The double standard of having a choice on whether or not you want to be a parent.

Unconfidence · 29 days

I do love how when I'm arguing that people should be able to deny parenthood within the first trimester, I get told that I'm just trying to avoid my responsibility, and that if I don't want to be a parent I should keep my dick in my pants.

You know, those same arguments that are used against pro-choice women.

RadiumGirl · 29 days

Speaking from only a financial perspective, if the female aborts the pregnancy there is no financial burden on either party. However, if a father chooses to not financially contribute then one party is bearing the financial burden.

Roddy0608 · 28 days

I don't know. Women are sometimes told to keep their "legs closed". If only unwanted pregnancies could be avoided in the first place. That would make everyone happy. I think that some people just need to be more responsible.

axxxle · 28 days

Dear CS- you clearly do not understand that being a parent and procreating are two ENTIRELY different things. Parenthood is the lifetime of committment that comes post partum.

ibirchyou · 29 days

This is not a double standard. There is a difference between carrying a child and conceiving a child. Paying child support and being a parent are two completely different things. One is financial, the other is much more....there are much better ways to support what I believe you are trying to say.

gazork_chumble_spuzz · 28 days

Generally the same people who bleat loudly about not forcing any woman to be a mother if she doesn't want to will turn around and say that men need to "man up" and take care of the kids they created whether they want to or not. Huge double standard. Either both men and women deserve the right to bugger off and abandon their kids and be deadbeats, or neither do. You can't say that women deserve the right to opt out entirely but men do not.

I'm of the opinion that neither men nor women should bugger off and abandon their kids, either by aborting them or simply taking off and leaving the other parent on their own. It's selfish and wrong. Yes, I said it - abortion is selfish and wrong, just like running away from your kid is selfish and wrong. People shouldn't do that. And in this day and age when we have all kinds of options for preventing these unwanted pregnancies in the first place, there is really no excuse for it.

Punkgoblin · 28 days

The current laws are nothing more than single funded welfare. As a man, I should have every right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. If she wants to keep it, she can accept full responsibility, financial and otherwise. However, I should still be able to decide I don't want any of my DNA out there, just like a woman can.

jaurk · 28 days

I've never seen my Dad, I heard he's an alcoholic. I don't hate him at all, his decision.

I'm not expecting someone to devote their life to a child that they don't want. I don't take it personally.

I think it's very childish for most people who do. But their might be some sort of negatives such as no male role model. I don't know. His decision, who am I to get angry at him making that decision?

My life is fucking awesome, and peaceful.

I always find it odd when people say "Oh, you've never met your Dad? That must be so sad."

I just don't understand...

funkybart · 29 days

I imagine the roles reversed and there is no way I'd want a women or a man telling me what to do with my body. But if a consenting adult has sex they should be aware of the side effect of preggo and be willing to go with whatever decision the carrier of the child decides. If you don't trust the women to make the decision you want then don't have sex with her. I was outright with my girlfriend from the first time we had sex that I do not want kids and she agreed on abortion for any mishaps and is completely against kids too. If she wasn't ok with abortions I wouldn't be with her because i don't want to risk a kid.

Immigman · 28 days

Pro-choice is about supporting a woman's right to physical self determination. It's not about wanting or not wanting or not wanting to be a parent. There is no other area of law where we dictate medical decisions based on altruism. We don't mandate that people become organ donors or donate blood. You can be pro-choice and abhor abortion as an elective procedure. Pro-choice is simply about recognizing that a person's medical decisions should be made by themselves, in consultation with their doctor, rather than legislated by a group with a religious agenda.

toptrool · 28 days

you can't be for laws mandating child support and be against laws that bar [elective] abortions.

i only talk about elective abortions -- those done to abdicate personal responsibility due to inconveniences a mother might not want to face. the hard cases of abortion done to save the mother's life, or when a pregnancy resulted from rape, or when the child is severely malformed, are not included in this discussion.

when you bring this topic up to feminists, they give the (very weak) response of there being a difference between wanting to control your body and having an obligation as a parent. to truly understand why their bodily rights objection doesn't hold in this regard is to understand what parental obligations are.

