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So a christian anti-muslim nut job argued religion with me today (imgur.com)
submitted 25 days ago by downald
[–]lbspredh 20 points21 points22 points 24 days ago
yeah, but 400 years later nobody will give a fuck about 9/11 either
[–]NoMoreMissNiceGirl 2 points3 points4 points 24 days ago
I'd like to see an infographic of horrible historical events and how much people still care about them. Like- make similar jokes about them (9/11, the holocaust, the Titanic, the Boston massacre, slavery (American, UK, Egyptian, Roman, etc), the burning of Rome, and so on and so on and people could rate how upset they get over it.
So the saying "Comedy = Tragedy + Time" could be quantified.
[–]isometimesweartweed 7 points8 points9 points 24 days ago
*were
[–]MartelFirst 47 points48 points49 points 25 days ago
Muslims conquered by force most of their empire, including lands previously controlled by Christians which led directly to the Crusades (Casus belli for the Crusades right there), but for some reason people complain about the Crusades all the time as if it can be put in opposition to peaceful Muslims.
Also, invoking wars that happened centuries ago is quite poor. There are much more recent examples of Christians not being nicy nicy.
[–]ontrack 9 points10 points11 points 24 days ago
You should also be aware that in some areas the Muslims were welcomed because the Christians living in the area were being persecuted by the Byzantines for holding heretical views (Arianism). In addition the Byzantine government was not exactly benevolent in terms of laws and taxation. Not saying that this justifies conquest by the Arabs, but not all the inhabitants were sorry to see the Byzantine government driven out, which goes a long way in explaining why conquest was relatively easy for them (in addition to the long exhausting wars between the Byzantines and Persians).
[–]Purehatred 4 points5 points6 points 24 days ago
This. comparing ye olde timey history to recent events is pants on head retarded.
[–][deleted] 24 days ago
[deleted]
[–]MartelFirst 7 points8 points9 points 24 days ago
The US isn't in a holy war... sigh... The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have nothing to do with the US trying to impose Christianity. Only idiots believe that.
[–]Purehatred 2 points3 points4 points 24 days ago
I'd put them in the same camp as the "911 inside job" people.
[–]Stavros175 1 point2 points3 points 24 days ago
Thinking our government started a war that the people who were in power profited from is actually makes sense though.
[–]ThePhjl 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
lol. Dem sources!
[–]Eating_Some_Cheerios 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
As soon as someone quotes the daily mail, I automatically switch off.
That paper is a conservative piece of shit owned by Rupert Murdoch, you know, FOX news' owner.
[–]dmj19842002 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
11 year holy war, what about the numerous embassy bombings that happened in the 90's or what about the first bombing attempt on the WTC that happened in 93. Radical Muslim extremists have for years been on jihad against America and are ideology for decades.
[–]Moonstrife 2 points3 points4 points 24 days ago
the fact remains that extremist muslims believe it is a holy war and therefore it is.
And if I believe you're a twat, what does that make you?
[–]downald[S] 4 points5 points6 points 24 days ago
in your opinion it would make me a twat. This isn't an opinion though, it's literal truth. Extremists muslims are waging a holy war against the united states and it's ideals. Whether you want you believe it or not is up to you but they have clearly stated it's a Jihad, which is a holy war.
I'll gladly be a twat in your mind and millions of others. It's not my fault people don't do any research.
[–]tomsaz 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
In 04 on Al-Jazeera Osama Bin Laden himself he doesn't hate our freedom and way of life. I'm paraphrasing, but he said if I hated western democracy then why didn't I attack Sweden? It's our interventional actions. Are some Christians using this as an excuse to call it a holy war? Probably, but it's not the underlying reason.
[–]dumnezero 1 point2 points3 points 24 days ago
Except the Crusades were not just war on muslims, but a large social movement which would be better called an enormous lynching of the peoples of "Holy Land" by fanatical christians from all over western Europe and from all classes of society. Wars are fought with armies, not with entire masses of population gone out of their mind with wish to kill the occupiers of some holy place for God!
