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top 200 commentsshow 500

[–]lostrock 578 points579 points ago

[–]norealpurposehere2 102 points103 points ago

Captain Falcon hates Julian Assange.

[–]Pokemaniac_Ron 51 points52 points ago

FALCON PRESS CHARGES!

[–]Viralrushed 157 points158 points ago

[–]tesseracter 42 points43 points ago

Actually, no. That was a Tool Assisted Speedrun, it was manipulated frame by frame and reversed when something went wrong. Probably over a hundred thousand runs put together.

[–]xHaUNTER 7 points8 points ago

What is the point of TAS? I don't really understand it.

[–]alphazero924 15 points16 points ago

To get literally the fastest time possible. It's not about showing off like the other people who commented said. It's about pushing the game to its limits.

[–]andycyca 13 points14 points ago

And believe me, when TASers talk about pushing the game to its limits they really mean it. It ranges from "how to get 100% as fast as possible" (see a 120 star run in Mario 64) to "how to beat the game as fast as possible" (see Pokemon Yellow beat in under 5 minutes)

TASing is, in those cases, an exercise in learning how the game is built, planning an optimal run (and then perfecting the optimal run) and how it can be manipulated to be won. Many people call this downright cheating, but I think it goes beyond that. It's not about "the cheat" in itself, but how to actually use it.

This is similar (in a way) to a study where the examiners told the students that they were expected to cheat in a very difficult test. It wasn't about the cheat per se but more about creativity and solution hacking.

[–]iceman78772 1 point2 points ago

To see how quickly you can finish a game.

[–]LiveByTheGuN 13 points14 points ago

Oh god, that made me laugh hard.

[–]SlimMaculate 40 points41 points ago

Damn, Falcon was a beast in Melee. It's a shamed he got nerfed to hell Brawl.

[–]Gortex9991 35 points36 points ago

I prefer classic n64 version best :D awesome party game

[–]reverendnathan 22 points23 points ago

Yes! Ness and Falcon were truly amazing unlockables. Master their power and be great, but learn Pikachu and Kirby's power and be very good. A true legend could set Jigglypuff one life stock against three 99 life stock experts and win, though.

[–]Require_More_Mineral 14 points15 points ago

I guess I was never a legend, but back in the day I could fuck peoples shit up with fox. He was ungodly if you could get someone into the air.

[–]generalvagmaster 2 points3 points ago

Fox was my go to. Up A, up A, up A.

[–]craylash 1 point2 points ago

Down+A was op on 64

[–]w00tZy 3 points4 points ago

Fact!

[–]voidwhereprohibited 16 points17 points ago

Love me a good TAS.

[–]vinng86 7 points8 points ago

I love TAS also. I even tried making one on SSB a while ago. I present to you, Link being the biggest projectile asshole in history.

[–]boot2skull 1 point2 points ago

Dat TAS

[–]Bucky_Ohare 57 points58 points ago

... Holy shit.

Y'know, I thought I was pretty good as Marth, schooling my friends repeatedly, to the point sometimes I'd end up doing a comp stomp and them watching. I had a moderate success rate, but they liked seeing me sweat sometimes.

Watching that fracking mastery though, holy shit. Titanium balls and the brain of professor X.

[–]jorgamun 121 points122 points ago

This is tool assisted. It's slowed down to individual frames and he does the moves at precisely the right moments. He doesn't actually play that insanely.

[–]buffasnow 1 point2 points ago

Stage cleared

[–]WindsAndWords 46 points47 points ago

Except the guy used a program so that he could do all of that. It wasn't done normally...

[–]Bucky_Ohare 61 points62 points ago

... Well, on the bright side, it's not quite as ego crushing anymore.

[–]WindsAndWords 21 points22 points ago

Definately not, don't worry. I doubt any human not using tools could do something like this. Atleast, not get hit a minimum of once.

[–]Kaisen32 5 points6 points ago

That video is fanTAStic...

[–]andyboylan 1 point2 points ago

I actually felt sorry for Dr Mario at the end. He never stood a chance .

[–]Lowtiersteve 104 points105 points ago

Thank you for showing us the moves.

[–]MovesShown 29 points30 points ago

Moves shown.

[–]aznwhitey 332 points333 points ago

HAPPY FEET.

