribute it all to chance.

          I was in a wreck back when I was 16. Friend rear-ended an 18-wheeler, we were going about 60MPH, the truck going about 20MPH. I didn't have my seatbelt on, and I flew head first into the windshield. I snapped my C1 and C2 vertebrae in about 3 spots. I might have nearly bled out from the head wound, they never told me one way or the other. The doctor misdiagnosed me with whiplash, sent me home after 3 days with a broken neck(we found out it was broken about a month later at UAB). I recovered after zero surgery, with no paralysis, no major problems, and my range of motion is pretty good these days(I'm 24 now). I get a stiff neck and some "squirty" sensation in my neck maybe once every few weeks, but that's all. No big deal.

          My survival was physics being on my side when I flew into the windshield, luck, and emergency responders doing a quick, awesome job. I've watched very good friends of mine die from much less severe accidents.

          [–]MightyMight619 1 point2 points ago

          I'm not religious either and over heard of similar cases. I saw an interesting documentary about people being cured by some diseases through meditation. I'm not saying prayers do it but the mind is more powerful than we give it credit for.

          load more comments (8 replies)

            [–]hoka_moka 15 points16 points ago

            a few doctors I work with are quite religious. I remember doing an ultrasound on an inpatient with severe leg pain, the doctor was behind a curtain talking to another patient saying something along the line about her fate being in the hands of god.

            [–]ckb614 3 points4 points ago

            My dad was a Catholic priest before becoming a doctor.

            [–]imobviouslytrolling 0 points1 point ago

            So he became a peadiotrician?

            [–]rushmc1 0 points1 point ago

            Nice spelling.

            [–]imobviouslytrolling 0 points1 point ago

            I put the sexy in dislexia

            [–]complex_reduction 16 points17 points ago

            Being religious and being insane are not always the same. A religious doctor is not the same as a person who does nothing whatsoever assuming their injuries will magically disappear.

            That said, to be frank, I would not want a religious doctor. I want a hardcore atheist doctor who understands 100% how important it is they don't kill me, given this is the only life I'll have.

            [–]taranaki 12 points13 points ago

            You would be surprised at how many creationist doctors there actually are. I can think of 3 colleagues off the top of my head. Good doctors too who know what the are talking about when it comes to just about everything except evolution and geological time. One is a surgeon who has the steadiest fucking hands you will ever see. The other two are "just" internal medicine but I would trust my kids with either.

            In the end, if you are truely an atheist due to critical thought and believe that religious people believe things without evidence, then you should be choosing the best doctor based on outcomes and experience, not how old they think the earth is or where you go after you die. Those are surface issues. If anything you are following many of the same fallacies a religious person might.

            TL;DR: Lots of good religious doctors. If you value evidence, choose the best doctor based on tangible outcomes, not what they believe about an afterlife

            [–]TheBrownie 5 points6 points ago

            Doctors are one of the most religious groups. Working with sick people and seeing so many people die really makes you believe in a higher power. Anyways you don't know that this is the only life you have, it's realistic to believe it but not a true statement.

            [–]ffca 12 points13 points ago

            I am in the minority of doctors who are atheists. Especially the older generation. From what I see, they are pretty involved in their churches.

            This is America though.

            [–]magma_asp 2 points3 points ago

            According to that article you posted, no. In the US, 76% of physicians were religious in 2005. Yet in 2008, 76% of the population was Christian, let alone any type of religion, so this means the proportion of doctors that are religious would be slightly smaller than average compared to the general population.

            I also have no idea why seeing so many sick and dying people would make you believe in a higher power. My experience of it has just fortified my atheist beliefs. I also have a family member who is a surgeon, and he's one of the most atheistic people I know.

            [–]redscream 0 points1 point ago

            I do think that MDs have a higher chance of being religious, but not because of seeing people die all of the time. I would think that most were religious BEFORE attending Medical school. I remember back when I was a fundie it was akin to going to Seminary. God's calling to help the sick and all that.