[–]gabriot -1 points0 points1 point 24 days ago
Yes but those aren't true Christians
/s
[–]lobstercorgi 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
Ooh, I know! Inquisition?
[–][deleted] 24 days ago*
[–]CaptainMidnight 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
http://i.imgur.com/uOE5L.jpg
[–]Abbrv2Achv 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
The holocaust was also worse and based on christian extremism but we didn't give a shit until we were attacked... Just like with islam.
...Aaaaand here's where i'm going to have to step in.
You could not be more incorrect.
The Holocaust was not based on Christian extremism. Hence the reason why a great number of Christians were killed during it, including 18% of Poland's entire Catholic Clergy.
Are you suggesting we didn't give a shit about the Holocaust until we were attacked? If so, then to put it quite frankly, you don't have a clue.
Let me let you in on something here, we weren't fully aware of what was happening in Nazi Germany before we entered the war. Believe it or not, the Concentration and Death camps weren't on street corners in between the grocery store and the laundromat, they were placed deep in remote areas, and all of them were in occupied Poland.
We didn't find out the extent of what the Nazis were doing until our troops actually discovered one of the camps. Most Germans had no idea either.
It wasn't that we didn't "give a shit", it was that we had no idea it was happening.
[–][deleted] 23 days ago
[–]Abbrv2Achv 0 points1 point2 points 23 days ago
You did not say we didn't give a shit about the war until we were attacked, you said "The holocaust was also worse and based on christian extremism but we didn't give a shit until we were attacked.", suggesting that we did not "give a shit" about the holocaust until we were attacked.
Britain and France also did not "give a shit" long after the invasion of Poland. Ever heard of the term "Phony War"?
And actually, we did care that an army was attempting to start a new Empire, that Empire being Imperial Japan. Hence our placement of trade restrictions and embargoes on tin, rubber, and oil after Japans continued ignorance of our terms. But I guess fledgling, post-WW1 America was supposed to be policing the entire world, right?
[–]CaptainMidnight -1 points0 points1 point 24 days ago
Honest feedback, you are a retard.
[–]Abbrv2Achv 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago*
Yeah, and Hitler was known for his logical thought pattern and pure honesty. He's definitely known for being true to his word...
Kind of like how he said he only wanted the Sudentenland. And kind of like how he signed a non-aggression pact with the USSR. Yep, he definitely kept his word on those major issues!
Hitler was, to put it plainly, a deranged, manipulative, pathological liar. He would lie about anything and everything, if only to get his way, and go to any means to manipulate the German people. What he said and what he did were two very different things. He displayed paranoia and his unstable nature on numerous occasions, turning on even his most revered Generals when his own plans failed miserably.
If Hitler was a "devout Catholic", then why did he systematically eradicate 18% of Poland's Catholic Clergy?
The list you've provided draws outlandish connections based on logical fallacies.
How about #43 on your list, in particular-
"I'll put an end to the idea that a women's body belongs to her . . . Nazi ideals demand that the practice of abortion shall be exterminated with a strong hand."
The author seems to try and draw ties from this to Catholic beliefs. Of course, there are numerous other reasons, many of them non-secular, to be against abortion. In Hitler's case, he desired that German women produce as many children as possible, in order to fight for Germany and in turn, produce more soldiers and laborers. Hence the reason why a medal was awarded to any women who bore more than 4 children.
Or how about...
On February 4, 1933 Hitler's Decree For The Protection Of The German People went into effect. It was immediately used against a congress of leftist intellectuals and artists for purportedly making atheistic statements.
Hmm. I guess I can't think of any other reason why an oppressive dictator would hold in disfavor a congress of leftist intellectuals and artists... /sarcasm.
You really don't have a clue, do you?
Would have won had they brought some cold weather gear but they didn't.
Yup, that sums it up, right there. Not stopping 20 miles outside of Moscow, not Hitler's mindless clinging to Stalingrad despite the urging of his top Generals to let it go, not his decision for a 3-pronged attack, not the advantages in Russian Armored capabilities, not the defending Soviet's scorched earth policies, not any of the other factors, nope. They just forgot to bring their wool socks! /sarcasm.
that he believed god told him to do.