[–]Sukoh 343 points344 points ago

[–]billmar12 116 points117 points ago

[–]Stanlot 184 points185 points ago

THAT AIN'T FALCO

[–]SavinThatBacon 137 points138 points ago

WHERE YOU AT

[–]Foxassault 148 points149 points ago

MY DICK HURTS

[–]VirtualAnarchy 98 points99 points ago

GETCHO ASS WHOOPED

[–]SuperomegaOP 53 points54 points ago

WE'RE ALL A LITTLE HARD

[–]logangarvey 25 points26 points ago

WHAT IT IS, BLOOD?

[–]XXShigaXX 10 points11 points ago

DAT UP SMASH

[–]FlyinNinjaSqurl 41 points42 points ago

WE'RE ALL A LITTLE BIT HARD

[–]italia06823834 11 points12 points ago

We're all a little bit hard right now...

[–]DaddyDanceParty 21 points22 points ago

MY DICK HURTS.

[–]buttunz 1 point2 points ago

OH (OH) OH (OH) OH OH OH OH OH OH

[–]kingtrewq 19 points20 points ago

I wombo, you wombo. He, she, we wombo. Wombology: the study of wombo

[–]RealityRush 55 points56 points ago

Uhhh, as someone who didn't play smash bros much, wtf just happened?

[–]Zuken 274 points275 points ago

This is a 2v2 team match. Team attack appears to be turned on. It's Fox/Falcon team vs. Fox/Fox. While green fox was distracting one of the blue foxes, falcon up+A smashes the other into oblivion, turning his bones into chicken pot pie, and establishing his dominance. Falcon then teaches the other Fox the meaning of existence with the Knee of Infinity and sends him into Valhalla. The one blue fox remains. So blue fox gets pincer maneuvered between them and he's fucked and knows it. Green fox grabs his ass and starts kicking the shit out of his ribs. He gets out, then falcon grabs him and seismic slams him into carbon dust, reconstructs his atoms, and puts his memories back in place. Rinse and repeat. Blue fox flies off the edge and Falcon comes to finish the job with the Holy Almighty Knee of Justice and Purity. Everybody freaks out.

Note to reader, Wombo Combo is the team fucking shit up. Happy feet is a generic term for spamming Falco's down aerial. as it's considered one of the more broken attacks in the game -Ripple884.

tl;dr Falcon is the beginning and the end.

[–]hgkp 35 points36 points ago

Happy Feet is also the name of a series of combo videos by Zhu.

[–]rocketman0739 81 points82 points ago

It's also a kids' movie about dancing penguins.

[–]tenkenjs 22 points23 points ago

Yeah, that's just were he got the name from. I went to highschool with Zhu and still hang out with him on a semi regular basis.

[–]budbuds 21 points22 points ago

Someone just name dropped a super smash bros players name, That's enough internet for today.

[–]Sureiyaa 1 point2 points ago

Well, they're friends. It's not like he actively follows the Smash Bros. "Community".

[–]budbuds 4 points5 points ago

That's kind of how namedropping works

[–]rocketman0739 1 point2 points ago

Will the name become associated more with the videos than the movie? That is...Zhu's Hope.

ducks

[–]gingerbreadpimp 29 points30 points ago

The Wombo combo was the name of a combo pizza and drink from a pizza place in California. A lot of smashers ate there at the tournament, and the commentator (Homemadewaffles) turned it into one of the most badass combos ever performed

[–]justifiesactions 10 points11 points ago

excellent explanation, You are going to have to write my biography

[–]thisguysoriginal 2 points3 points ago

uhhh.... i just got home and im drunk as fuck and this is the best thing I have ever read. upvotetheshitoutofthisplease

[–]RealityRush 14 points15 points ago

Okay.. but what is the significance? Was it hard to do or something?

[–]shadofx 51 points52 points ago

it's a high-risk combo that takes guts to commit to. the falcon punch (that last move) has a long cast time and is (maybe) the second most easy to miss attack in the game, and it happens off screen which is nice too

[–]TJarnold92 13 points14 points ago

With #1 being the taunt Luigi has, which is an insta-kill but almost impossible to land (he's just casually kicking the pixel next to him).

