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[–]keystothemoon 1793 points1794 points ago

Instead of just making fun of this, maybe we should be self-reflective and realize that this is how we come across to a lot of believers. When people hear atheists saying judgmental, condescending things about their religion, they tune out any rational arguments you may have. That's no way to change minds.

[–]CYBERDYNE9000 279 points280 points ago

being an atheist doesn't make you intelligent. dumb atheists are going to act like idiots. it's the way of the world.

[–][deleted] ago

[deleted]

[–]Czechmix 96 points97 points ago

Do you think that's different from what CYBERDYNE just said?

[–]manuel_robot_cleaner 0 points1 point ago

Yes. All people are different than than all atheists. Atheists are a subgroup of people, people is the whole shebang.

[–]Wizywig 4 points5 points ago

Let's reflect on that with flipped tables. We should never forget, that we are all humans, we all make mistakes and errors in judgement. We should think about how to improve our arguments.

[–]heavyweather77 118 points119 points ago

Beautifully put. I have a good friend whom I respect very much, and who is a devout Catholic. I think he's fundamentally wrong about reality, but his mind is sharp and his thinking is very clear; he's accepted a level of cognitive dissonance that I can't, for reasons I don't understand, but he's a good, moral, and highly intelligent person.

Incidentally, Aquinas is his hero. Well, Aquinas and Dave Grohl.

This is a guy with whom I can have really compelling, insightful, and ultimately uplifting, productive conversation about reality as we view it. Although he hasn't changed my mind, he's exposed me to new ways of looking at the situation that I value very much.

There are dicks on both sides. It pays to not be one.

(Edit: plural to singular)

[–]severus66 56 points57 points ago

Aquinas might have been a fine man--

but the first mover principle is pretty weak sauce.

[–]BenjaminBalls 25 points26 points ago

That's what bugged me the most. I get the point of the cartoon, but the first thing out of the Catholic's mouth is something from Thomas Aquinas? Really? I mean the Atheist is portrayed as an idiot who spews hate and makes unintelligible remarks, but it doesn't help when the only substantive thought out of the character, whom I'm supposed to relate to, is a quote from Aquinas, who is to philosophy the equivalent of Lamarck to evolutionary science.

[–]Downstroyer 761 points762 points ago

Come across to a lot of believers? I'm a non-believer and there have been times I was ashamed to be an atheist at how some of you act.

I want to say though that emphasis on the "some" definitely not all and most are pretty calm, cool, you do what you want but let me do what I want people. It's just those aren't the ones you see generally, generally the ones you see are the younger generation who found out how "cool" and "smart" it is to be an atheist on the internet.

[–]_Aldous_ 566 points567 points ago

Being an asshole and having a religion are two independent things. Some Christians are assholes, some are nice. Some atheists are assholes, some are nice.

[–]whatssleepagain 217 points218 points ago

That is true, but it is the assholes who stand out. They are the minority, who become the voice of the majority.

[–]TheAurelian 94 points95 points ago

This is extremely important to remember when we look at any group. From religion, to race, to political.

[–]cutiepuffjunior 2 points3 points ago

And gender...

[–]DefiantDragon 6 points7 points ago

Assholes are everywhere. Welcome to Humanity. It's a chronic condition.

[–]RidleyOMalley 21 points22 points ago

I just wanted to thank you for being so intelligent on this subject. I'm not being sarcastic. You are absolutely correct.

[–]AlkarinValkari 137 points138 points ago

The levels of ironic in this thread are palpable.

[–]brandy606 29 points30 points ago

What's ironic in this thread?

[–]random_potatoes 76 points77 points ago

Rain on your wedding day?

[–]JSLEnterprises 46 points47 points ago

A free ride when you've already paid?

[–]random_potatoes 42 points43 points ago

A black fly in your Chardonnay?

[–]electriophile 48 points49 points ago

Say something about how horrible atheists are: OMG don't judge us all by the asshole minority!

Say something about how horrible Muslims are: Islam is a religion of violence and by not speaking out against the extremists they are all approving of what they do!!!

[–]brandy606 18 points19 points ago

Can you find me someone who says that here and gets upvoted? It's not that I don't believe you, I just haven't seen it

Edit: I've never seen someone say Islam is a religion of violence. It isn't at all and most people here understand that. It's the extremists that make a religion seem hateful or dangerous or violent. And Islam is not the only religion who has extremists. There are extremists in every religion and every nationality and every race of people

[–]XxFluffyToastxX 4 points5 points ago

Unless we can stop diving and grouping ourselves, we will always have extremists. We shouldnt be dividing ourselves into continents, countrys, skin color, religion, etc. We should all think of ourselves as one huge group, that way the only extremists are the ones within this huge group.

[–]robreim 2 points3 points ago

Your statement that there are extremists in every religion and that Islam is not a religion of violence seems to be pushing the idea that all religions are equal in their capacity to create violent adherents. That's just not true. You don't see violent Jainists for example. It's a fact that there are more violent muslims than adherants to any other religion in the world. It's also true that correlation does not equal causation, and it may not be true that Islam causes violence directly, but some of their tenets and scripture certainly make that hypothesis appealing.

Moderate muslims also need to do a better job of condemning violent muslims. With the recent protests I've noticed they seem to be getting better at doing this, but there's still that element of "well, you did insult our prophet and religion. What did you expect?" which does not do the world of Islam any favours.

[–]uncleawesome 0 points1 point ago

Just another circlejerk in a circlejerk.

[–]redisforever 1 point2 points ago

It is the assholes who stand out in any group, unfortunately. An issue I see is that people like to believe the assholes are indicative of the whole group, because they are the most noticed, and we don't do enough to distance ourselves from them.

[–]Awake6 28 points29 points ago

When I'm talking about religion with a believer, I emphasize the fact that I do right because it's the right thing to do. Not because someone is telling me that I have to, or because I'll be rewarded later. My reward is the feeling I get when I see my actions help others, or make others happy.

Focusing on the fact that were all trying to make the world a better place is a way to show them that not all athiests are pompous assholes. We all want the same things, we just go about it differently.

[–]mr_styx 11 points12 points ago

that argument will only get you so far... how do you know it's the right thing to do? if the right thing to do is any action that helps others or makes others happy, how do you determine which person/people to do that for? probably not going to be doing that for a despot.

so, it's based on some sort of moral intuition or guideline. but then where did you acquire that set of moral values? society? or is it instinctual?

i see your argument that we're all trying to make the world a better place, but for who? how do you know what will make the world a better place? some might argue (quite convincingly) that the population is large, and the Earth can't sustain the growth of the human population. so, in lieu of finding other places in the universe to expand to (because it's not possible yet), how do you remedy the population problem? it is perhaps a possibility that we need to cull the population somehow. china's "one child" laws are there to limit their population growth, but they also make a lot of people unhappy. i'm not sure there is a solution that would work and make everybody happy, so how is this resolved?

(hoping for serious discussion, this is something i've been mulling over for a bit and i'm having trouble with it...

edit: not the china thing, but ethics and morality as an atheist.)