            [–]ArchangelleOPisAfag 6 points7 points ago

            I'd like to see stats for this, because it is very well known that the more educated one is, the less likely he/she will be religious.

            [–]TheBrownie 1 point2 points ago

            Why don't people google it themselves instead of expecting people to google it for them. Doctors are a special case, when you see people die on a regular basis it makes you more religious. I can't find the article/video because I learned it like years ago... this is okay though.

            http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2005/08/01/prsa0801.htm

            [–]Malarious 9 points10 points ago

            When you make an unsupported claim, the burden of proof lies with you. Asking for evidence is completely reasonable.

            [–]TheHairyManrilla 5 points6 points ago

            You know, I don't have a source for this, aside from one commenter on another thread who said he's a paramedic, but it still makes perfect sense.

            Here it goes: The only people in the world who have a problem with family members praying for their loved ones in the hospital, or thanking God for healing, are people on this subreddit. That's it. Doctors, nurses, paramedics, emt's, it's just not an issue for them. It's only an issue for the keyboard warriors here.

            I have no proof for any of that, but it sounds perfectly reasonable.

            [–]TheBrownie 2 points3 points ago

            Of course it's completely reasonable, but a simple Google search suffices. I mean I could reasonably ask for source for every unsupported claim on reddit, but I don't. if I don't believe it, I google it.

            I mean I could go on ask reddit/science and as for source of every factual claim they make.

            [–]glaux 11 points12 points ago

            On /r/askscience the highest rated comments often contain sources before anyone has to ask. It serves at least two purposes.

            1. It limits the risk of spreading common misconceptions.

            2. Google does not have all the answers. If a person is highly knowledgeable on a subject, chances are high that this person knows good sources that won't show among the results of a simple Google search.

            It is perfectly reasonable and not lazy at all to ask the OP for sources. The quality of the discussion and thread in general is much higher when the claims are backed up by sources, hyperbole and memes have a hard time when the focus is on facts.

            [–]kent_eh 0 points1 point ago

            And I could spend the rest of my life researching other peoples' claims.

            Or they could simply provide justification for their own assertions.

            [–]PositivelyClueless 2 points3 points ago

            Why wouldn't seeing innocent people die cause you to become antitheistic/misotheistic/dystheistic?

            [–]Grumpy_Atheist 0 points1 point ago

            I agree that if each person Googled, they'd probably have less questions. However, sometimes it's helpful to see the exact source the OP used, simply so people can make their arguments (for or against) based on that specific source.

            [–]TheBrownie 1 point2 points ago

            Here... I'll show you first hand how annoying it can be to expect OP to find a reasonable source for them by asking you for the source for a claim you made.

            http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/10vnxz/gervais_on_burden_of_proof/c6h7qmf

            [–]phillycheese 0 points1 point ago

            Mail out surveys are terrible, terrible ways to get a good sample. Massive responder bias. When you receive a survey regarding faith who do you think is more likely to respond? The religious or non religious people?

            [–]TheBrownie 0 points1 point ago

            i would like to see a source on this.

            [–]phillycheese 0 points1 point ago

            http://www.hindawi.com/journals/nrp/2011/987924/

            Or you could use common sense.

            [–]TheBrownie 0 points1 point ago

            This said that there are problems with that survey not that it's a terrible way to get a good sample. Every sampling method has it's problems. I would like to see a source why Religious people would more likely respond giving that bias.

            [–]phillycheese 0 points1 point ago

            Did you read the article?

            [–]redscream 1 point2 points ago

            Just anecdotal, but I've known a LOT of very religious doctors. There does seem to be an industry-specific rise in religious belief in the field.

            My explanation? As an ex-fundie I remember that wanting to become a doctor was right up there with wanting to be a pastor in the eyes of the religious. They believe it is their calling from God to take care of the sick.

            [–]GrandfatherFucker 0 points1 point ago

            What sort of fucked up definition of 'true' are you using?

            [–]TheBrownie -1 points0 points ago

            That there isn't any reasonable way of determining that this is indeed the only life you get. If someone were asked to prove that they'd fail spectacularly.