[–]EchoingSong 17 points18 points ago

Not an insta kill, but a strong spike. If they're over the edge at any reasonable damage they're not recovering after getting hit by it.

The hard part is landing it due to you having to be on the ground to taunt in the first place, and the taunt's hitbox has to be over the edge... and it has to land. You get it.

[–]PSFalcon 5 points6 points ago

It's not a spike, it's a meteor smash. God, I've played this so much :(

[–]x21in2010x 3 points4 points ago

I think #1 is actually Roy's Flare Blade fully charged. More satisfying than 1,000 counters.

[–]Merew 5 points6 points ago

I'd actually say it's Gannondorf's forward tilt.

[–]PSFalcon 10 points11 points ago

utilt*

[–]djperry 6 points7 points ago

I'm slightly surprised it took 49 minutes for someone to correct this. But yes, you sir are correct.

[–]RealityRush 7 points8 points ago

Ahh, thanks!

[–]capybara123 35 points36 points ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXgpGBbh5r8

That video can put some of the techniques into perspective, but then you have to coordinate that between two people.

[–]Deathmask97 12 points13 points ago

That is just pure badassery.

I used to be good at Melee but that is on a whole new level I've never seen before.

[–]hqhqhq 1 point2 points ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0G72xhoOXQ

If you're interesting in seeing ssbm played at a tournament-level, this is the first match of a great 5 game set.

[–]capybara123 1 point2 points ago

www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj_54hAA3f0

My favorite video to show people how fast it can actually be played.

[–]ffn 11 points12 points ago

On top of everything, the character he's playing, Captain Falcon, uses a move called the Falcon Punch to finish bowser. The character screams out "FALCON....PUNCH" and if it hits, it often kills. Because of how difficult it is to land, and how much noise the move makes, someone or everyone playing/watching laughs when it works. If you were to ask a smash player to name the most memorable attack in the game, this move would probably be chosen the majority of the time.

Watching this video may give you an analogue to how over the top the move is in the game.

[–]stuffekarl 6 points7 points ago

It is also the #1 most effective way of dealing with teen pregnancy.

[–]juli0o12 10 points11 points ago

He just killed a huge Bowser in a super bad ass way. Not hard to do, just incredibly bad ass.

[–]juli0o12 8 points9 points ago

Sorry I thought you meant the gif. Yea the "Wombo Combo" is pretty hard to do imo. Just a series of synchronized grabs and hits in a 2 vs 1 situation. In this case followed by a bad ass knee KO.

[–]HeyYouYoureAwesome 6 points7 points ago

WOMBO COMBO JUST HAPPENED

[–]skyman724 18 points19 points ago

DAMMIT I KNEW I SHOULDN'T HAVE HAD MY HEADPHONES ON MY DICK

MY DICK HURTS

[–]afroslack 1 point2 points ago

This is like a classic youtube video for me, too funny.

[–]TehWut 1 point2 points ago

OOHHHHHHHH OOOOHHHHHHH

GET YO ASS WHOOOP

[–]Maester_Hodor 14 points15 points ago

What does happy feet and wombo combo mean? My friends say it and I like saying it cause its fun to say but I have no idea what it means. Can someone explain please :)

[–]DFP_ 14 points15 points ago

It doesn't.

[–]Zuken 9 points10 points ago

My comment is no longer valid. Look to the person who commented below.

[–]Ripple884 26 points27 points ago

Incorrect. Happy feet is a generic term for spamming Falco's down aerial. as it's considered one of the more broken attacks in the game. you have confused it for Dash dancing.

Wombo combo is featured at the top of the page. it was a 0-death team combo on a high level player named Zhu, Who also put out a combo video called Happy feet.

[–]Ionlywanttoinsultyou 3 points4 points ago

When I first watched it, I was like "that's not really that impressive". Then I reminisced about the game, remembered fighting giga bowser... sheeeit. Anybody else play that challenge "The Showdown"? I could not for the life of me beat it, and then I found out online that jigglypuff has a move that essentially makes the match trivial..

jigglypuff...

[–]EchoingSong 10 points11 points ago

Dat world record.

My best clear is 3x as long :(

[–]avree 435 points436 points ago

[–]Afro-Ninja 525 points526 points ago

thanks for posting my vid!