[–]Coalesced 13 points14 points ago

Atheists aren't really a cohesive group; we're not part of some club because we don't believe. It is far less reasonable to label Atheists as a "type" than to label Christians as a type. It'd like saying "These people all think Waffles are the best food, these others all don't think that. THUS we have Waffleites and NonWaffleites."

That makes absolutely no sense. We're all different people, people who happen to not believe in one of the various brands of theology in the world.. in our own way. Personally, I am very spiritual and very reverent of life. A few friends of mine are like Stephen Hawking; we die, we turn off, the end.

I do find that a "nice" Christian is more likely to cause harm via their ideal, by dint of being subscribers to a false concept of reality, one which often interferes with the lives of its adherents, which in turn negatively impacts those the adherent knows, and those they know, etc. A cascade. Whereas a "nice" atheist is a grab-bag of potential mores and norms: There's no "standard" atheist. To label them as standard is a disservice to humans, just as labeling all Christians in a certain way is a slightly less severe example of the same. (Only less severe due to the sampling being of a particular credo's adherents.)

This is a common "THEY" syndrome practice, and it dehumanizes people and makes their arguments easier to dismiss.

If any of you have ever seen the movie Contact, it is true that a huge number of people believe in a greater power. They disagree on the origins of this power. Some do not believe in it.

Others are in the middle; unsure of a greater power, unsure that it would not be explicable by some scientific means. If I encountered some luminous being, would I call it an angel? Or would I call it some advanced form of life energy, some intelligence?

Does the difference matter? I am an "Atheist" in that I do not subscribe to the idea of a Christian, Islamic, Jewish, "God", the Abrahamic religions never appealed to me. Does this mean I do not believe that we may have souls? No, I do not know. We may. Maybe they are energy patterns that serve the effective function of eternity, perhaps they are a divine mandate from our unique position as consciousness in a living body. Either way, why not an explanation that satisfies a scientific, inquiring mind as well as being a reverent, thankful expression of joy?

I do not pretend to understand the dynamics of the various religions of the world, but I do see a distasteful trend towards power-mongering by those in charge. If we want to change religions and the religious, I think it would behoove us to create "exchange programs" with some of the more liberal idealogies, those that are prepared to embrace scientific explanations for their beliefs, or unafraid of examining themselves. In this way I think we will advance together as a species.

tl;dr There are all kinds of people. Atheists are less easy to classify as a "group" than most subsets of religious folk because they are defined by a lack rather than a quality. In closing, if you haven't seen Contact, I recommend it. Amazing film.

[–]zBard 51 points52 points ago

I'm a non-believer and there have been times I was ashamed to be an atheist at how some of you act.

Some of you us act.

[–]Downstroyer 9 points10 points ago

Good correction, well noted :) Thank you.

[–]Drakonisch 78 points79 points ago

I was ashamed to be an atheist

Why? There are assholes in every walk of life. You may as well be ashamed of breathing oxygen, because assholes do that too. Atheist describes a very very broad range of people.

[–]odysseus88 19 points20 points ago

I must say, the asshole per capita in this subreddit is very high. Every other posts comes across as juvenile (lol look at what I saw on facebook! what a fucking idiot!) and is demeaning to atheism.

[–]Drakonisch 12 points13 points ago

I disagree. There are many anti theists here and this is where those of us in the states come to vent. But I don't see much assholishness here. At least in the comments. I really can't speak for the faceless hordes that upvote the shit.

[–]executex 22 points23 points ago

It's an illusion. People are taught at a young age, that you don't question religion. So people have spread this myth around reddit, that atheists are "assholes, condescending, smug, juvenile," etc.

Why do they spread this when they know it isn't any more common than in any other subreddit?

It's a sociological effect, because they've been indoctrinated with political correctness. When you ask such people to find examples of "asshole atheists that got upvotes here", they can muster only examples of people criticizing religion.

As if, criticizing religion = being an asshole.

They've put religion on a pedestal, and they cannot tolerate anyone from criticizing religion, mocking religion for something hypocritical, etc. Instead they conclude that they were being offensive.

Ask them and question them every time they say "atheists in /r/atheism have a lot of assholes", the last time I did this, they posted Facebook pictures that got upvotes, where atheists were using Biblical scripture to expose a religious persons' wrongdoing and hypocrisy.

(In my case, apparently, quoting the Bible == being an asshole condescending atheist).

This subreddit is a criticism subreddit, it certainly will have a lot of criticism of religion as we don't believe in their most sacred belief: God. It is NOT SURPRISING, that there are people who are offended. 700 years ago we'd be put to death.

[–]Downstroyer 7 points8 points ago

Very well put, I guess it contributes to growing up in a family of Christians that I feel so much different and in such a small minority being an athiest, that everyone must think and act like me lol.

[–]UnKamenRider 3 points4 points ago

I'm a woman. I can honestly say I'm ashamed of how some women act, but I've never been ashamed to be a woman.

I'm assuming it's the same principle. I'm embarrassed all the time by how some atheists act, but it's just like any other attribute. It doesn't stop you from being an ass, but it doesn't, in and of itself, make you an ass.

[–]nofreakingusernames 37 points38 points ago

Why would you be ashamed of not believing in god because of how other people who didn't believe in god acted?

What kind of reasoning is that.

[–]WalrusTits 17 points18 points ago

The important thing is you've found a way to feel superior to both groups of people.

[–]Not-an-alt-account 3 points4 points ago

He also proceeds to blame the younger generation...

[–]Azai 2 points3 points ago

Why would you be ashamed of not believing in god because of how some other people that don't believe in god act?

What dogma do we all follow? What holy book do we have? I could not believe in god and be a free loving, pot-smoker, anarchist. Or I could be a fascist that doesn't believe in god, but believes only the strict military rule of the elite is what the world needs.

There is no creed, no commandments and no 'rules' on deciding to not believe in something. Saying you are ashamed of how other atheist act is like saying you are ashamed that some people that turn off their tv act like douches, just because you turn your tv off too.

Then on a smaller note, I'll take a condensing jerk over anyone that tries to burn, kill, torture, or impose their religion on another person. Impose meaning they actually try to pass laws that force you to follow what they believe or you go to jail.

[–]thesmoth 0 points1 point ago

The world is full of soft-breed beta males, such as yourself.

Sometimes we need aggressive and vocal people to speak up for important points (like promotion of atheism).

People always rag on Richard Dawkins and say he's too abrasive and insulting. I always hear "I'm an atheist and even I hate Richard Dawkins".

First of all, most people who say that on the internet are actually religious and just trying to discredit Richard Dawkins. Second of all, if you are atheist and say that, then you are a weak link beta male and need to step aside and allow those of us (men and women) with "balls" to actually stand up and get something done.

[–]rory_guy 4 points5 points ago

Act in real life or on a forum for atheists? From personal experience it seems to be completely different to here.

[–]nattyd 16 points17 points ago

I don't know about you, but if I came across a catholic who wanted to talk about Aquinas, I would be thrilled to talk to them. Of course this hardly ever happens. The vast majority would just be completely outraged that you even asked them to justify their beliefs.

[–]Shaper_pmp 34 points35 points ago

Exactly. To be fair, the guy who drew this cartoon is not wrong.