That's what he claimed God told him to do. Just like he claimed that he only wanted the Sudentenland. Right now, I can say "God is telling me to start killing people." Does that mean God is actually doing that? Absolutely not.
Here's what I think you're having trouble understanding- People tell lies. Hitler was a notorious liar, and um NO, he did NOT keep his word. (as in, he annexed the rest of Czechoslovakia after stating that he only wanted the Sudentenland). That is a clear example of NOT keeping one's word.
I guess 3k accidentally or purposfully killed catholics takes away from the blatant genocide that he believed god told him to do. I mean clearly 3k outweighs 6+ million right?
Of those 3,000, 1,992 died in concentration camps. But I guess being killed at a concentration camp is an "accidental" killing right? 2,600 Catholics killed at Dachau? These weren't "accidental" deaths. These were deaths at concentration camps, the same types of deaths the Jews faced.
What I really want to know is, how is killing thousands because of their Catholic faith different than "blatant" Genocide?
I mean clearly 3k outweighs 6+ million right?
No, I never said that, and had no desire to convey anything even remotely resembling such a statement.
However, just because Hitler killed 6+ million Jews doesn't mean that the thousands of Catholics he murdered aren't important.
You see, here we have a man, claiming to be a Catholic, who is ordering the killings of thousands of Catholics based on their faith. Doesn't make much sense, now, does it?
[–]09112001 -20 points-19 points-18 points 25 days ago
Disregard historical facts, commence liberal circlejerk
[–]isometimesweartweed -7 points-6 points-5 points 24 days ago
Offering a sane look at the points being raised, DOWNVOTES FOR YOUU. Especially on your cake day.
[–]bookant 6 points7 points8 points 24 days ago
More like - offer a shitty strawman caricature of "liberals," when in fact most of us would agree that this post is historically clueless, DOWNVOTES FOR YOUU.
[–]Mekchrious 7 points8 points9 points 25 days ago
But no true Christian would kill others!
(sarcasm...)
[–]viperabyss 1 point2 points3 points 25 days ago
This. I've heard way too many people defending the violent acts of few Christians by saying they do not follow the true teaching of jesus.
[–]Gobbob 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
No Christian with their head screwed on.
[–]Mekchrious 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
So you're saying that some who do believe in a sky wizard creating everything to worship him have their heads screwed on?
Well, it's at least less insane than killing someone for not believing it.
Edit: spelling
[–]SirSoliloquy 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
Does the no true Scotsman fallacy apply when you're talking about people claiming to belong to a system of beliefs but going directly against the belief system's teachings?
Whether or not they're actually going against the teachings is debatable (The whole Old Testament/New Testament nonsense, etc.), but still.
[–]Mekchrious 0 points1 point2 points 23 days ago
Hey, sorry, I checked this on my phone, told myself I'd write about it later, and promptly forgot!
This is actually a decent point, and one brought up by one of my friends, who happens to be an intellectual Christian with a lot of insight on such issues. I think the answer to this lies in your second paragraph. If a religion's only rule was "Don't be a dick", and you were a dick, than indeed, you aren't following in the footsteps of dontbeadickism. However, with the very blurred line of the Bible, the many translations, interpretations and etc., I believe the argument holds water.
[–]owlsrule143 -2 points-1 points0 points 24 days ago
They would, but they can cause Jesus loves them. I'd be kinda freaked out if some random Mexican pornstar loved me
[–]Fullerer 12 points13 points14 points 25 days ago
Religions change over time. The pertinent question is what poses more of a threat today. Today, Islam is a far more serious problem and causes far more harm.
[–]Delvaris 9 points10 points11 points 25 days ago
"Religions change over time. The pertinent question is what poses more of a threat today. Today, Islam is arguably a far more serious problem and causes far more OVERT harm."
FTFY
Don't ever forget that Christianity, especially in the united states, causes harm daily. It's just the covert sort of slow boiling harm that eats away at communities and people from the inside out.