            [–]cardinalwolsey 0 points1 point ago

            lol you idiot. Don't you realize that people want to become doctors because of the bible. You can't even get in to medical school without some form of charity. Know why? Because medicine and christianity are that fucking close.

            In fact if you did study evolution you would say, 'why the fuck try?' to prolonging the life of a random 68 year old alcoholic with a blocked coronary artery for another 2 years. Becausei f you did study evolution and didn't have some magic sky fairy telling you that helping strangers is good you would simply see it through the lense of senescence and realize that old people drop like flies regardless of $45,000 surgeries.

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                [–]elperroborrachotoo 2 points3 points ago

                ratheism classics reruns?

                [–]Tranejam 1 point2 points ago

                People who allow themselves and their loved ones to grow ill or die due to strong religious beliefs deserve everything that comes their way. I see it as a modern form of natural selection, you know weed out the weak ones and leave the strong.

                [–]ripewdecay 2 points3 points ago

                My boyfriend went to see a doctor about an old knee injury (via a drunk driver) and when he saw the Jesus with surgeon portrait hanging in his office http://tblankinchip.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/jesus-doctor-healing.jpg he just walked out without a word.

                [–]rushmc1 0 points1 point ago

                As should anyone. Good on him.

                [–]Grinstall 5 points6 points ago

                This was Rick Perry's plan to bring healthcare costs down wasn't it?

                [–]TheRepostReport 1 point2 points ago

                title comnts points age /r/
                Good news you have been healed by your family's prayers (x-post from r/funny) 5coms 231pts 11dys AdviceAtheists
                Good news! 2coms 1pt 12dys pics
                Good news! 182coms 432pts 12dys funny

                [–]akpak 0 points1 point ago

                You're doing [redacted]'s work, son.

                [–]CaseyJ242424 7 points8 points ago

                Science. It works.

                [–]TerseAndLaconic 5 points6 points ago

                My mother is a strict catholic and was praying in the hospital for her dying father. The doctor (a Sikh) said a short prayer with her and held her hand while she cried. It was a touching moment. With that short prayer the doctor provided comfort to a heartbroken woman in a way that medicine cannot. Providing care sometimes means looking beyond science for a method of really connecting with your patients on a personal level.

                [–]Molkin 7 points8 points ago

                I respect this doctor. That prayer had a measurable effect on the woman in her period of grief.

                [–]ceterum 2 points3 points ago

                It's just good customer service. Medicine is a business like any other. People love amenities, free shit, and people that pay attention to them telling them they're the best and that they're always right.

                [–]derelicthat 1 point2 points ago

                No. It's about realizing that patients are in an incredibly vulnerable place, as is anyone who cares about that patient. Even for little things, health care workers have access to people and information that is incredibly sensitive and should never be abused; this includes knowledge of their religious beliefs. I'm an atheist, and in my time in the ED, I've prayed with a lot of people. Not because of customer service or any of that bullshit, because they were vulnerable, and that would help them. There's a time and a place for religious debate, and that's not during medical care.

                [–]TerseAndLaconic 1 point2 points ago

                Medicine, in my country, is not a business like any other. edit* also the doctor was a Sikh who had religious convictions of his own, he was definitely being sincere.

                [–]imagine22jc 2 points3 points ago

                This reminds me of when my best friend's dad had a brain tumor and they were going to perform the brain surgery for it's removal. Well I asked a friend, at the time i was somewhat still religious, to pray for him and that he made it. The friend I asked was dating a super overly religious cult guy. She looked at me with the most serious face and said, "Don't worry. By the time insert name and I are done praying, he won't have a tumor anymore!" I said sure and went in my room. The night before the surgery I walked out into the kitchen and said.. "Oh by the way, my friend's dad still has the tumor. Funny how all that praying didn't make it disappear huh? I hope he makes it through tomorrow. Goodnight." She for once was speechless.

                [–]Molkin 1 point2 points ago

                I have found a way to mentally navigate that one. The friend just keeps praying until the surgery is finished. Then the tumor is removed by doctors because she was praying. Therefore, prayer removed the tumor. If the worst happens she will blame the failure on not praying hard enough. Therefore, more prayer would have removed the tumor.