Not about Aquinas' First Mover principle (it's bunk, and even if you buy it why should the first mover necessarily have a face, personality or opinion on who I put my penis in?), but about the fact that a lot of the posts on r/atheism (and other advocacy on the net) are little better than the supposed straw-man in this cartoon.

There are good and bad arguments for atheism, and good and bad arguments for religion. On balance the good arguments for atheism massively outweigh the good arguments for religion, but it's hardly unfair to say that about 90% of the advocacy for atheism on the net are bad arguments for atheism.

And, to be equally fair, the same goes for religion. Like it or not, no matter which side you're on 90% of your compatriots are idiot poop-flinging monkeys, and (while the best arguments for and against may differ in strength) there's arguably (and sadly) little difference between religion and atheism in this regard.

[–]AFewSecondsAgoDouche 99 points100 points ago

I'm an atheist and couldn't have less respect for /r/atheism and the brand of atheism that it promotes.

I don't want to even think what the fools here are doing for the term 'atheist' and its perception among not only the general public as they are, but the general public that we are aiming to hope have join us in our non-belief some day.

You mention self-reflection, the problem is you're addressing a group of people who have too much of an issue with self-reflection that the internet is an escape from the reality of what they see when they look at themselves, either physically or mentally.

This video is literally how /r/atheism is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slKULc8W7lM

And I've been reading here for years. Like most of the site, /r/atheism has went from a resource full of great posts and links to an angsty teenager controlled, meme and "pwning" centric shithole.

It's a shame but thankfully there are many other resources for actual atheists out there to interact with one another without the presence of the teenage, rebel dickheads that populate /r/atheism now.

[–]Tresro86 45 points46 points ago

/r/atheism was actually one of the biggest things in helping my previously indoctrinated brain get past a lot of mental road blocks that my religion had given me. I was taught that having a debate with someone on evolution was something that god wouldn't like and doing something god doesn't like means I didn't get to live forever with my family and friends.

These little short posts and pictures with the occasionally witty comment making fun of religion often were so short that even if I looked away quick enough I had already read it. There was one in particular that joked about Abraham sacrificing his child and how a loving god would never test someone like that, and that specific meme or whatever it was really got me looking into every detail of what I was told to believe.

Other atheists also need to realize that many of us were indoctrinated from childhood, and often in extremist religious cults that really take a toll on your development. This ends up making people often extremely angry and upset, and can come across as a bad image for atheists. At least in my case I've been slowly working through the anger though and have learned how to make a more intellectual argument when I talk often at very long lengths with firm believers from all religions.

A lot of you might think this subreddit is hurting the atheist image, but it's also directly helped a lot of people's lives completely change. In my case I've never been as truly happy as I am now as I learn about how incredible the universe is and learn that my decisions and mistakes are mine to make.

TL/DR: The random funny jabs at religion on /r/atheism helped me, my family, and many friends look into our own religions.

[–]Big-Sexy 14 points15 points ago

People who do not live in the Bible Belt, or are not often around fundamentalists do not know how hard it can be. r/atheism is for some of us our way to stay sane. While there are assholes, people on here know what to expect and if you don't like it, you are under no obligation to stay here. But when you hear how you are going to he'll regularly, you get annoyed to the point you want to revolt against it by venting it among others with similar minds. So before you call us an asshole, try walking a mile in our shoes.

[–]clitorides 3 points4 points ago

This deserves more upvotes.

[–]blueredyellowbluered 27 points28 points ago

In this thread there appears to be a lot of name calling and blame-pushing, along with asserting that "well, I'm an atheist, but I'm not one of those badddd atheists, I'm actually far superior to them. They bring shame on us"

It seems, it's as pointless (and untrue) as "Well, I'm not one of those christians, I still think homosexuality is wrong and your lifestyle is sinful and wrong and you are somehow damaged, but I don't want to kill you or anything"

[–]executex 18 points19 points ago

You're absolutely wrong. I'm tired of atheists here that defend people like you who apologize for political incorrectness in this subreddit. It's such a popular thing to pretend /r/atheism subreddit is 'offensive' except you're completely unsupported by the evidence.

Look at what you linked. You linked to a video where someone made a cartoon caricaturing /r/atheism, claiming that it is just a bunch of kids offending religion. And that's simply 100% false.

The only thing the video got right is that occasionally there are memes on this subreddit. So what? None of them are as silly as said in the video.

No one goes around saying "pwned" in this subreddit. You're just making shit up out of your ass.

The whole video was teenage angst against /r/atheism, and yet you linked it to us, like as if it is factually accurate. It's not. It's a gross exaggeration and falsehood.

Where do you find these "offensive atheists" that are just saying "STUPID SLUT RELIGIOUS PERSON, GOD'S NOT REAL" ---WHERE do you find them? I have YET to find it in the 3+ years I've been here. And I read the comments too.

Whenever a 'teenage angry atheist' seriously offends a religious person or character-attacks a religious person, they get downvoted to oblivion in /r/atheism

These "offensive atheists" and "insulting religious people simply for believing" doesn't exist in /r/atheism. It's a figment of your imagination. Probably psychologically brought on by your inability to distinguish between criticism & mocking hypocrisy versus insulting & verbal abuse.

You've falsely equated them in your head. So you are constantly offended by people in /r/atheism.

I ask you now, cite me 10 posts from /r/atheism today, that received more than 100 upvotes, that is absolutely abysmally offensive, disrespectful, & insulting to religious people. Provide a citation, point it out to me. Provide your proof to make your case, rather than a shitty youtube cartoon.

[–]affablearmadillo 6 points7 points ago

It's such a popular thing to pretend /r/atheism[1] subreddit is 'offensive' except you're completely unsupported by the evidence.

This subreddit upvoted a picture of Muhammad shitting himself to the front page.

[–]rokinlobster 10 points11 points ago

I don't wanna!

[–]BaadKitteh 7 points8 points ago

You need to realize that not all of us- in fact, I'd wager very few of us- give a crap about changing minds. We recognize the complete waste of time that presenting rational arguments to religious people is, and only do so when provoked. I don't go around on religious subreddits or any other thing like Fb pages and make fun of theists, but when they come at me on my atheist subreddits and Fb pages I have no problem logic-ing their deluded asses into the ground. This is how pretty much every atheist I know feels, but then again I'm well past teenage years and maybe that makes a difference.

[–]-Mugen- 8 points9 points ago

Maybe you shouldn't be trying to change minds and instead let people live their lives the way they would like.

[–]TheSnowNinja 12 points13 points ago

I don't think this is a good mentality. There are a lot of good reasons to change minds. In fact, that is exactly what you just did. You tried to change the mind of keystothemoon by encouraging him not to change minds.

I get what you mean. If someone is religious but doesn't try to impose religious rules or preach all the time, then leave them be.

However, if I meet a religious person who has bigoted beliefs based on their religion, I may try to change their mind. If someone has a poor understanding of science due to religion, I may try to change their mind.

[–]heinleinr 1 point2 points ago

True that, however I think that many atheists put much effort into suppressing their disgust at the hypocratic, contradictorily, self-justified, human-rights violating fantasy that religious implementation yields. I know it makes me want to vomit in rage...