[–]jag424 184 points185 points ago

Make it viewable for mobile

Edit: Holy Fuck!!! I didn't expect to create a huge comment list with only a few words.

[–]8-orange 30 points31 points ago

I don't get that you didn't work out the pattern!

Artist: Sonata Arctica

Nothing that's flagged with an artist is playable over mobile.

There's been no announcement of this, and I've never heard anyone talk about it - but it is clear from the searches and featured vids that this is the case - so why don't more people know about it?

[–]naggetfiggor 1 point2 points ago

Perkele!

[–]Ghost4000 67 points68 points ago

You don't always get a choice in the matter. I have a video that due to copyright claim can not be viewed on mobiles.

[–]RdRunner 116 points117 points ago

I believe you, but that makes no fucking sense

[–]Kon-chezz 48 points49 points ago

Welcome to the busy world of copyrights.

[–]killzy707 35 points36 points ago

With alien blue in "optimal" view I just watched the vid on my phone.

[–]Banana_suit_guy 6 points7 points ago

Same here. High five!

[–]MilitaryBees 1 point2 points ago

Son of a bitch. That's quite the trick there.

[–]userhunter 1 point2 points ago

And then: the Content is not available in your country tableflip

[–]ludacity 1 point2 points ago

It's because of ads, or rather, lack there of in this case.

[–]tedach 1 point2 points ago

This is probably a dumb question, but what is the purpose of disabling videos for mobile users? It seems like an arbitrary restriction.

[–]Jess_than_three 7 points8 points ago

Tell your browser not to load the mobile versions of websites, and view it in your browser.

[–]Fearchen 1 point2 points ago

More like: make it available in every country! Fucking WMG.

[–]BowenMarsh 17 points18 points ago

Your video was such a huge inspiration for me to learn the art of the Knee years ago. Shame that Brawl nerfed the shit out of the Knee and Falcon in general. Nevertheless, Falcon remains the manlinest of the fighters.

[–]Concussi0n 4 points5 points ago

The manliest of anything.

I don't know why we don't start using Captain Falcon as the new chuck norris.

[–]GentlemanPlusScholar 3 points4 points ago

Wow. I had no idea there was this much time and energy spent in learning and perfecting this move. This is fucking amazing.

[–]gryts 1 point2 points ago

Did you not play ssbm?! Every character is an art =O

[–]AstorSapolsky 4 points5 points ago

You are a legend sir, love the Escape Series and Guitar Hero video back when I frequented Newgrounds!

[–]Afro-Ninja 9 points10 points ago

thanks! I still make stuff, just not as much recently :(

[–]prototype666 51 points52 points ago

Combo #156: Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee Knee...

[–]SonicFlash01 51 points52 points ago

"I turned to the instruction manual for help"
PRO.

[–]natetan 45 points46 points ago

Why did I just watch the whole thing.

[–]juli0o12 15 points16 points ago

Because knees are awesome.

[–]iamdehf[S] 32 points33 points ago

nice, I wish I was better with him when I was a youngin. Good smashers held a lot of respect among my friends and this video shows his bad assery towards 3:30.

[–]cinnamonandgravy 5 points6 points ago

not all smashes with the same move are equal, not by a long shot.

all about the timing - hitting that pinnacle.

[–]kidvulpes 4 points5 points ago

What's better than two knees? Weenies. nyuk nyuk

[–]relevant_farside 977 points978 points ago

[–]Zuken 208 points209 points ago

I'm really not sure how you do it.

[–]Shardwing 144 points145 points ago

relevant_farside is in fact the product of decades of AI research. Decades.

[–]oobey 9 points10 points ago

The need to be amused and entertained was once satisfied by Gary Larson. Now we can implement the same functionality with data-mining algorithms.

[–]atimholt 72 points73 points ago

He's Gary Larson and this is a new comic.

[–]psiphre 28 points29 points ago

i can't not upvote you. i loved the far side. i grew up with it.

[–]NoBromo1 33 points34 points ago

I'm loving watching your ascent to reddit stardom throughout the night.

[–]scarecrow_275 31 points32 points ago

Please respect the author's wishes to not post his content on the internet.

[–]Humble_harpdarp 15 points16 points ago

Yeah, that's probably not gonna happen. Karma to be farmed.