[–]labienus 11 points12 points13 points 24 days ago
You need to "eat away" at a lot of "communities" before it becomes equal to decapitating a child or filling a girls' school with poison gas.
[–]MPsai 5 points6 points7 points 24 days ago
Is shooting doctors or bombing abortion clinics approaching that level?
[–]labienus 6 points7 points8 points 24 days ago
Almost, but not quite, and it doesn't happen nearly as often.
[–]MPsai 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
It's still not a great attitude to instill in people. Let's hope it doesn't escalate.
[–]JasonMacker 2 points3 points4 points 24 days ago
I'm sure LGBT in Uganda would love to hear all about how Christians are peace-loving pacifists who would never hurt anyone.
[–]Fullerer 0 points1 point2 points 25 days ago
I try not to get into the business of tallying up levels of harm on competing sides, but I do think that the harm caused by Christianity today (and yes, it is real harm) pales in comparison to the daily bomb blasts, honour killings, acid attacks, female genital mutilation and censorship you see in the Islamic world.
[–]Captaincastle -1 points0 points1 point 25 days ago
Only because secularism is keeping Christianity in check right now, nobody can ever easily predict which religion is going to rear it's illogical head and mess everyone's day up, given the opportunity.
[–]Fullerer 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
Yep, no argument from me there.
[–]6pac 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
This.. So much this.
And I fear it is getting worse.. If they run rampant, soon the whole country is lost.
[–]dumnezero -2 points-1 points0 points 24 days ago
I'll tell you: Christians who can occupy a state and use its army and arsenal; specifically the WMD type of arsenal. Plenty of such potential cases; while for muslims there's just Pakistan and maybe, in a few decades, Iran.
This isn't just about military. This is about the oppression of millions of women, persecution of homosexuals and apostates, etc.
[–]dumnezero 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
You said "threat", I was assuming it was a life threat.
It's a threat to the lives too, millions believe the punishment for apostacy should be death, sometimes this is carried out. Then you have honour killings, acid attacks, medical problems from FGM that can result in death, poor medical care due to strange religious rules, etc.
I'm not saying Christianity isn't a serious problem in its own right, mind. Just not as destructive at the present time.
"Threat" refers to potential.
[–]Fullerer 1 point2 points3 points 23 days ago
Yes, my intention was broader than I perhaps initially made clear. My bad.
[–]R88SHUN 7 points8 points9 points 25 days ago
You know a lot of people who died in the crusades? I'm from Manhattan. Forgive me if I'm more concerned with Muslim extremists than Christian ones.
[–]saltlets 2 points3 points4 points 24 days ago
Dunno about you, but most Europeans were at some point on the receiving end of a Christian crusade aimed to conquer and convert us pagans.
[–]R88SHUN 3 points4 points5 points 24 days ago*
Oh that must have been hard for you! Oh wait, No it wasn't, because you were born in the 1980s and no Christian organization ever tried to kill you for who you are. Most of us however, Europeans included, have felt the impact of Muslim extremists in our lifetime.
[–]AlvinQ 1 point2 points3 points 24 days ago
Have you been to Norway recently? Christian white supremacist "Templar" crusaders are still around.
[–]saltlets 1 point2 points3 points 24 days ago
One sociopath is not a monastic order.
[–]saltlets -1 points0 points1 point 24 days ago
I don't understand what your point is supposed to be.
I'm not agreeing with the silly argument that the Crusades have anything to do with anything in modernity. I'm in fact pointing out that the vast majority of the Western world were in fact victims of the Crusades just as much as the Muslims were.
[–]Gullyvuhr 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
No. It wasn't, because you were born in the 1980s and no Christian organization ever tried to kill you for who you are.
Unless you're not white, an abortion doctor, gay, or an atheist, etc etc.
The only difference between Christian terrorism and Islamic terrorism is in how it's reported. Christians all proclaim loudly that groups like the KKK, or the Army of God, both who say they are doing God's work, aren't really (or weren't, in the case of the KKK since it's really irrelevant) Christians. For Islams, they tend to just report what the fundamentalists do without any regard for the other billion or two who are saying these people aren't in agreement with their faith.