I find this question sometimes invokes some discussion, embarrassment and education in religious folk, especially the masses who haven't bothered to RTFM:

"Please explain this passage without attempting to justify murder in the name of your God:"

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13, KJB version)

[–]kayotyro 9 points10 points ago

yes! i have come so close to unsubscribing from atheism many times. there is no debate, just hating on faith as the supposed binary opposite to reason. lets be REASONABLE

[–]DerangedPickle 16 points17 points ago

A comment that isn't judgemental and pretentious as hell on Atheism.

Hate for this subreddit, somewhat lowered.

[–]WalrusTits 5 points6 points ago

Why are you here if you hate the subreddit?

[–]ChrisDuhFir 234 points235 points ago

I'm an atheist and I found this funny. But also kind of sad because there are probably atheists like this.

[–]juancamdingo 292 points293 points ago

...on this subreddit.

[–]CaptainDickbag 209 points210 points ago

Maybe even a lot of them.

[–]SiickNastikillr 188 points189 points ago

...a majority.

[–]JonTheBon 161 points162 points ago

...basically everybody.

[–]hoikarnage 109 points110 points ago

Except me.

[–]slytherinspy1960 64 points65 points ago

It's true everyone else is absolutely horrible except me.

[–]rick2882 25 points26 points ago

Everyone except you, me and OP (and that guy with the highest rated post). Also, maybe a few more.

[–]R3PTILIA 23 points24 points ago

and me, but I'm the last one

[–]Gengar11 10 points11 points ago

I'm agnostic.

[–]Kayin_Angel 3 points4 points ago

Oh look! Bonus karma chance:

"Yeah guys, this is why I unsubscribed to /r/atheism"

[–]adityaseth 8 points9 points ago

Most of the facebook posts here are like that. Let's face it, these people probably aren't close friends, they're probably just acquaintances because they met a few times in college, when adding people for the fuck of it was the cool thing to do.

Being arrogant to them just comes off as dickish.

[–]WonkyArt 12 points13 points ago

Why is this sad? Being an atheist doesn't make you belong to a group, it's just an attribute. I'm an atheist, but I don't face-palm every time someone equally godless person goofs up. It doesn't reflect on me at all.

[–]STUN_Runner 45 points46 points ago

I appreciate this comic as a cautionary tale, a way of saying We need to avoid being like this.

On the other hand, if the goal of this comic is to say that ad hominem and strawman arguments are all atheists are putting out there, then I would take issue with that.

[–]UnicornsBeforeJesus 11 points12 points ago

I swear it's like the only thing either group ever notices and comments on are the crazies from the other side.

Anti-science, bigoted, out-of-touch-with-reality creationists =/= every religious person on Earth, nor the majority.

Douche bag level 9000, condescending, incapable of proper debate, internet atheists =/= every atheist on Earth, nor the majority.

Despite what every rage comic and FB screenshot would have you believe. False dichotomy etc etc yada yada look a cute kitten.

[–]EndoExo 372 points373 points ago

The funniest part of this image is the suggestion that a significant number of Catholics arrived at their views because they were convinced by the rational arguments of Thomas Aquinas.

Hell, I'd be surprised if the average Catholic knows anything about Aquinas beyond recognizing the name.

[–]j0y0 178 points179 points ago

the suggestion that a significant number of Catholics arrived at their views because they were convinced by the rational arguments of Thomas Aquinas.

Catholic Americans have a tradition of sending their kids to private Catholic school, and these schools are have since had to justify their rising costs by becoming competitive preparatory schools that teach real science (big bang, evolution, and everything else) and get students into competitive colleges.

Being well-educated and Christian requires a lot of mental gymnastics and uncomfortable cognitive dissonance. Aquinas has constructed the most intricate and difficult to untangle arguments for a lot of things Catholics today are struggling to continue to believe.

These aren't the same Christians that think answers in genesis is legit, they really care about the truth and actually will respond positively to intellectual discourse. You are insulting yourself if you resort to anything less when dealing with them.

TL;DR: Young educated Catholics who bust out Aquinas usually care about the truth. If they are capable of rational discussion so should you be.

[–]theatrekiddo 10 points11 points ago

I attended a catholic school from K-8th and can attest to the fact that I was two years ahead of my friends in science when I started my freshman year at a public high school. I am an atheist now, but am totally proud of my development through catholic school.

I find that the only downside to catholic schooling is attending masses every morning for an hour and spending fourty minutes per day on religion class. I find the religion classes and masses give one insight into one of the biggest and oldest religions out there, and you aren't reprimanded for disbelief. You can question all you want. At least that's how it was for me. Should I ever have a child, I intend on sending them to a school like that

[–]kzsummers 112 points113 points ago

But they weren't convinced by Aquinas. They were convinced by being brainwashed since childhood, and then latched onto Aquinas as an intellectual justification for something they already believed. I have met a few Catholics who were genuinely agnostic until they read Catholic theology and found it persuasive, and I respect that, but the vast majority of Catholics who have read Aquinas didn't do it because they were seeking truth - they did it because they wanted a justification to keep believing what they already believed.

Also, Aquinas was remarkably good for his time but most of his arguments are obviously confused, wrong, or so underspecified they aren't even wrong. I don't understand why many religious people think he is so extraordinary.

[–]BugLamentations 24 points25 points ago

That's exactly like saying that most people who believe in evolution didn't get there by reading Darwin.

[–]kzsummers 6 points7 points ago

You're right. They did not. This statement doesn't have any bearing on the truth of evolution, of course, just like the fact that most Catholics haven't read Aquinas doesn't have any bearing on the truth of Catholicism.

This is not, by itself, a rebuttal of Catholicism; just a rebuttal of the idea that Catholics primarily arrive at their beliefs through Aquinas.

[–]stanhhh 16 points17 points ago

Bingo.

[–]j0y0 4 points5 points ago

Brainwashing aside, if someone is struggling to explain her beliefs rationally, then reason matters to her! Even when right, if you resort to belligerence it appears that rationality does not matter to you.

[–]TMade72 0 points1 point ago

But they weren't convinced by Aquinas

So you speak for every catholic now? good to know, thanks for telling me how I arrived at my beliefs, I really appreciate it.

[–]notsuresure 5 points6 points ago

Educated discussion is more than welcome, it's encouraged. His point is that bringing Thomas Aquinas arguments to the table is not common.

It has never happened to me before actually, and in my country 97% of the population is Catholic. And I discuss religion, a lot.

[–]neutronfish 50 points51 points ago

There's the basic fact that Aquinas essentially believed that any knowledge was just a pathway to belief in a deity so a debate about evolution with someone who claims to be a connoisseur of Aquinas would end up with "well, ultimately God created evolution." When all of your answers must end up with a reference to a deity, it's hard to have an open or honest debate.

[–]dasbush 35 points36 points ago

Thomas would not have said that all knowledge "was just a pathway to belief in a deity." He would have said that all knowledge is from (in the sense that the deity is Truth itself, and thus any particular truth is from The Truth) said deity in the first place (for other reasons) and thus could not be contradictory to it.

