Hitler looking at the Gustav Rail Gun (1942) : guns

Considering the Tiger, Panther and some models of the Panzer IV were capable of taking direct hits from the low powered 75mm gun on the Sherman, the increase of armor on the King Tiger on served to provide an even larger target for the British Typhoons and American P47s that had made tank hunting into a science. What's even better is that with all the increase in the King Tiger, the 17pdr OQF gun using APDS rounds that the British had equipped over 50% of their Shermans with (i.e. the Sherman Firefly), was capable of defeating the thickets part of the King Tiger's armor (front of the turret) at nearly 1000 meters.

These were not good tank designs. They forfeited any sense of maneuverability for a supposed gain in armor capabilities that only led them to be destroyed more easily.

They racked up kills because Tigers and Tiger IIs were not often used in a mobile manner, they were usually dug in on the Eastern Front picking off T-34s at like a kilometer away - a job easily done by a Krupp 88mm gun on the back of a fucking Opel truck. Especially after the Russians got their shit together and produced fuck 40,000 IL2 Sturmoviks, it was not feasible to have these sorts of tanks out from under tree cover during the day.

Secondly, the Bismarck was worthless because it had no supporting ships. They couldn't move it anywhere because the British actually had an astoundingly competent Navy that didn't focus on building two stupidly large battleships and a handful of battle cruisers and pocket battleships. The Tirpitz was sunk at harbor and the Bismarck was sunk by bi-planes. Neither did much more than harass Allied convoys (a job done more effectively by U-boats) and repel the Allied attacks that were aimed at them.

Sorry for the rant, and I don't think you're a bad person or anything, I just hate it when people start circlejerking over the German military.

[–]zma924 4 points5 points6 points 3 days ago

[–]DerMann 2 points3 points4 points 3 days ago

It's not so much inaccurate as it is oversimplified. Yes the Tiger II was a massive tank and they were very difficult for the Allies to defeat tank-on-tank, however, they did more harm to the war effort than good. They took up even more steel and were only marginally better than the Tigers they were supposed to replace.

While the standard Sherman tank used by the British and Americans was woefully inadequate against the heavier German tanks, there were a great deal of Sherman Fireflys in use. The Firefly was so feared by the Germans that they would look for the longer barrels and take them out first if possible - this led to the use of camouflage on the barrel of the Firefly that would blend into the color of the sky at range.

As I said, the overwhelming air superiority the Allies held after mid-1944 made it nearly impossible for the Germans to move armor during the day. Even with hiding tanks in wooded areas the amazing communication Allied infantry had with airsupport made tanks like the Tiger and Tiger II easy kills.

[–]bucherm 0 points1 point2 points 2 days ago

As far as the Bismarck, I knew it wasn't really an amazing ship, just massive and heavily armored

Eh, not really. I mean, it was the largest BB built at that time, but before the WNT came into affect the IJN, RN, and USN all had larger ships in advance stages of planning(parts had been ordered). The Bismarck was the result of a twenty year gap in battleship design on the part of the Germans, and if the PoW had set sail with functioning main guns she probably would have shot her to ribbons, maybe before the Hood blew up. The Germans really did not design good naval warships during WW2. Even their u-boots weren't particularly outstanding compared to Allied counterparts.

The main function of the Kriegsmarine during WW2 was to tie up RN surface forces which could be better put to use fighting the RM in the Med.

But, I agree they did look cool :P

[–]Lucifersamtaco 9 points10 points11 points 3 days ago

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[–]3klipse 3 points4 points5 points 3 days ago

[–]TheHairyManrilla 3 points4 points5 points 3 days ago

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continue this thread

[–]BabyWookie 0 points1 point2 points 2 days ago

Hmm. I don't know about that. The early T-34s had radios only in the squad commander's tank and most of them broke down or ran out of fuel, and were abandoned, but the supply lines for fuel and parts were non-existent at that point (talking Summer 1941). However, they greatly outmatched most German tanks' (Panzer II and III) in both armor and armament, and the Germans were quite surprised by that fact and began to study its sloped armor and the metallurgy involved in building it.

The common Soviet 57 mm anti-tank field artillery cannon proved to not be very effective against Panzer II's and III's, because it was designed to take out heavier tanks and the round went right through both sides of a Panzer, only making a small hole and destroying what was in its direct path.

The T-34 was modified throughout the war and became extremely reliable, trusted and beloved by its crews. During the harshest of Russian winters, in order to prevent their engines from freezing, the Germans left them running during the night. The Soviets could start a T-34 in the morning by building a fire under the engine block.

The thing was definitely outmatched during the Battle of Kursk though. The Soviets often resulted to ramming the Tigers. After Kursk, the Soviets had gained significant air superiority and tank on tank stuff became less important.

[–]Lucifersamtaco 0 points1 point2 points 2 days ago

panzer II and III were at this point not the main fighting force of German Armor. PzII's were recon tanks in 1941 and did a decent job at this.

PzIII's were Germany's most prevelant tank in 1941 and while mechanically outclassed by T34's they still managed to defeat them through superior tactics. Following combat reports Germany realized the need for a high velocity gun on the PzIII and fitted the 50mm cannon which could penetrate the T34 frontally at 500m.

By this time the Germans had the PzIV which was a great tank. The long 75mm could penetrate a T34 at any angle at 1,200m. This combined with superiority as a fighting unit through tactics kept the tank competent through the war.

The Germans left their engines running for many reasons, not limited to the fact that start up procedures for a tank requires minutes when you only have seconds.

You are right however, air superiority was the death of mechanized warfare.

[–]BabyWookie 1 point2 points3 points 2 days ago

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continue this thread

[–]IronMaiden571 1 point2 points3 points 2 days ago

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[–]zma924 -1 points0 points1 point 3 days ago

[–]Lucifersamtaco 3 points4 points5 points 3 days ago

Shermans were never a real threat to an operational Tiger however. By the time Tigers were fighting Americans they all had ace crews and were supported by reliable supply trains. Further more M-4s were not designed for anti tank fighting and were simply outclassed in every way. It took either mechanical failure, an act of nature, or rare specialized tanks to counter a Tiger and a King Tiger was for all intents invincible on the mechanized battlefield. Until the soviets designed the IS-2 which could take on both of the Tiger tanks, but were extremely unreliable, broke down more than the german tanks and burst into flame occasionally. Crafty Tiger and King Tiger crews were often able to kill them before they were able to engage regardless.

It came down to a simple reality. Germany attacked Russia which signed their death certificate. It allowed both America and Russia to start a production war that Germany had no chance of winning.