here's a snippet from my post at r/prolife discussing this topic (relevant parts in bold):

more importantly, the relationship between the mother and the child should be emphasized, because the law does hold parents under some obligations to their children: they have to provide nutrition, shelter, and security for their children's well-being.

degree of dependency: a child, born or unborn, is always dependent on its parents. the degrees of dependency change as a child ages, and these changes are evident in law. the law a) penalizes parents for neglecting their minor children, and b) [in most cases] says children above the age of 18 are no longer under the obligation of the parents.

while you, as a parent, aren't obligated by law to donate a kidney to your ailing child, you are obligated by law to provide the aforementioned: nutrition, shelter, and security. most people's moral intuition would also agree that a parent has a responsibility to provide for their children. the uterus by design provides those to the unborn child. that is the uterus' sole purpose - to protect and nurture the developing child. thus, while the unborn child is still using the mother's body for sustenance, we are not opening up floodgates for forced organ donations - we are only asking for nutrition and shelter.

the person you were debating seems quite frightened about pregnancy and its consequences, however the burdens she fears do not compare to the legally binding one: child support. a nine to ten months pregnancy may be an ordeal, but it is much less expensive (and arguably less traumatizing) than 18+ years of child support demanded by law. so the government does in fact have laws in place to protect the best interests of the child at the expense of the parents.

if i had a soundbite for this objection, it would probably be "you can't be for abortion and be for child support/child neglect laws."

we have to approach this discussion with what parental obligations are first, and then move onto what abortion does (abdicating parental responsibility). if the feminists agree that parents have an obligation to provide food and shelter to their children, then they are being inconsistent by supporting abortion. if one method of child support (occupancy in the uterus) is not valid, what makes other forms (e.g., sending checks for 18+ years) valid? who or what makes feminists to be the arbitrators of what a valid form of child support is and isn't?

luveroftrees · 29 days

stupid cartoon.

AFewSecondsAgoDouche · 28 days

Yeah this really pisses me off.

I FULLY support a woman's right to terminate her pregnancy if she doesn't want to go through with it. It's her body, first of all, and she has to go through the pain and agony of the pregnancy and secondly, it's her child to mother and if she doesn't WANT to be a mother then she shouldn't have a kid.

But with that comes the other shoe on the feet. If women are let freely terminate their pregnancies, as they should be, then men should be able to terminate their responsibility to the pregnancy/child also.

If a woman accidentally gets pregnant and she wants to keep it but he doesn't, he should be allowed to walk away.

I think it should also forfeit any claim he has to the child later in life also.

poop_dawg · 28 days

Seriously? "She's pro-choice" is all society says?

No, pretty sure it's something more along the lines of "murderous slut going to hell."

I understand what the comic's trying to say - the women typically have more of a choice whereas men pretty much have no choice - but wow, I don't know if there was a worse way to put this.

berserker87 · 28 days

This is a stupid comparison.

-Shirley- · 28 days

Please dont forget that a woman risks her health with both, abortion and child birth.

Maybe that should be given a thought as well.

I think r/mensrights has many good arguments, but this one topic..

Oba-mao · 29 days

Can't you sign away parental rights?

joedude · 28 days

No one will admit or acknowledge, let anyone know of the injustice in birth.

The man either pays for a baby against his will, or gets a baby taken away against his will. both of these could/would destroy you as a human/financial entity.

The woman either A ) get's free money along with the child she wanted B ) gets rid of a baby she doesn't want with complete ease. In no cases is this womans humanity destroyed.

MantorokBeatsAll · 28 days

I don't really have a good opinion on fathers denying parenthood, but I have to say that aborting a fetus and not being a parent are not equal. The woman also has to carry the growing fetus inside her for a long time, which makes many changes to her body and brain.

SleepingOnMoonshine · 29 days

I'm pro-life.

Sebrinawithane · 28 days

I think this is a decision that the two people should make together. If the choice is to terminate, or if the choice is when the baby is born only one raises the child but the other gives financial support, or anything in between.I think the man has just as much say as the women and if this is a decision and conversation they can't have as adults then they probably shouldn't have had sex to begin with.

ehtheism · 28 days

If a man wishes to opt out of paternity, he must pledge to pay at least half of the abortion fee, if she chooses to abort.