I think that those are two completely different things. Even if he is wrong, let him be wrong for what he actually held.

[–]krisreddit 4 points5 points ago

Would you explain this in more detail for those of us who haven't read anything by Thomas Aquinas? I was interested in what the argument would have been if the fat kid hadn't interrupted the thin kid.

[–]kingb00 4 points5 points ago

Better known as First Cause, the Catholic was about to say since everything we can understand has a cause that came before it, we can conclude that the universe has existed with cause and effects for literally eternity, unless there was something that caused it without being caused. This first cause would be God, and with the understanding of modern science that Thomas Acquinas didn't have, most Catholics would probably guess/assume the thing God first caused was the big bang.

This argument is why I am agnostic. Assuming the universe has existed forever and ever is the only way to get around the idea that it was caused by something powerful, and that seems like a far more ridiculous belief than "Jesus created the universe and loves me".

I mean, seriously, what do you atheists here think(not trying to be accusatory, just wondering...), that the universe caused itself? Protons and electrons fit together better than freakin' legos, and you guys don't think something way beyond our comprehension created that? Because earth is a small part of the universe?

Edit: changed the description in quotes from "Jesus loves me" to "Jesus created the universe and loves me".

[–]dasbush 3 points4 points ago

Actually, there is a grievous error in your understanding of the Prime Mover argument. For instance, Thomas granted (for the sake of argument) that the universe could be infinitely old, and there would still need to be a Prime Mover. The error is that you have put Thomas argument into a temporal context, which is not what he argued.

The reason for this comes down to the distinction between an essentially ordered series and an accidentally ordered series. In an accidentally ordered series, the later members of the series are not causally dependent on the earlier members of the series. The usual example for this is the case of a grandfather, father, and son. The father, once born in the first place, is not dependent on the grandfather to have a son.

An essentially ordered series is one where each member of the series is causally dependent on the member before it. Thomas uses the example of a hand moving a stick which moves the stone. The stick is causally dependent on the hand to move the stone.

Accidentally ordered series can pass back to infinity (once again, Thomas grants this for the sake of argument) while essentially ordered series cannot. And we are not talking about passing back to infinity in time, but actually in the present moment. In one instant, the stone is moved by the stick which is moved by the ape. But the ape is in motion right now, and hence something must be moving the ape. Now, if the thing which moves the ape is itself in motion, then we must search for the mover of the ape-mover. But if it is not in motion, then the essentially ordered series has ended in an Unmoved Mover.

Thus, the argument from motion, like the argument from efficient causality and, to a lesser extent, contingency, rely on essentially ordered series present in one instant, and not temporally prior motion.

Now, there are serious objections to this (I think the notion of Planck lengths/time is the best, since, to my understanding, there must always be a time lapse between any cause and effect - curious to see where that leads anyway). But the usual hogwash of "what caused God then?" just doesn't fly since we are only concerned with an essentially ordered series, wherein if the question "what caused God?" is even askable, then we aren't, at that moment, talking about the Unmoved Mover at all in the first place - thus rendering the question moot.

[–]Aix 14 points15 points ago

For example, Aquinas's first mover principle? Bullshit. Aristotle came up with that.

[–]locofreek25 4 points5 points ago

And the misattribution of this argument affects the validity or nullifies any value it has beyond itself in what manner?

[–]ZQMFGB 2 points3 points ago

Misattribution of the argument, when used to bolster the credibility of the church by giving credit for it to a Christian scholar rather than the Greek philosopher who actually spawn the idea, serves to demonstrate a dearth of independent critical thought among Christian scholars.

[–]f_myeah 35 points36 points ago

Exactly. Also, Aquinas was just altogether wrong.

[–]dem_paws 6 points7 points ago

The funny part about the argument is that if you're educated enough to know about it there's about a 100% chance of you realizing that a "first cause" is nonsense because it's the same as "turtles all the way down".

[–]mrplatypusthe42nd 5 points6 points ago

Implying that all atheists are like this is like implying that all catholics are pedophiles.

[–]wolverine02 36 points37 points ago

In his defense there are some jackasses who act like that

[–]denalli_j 519 points520 points ago

The Christian argument fails on its face. Aquinias started from the position that god exists, rather than the neutral position. In other words, his finger was already on the scale, tipping it toward "existence". He then sought out an argument to back up his belief - much like what modern 'creationists' do today. (Dinosaur bones? The devil put them there to test our faith.)

The argument fails because it cannot answer the question, who created the creator? Creationists will not accept the Big Bang Theory because it states "there was nothing, then there was something", yet they will argue Aquinas - who stated "there was nothing, then there was god. Then he created shit."

Had Aquinas lived in a time/age when one didn't have to worry about being burned alive for taking a neutral "I don't know if there is a god or not" position, he quite likely would've come to very different conclusions. He lived in a time when schizophrenia was believed to be "demonic possession" and genetic abnormalities and disease were either acts of a vengeful god or signs of the devil.

[–]shadofx 309 points310 points ago

you won the argument

[–]daxattacks 129 points130 points ago

I don't have time for this.

[–]DeanOnFire 35 points36 points ago

LOL flying spaghetti monster and you hate women and want to rape children and ur racist

[–]Le-Captain-Obvious 3 points4 points ago

Well, beginning with Aquinias's First Mover priciple, we-

[–]bokbok 0 points1 point ago

Ain't nobody got time for that

[–]Yugiah 17 points18 points ago

:(

[–]ragingnerd 27 points28 points ago

LOGIC!

no time for it.

[–]mal099 161 points162 points ago

I think you misunderstand the Cosmological argument (for the record, I'm not arguing for the existence of any gods as I'm an atheist too, just trying to further the understanding of what the Cosmological argument really is).

The CA doesn't really fail to answer the question "who created the creator", it states that, for the universe to exist, there has to be some kind of "unmoved mover", some ultimate first cause/level of existence/etc. that came "before" (not necessarily in time) everything else. This conclusion seems hard to escape to me, as even an infinity of causes that resulted in the universe could, in some sense, be seen as this kind of ultimate first level of existence. That thing is what shall be called "God".

Even as an atheist, you shouldn't have much trouble with this kind of argument up to this point. You might not agree that an ultimate cause is necessary, but at least you seem to agree that it is possible. You seem willing to accept the Big Bang as a possible ultimate cause. You'll probably disagree with the practice of calling this possibly non-personal cause a "God", but that's just arguing over which sounds to assign to a certain concept.

This is where the problems with the CA start, since this is where the theist has to give reasons why the ultimate cause has to be personal, and actually even has to be their own God. Basically, the theist will now go on to list a certain number of properties that the ultimate cause must have, and that, according to the theist, their own version of God traditionally is also said to have. I won't bother with most of them, since the ones I've personally seen were obvious bullshit and rely on severely redefining most of the terms. I'll instead try to explain the one that is at least kind of hard to counter, which is the claim that the ultimate cause must be "personal", and thus a theistic God.

Basically, according to the CA, the ultimate cause existed for a while (we don't know for how long), and then suddenly created/caused the universe. The ultimate cause must be unchanging according to the CA, or it would... constantly churn out more universes, I guess? I'm not really sure why. But yeah, it must be unchanging. But it must also be able to, at some point, create the universe, even though it hasn't done so before. And how can it do that? Well, the only thing that can be unchanging, and still do something new, is a "personal" being, that suddenly "decides" to do things. QED GOD!