                [–]imagine22jc 0 points1 point ago

                Good way at looking at it but she meant that the tumor would be gone way before the surgery.

                [–]C_IsForCookie 2 points3 points ago

                Tell that to the lady who drinks her own pee on the strange addiction show.

                [–]alittler 2 points3 points ago

                5/5 doctors agree that no doctor said that ever?

                [–]-Hastis- 1 point2 points ago

                Except doctors that say it's a miracle and that they can't medically explain it, when someone suddenly get well from a previously diagnosed problem...

                Then the guy go tell everyone at his church about a miracle confirmed by the supposedly atheist doctor...

                [–]rasputine 5 points6 points ago

                This is true in a few cases:

                1. On television

                2. Idiot doctors.

                Decent doctors know about remission. They don't think it's magical.

                [–]Mgogol -2 points-1 points ago

                Decent doctors know about remission? Do you have any idea what you're talking about? You actually think that there are doctors practicing medicine in the U.S. who are unfamiliar with remission?

                [–]GrandfatherFucker 1 point2 points ago

                If they attribute it to a 'miracle', then obviously yes.

                [–]taranaki -2 points-1 points ago

                You have no idea what you are talking about

                [–]Dragember 3 points4 points ago

                If a doctor said that I can guarantee you he is not Atheist. If he was Atheist he would say something like, "it's a medical mystery!", then attempt to figure out what caused this mysterious cure.

                [–]TheOneWhoKnocksBitch 0 points1 point ago

                Implying that religious people are not curious when it comes to science at all. Man, fuck you all.

                [–]Plastastic 1 point2 points ago

                /r/atheism; misunderstanding prayer since [DATE OMITTED DUE TO EXCESSIVE LEVELS OF BRAVERY]

                [–]logicalrody1 0 points1 point ago

                Truth: None of these doctors hate religion as much as the poorly educated person who probably made this image.

                [–]Sharain 1 point2 points ago

                Yeah, I can't do other then laugh whenever I see people who claim to be healed without the use of any medication or other form of treatment. "I was blind, but Jesus touched me, and now I can see!" Giiiurk! No, you just blinked!

                [–]cassus_fett 0 points1 point ago

                ok im in hostile territory here but ill just speak the truth and see what happens. a few years ago my mother developed May-Thurner Syndrome in her leg and went in to have stints put in her leg, the stints would keep her veins open and allow blood to flow and any clots to pass through and not cause a pulmonary embolism. a month or so later, she went in to have the stints checked out and her doctor told her that the stints had actually collapsed after the surgery and she should have died within 24 hours of this happening. instead, her body had created a whole delta network of veins around the affected area and saved her life. about 7 doctors came into her room that day and looked at her chart because something this big and fast this is completely unheard of in the medical word and all of the doctors were completely puzzled by it and 3 of them even said God was looking out for her...just saying that the body (or God) can heal itself when modern medicine fails

                [–]simroku 7 points8 points ago

                I'm sorry to hear about your mother's condition. I suffer from a clotting disease that required me to get stents (at 16!) as well, so I certainly sympathize. I'm glad she got better, truly.

                While I hate to say this, have you given any consideration to how many people died of the same reason? I mean, your mom lived... and millions of people have died from the same cause. I respectfully would like to point out my belief that "miracles" are nothing more then random chance. Of course, your beliefs are your beliefs. I merely offering another explanation.

                [–]Molkin 3 points4 points ago

                I appreciate you coming here to tell your story, but I am skeptical. If this is true, and it isn't something that occurs naturally, you might have a genuine case for a miracle. I would recommend contacting the James Randi Foundation. They will be able to help you with the steps to verify this, and if it is genuine, there is a cash prize. If the money isn't a motivation, you can donate it to a charity.