[–]liesforliars 1 point2 points ago

We're witnessing the birth of one of reddit's finest novelty accounts. I applaud you. Keep it up.

[–]BuckeyeBentley 143 points144 points ago

This was in the last Cpt Falcon thread, and I think it needs posted for those who haven't seen it. The Best Ultimate Falcon Match ever

[–]jjremy 60 points61 points ago

I love how dedicated they were to doing the taunt chorus.

[–]seamouse 7 points8 points ago

They even improv'd a brief vocal solo for each Falcon in one of the choruses.

*Edit: And, of course, the call and response.

[–]NoodleWorm64 27 points28 points ago

I've never seen this. That was amazing.

[–]Chevron 24 points25 points ago

I'm rather embarrassed at how long it took me to figure out why they were all taunting at the same time.

[–]robin_pecknold 3 points4 points ago

I still don't know why...

[–]Chevron 10 points11 points ago

Listen to the background music.

[–]robin_pecknold 5 points6 points ago

Ahhh this is why I should not listen to other music while youtubing.

[–]djperry 5 points6 points ago

This has made my night without a doubt, and I'm not even upset about that.

[–]buckyboy2009 23 points24 points ago

Here's the YouTube video, in case anyone was wondering.

[–]Particleking 55 points56 points ago

Apparantly this man has Lance Armstrongs other testicle.

[–]reddit858 22 points23 points ago

Too soon. RIP.

[–]OC_Slim 30 points31 points ago

I'll miss that sweet jazz.

[–]StupidButSerious 12 points13 points ago

What about the other other testicle?

[–]vteckickedin 25 points26 points ago

Lance lost that one when he lost his reputation.

[–]ZedZeeZee 14 points15 points ago

He lost his reputation to some fucking board.

He didn't lose it to the people that matter. Us.

[–]coolman333 3 points4 points ago

Hear hear!!!

[–]Kinomi 155 points156 points ago

Still had 2 lives. There would have been virtually no consequence had he missed.

[–]DrPeacemaker 173 points174 points ago

There would have been a serious consequence.

We wouldn't have seen this awesome gif.

[–]czarchastic 34 points35 points ago

Indeed, consequences would never be the same.

[–]gu1d3b0t 12 points13 points ago

except the lost time. Nismojoe does play against the clock, that's the entire point of his event 51 series of videos.

[–]BlockBLX 33 points34 points ago

Not to mention Giga Bowser's fucking HUGE and damn near impossible to miss.

[–]Pha3drus 6 points7 points ago

That's not regular bowser, that's giga-bowser. 103% damage on giga is nothing

[–]bigmeech 35 points36 points ago

yeah this isn't special plz get this off the front page, front page is reserved for wombo level plays only.

[–]italia06823834 9 points10 points ago

This should appease you. (Last one is very similar to OP's gif.)

[–]Arizzletron 151 points152 points ago

If I were to try this, it would most likely look something like this, but in SSBM graphics.

[–]Berlusconi 55 points56 points ago

How long have you been waiting to use that gif?

[–]learntofart 26 points27 points ago

This is Arizzletron in their childhood.

[–]IFUCKINGLOVEMETH 1 point2 points ago

If you were to adopt kittens, they would look like this.

[–]Zuken 60 points61 points ago

YES

[–]Deerskin 31 points32 points ago

SHOW ME YOUR MOVES

[–]farfle10 6 points7 points ago

TO

[–]Dammapada 5 points6 points ago

YEAH

[–]HYPERNATURL 10 points11 points ago

HHEEURRRYYAAAHH

[–]ZombyDyno 1 point2 points ago

FALCOWWWN

[–]Thejurok 14 points15 points ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXgpGBbh5r8

For the unenlightened of super smash bros.

[–]isaypwnsj00 7 points8 points ago

i'm really happy that people still love and play melee competitively. even though this may be TAS, this type of skill and mastery of c. falcon exists/has existed at the peak of the competitive scene of smash bros. melee. and i love the comments referencing the famous homemadewaffles-announced wombo combo video that was oh so many years ago. melee is now an 11 year old game but the feel of it will always be fresh in my mind. when brawl came out, many of the melee tourneyfags were disappointed with it. i for one thought it was a fun game to play... just for foolin' and messin' around. i am aware that brawl is played competitively... and many people do enjoy it. yes, brawl is a good game. but compared to melee? it most definitely is not.

on a side-note, i have a group of friends who do still play melee competitively. we are based in so-cal and you can find us on smashboards. we aren't pro or anything... (dbr king/zelgadis/isai? lol) but we do like to play.