[–]R88SHUN 1 point2 points3 points 24 days ago*
The only difference between Christian terrorism and Islamic terrorism is in how it's reported
I'm pretty sure the amount of people killed in the name of god in the last 15 years by each group is a bigger difference.
Christian extremists: maybe 1000. Muslim extremists: maybe more than 100,000.
[–]Gullyvuhr -1 points0 points1 point 24 days ago
Again, it would depend on what you consider to be "Christian Terrorism" and how selectively you report it. With Islam, you will consider anything done by someone who is a Muslim to be "Islamic Terrorism".
You could easily do the same thing for Christians in regard to: Abortion bombings and related killing, homosexuals, faith healing deaths, attacks on infidels (for instance: the Sikh temple attack in Wisconsin recently).. making the number significantly higher than 100. How about the fact that in American prisons alone, something like 80% of the population claims to be Christians? Can we lump their actions in as well?
Better yet, if we apply the same selective logic to Islam we do to Christianity, how many of the killings you attribute to them would get lumped under "crazy people" as opposed to "Islamic Terrorism"?
[–]R88SHUN 5 points6 points7 points 24 days ago
Go by killings in the name of god in the last decade or so and Muslims outweigh Christians by 100 fold.
With Christians you get basically a bunch of abortionists, maybe a couple dozen hate crimes and the 70ish people killed by that guy in Europe.
With Muslims you get thousands of suicide attacks thousands of bombings and shootings, thousands of honor killings and that's not even accounting for the rape and assault that happens under sharia law every day across a handful of countries.
[–]Gullyvuhr -4 points-3 points-2 points 24 days ago*
This is simply begging the question with selective logic.
You can nitpick all you'd like, the simple truth is that people don't fear Christians because they are never associated with the negative actions done by their membership, or in the name of their God. Hell, it's rarely, if ever, even reported in that fashion. With over 2 billion Muslims in the world, even if we pretend it's a 1:1 ratio of attacker to victim with your out of thin air 100k number, do you get how tiny a fraction that is of Islam? Even the 9/11 attacks could be argued to have been about anger at American policy moreso than a manifestation of fundamentalism -- but, let's be honest, that's just not as scarey.
It all comes down to how the reporting frames the issue.
[–]R88SHUN 4 points5 points6 points 24 days ago
people don't fear Christians because they are never associated to the the actions done by their membership
No, its because there are drastically less violent christian extremists.
Hell, it's rarely, if ever, even reported in that fashion.
No. The news never misses a chance to sensationalize something. Never.
With over 2 billion Muslims in the world
1.6 billion Muslims, 2.1 billion Christians.
even if we pretend it's a 1:1 ratio of attacker to victim with your out of thin air 100k number, do you get how tiny a fraction that is of Islam?
1:1? You think every suicide bomber nails 1 person when they blow themselves up in a crowded market?
No, the 1:1 ratio is far more common among the Christian extremists who assassinate abortionists or kill somebody for being a homosexual, which is far more common in Muslim countries anyway.
And being that there's a half a billion more Christians it is quite clear that Christian extremists are objectively less dangerous any way you cut it.
[–]Gullyvuhr -5 points-4 points-3 points 24 days ago*
American news will never sensationalize Christian actions for two reasons: massive backlash and protesting because they weren't really Christians, and the fact that there is NO clear definition of what a Christian is (ask 20 self proclaimed Christians, get 20 different answers). Islam however? Apparently they have weekly meetings and an unified ruling body that can speak for all of them, which makes their religion the problem.
If you actually look at the actions attributed to them what you should take away is an appreciation for the concept of separation of church and state.
It's neither here nor there, but I would strongly suggest reading over your news sources a little more closely and paying attention to the bias the article is attempting to feed on. "Muslims kill 200 people!", "Islamic Extremists bomb bus in crowded square", and "Police identify Army veteran as Wisconsin temple shooting gunman" (even though several reports indicate an underlying motivation to protect the White, Christian nation).