Well, that's the Cosmological argument as I understand it. The problem of course is, that a personal being does change. Every decision you make, every thought you have, changes you, and only the childish belief in a magical soul can save you from this - but even then only if you completely ignore the fact that, even if your thinking is magic-based, your character still changes with every single thought. Magic is simply no remedy for determinism.
The other problem is that even if we do include the arguments for a specific God that I have left out before, those arguments never become specific enough to actually prove the Catholic God or the Mormon God or any other specific God. When I saw those arguments, I have to admit they reminded me more of Lawrence Krauss' idea of nothingness than the biblical Yahweh.

And this is why I think that, in the end, "Flying Spaghetti Monster" is a perfectly valid response to the Cosmological argument. Because it really does fit FSM just as well as it fits Yahweh.

[–]Roslov 7 points8 points ago

Personally I find the cosmological argument to be very weak, much like the other primary "science-based" proofs of God. It defines God so loosely that I wonder how they get from 'changeless conscious cause of the universe' to a God that doesn't like it when you masturbate or eat bacon.

It's just a logic riddle, and because nobody can answer with certainty how the universe began, we're forced to admit that the CA scenario is possible. Because that's what an intellectually honest person would do. Yes, given our current understanding of the universe, the CA is a possible explanation. However 'possible' does not mean true, or even likely.

[–]Nisas 4 points5 points ago

The whole argument is a massive game of special pleading and misleading definitions. First they declare that everything that exists has a cause. People mistakenly accept this claim because of causal relationships in the universe that form objects into things we call by new names. IE: a chair being built. This is a misleading definition because no part of the chair actually came to exist in its construction, but this statement will later be used to claim the universe itself has a cause, which is an entirely different form of something coming to exist than a chair being built.

Once they've led the opponent into accepting that things that exist have causes, they claim that there must be a first cause which was uncaused. This is where special pleading kicks in. "Everything that exists has a cause, EXCEPT for this thing I just made up which exists, but doesn't have a cause." This is called a contradiction which invalidates the first premise if it were true.

If they manage to get the person to accept that there must be a first cause which was itself uncaused, they then go into super special pleading mode and insist that the causer was their particular iteration of god. Their arguments really break down at this point because they've not really thought beyond this point. They jump into some wishy washy arguments about how the cause has to be "personal" and have a "mind", but never give sufficient justification for such claims.

Some have rebranded this argument a bit by changing it to "Everything that begins to exist has a cause." which removes the self contradictory part of it, but still has the problem of a misleading definition of things beginning to exist and special pleading at the end for their god.

[–]HannPoe 0 points1 point ago

Aquinas's argument goes from "In another theoretic course of events, it is logically plausible that the universe, the collective of things around us, might not have existed. Therefore, this existance must have an explanation." to "God is the explanation.", imo it's just reestatement of the obvious plus especulation. You can't assume God created everything because we don't know what created everything, it's contraditory and dumb.

[–]Cortlander 33 points34 points ago

This reply will probably get buried, but the actual reason that modern philosphpy doesn't use Aristotelian metaphysics (and thus Thomism) is because Hume and Kant have persuasively shown that Causal realism isn't real.

That is to say, causality is a description of what we experience, and not a neccesary attrtibute which we can use to derive a prime source for motion/change/existence what have you.

[–]velocitas014 13 points14 points ago

Just playing the devil's advocate here, but the Big Bang Theory doesn't actually say that something was created from nothing. This is a very common misconception. In fact it has nothing to do with the actual creation of our universe, but rather talks about how/why the universe expanded from a singularity which was in a super hot and dense state. The reason for the misconception about how the Big Bang explains the creation of the universe probably stems from the fact that this is the farthest we can see into the past. (Yes, see. Light travels at a fixed rate. If you look at something one lightyear away, you are seeing it as it was 1 year ago.)

TL;DR: the Big Bang Theory explains how everything expanded from a singularity, but does not explain how that singularity got there in the first place.

[–]pseudonym1066 40 points41 points ago

I think the wider point the cartoon is making is "don't be a douche in an argument" because people don't want to engage with you. To be honest I think it's a fairly good point. Upon what basis does the atheist straw man make the case that his opponent is a racist?

[–]Fuck_ALL_Religion 21 points22 points ago

Atheist straw man? The atheist in the comic weighs at least 200 lbs.

[–]frogandbanjo 8 points9 points ago

Maybe that's why the religious dude baled?

[–]Fuck_ALL_Religion 2 points3 points ago

Hay, that's a good one!

[–]Tonberry2k 11 points12 points ago

i dont hav time for this

[–]Nisas 16 points17 points ago

It also fails to specify the nature of the "first mover" which is why "lol flying spaghetti monster" is actually a valid rebuttal. Not very well delivered, but if the logic equally proves a flying spaghetti monster as much as the christian god, there's a problem.

[–]Amunium 5 points6 points ago

Good point. As much as they tried to make the atheist in the comic out as an idiot, he actually did win the argument.

Not that that was the way to go about it, but somewhat funny nonetheless.

[–]SiliconGhosted 17 points18 points ago

The meme does make a good point. Often here on Reddit and elsewhere, anyone who believes in anything other than atheism are often ostracized and trolled to the point where anything they say is drowned out by Redditors. It doesn't seem very fair or decent to beat people over the head with all the atheist stuff, anymore than fundie's do with their beliefs. It's a two-way street guys, have a little respect for others.

[–]K_Swag 7 points8 points ago

[–]GoldBeerCap 0 points1 point ago

Its this a reference to something?

[–]timeless1991 66 points67 points ago

The point of this meme is clearly to indicate that Atheists who wish to engage Christians are not open to the idea that the Christian might be willing to engage in the argument. They don't develop any one point, jumping from the same tried and true arguments. The discussion never develops on either side.

St. Aquinas was a very intelligent man who proposed certain philosophical ideas, each with their own merits and detractions.

So was Fredrick Nietzche, and Adam Smith.

Most discussions on this site though are founded in the assumption that the only Atheistic system of morality is based on the idea of Human Rights.

Edit: Fixed some haphazard spelling. Curse of mobile internet.

[–]R0gue_H3r0 6 points7 points ago

Yea, this is a fact that I constantly have to remember with my roommate, who is strongly religious but not dogmatically so. Still, while its humorous to mention only a fraction of an argument here, it dosn't work nearly as well with my friend, and rightly so. We already know the arguments, for us a quote, phrase or concept represents a huge argument and we can rightly laugh about the foolishness of religions, while talking with religious people though, its important to remember that in a rational discussion your arguments are valid, your jokes less so. I've had some really cool discussions with my roommates, just have to do it in the right format

[–]ogs 19 points20 points ago

to be honest I think both Christians and Atheists have the annoying habit of doing it. It seems to me like it's the Yanks who blow it out proportion, regardless of which side of the argument they fall on

[–]78946512354678897546 140 points141 points ago

This really isn't any worse than the worst stuff on /r/atheism.