                [–]ceterum 7 points8 points ago

                Weird shit like this happens all the time in medicine. The body is just still far too complex for us to understand. The phenomenon he's talking about is very common (angiogenesis) especially among veins, which is why we can take veins to graft elsewhere (e.g., bypass after a heart attack) or bits of skin, or just tie off/burn vessels that bleed during surgery. Think about your knees/elbows: as they bend they constantly cut off blood supply to the rest of your forearm/leg, but because of the numerous anastamoses ("delta network of veins") that constantly spring up there are tons of collaterals and detours.

                In this anecdote this patient happened to be lucky. Stents don't prevent emboli (clots that break free) from forming; in fact, they are a very good cause of them (since they are a foreign body and cause turbulence in the vessel, clots form there all the time which is why anyone on stents needs to be on anticoagulation as well). You might be thinking of an IVC or Greenfield filter. DVTs (deep vein thrombosis, AKA clots in your deep leg veins) are pretty common and like simroku said, a lot of people die from them but then again just as many people get tiny ones that are simply resorbed by your body without anyone knowing. The reason why medicine is so hard (and why Watson hasn't put all of us out of work) is because life doesn't follow a textbook.

                And most things doctors say are for the benefit of the patient. Even "religious" doctors are, IMHO, doing it for the patients (kinda like Obama). If you really want to go down this route, grab a copy of your mom's medical records. Legally they are your mom's. See if there is a SINGLE mention of God in them. If you have a doctor's note saying:

                Vascular Surgery

                Assessment/Plan: Patient is a 49yo female with a 2 year history of May-Thurner Syndrome, status post L common iliac bare metal stent placement 1 month ago. Ultrasound with doppler today showed complete collapse of the stented segment but patient is currently asymptomatic likely secondary to extensive anastamoses in the affected area. Differential diagnoses include God looking out for patient as she is a good Christian. Plan to discharge tomorrow to home and follow up with her pastor next Sunday. Patient advised to continue praying as condition is refractory to medical/surgical treatment. No acute surgical issues at this time. Will sign off for now, please call with any questions.

                then we'll talk.

                [–]LucidMetal 0 points1 point ago

                My punctuation hurts.

                [–]gorkareaux -2 points-1 points ago

                Have you asked every doctor?

                [–]leenks 0 points1 point ago

                is r/atheism just a forum for making fun of theists?

                [–]gwot 0 points1 point ago

                yes

                [–]Karmaisthedevil -1 points0 points ago

                There's not much else to discuss really.

                [–]awsongbird_13 0 points1 point ago

                Every time I see this I read the whole thing in Professor Farnsworth's voice

                [–]commodore-69 1 point2 points ago

                Only 4 doctors in that pic

                [–]dandan86 0 points1 point ago

                but 9 out of 10 doctors

                [–]Misaria 0 points1 point ago

                I once had a teacher that tried to convince me that her friend had cancer, but the doctors couldn't do anything..

                So, her friend went to a 'faith-healer' and was cured..

                People are idiots..

                [–]Just_Like_You 1 point2 points ago

                I knew a doctor who actually said this. He wasn't being sarcastic either.

                I live in the southeastern USA (Bible Belt).

                [–]wmarnold 1 point2 points ago

                But why are there only four doctors in the picture?

                [–]moonflower 0 points1 point ago

                Fifth one is taking the photo

                [–]Paulzoom91 0 points1 point ago

                Form the position of the patient?

                [–]ekjohnson9 1 point2 points ago

                Doctors see a lot of hopeless situations every day. I think turning to religion is a logical step based upon the average hospital death rates, considering doctors treat either. A. The young and stupid. Or B. the fat and old. For the most part

                [–]Travie6492 1 point2 points ago

                I gotta say, this post made me laugh for a good while.

                Well played.

                [–]Handaffe 1 point2 points ago

                To embrace Neil deGrasse Tyson:
                If you want to use nowadays' non-explicable things as evidence for god then god will be an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance.