Just as a point of reference, here is a blurb from an article written by Mark Juergensmeyer (professor of sociology and director of global and international studies at the University of California, Santa Barbara):
"It is fair to call Page (the WI Sikh temple shooter) a Christian terrorist since the evidence indicates that he thought he was defending the purity of white Christian society against the evils of multiculturalism that allow non-white non-Christians an equal role in America society. Like the Oklahoma City bomber, Timothy McVeigh, and the Norwegian militant, Anders Breivik, Page thought he was killing to save white Christian society.
Though there is no evidence that Page was a pious Christian, that is true of many religious terrorists. If the hard-talking, swaggering al Qaeda militants can be called Muslim terrorists, certainly Page can be called a Christian terrorist.
Many of the al Qaeda activists—including the World Trade Center bomber Mahmud Abouhalima and the Iraq al Qaeda leader, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi—were attracted to the jihadi message not for reasons of personal piety, but because they were lured by the image of cosmic war. They saw themselves as religious warriors."
Also - Google number of Muslims worldwide, and you'll see it vary from site to site. As low as 1.2 billion and as high as almost 3. I split the difference.
[–]GuranaAddict -1 points0 points1 point 24 days ago
I think that one shut him up, hopefully.
[–]religion_is_a_lack 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
Christians were also at the receiving end of crusades. When cursades failed, Christian cities suddenly found themselves with an occupying foreign army that had nothing to fight for and no possessions. Being very Jesus like, the crusaders rioted and pillaged whole cities and then claimed some technicality or brought in question the religion of those cities even though they were very much Christian.
[–]Zed4711 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
Defenitly, I think most Christians think that there always in the right & haven't ever done anything wrong
[–]Noxater 4 points5 points6 points 25 days ago
The crusades are the one good thing the Catholics did. Look at the history of the expansion of islam running up to the crusades. Look at the whole time line, speed of expansion and the methods used to expand islam. If the crusade did not happen they would have over taken Europe completely. I would rather have my enemies fight each other then fight me.
[–]DukeCanada 2 points3 points4 points 24 days ago
Muslim expansion was stopped in Europe by Charles Martel and the Franks long before the Crusades. Rollbacks of Muslim Spain started as early as 800.
The crusades didn't stop expansion at all, if anything they only delayed the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire.
[–]Redezem 3 points4 points5 points 25 days ago
Yes, they stopped the expansion of Islam by rolling it back with expansionist Catholicism! Joy!
[–]AlvinQ 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
Could you remind me of the reason for the Albigensian Crusade? Thanks.
More like they destroyed local Muslim kingdoms until the Muslims started to gain solidarity and make one large empire that led to the Ottoman thing?
[–]rickygri 3 points4 points5 points 24 days ago
They were like 800 years ago, maybe its time to let it go?
[–]AlvinQ 2 points3 points4 points 24 days ago
Yeah - and while we're at it, there were these crazy preachers 1400 and 2000 years ago, boy is it time to let THOSE go!
[–]southernasshole 3 points4 points5 points 24 days ago
Unfortunately for you that nutjobs complains hold up.
We don't live in the middle ages, we live in 2012, where islamic terrorism is a serious problem.
[–]rory_guy 1 point2 points3 points 24 days ago
Or if you live in an oil rich country, then American invasion is also a serious problem.
[–]Googalyfrog 1 point2 points3 points 24 days ago
they were worse, but the thing is these days we are supposed to know better than to kill people over religious differences, back then no one gave killing a heretic a second thought
[–]n1nj4_v5_p1r4t3 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
9-11 is wayyyyy out of proportion. It did exactly what it was supposed to do, generate fear widespread fear for a single enemy. That last part is important...
[–]gkiltz 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
Don't argue with them. Just walk away. Tehy will only follow you so far.
[–]mcole666 1 point2 points3 points 24 days ago
European Christianity back then was very different than Christianity today. Medieval Europe was an aberration. The Bible was only available in Latin and doctrine was whatever the Church said it was. Your Christian nutjob friend probably wouldn't recognize it as the same religion.
[–]DroodEdwin 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
if your argument originates from the 13th century then you don't have an argument.