[–]SavinThatBacon 6 points7 points ago

Balls. This man has all of them.

[–]Walesa 7 points8 points ago

I'm glad to finally see something about SSBM on the front page.

[–]Awesomenchilada9 26 points27 points ago

FALCON PUNCH!

-Captain Falcon

[–]SavinThatBacon 31 points32 points ago

*Falcawn PAWNCH!

[–]learntofart 13 points14 points ago

[–]hyperhopper 9 points10 points ago

Wtf could possibly be the context on that?

[–]EvenStranger 4 points5 points ago

This is called the sacred combo. The holiest of combos

[–]Hurriquake 16 points17 points ago

fuckng fuck i'm drunk right now

[–]s1thl0rd 4 points5 points ago

This takes me back. My sophomore year was spent with a competitive SSBM player as a roommate. All I would hear while doing homework was Fox's stupid lasers and hexagon shield. Very nostalgic.

[–]NICKisICE 4 points5 points ago

The fact that, not only did SSBM make it to the front page, but the top comment thread is relevant to the competitive community brought a small tear of joy to my eye.

[–]jamminblue 4 points5 points ago

I've played super smash brothers only briefly, can someone explain what is happening?

[–]ManInTehMirror 3 points4 points ago

Why there is no r/smash, I will never know.

[–]MankeyManksyo 2 points3 points ago

Why does he have a pistol on his hip and never uses it? That'ss my question

[–]rojano17 3 points4 points ago

Where the fuck is Ron Swanson?

[–]EggoBatman 2 points3 points ago

I've never really been able to enjoy any fighting game besides Melee because of how freaking good it is. Every time I do find a pretty fun game it just makes me wish I was playing Melee. First world problems, I suppose.

[–]jonjb4 3 points4 points ago

There is no Ron Swanson here!

[–]Sylocat 5 points6 points ago

[–]FatGirlAntaganizer 7 points8 points ago

I always won Event 51 with jiggly puff, and essentially just fall asleep in front of them. I always won.

[–]betafish37 10 points11 points ago

One does not simply survive a falcon punch.

[–]HandsomeSloth 5 points6 points ago

[–]YouJellyFish 0 points1 point ago

The repostiest repost of repostedness

[–]ipslne 2 points3 points ago

I fucking miss this game.

[–]MN_MilkPlus 2 points3 points ago

The best of games.

[–]EFalcon 2 points3 points ago

My favorite thing about Capt. Falcon is that my last name is Falcon.

[–]The_Mighty_Spork 2 points3 points ago

Personally my favorite move was in brawl, using king dedede to suck them up then jump off the edge. Used to love doing it when we're both on our last life to cause a draw.

[–]iamsothecoolest 2 points3 points ago

One of my absolute favorite games ever. All of the wonderful cutthroat gameplay when playing with my siblings.

[–]Mic1389 2 points3 points ago

I've been playing this game since it debuted in 2001. To this day I still regularly boot it up to play competitively with friends. It amazes me how it never gets old.

[–]Naxadas 1 point2 points ago

lol, i can hear the sound of "Falcon Punch" even though there is none :D

[–]diz-z 1 point2 points ago

NOW YOU'RE A MAN (MAN!) A MANLY MANLY MAN

[–]ja_14 1 point2 points ago

LLLEEEEERRRROOOOOYYYY JJJEEENNNNNKKKKIINNNSSSS

[–]Darklight18818 1 point2 points ago

I thought Kamina was the manliest man of manliness

[–]jorgen_mcbjorn 1 point2 points ago

This is known as the Sacred Combo: Falcon's Forward Aerial (i.e., "The Knee") to Falcon Punch. Obviously, since it incorporates the Falcon Punch, this is only used as a joke or to show off in a real match.

[–]yuloforce 1 point2 points ago

I expected to see Saxton Hale