[–]nc863id 119 points120 points ago

I'm guessing by "worst" you mean "what regularly gets voted to the front page."

[–]78946512354678897546 48 points49 points ago

Of course.

[–]ToastyRaichu 17 points18 points ago

How do you remember your username (assuming you do log out)?

[–]nxtm4n 26 points27 points ago

I think the answer there is "What does 'log out' mean?"

[–]78946512354678897546 19 points20 points ago

I don't log out. Every once in a while, my browser fucks up, and I'll have to make a new account. But I don't really mind. The only hassle is subscribing/un-subscribing to the subreds i like/dislike.

[–]gndn 24 points25 points ago

Orrrrr, you could just pick a name easier to remember?

[–]78946512354678897546 22 points23 points ago

Of course. But life shouldn't be too easy.

[–]Iraqi272 8 points9 points ago

Life Hack: copy and paste your name on a notepad doc that sits on your desktop!!

[–]WhipIash 3 points4 points ago

His password probably isn't much better.

[–]Super_Hooch 25 points26 points ago

and yet some of you DO do this.

[–]Nonbeing 19 points20 points ago

lol do do

[–]ThingsTrebekSucks 6 points7 points ago

lol. That means poo!

[–]Cappadocia 10 points11 points ago

I still find it amusing how similar Atheists are with Christians. The majority live their lives peacefully, happier in their belief/lack of that means they feel they have a better understanding and more control of their lives. Then, there's this tiny, extreme minority that apparently represents everybody else within that group who are dicks about everything so that the majority of the other side are left feeling alienated, preventing any kind of worthwhile discussion.

Also, can I just say that 'well, they were really unreasonable first!' is the worst. argument. ever. Just because you're faced with one extreme opinion doesn't mean you have to live up to the pastiche of yourself.

[–]allotherusernamestak 6 points7 points ago

This thread has now turned into "I'm better than both Christians and atheists".

[–]hacksoncode 19 points20 points ago

Except, of course, almost all the memes (and even reasoned arguments) around here are much more akin to "christian says something fantastically stupid; atheist says lolz".

[–]petzl20 7 points8 points ago

As opposed to what happens in actual society:

christian says something fantastically stupid; other christian listens respectfully.

[–]Fanta-stick 10 points11 points ago

Oh come on people. This was hilarious!

[–]SGSXR11 25 points26 points ago

So what is the message of the comic, that fat people are angry?

[–]DoesntWorkForTheDEA 20 points21 points ago

I think it means that there are stupid people and reasonable people in BOTH groups of people.

Yes there are stupid christians who spew hate and introlerance and stupidity and ignore arguments. But then you have atheists who saw one comic about how christians are bad and they suddenly form a superiority complex and think they are better than all christians and their stupid beliefs.

[–]dirty_the_lurker 2 points3 points ago

lol Christians who misquote and misapply scientific principles as evidence for a god who operates outside the laws of those very principals.

[–]atmosphericswim 3 points4 points ago

Atheists NEED to be LOUDER. Even the dicks. That is all.

[–]YoRpFiSh 3 points4 points ago

On it

[–]lejefferson 1 point2 points ago

I'm sorry but i've never seen a single atheist that argued this way. However I have seen the majority of Christian arguments go exactly like this.

[–]Operatics 11 points12 points ago

lol when Catholics behave like 95% of their congregation has actually read Aquinas.

[–]TentacleSpam 10 points11 points ago

Kind of like when atheists behave like they have a PhD in science when they're actually just muttering mumbo jumbo.

[–]tamatoaCoco 1 point2 points ago

Maybe they're not all racist and child rapists.. but they surely hate fat people.

[–]zombieregime 3 points4 points ago

you could swap whos talking and this comic still works. ignorance transcends everything.

[–]igor_mortis 3 points4 points ago

what a weak comeback.

religion is but a shadow of its former gloriously pretentious, arrogant self. kinda sad.

i'd like to see better memes coming straight from the Vatican's department of lulz.

[–]datums 4 points5 points ago

Hit the nail on the head there.

[–]t-mille 10 points11 points ago

r/atheism in a nutshell.

[–]KitsuneRommel 2 points3 points ago

You should try /r/worldnews if you want to see blind ignorance and hate. Pick any article that mentions Islam or Muslims and check the posts that get upvoted.

[–]AntO_oESPO 8 points9 points ago

Most atheists i meet are more self righteous than religious people.

[–]SavageConvoy 29 points30 points ago

There is no point in arguing with someone who has the trump card "it's that way because god wanted it, I know because god"

[–]Masterniles 88 points89 points ago

There's no point in arguing with someone who isn't open to the results of a rational discussion.

[–]david71119 11 points12 points ago

there is a point in arguing... because most people that are now atheists probably used that argument at least once when they were theists. If you are trying to argue with someone that is more then 40 years old, yes it is probably useless.

[–]msirelyt 7 points8 points ago

to add to this - faith means to believe something without proof. Arguments are typically won by providing evidence/proof to back up a statement. You simply cannot argue something that cannot be proved by definition.

[–]Thunder_child0 6 points7 points ago

I love how they portray us as fat.

[–]The_Yar 9 points10 points ago

I'm an atheist, but I'm gonna have to give this one to the Catholics.

[–]eric0rr 3 points4 points ago

Sadly that's pretty fucking close to reality.

[–]BenjamminVb 5 points6 points ago

Aquinias' First Mover principle is such a bad arguement...

[–]Sev3n 12 points13 points ago

I like how there is subtle discrimination by making the atheist fat and lack proper English

[–]isthisusernamevalid 27 points28 points ago

You don't realize that that comic was basically a parody of this subreddit do you?

I seriously see stupid shit like what the "atheist" in the comic was spouting off all the time. I freaking just saw a picture of a pineapple get upvoted to the front page because someone was saying it was Muhammad.

[–]kbz2007 2 points3 points ago

That's true. This is highly discriminatory. It shouldn't be posted here. Let's keep this subreddit to non-discriminatory pictures of Vishnu fisting Jesus.

[–]robmartin 0 points1 point ago

this was alot funnier that anything i expected from an FB page called "Catholic memes"

[–]alkoid 2 points3 points ago

My lack of believe does not stem from scientific evidence. It comes from a lack of evidence for a god. There is no point in using science in disproving something based on faith, also there is no point in ignoring science because of faith. The limited time you have in this lifetime is not a pursuit of truths, or arguing about whoever is right. We should use what time we have to make the best of life, to live to our full potential. And to make sure everyone else does so as well. We can worry about the afterlife when we are done with this one.

[–]djtheassasin2012 2 points3 points ago

What many people don't seem to realize is that there are perfectly reasonable people on both sides of every argument. And like it is with every group of people, it is always the worst examples that are the loudest.

[–]isenorcj 0 points1 point ago

in all fairness a lot of reddiors are like this

[–]maxamealious 0 points1 point ago

god does not love you

[–]Tenshik 2 points3 points ago

As if the typical Christian knows anything about the First Mover principle. More like "biblehurrdurr stop prosecuting me." I've only known two gentleman that were Christian and capable of defending their beliefs. One a young coworker that had a crisis of faith and found his back to God and my father-in-law. Both extremely intelligent and had found reason to believe as they did. I disagreed but essentially it came down to how you wished to view the world. They wished to view it as humanity being essentially a negative force if left to its own and I wished to view humanity as inherently good.