[–]TsukiBear 1 point2 points3 points 24 days ago
Yes, you are. You take history in the context of the era.
[–]dacklives 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
Hey, no Americans died in the crusades! Therefor not really all that bad. I hope you can smell the sarcasm here.
[–]lankist 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
Am I the only one who realizes Allah and Yahweh are the same character?
[–]Flare_Bear 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
One of my ancestors was a important leader in the crusades. My family is actually proud. I don't understand why.
[–]Chimerical_Shard 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
which one?
My family fucking sucks! I just searched my dads last name and came up with Konrad Von Marburg. He was another fucking crusade ass hole! Fuck my family!
[–]WiseOctopus 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
9/11 happened in America, therefore it must be worse. For the same reason, it's okay to joke about Haiti or the Japan earthquake but joking about 9/11 is just wrong.
[–]OKImHere 1 point2 points3 points 24 days ago
joking about 9/11 is just wrong
Knock knock.
[–]somestupidname1 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
The crusades 'were' worse, not was. Just had to point that out.
Yeah i try telling my friends about the crusades and they discard it as "old history we don't need to know about"
I fear that the 10th crusade is coming....and it will be fought not by men of religion but by surrogate of nations, by those who do not stand up against injustice but rather cower in fear and obey
No idea. Their last name was something to the tune of Hellrung.
[–]angg56 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
Am I the only one around here who thinks we all need to get the fuck over it? It's done now, no need to prolong it.
[–]lordtyp0 0 points1 point2 points 23 days ago
Think is there were raids back and forth in that era. Muslims had taken and held portions of Europe-most notably Spain for a couple hundred years. The crusades were sparked to take that back first if I recall right.
[–]tevlen -3 points-2 points-1 points 24 days ago
If the crusades aren't enough, keep in mind that (yes, Godwin's law) the Holocaust was also done in the name of Christ.
[–]Jzadek 2 points3 points4 points 24 days ago
Debatable. I'm not saying you're wrong, per se, but the evidence for that is shaky, and regardless, differed from Nazi leader to Nazi leader. For some, it was simply a political end, others believed themselves to be getting rid of an 'economic parasite', and yet more, as you say, were killing infidels. But I wouldn't use the Holocaust as a clear example of christians killing in the name of god.
[–]DarvelMk 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
I would have to disagree.
The Crusades, while stupid and pointless, were wars fought in a pretty barbaric part of human history. One army fought against another army and after all the fighting was done there was raping, pillaging and all that, but as I said, it was in a period when those things were pretty much a given in any war. I'm not saying it was alright, but everybody at the time did it, so I guess they thought it was OK.
9/11 was a terrorist attack done in the 21st century, when people are supposed to be civilized, whose sole intention was killing civilians and spreading fear. All of it motivated by some retarded idea that should have died off back in that barbaric part of human history.
But then again I also don't like the "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" bullshit. There is a clear distinction between the two.
[–]thechapattack 1 point2 points3 points 24 days ago
Why not mention a more recent example like the genocide of Bosnian muslims at the hands of the Greek Orthodox church/forces
[–]Thatoneguy425 -3 points-2 points-1 points 24 days ago
The crusades WAS definitely worse than 9/11.
[–]GUI_Junkie -6 points-5 points-4 points 24 days ago
Killing >100.000 Iraqis (who had nothing to do with Al Qaida) in revenge for 9/11 (< 3.000 dead), might be considered worse than 9/11.
Of course these Iraqis don't count as they were not Christians, while 100% of the people in the WTC were Christians.
You don't have to dive into history to make comparisons. Besides, the crusades didn't end well for the Christians.
[–]saltlets 5 points6 points7 points 24 days ago
They also weren't killed by US forces, but overwhelmingly by "insurgents", who are religious lunatics.
It's perfectly fine to think the war was executed badly, started on false pretense, and was generally a mistake. But if you think the Iraqis were better off under the rule of a genocidal sociopath like Saddam Hussein, you're just being stupid.