                [–]linggayby -1 points0 points ago

                Aaaactually, all kinds of unexplained healing happen. I'm not saying its a god's action, but it's not always doctors. My grandfather's tuberculosis went away overnight before he was scheduled for surgery. My dad's tonsils just disappeared (I guess thy doesn't count cuz there was no real threat there, but still unexplained.) My heart stopped while I was still in the womb, but I came back without the doctors understanding what happened. I'm not religious at all, but doctors sure as hell don't have all the answers. They're incredible, but they haven't figured it all out yet at all.

                [–]rushmc1 0 points1 point ago

                No one is or has ever disputed this point, merely that jumping from "we don't understand the mechanism" to "God did it" is ridiculous.

                [–]linggayby 0 points1 point ago

                makin the jump from "we have no empirical evidence to suggest that prayer makes people better" to "prayer is useless" is also quite a big leap. Prayer comforts the people praying, and positive thinking has been shown to help.

                As a side note, prayer in many cultures is NOT asking for things to happen, it's listening and meditation, which is very beneficial.

                [–]mrzack 0 points1 point ago

                doctors also make money on operating on you, even unnecessary procedures. always consult at least 4-5 physicians before you operate.
                sometimes, changing one's diet and eating natural supplements is enough to reverse and cure chronic diseases.

                doctors are 3rd most leading cause for preventable deaths in America. Doctors don't know jack shit about nutrition and their med skool indoctrination makes them puppets for the Rockefellar eugenics big pharma system. Doctor surgeons are only good for emergency procedures, otherwise I'd advise you stay away from western trained doctors.

                [–]jemyr 0 points1 point ago

                I know many many doctors that say "When I get sick, I want someone to give me the GOOD placebo." This based off evidence that placebo's have real and strong effects on illnesses across the board. (Which is why real medicine has to be tested against placebos).

                So if you have something there is no treatment for, what you need is that "good placebo." Whether that's religion, grandma's chicken soup, or a witch doctor, as long as you believe it, it will really help.

                [–]Chris1218218 0 points1 point ago

                Actually, I've had quite a few religious doctors, who I'm sure have said something along those lines.

                [–]Yodol -1 points0 points ago

                wow whoever made this post seriously needs to do some of their own personal research.....seriously

                [–]JesseCuster40 0 points1 point ago

                Doesn't need the bottom line.

                [–]Sc2RuinedMyLife 1 point2 points ago

                lol you have no idea how many times in the hospital patients would go "thank god" but...1/2 the time after, they never thanked the doctors, nurses, support staff...

                [–]MrsKilflabbycock 0 points1 point ago

                I had a singer's nodule on my vocal chords. Between diagnosis and surgery (about six weeks) I rested my voice and when I woke up from the anaesthetic the doctor told me that the nodule had receded and he hadn't had to touch the vocal chords at all. He said to me "someone must have been praying for you". Sorry to deflate your theory!

                [–]daddydrank 0 points1 point ago

                Actually doctors are very pro-prayer because the placebo effect is a very real thing.

                [–]am0ney 0 points1 point ago

                i swear, you reddit athiest faggots are just as bad as super religious people

                honestly, im sick of reading these kind of threads on reddit. who gives a fuck who prays and who doesnt - to each their own.

                bunch of fucking neckbeards - NOBODY GIVES A FUCK YOU DONT THINK GOD EXISTS

                [–]MIBPJ 0 points1 point ago

                "Stop praying. I know its your way of coping and easing your anxiety but it's killing the patient" said no doctor ever

                [–]jphrilla 0 points1 point ago

                Im not a deliverance kind of guy but this is not true. Theres actually a lot of science behind the power of the mind,placebo, and prayer.

                [–]Randompaul 0 points1 point ago

                Have you never heard of the power of positive thought? There are many things that can go wrong in an operation.

                [–]Frankenfish 0 points1 point ago

                I'm pretty sure some doctors have said this. You realize not all doctors are atheists.

                [–]elbruce 0 points1 point ago

                There are cases of spontaneous remission of cancer, which religious people invariably attribute to divine intervention. But that raises even more problems.

                [–]phate0451 1 point2 points ago

                As a christian and a doctor I give this my seal of approval. Although the pic shows only a surgeon, gasman, nurse, and a nervous sweaty assistant.