[–]Daidra 2 points3 points ago

I love how the believer is depicted as slim whereas the atheist is depicted as overweight. "Our enemies are fat/stupid/ugly/lazy/animal-like" is classic propaganda material. If the animation had been better I'm sure he'd have made the atheist look like a rat too.

[–]bexpert 0 points1 point ago

Excellent. Troll mission accomplished.

[–]1fifteen 0 points1 point ago

Why must we try and change people's minds? They believe what they do because of a lifetime of having it pounded into them. Instead of being a judgemental dick go for a beer, share a few laughs, wake up in an unknown place and argue about what happened the night before.....oh and your shoes....dude, what happened to my shoes???

[–]sunkencathedral 2 points3 points ago

The thing is, the 'first mover' argument really is nonsense - it's one of the worst arguments for the existence of a god and really can be totally demolished in a matter of a few sentences. So is it really a fact that atheists treated the author this way, or does it simply seem like this to religious people who use poor arguments and aren't able to comprehend the other side? If I was religious, and someone used arguments I couldn't understand and said my views had been debunked, perhaps I'd also say "Uhhh whatever!" and go make a meme saying atheists are silly. It's a hell of a lot easier than studying. Remember, the Catholic is the one spouting an argument that was solidly debunked HUNDREDS of years ago. If such an argument is used, it SHOULD be swiftly and decisively debunked. The atheist was right to do so. It is likely the Catholic author of the comic just didn't get it, and so decided to characterize the atheist as fat and dumb. Real mature.

[–]KatetOfone 0 points1 point ago

As someone of faith this subreddit is just intimidating to scroll through, at times it feels like it's just filled with hate. What's wrong with having christian faith while believing evolution is true as well? I always viewed a lot of the bible as a book of allegories, not actual facts (like everything was created in seven days). Why isn't it cool to believe in science but to believe that God is at the center of creation?

[–]One_Huge_Skittle 2 points3 points ago

Holy shit. Okay can everyone just accept the fact that there are fucking idiots, assholes, and morons on both sides of the argument? There are also theists and atheists that are great people and very rational. Some arguments go this way, and some, theists sound like assholes. There is literally no way someone can claim otherwise. Generalizing about an entire religion, race, or anything makes you the actual idiot. I'm a Christian, I think some of us are jackasses, and some are great. I have close atheist friends, and I think some are semi retarded. It's not the group, it's the person. This subreddit is the Fox News of atheism. And don't say "unsubscribe christianfag!!". I browse on a reddit pics app on my phone that shows all default Reddits. I am terribly sorry if I offended anyone, but I really felt the need to say this.

Also, there are bountiful amounts of comics and pictures depicting theists as the stubborn assholes, so if you act like this is offensive or out of line, you are an absolute hypocrite.

Fuck Steve Harvey.

[–]Zenkies 2 points3 points ago

Fellow atheists, believe it or not there are dumb atheists as well.

[–]Banana_Slut 0 points1 point ago

this is actually true of alot of arguements made by atheists. I am one, but i have realised that even though we smash the fuck out of them in terms of logic, we still cannot be all "LOl flying spagetti monster etc etc" all the time. We have to sit down, shut teh fuck up, and reason with them quietly. I have lost many friends because of my argumentative style but i have learnt to reason without going all Hitchens on their ass. They think that their arguments are sound, we just have to show them why they arent.

[–]mattroch -1 points0 points ago

Yeah, pretty much, luckily it's only young kids on reddit and facebook making themselves look like assholes...

[–]CaptainTheGabe 1 point2 points ago

He did win.

[–]The-Chosen-One- 3 points4 points ago

Did anyone else feel annoyed that the atheist in this comic was overweight for no apparent reason ?

[–]cmwoodford 7 points8 points ago

This is a slightly more subtle iteration of the "modern western Christian martyr" meme. We're supposed to feel sorry for them because some atheists are asses and to forget that (at least in the US) Christianity is enormously privileged. Christians who think accepting the existence of others makes them martyrs demean the real (if misguided) sacrifices made by actual Christian martyrs of other places and times.

[–]CaptainDickbag 7 points8 points ago

No it's not. It's a comic about a know-it-all dickweed who won't engage in actual debate and has nothing to bring to the table.

[–]Moochlol 2 points3 points ago

what's to debate, shits weak.

[–]Metal_Skunk 3 points4 points ago

I can't believe I'm posting here. And I'm going to get bashed by a lot of redditors. But, as a Christian I don't want to talk to some body who be little's what i believe. (ex: Oh, you believe in an invisible Flying Spaghetti Monster) That immediately tells me, you're not trying to persuade me into a reasonable argument. You're trying to insult me and my religion, and you just come off as an arse. However, I do have friends I can sit down with and debate in a manner where my beliefs are respected. It's a lot easier to take the conversation as a rational debate and my mind is more open to their arguments. Also, saying "there is no rational debate for religion" is just as annoying as belittling my beliefs. Remember, respect one another and maybe, just maybe, you'll gain ground on one side. Acting like a 5 year old and whining "You're wrong! I'm right! JUST BECAUSE WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN IS STUPID!" is no way to sway your opponent.

[–]vargonian 3 points4 points ago

The funny thing is that the Prime Mover argument could be thoroughly destroyed without much effort.

[–]BSaito 2 points3 points ago

From the standpoint of like-minded people, sure, but how often can you convince Christians that the Prime Mover argument has been thoroughly destroyed? Bet you Christians consider a lot of the arguments we tend to use against them to be just as easily destroyed, even if they aren't convincing us of it.

[–]redorodeo 2 points3 points ago

Well, the specific Aquinas first mover argument assumes as part of its proof that infinite regression cannot be possible because it would eliminate the need for a first mover. So, it shouldn't be too hard to discredit it. Although, I'm sure many if not most would cling to it real tightly.

[–]Dimpl3s 5 points6 points ago

This is hilariously spot on.

[–]ryanasimov 3 points4 points ago

No matter how much of an asshole the atheist was, the Christian still believes in things without evidence. No debate is possible if one side abdicates reason.

[–]Moochlol 1 point2 points ago

THis

[–]udbluehens 2 points3 points ago

Ive faced the same 5 shitty arguments for god over and over again. They are all shitty, and have been shown shitty for centuries. And im really justr frustrated and tired of dealing with them.

First of all, even if Aquinas was right, going from some unmoved mover -> christian god is some fucking goddamn magic. Moreover, his argument is mostly just special pleading with alittle begging the question built in. Its pretty awful. (IE, everything has a cause, except god, hes special, well, because jesus, thats why).

[–]Reid_Spencer 3 points4 points ago

The thing about the first mover argument is that it doesn't explain which religion is true, it's a god of the gaps argument, and god is more complex than the universe, so why couldn't the universe have started itself since it is less complex, surely that is a more rational beleif than "god dunnit." It's more of an excuse than an argument.