[–]GUI_Junkie 0 points1 point2 points 23 days ago
Well, the Iraqis that have died these years would have been better of alive, but maybe that's just an opinion. I don't know how Iraq is better off after the total war of destruction. Have the USA rebuild all the schools, hospitals, industry and roads? Are they going to?
Do you have statistics for your statement that the "insurgents" killed more than US forces? I'd like to see those.
[–]saltlets 0 points1 point2 points 22 days ago
Way more Iraqis died under Saddam's rule, it's about a ten fold difference.
Yes, yes I do.
http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pmed.1000415?imageURI=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pmed.1000415.t001
[–]GUI_Junkie 0 points1 point2 points 22 days ago
Interesting link, thanks. I fail to see how “11,516 (12,4%) coalition only” is less than “9,954 (10,7%) anti-coalition only”.
Anyway, I was trying to convey the thought that the US declared a 'War on Terror', and the coalition attacked Iraq, even though Iraq didn't have anything to do with terror. Therefor, all the dead are to be included, not just the civilians. The soldiers on both sides, the 'insurgents', the civilians, the 'contractors' (mercenaries).
It's like someone got hit by a drunk driver and you take a truck and drive it into the crowd. More than 100.000 people who had nothing to do with terrorism, have died.
On the other hand, another dictator, Muammar Gaddafi, who did support terrorist groups was not tackled by the 'War on Terror'.
[–]gkorjax 2 points3 points4 points 24 days ago
100 percent of the people who died on 9/11 were christians?
Really? I didn't realize the world trade center only allowed christians in there.
Part of me suspects that you might be making stuff up....
Yes the porcentage was made up, all types of people were killed. Maybe some were atheist. My comment was meant to be ironical.
[–]gkorjax 0 points1 point2 points 23 days ago
You might consider taking a look at your argumentative style. I had no idea that you were intending any irony. From the down votes you received, it seems others also didn't get it.
I always get into trouble when I mix serious with irony.
[–]The_Dorklord -1 points0 points1 point 24 days ago
I'm amazed you're getting upvoted. These faggots flip-flop worse than most politicians.
[–]Redezem -3 points-2 points-1 points 25 days ago
Well, if you look at it mathematically... The crusades had far more people killed, raped, molested, etc than two planes into buildings did. The trick is that the crusades weren't recorded on live TV.
And importantly (before I forget) The Crusades consist of the Catholic push followed by the Islamic retaliation. Never forget there were two sides in that.
[–]MartelFirst 5 points6 points7 points 25 days ago
No, the Crusades were a Christian retaliation to an Islamic push.
[–]Polskyciewicz 1 point2 points3 points 24 days ago
It was caused by a long chain of events that you could trace back to Manzikert in 1071.
[–]Redezem 0 points1 point2 points 24 days ago
Same deal, functionally. Don't tell me there was not a load of fighting over the area, back and forth. Cause I'm pretty sure that's all documented :P
[–]malachi23 1 point2 points3 points 24 days ago
The Crusades also happened hundreds of years ago and are less relevant to anything happening today than the price of tea in China a hundred and fifty years ago to a man with no taste buds who lives in a box under a bridge.
Honestly, fuck Christians and their hypocrisy but the Crusades comparison is childish -- the only way to make it even more childish is to put it in "meme" format.
Well, yeah. There are many things. Everyone knows about the Crusades, tis the quick and easy (and mostly irrelevant) path.
[–]sloopkogel -1 points0 points1 point 24 days ago*
The "crusades" ware an unavoidable tug of war, it turned out to be fought with christianty pushing into "the holy land" but could easily have been the other way around with islam pushing into Europe. This is simply what happens when 2 sides of armed religous zealots push for wider "acceptance" of their perticular brand of imaginary friend.
And as for the comparison between the two events it's non-existant. If you want to argue over which is "worse" it's like smelling two turds and deciding which smells best. Granted, supporters of one of the turds actively hold your head over the turd and you have to like the smell on pain of death. Where as the supporters of the other turd only tell you that you are not a proper person if you don't like the smell of their one. But in the end they are both still shit.
tl;dr Zealots will fight eachother and religion is like a box of turds.
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