                [–]TrailMix1939 0 points1 point ago

                My goodness. I have seen this many times on here, each time with over 1000 upvotes. I wonder if I could literally take this exact fucking link, wait 3 weeks, repost it, and get thousands of upvotes even with this comment in my comment history.

                [–]redlantern2814[S] 0 points1 point ago

                Sorry Sir, won't happen again, carry on.

                [–]frozenkiller7 0 points1 point ago

                actually, people have said something near that. its often credited to saints though, not god

                [–]redlantern2814[S] 0 points1 point ago

                I realize I am a little late, yet watching both sides of this "arguement"(or what ever you call what you are doing in these comments) is crazy. If you read the image it is implying that there isnt a doctor that would say prayer is the primary form of treatment for what ever ails you. There are Religons that deny medical science and substitute prayer as the correct form of treatment. If there are doctors in the world that believe that, they should not be called doctors. Yes religious doctors exist! Brilliant! I am sure they do a fine job using scientificly tested methods to try and help people. When there is no treatment left, we should understand doctors and even patients using whatever faith they have in an attempt to cope, understand, and fix their situation. I forget myself in r/atheism sometimes, yet most of you hold ridiculous positions or are horrible at arguing. That is "what the OP is trying to say." DOWNVOOOOOOOOOTES HO!

                [–]GreyEarth 0 points1 point ago

                So...If my wounds turn out to be lethal, someone in my family must want me dead.

                Just as I always suspected!

                [–]The_right_mind -3 points-2 points ago

                Yeah that family is so ridicules with their prayers! How dare they try and express to their loved one that they will be hoping their surgery will go well. This religion has to be stopped for all the awful crap it throws out at scociety.

                [–]Dragember 9 points10 points ago

                I don't mind people praying for the surgery goes well. It's just, when it comes down to it, the doctors need their credit. They're the real life super heroes here. I know they've saved my life.

                Besides, there are a few isolated cases of highly religious people not taking family members in when they contract a severe kind of illness. They keep them home and attempt to pray the problem away. Some of these cases have lead to death.

                ^ I feel as though that's the tackle point here. You must take action, you can't expect prayers to heal someone.

                [–]rushmc1 0 points1 point ago

                They could express that, you know, directly, without couching it in terms of begging favors from imaginary beings.

                [–]Zenchee 0 points1 point ago

                You can express care that the patient survives by thanking their doctor for the effort that they are about to go through, and helping the patient by saying something like "I'll be here when you wake up", implying that they will be fine and comforting the patient.

                You don't need to do useless shit like pray, there are many numbers of things you can do that are far more useful. And yes, it does have to be stopped, you are right.

                [–]Oniwabanshu -1 points0 points ago

                4 out of 4

                FTFY

                [–]HeartlessAtAFuneral 0 points1 point ago

                Christians have found a way around this too. "God was guiding the hand of the surgeons." This pisses me off every time I hear it, and I honestly contemplated suicide as a wrote it.

                [–]sweetmilk 0 points1 point ago

                Cheese and crackers... Relax, man!

                [–]strategic_form 0 points1 point ago

                Many families pray as a way to cope with things over which they feel they have no control, and not because they believe prayers actually have the power to heal. I'm as critical of the idea of faith healing as the next guy, but let's not make it a rule to always act like fuckheads whenever someone says they are praying for someone or something.

                [–]rushmc1 1 point2 points ago

                Thinking that someone is a fool does not mean one has to always verbalize it.

                [–]gideonhalo 1 point2 points ago

                Lady at my church needed open heart surgery to fix two issues. All tests, exams, health conditions etc. showed the surgery needed to be done. Day of, surgery team opens her up and everything is perfect. They close her up and the write it off as miraculous healing, it's on her chart. Stuff like that happens all around me at my church and along with the healing being announced, proof of the previous condition is confirmed. Man being healed of spinal issues and no longer needs his pain meds or his cane. Woman diagnosed with leukemia after testing, goes back in with more tests and the diagnosis is reversed to something treatable and survivable.