If this pledge has been made and she still does not choose abortion, then he would have to pay part of the medical fee involved in child delivery. If he does pay part of the child delivery, he will be given equal custody as the mother, and be allowed to put the child up for adoption without the mother's consent, just as women are allowed to put up the child without the father's.

And I'm sure many men would choose to pay for the abortion or the child delivery rather than child support.

Mentioning that a man should still pay some of the abortion or child delivery fee should stop the "take responsibility for your actions" crowd, because paying for an abortion or child delivery is hardly being irresponsible.

People who say that men should wear condoms, get vasectomy, or just not fuck are just like the people who say that women should shut up about abortion rights and just keep their legs closed. I will not hesitate to ~~call those people a bunch of Christian fundamentalist right-wing nutjobs who probably also believe that the Earth is 6000 years old~~ call our their double standards.

teuast · 28 days

As a man, this argument has some problems. A guy who leaves is actually forcing responsibility for the baby onto the mom. If the mom decides to get rid of the baby, she's not forcing the responsibility onto the dad, she's saying that she's not ready for it for whatever reason. So I think that while there is a degree of truth to this statement, it's really comparing apples and oranges and the two situations you're comparing are really radically different.

Everydaywedo · 28 days

Uh.. Try being a female whos childfree and see who gets more shit for it. Man with no kid = Bachelor. Girl with no kid = will change her mind, selfish, cant keep a boyfriend, etc.

perezr8 · 28 days

I usually agree with many of the things on menrights however, it think you guys got it wrong on this one.

Women carry the baby for 9 months and it's their body that goes through the pregnancy not ours. The entire point of the pro choice movement is to allow woman to make choices about their OWN bodies. As a man we do not have the final say as to whether the woman should abort the fetus. Obviously many men may ask a woman to consider abortion if the pregnancy is unwanted but the choice is ultimately up to her since the pregnancy is part of her biology.

If the woman had the child and and left it to the father, I think most of society would not consider the mother pro-choice. She would very well be looked at as a dead beat mom.

iongantas · 28 days

I find the flipside of this disturbing also. That if a man wants to have a child (one that is already in the works), he has no choice about it, and the woman can just take it away.

SheriffBart42 · 28 days

This is what all this subreddit boils down to, in a nutshell, at it's simplest, at the core of, hits the mark, encompasses the essence, and wraps it all in a neat little package and did I mention cuts through the bullshit, calls a spade a spade, keeps it real, or shows the truth in the darkness of lies!

Can I get an AMEN!!!??11?1?1!?

Eryemil · 29 days

I love this.

ChaoticGood_Guy_Greg · 29 days

Can't be a deadbeat if the baby no longer exists.

PROFESSOR_CORGI_BUTT · 28 days

Yeah! Make all the women have abortions!

Um.

silverionmox · 28 days

Females have the right to terminate a pregnancy at will. This is justified, because it's her body. Since the male isn't pregnant, there's no need to extend that right to him because he's not directly impacted by the pregnancy.

However, by necessity this also gives pregnant females a chance to choose whether they want to be a parent or not. This creates an inequality, because males are definitely impacted by parenthood.

So the technically possible solutions appear to be either to give the male also the right to demand abortion of his child, or the ability to refuse legal parenthood (within the same time limits as an abortion).

Abortion because someone else demands it seems undesirable, so that leaves us with the option to refuse parenthood.

That would give men and women equal rights for refusing parenthood, but still not for claiming parenthood. That would require the female to remain pregant even when she doesn't want to, so that's not an option, therefore making it impossible to enforce: that inequality is inevitably until the arrival of artificial wombs, at which point it will be a moot issue anyway. It still is possible for the female to use the opt-out for parenthood, but still accept to carry the child voluntarily, but that's a very unlikely situation.

Another discrepancy exists: females can in some situation put up their newborns for adoption without risking punishment or child support claims. No such option exists for males

So: an option for the male to opt out of parenthood within similar time limits as an abortion (allowing for some extra time if he only learns about it later, maybe a week less than for abortion to give the female the option to abort in case she doesn't want to do it on her own) would be possible without infringing on the rights of the female.

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