                Stuff like that happens often at my Church and basically you have to see those healings first hand to believe that God still works miracles through people. It bums me out that more people don't believe in a church like mine that totally believes in all the spiritual gifts. Many church goers believe those are gifts of the past which doesn't make much sense to me because it's clearly written in the Bible that God gives those gifts.

                Even with that statement, people have knowledge to heal people... they're called Doctors, go to them. Understand it's not just a pray for it issue. There are Doctors, they can give you meds, they can fix you, go to them and don't ignore that they're there to help. Pray for it all the while, but don't ignore them and simply say God will heal it. Often if God doesn't heal it, people then turn around and blame Him for it while there's a Doctor and a treatment. Anyways, much love.

                [–]godofall7 1 point2 points ago

                Yea, Like Khanfusion said.

                my little brother was run over with a car by my mom (lol?) it was a long story. we were sledding through the wooods and across the driveway, and we didn't see her, and she didn't see us.

                anyways at first doctors said he woudln't survive, he had a collaspsed lung and some crushed bones. then doctors said he may survive but he will be confined to a breathing device for the rest of his life.

                right now he's in the marines and he's kicking ass in iraq, in much better shape than probably 99% of people on this website.

                so this picture really isn't true

                [–]Nonremovable -1 points0 points ago

                This isn't true. Many doctors have admitted to the power of prayer in a healing that was unexplainable by them.

                I'm just saying, some doctors have said this.

                [–]Notsewk 1 point2 points ago

                Good news! this is an original post made by the OP... said no redditor ever.

                [–]tristanryan -1 points0 points ago

                I go to a christian college, in fact I'm sitting in chapel right now browsing reddit. No christian would ever believe their prayers could work like that. To think that would be ignorant on your part. We pray for the doctors who operate on us or people we know to have wisdom, or God to bless them with wisdom. To be there with the surgeon, and if anything goes wrong have God lead them in the path to make sure everything goes smoothly.

                [–]rushmc1 1 point2 points ago

                It's funny how every time a Christian says "no Christian thinks like that," one can easily point to numerous examples of Christians who do.

                [–]forkevbot -1 points0 points ago

                Because some Christian's are confused. Prayers work however God wants them to. End of story. You tristanryan cannot tell God how prayer works.

                [–]rushmc1 0 points1 point ago

                And, of course, YOU have it all figured out and are exactly right, and all those poor, deluded billions should save themselves the trouble and just come ask you for all the answers...

                Sigh.

                [–]BTAA4TD -2 points-1 points ago

                Wrong. https://www.box.com/shared/ail7kdc8l1

                [–]tyskstil -5 points-4 points ago

                I'm so fucking tired of this argument. One prays to a god for Him to let the doctors succeed.

                [–]insideman83 -4 points-3 points ago

                This. Prayers are pretty much old school methods people used to meditate for the most part. But, the circlejerk isn't interested in that.

                [–]babeltooth -1 points0 points ago

                Because the very idea of god healing someone he made sick in the first place because people pray hard enough is so fucking retarded it gives me cancer.

                [–]tyskstil 0 points1 point ago

                It is retarded and a good point. It has nothing to do with the picture in question though.

                [–]fkenned1 -2 points-1 points ago

                Wow, what a circle jerk. You guys just post the same old shit over and over and over again. You do realize that you're preaching to the choir right? I really wish reddit would remove this from the default subreddits. So sick of it.

                [–]Perthbrony728 -1 points0 points ago

                You expected new content from r/atheism?

                [–]rushmc1 0 points1 point ago

                Actually, atheists don't preach and don't have a choir, so...you lose.

                [–]kjm87 -1 points0 points ago

                Whenever I've heard someone pray about something like this, they pray for "God to guide the doctors hands". So no, they don't just pray that things will miraculously fix themselves on their own. They pray that God will give the doctors the knowledge and wisdom to help that particular person, and then take it from there.

                [–]letshavebacon -2 points-1 points ago

                i understand that things aren't just cured by prayers, but this is kind of a cheap shot man

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